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Around SBN: Upon Further Review: Bo Knows Longreads

A Brief Historical Look at Lincecum

I was running through BB-Ref's awesome PI index this morning for fun and I came accross some interesting numbers on Tim Lincecum*. So, I thought I'd share them with McC.

*Note, this isn't a TIM IS BETTER THAN MATT post, so don't take it that way. Both are very good pitchers.

I love looking at historical numbers like this. I'm blown away by the amount of innings that guys like Christy Mathewson threw. Of course the baseball environment in which Mathewson played was radically different than it is today, or in any era, but throwing 390.2 innings in a season is cool to think about.

Tim Lincecum had another very, very solid performance. Lincecum’s final line was:

8 IP, 5 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 4 BB, 8 SO

Tim lowered his ERA to 2.68 and raised his ERA+ to 160. Among all major league pitchers with at least 140 innings pitched and ranked by ERA+, Tim is currently 4th. Only Cliff Lee, Danny Haren, and Carlos Zambrano have had better years. If the season ended right now, Linecum’s ERA+ would be good enough to place him 5th all-time since 1956 for Giants starters. Think about how amazing that is. Those four guys in front of him?

Cnt    Player    **ERA+**   IP  Year Age
+----+-----------+------+-----+----+---+
1 Jason Schmidt 179 207.2 2003 30
2 Juan Marichal 169 295.1 1965 27
3 Juan Marichal 168 299.2 1969 31
4 Juan Marichal 167 307.1 1966 28

If you ranked Giants pitchers since 1956 by ERA+ who were 24-years-old or younger and who threw at least 140 innings.

Cnt    Player      **ERA+** IP   Year Age
+----+------------+------+-----+----+---+
1 Tim Lincecum 160 157.2 2008 24
2 Bob Knepper 131 260 1978 24
3 Shawn Estes 130 201 1997 24
4 Mike McCormick 129 253 1960 21
5 Jim Barr 123 179 1972 24

Since 1956, Tim Lincecum is having the best season of any young Giants pitcher, ever. Bob Knepper went 17-11 in 1978. We’ve got a Shawn Estes sighting for his 1997 All-Star season. Mike McCormick and Jim Barr are also well known Giants pitchers. Let’s increase our range and go from 1876-2008 and look at the Giants franchise. Same parameters of innings pitched, age, and ranked by ERA+

Cnt    Player      **ERA+** IP   Year Age
+----+------------+------+-----+----+---+
1 Christy Mathewson 230 338.2 1905 24
2 Amos Rusie 189 444 1894 23
3 Johnny Antonelli 177 258.2 1954 24
4 Jeff Tesreau 173 243 1912 24
5 Tim Lincecum 160 157.2 2008 24
6 Hal Schumacher 148 258.2 1933 22
7 Christy Mathewson 147 366.1 1903 22
8 Amos Rusie 144 482 1893 22
9 Christy Mathewson 138 336 1901 20
10 Rube Marquard 134 277.2 1911 24

Christy Mathewson, greatest young Giants pitcher, ever? Lincecum’s having a good year, but I don’t think he’s going to catch Mathewson’s 230 ERA+ 1905 season. In fact, Mathewson makes this list 3 times. He’s also the youngest player in our top-10 of young greats. At the tender age of 20 Mathewson went 20-17 with a 2.41 ERA. Johnny Antonelli is an interesting player. He debuted in 1948 as an 18-year-old with the Boston Braves. In 1954, he was traded from the Milwaukee Braves along with Billy Klaus, Don Liddle, Ebba St. Claire — great baseball name — and cash to the New York Giants for Bobby Thompson and Sam Calderone. In that ‘54 season Antonelli went 21-7 with a 2.30 ERA. For those looking for Matt Cain, his 2007 season at age 22 places him 26th on this list.

Our list is rounded out with Amos Rusie, Jeff Tesreau, Hal Schumacher, and Rube Marquard (another great baseball name). Regardless of where Lincecum ends up in Giants history, it’s amazing how well he’s done in such a short time.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Comments

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A Brief History of Tim

By Stephen Hawking

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 7:57 AM PDT reply actions  

Dang you’re right. Sharksrog wrote the book, not Stephen Hawking.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hawking up a LOOGY?

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Aug 7, 2008 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions  

That book has WAY too many exclamation points.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 7, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

A few problems…

ERA+ isn’t the end all and be all of pitching analysis. Better minds than mind have designed metrics that far surpass it and do a better job of assigning credit to offense prevented across era and parks.

The analysis also falls down a bit on being restricted to just the Giants. For one thing, there’s seemingly been a historical bias by the Giants of loading up on hitting and letting the pitching sort itself out. For another, the Giants pitchers of the past had to contend with some damned wacky ballparks.

Yeah, Timmeh’s real good this year, but the year isn’t over. Simple bad luck in 4 or 5 starts the rest of the way and he looks only as good as Estes. But I’m going to go ahead and coin a phrase for when I do an “In Praise of St. Tim” fanpost… hagiometry.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Aug 7, 2008 8:54 AM PDT reply actions  

ERA+ isn’t the end all and be all of pitching analysis. Better minds than mind have designed metrics that far surpass it and do a better job of assigning credit to offense prevented across era and parks.

No one said it was. Find me a database on which I can run a query on using a better metric, and I’ll do it. ERA+ is usefull because you can use it to compare across eras, that’s why I used it.

The analysis also falls down a bit on being restricted to just the Giants. For one thing, there’s seemingly been a historical bias by the Giants of loading up on hitting and letting the pitching sort itself out. For another, the Giants pitchers of the past had to contend with some damned wacky ballparks.

How does it fall down when I’m interested in how Lincecum has performed as a Giant, as compared to the sample of other Giants pitchers? I’ve never heard of such a historical bias, link me to an article or something, I’m always willing to learn.

Yeah, Timmeh’s real good this year, but the year isn’t over. Simple bad luck in 4 or 5 starts the rest of the way and he looks only as good as Estes. But I’m going to go ahead and coin a phrase for when I do an "In Praise of St. Tim" fanpost… hagiometry.

Sure, that’s the caveat of “if the year ended now”

by xanthan on Aug 7, 2008 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

1. Database = Lahman + learn to code. Or always have to use what other people do for you.

2a. Because the very few good seasons by Giants starters were already pretty freaking obvious, because there were so few of them. Broaden the scope (or see #1 and come up with something less obvious).

2b. “Seemingly” as in “an impression”. Think, hmm… “Giants pitchers with multiple great years since the deadball era?” Answer: Marichal. “Giants hitters with multiple great years since the deadball era?” Answer: Well, Bonds and Mays and McCovey and Ott and Terry and there’s more if you stretch “great” a little.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Aug 7, 2008 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

These are amazing points you bring to this discussion. Thanks for sharing.

Do you have a newsletter that I can subscribe to?

by xanthan on Aug 7, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you can’t deal with the fact that your contributions won’t be met with universal acclaim, you might want to stay off the internet.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Aug 7, 2008 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Dude, you’re picking some pretty inconsequential nits.

xanthan’s point was never to make a comprehensive dissertation on Lincecum’s definitive place in MLB history. He was just trying to use a convenient, and a fairly useful metric, to paint a picture of Lincecum’s accomplishments as a Giant.

What’s the point of criticizing something for not being something else when it was never either trying to be or pretending to be something else?

I think anyone with half a brain can draw their conclusions about what this means. One look at the name “Shawn Estes” on those lists should be enough to make any self-respecting Giants fan understand the limits of evaluating one good season. It doesn’t make it any less of an interesting diversion.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 7, 2008 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Howie gets it.

I almost feel bad now for making fun of your jokes!

by xanthan on Aug 7, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

1st in FIP and 1st in Pitching Runs Created, too.

THT metrics love the Matt Cain, too.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 7, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

my bad,

2nd in FIP and 2nd in PRC. I had the NL filter on for some reason.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 7, 2008 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

He’s also first in the NL in VORP among pitchers.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 7, 2008 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Let’s do the Tim VORP, again!

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 7, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

And a step to the right!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 7, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

GEEZ STOP BEING MEAN TO MATT CAIN YOU STAT NERD.

(good post.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 7, 2008 10:18 AM PDT reply actions  

third best historical look at Lincecum

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 7, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

at best?

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

WHATS HAPPENING IN HERE.

Quick, someone shine the Sharksrog symbol! He’ll save us all…

by xanthan on Aug 7, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry, they smashed the sharksrog symbol to pieces in the trailer. It’s not a spoiler if it’s in the trailer.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 7, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Those bastards! I’m laughing now because I’m thinking of sharksrog with a really gruff voice going: I’M SHARKSROG

by xanthan on Aug 7, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

After having met him this made me LOL. Mostly because of the Cal Trans orange Giants shirt he wore at dinner last week.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

PRAY TO TIM!!!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 7, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's simple

Kill the sharksrog

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

this mesageboard deserves a better brand of poster…and Baron’s gonna give it to them…

by tyrannoman on Aug 7, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s not about writing a message… it’s about sending a message.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 7, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

I'm voting no

I’m voting no on this kill the SharksRog thing. :)

by sharksrog on Aug 8, 2008 7:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Wanna know how I got these scars? I insulted Timmy.

Only 863 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 7, 2008 2:29 PM PDT reply actions  

ERA+

I think everyone knows there is nothing I would rather discuss than Tim Lincecum, but herre I would like to ask a question.

An early comment here dissed ERA+, which I have long considered to be about as good a way of measuring pitchers over different eras (almost a pun). In a given season, ERA can be misleading, so I like to also see things such as FIP. As an example, I felt Tim - You knew I had to get back to him, right? - pitched better than his ERA indicated. I believe his FIP was 3.56, which tended to confirm my thinking (assuming I think at all, of course).

But when comparing pitchers’ careers, I think ERA+ is pretty helpful. And I don’t know of anything better with which to compare pitchers of different eras. I am curious as to others’ thoughts on this.

As a side note, I just happened to look again at Pedro Martinez’s ERA+ numbers from 1997 through 2003. They lead me to believe that Pedro had the greatest peak of any pitcher, even better than Koufax (or even Walter Johnson or Lefty Grove). Pedro’s LOWEST ERA+ during those seven consecutive years was 163. His LOWEST. In Pedro’s WORST season in that seven-year stretch, he was Tim Lincecum.

In five of the seven years Pedro exceeded 200, which has been done only 34 times in history. Only 34 times, and Pedro did it in five of seven years. Pedro’s 291 ERA+ from 2000 IIRC is the highest of the 20th or 21st centuries, even higher than the 258 of Bob Gibson when Gibby set the ERA record of 1.12 in 1968. (Tying in with this post on great Giants pitchers, Gibby broke the record of 1.14 set by Christy Mathewson.)

Incidentally, in addition to the 163 ERA+ and the five 200+ seasons, Pedro’s other season just missed 200 at 189.

When comparing young pitchers to the career records of others, one should remember that pitchers have a decline phase in which their career ERA+ almost always decreases. Pedro was just over 170 in career ERA+, but I see his health struggles of the past few seasons have dropped him to 157, which is still the highest of anyone aside from Mariano Rivera, who benefits from much shorter outings.

Still, I am impressed that Tim’s career ERA+ is 131, the same as Koufax. And Matt Cain’s ERA+ is 119, in between Juan Marichal’s 123 and Gaylord Perry’s 117.

Going back to Koufax, Sandy DIDN’T have a decline period. Due to circulation concerns, he retired early, right at the height of his prime. But as a bonus baby of the 1950’s, Sandy was forced to be up in the majors immediately, well before he was ready. So Sandy’s ERA+ is limited by having to develop at the major league level.

Many old-timers will tell you Sandy was the best pitcher they ever saw. Personally I think that guy (for peak) is Pedro. For career, I’d probably have to go with Roger Clemens.

For the future, I’m going with Tim Lincecum!

Oh,and did I mention I’m voting no on this kill SharksRog thing? :)

by sharksrog on Aug 8, 2008 8:18 AM PDT reply actions  

Hey Sharksrog,

You’re right that ERA+ has a problem on that it’s based around ERA, which is a lousy way to evaluate pitchers. I’d love to see a FIP+ or something like that. ERA+ does a couple of things that makes it a little better than ERA (adjusting to league average and park).

It’s a decent measure for careers, as you stated, and it’s got the benefit of being really easy to understand.

You’re also dead on about Pedro, one of my favorite pitchers ever and his run from ‘97-’03 is one of the most dominant runs in baseball history. He was pitching in a high scoring environment and dominating hitters like it was the deadball era, truly amazing.

And no way anyone could ever kill the Sharksrog.

by xanthan on Aug 8, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

So nice

So nice of you to say, Xanthan. And you’re right. If this year’s Giants can’t kill me, I’m not sure anything can. :)

by sharksrog on Aug 8, 2008 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Incidentally

Incidentally, you are correct that Christy Mathewson was pitching even better than Tim Lincecum at the same age. But with regard to how they did in their second seasons (Christy was two or three years younger than Tim.), Tim is right with both Christy and with King Carl Hubbell, the best right-hander and the best left-hander in Giants history.

I think Tim will be right up there with Carl, but he will need to improve his control considerably to catch up to Christy. Tim HAS cut his walk rate in half over the past three years. If he did so again the next three seasons, he could become the best pitcher in history—which is pretty close to what Christy is (perhaps being behind only Walter Johnson and Cy Young).

by sharksrog on Aug 8, 2008 9:39 PM PDT reply actions  

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