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Screed

Ah, pitch counts. I meant to do a post next week on Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain leading the league in pitches thrown, but Bruce Jenkins's series on pitch counts made the topic current. Jenkins and I can agree on a couple of things, such as...

But when you have a young, healthy starter and you're making distinctions between 110 and 120 pitches, you've driven way off the road.

I agree. The difference between 110 and 120 pitches? Who knows? There isn't conclusive evidence that 120 is measurably worse than 110 or 100, so passing either of those arbitrary benchmarks shouldn't make anyone froth at the mouth. Jenkins doesn't want managers to be seduced by 100 pitches simply because it's a nice round number. Again, I completely agree. How tired is a pitcher? You can't tell that from a single number. Context, context, context.

But even though Jenkins wants to base his entire argument around context, the entire article breaks down because context isn't taken into account. Jenkins rails against some shadowy cabal of bespectacled nerds for daring to question the decision to leave C.C. Sabathia in for 130 pitches, but the raw number isn't what caused the most dissent. No one made a peep when Sabathia threw 122 pitches in a one-run victory against the Reds.

The loudest moaning was reserved for the fact that the Brewers were up by six runs going into the eighth inning. Jenkins brings up Mark Prior, noting that it was alright for Prior to throw 120+ pitches every night because the Cubs were going for it. But that wouldn't explain what Prior was still doing in this game. No, there's a much better reason why teams should let young pitchers like Sabathia and Prior rack up huge pitch counts when outcome of the game isn't in question:

Teeth-gritting gumption points.

Didn't you hear? They award a special trophy for teeth-gritting gumption points. Pitchers who accrue the most teeth-gritting gumption points can look their grandkids in the eyes. That's why Jenkins's entire argument revolves around "finish what you start" and blaming people who "have no idea how it feels to actually compete."* His argument doesn't revolve around research, like that of The Hardball Times, who noted that pitchers are still getting hurt in a pitch-conscious era. Jenkins doesn't draw our attention to the Reliever's Paradox -- if pitch counts are the last word, then why do 20-pitch-per game lefty specialists also fall to injury? Jenkins doesn't ask how 100 pitches -- a number that's significant only because it has one more digit than 99 -- became an arbitrary-yet-magical number.

Nope. Teeth-gritting gumption points. Gutting it out. Making sure you out-platitude the other guy. Don't be a sissy, sissy. Learn how to win. Kids these days, I'll tell you. Spoiled divas, the lot of them. That's what's wrong with the cautious mindset of the modern baseball man.

The argument goes something like this: Pitchers should throw as many pitches as they used to because a) that's how they used to do it, and b) remember when that was how they used to do it? Jenkins invokes the Ozzy Osbourne Defense. Hey, Ozzy used to snort piles of cocaine the size of Marvin Benard. But Ozzy's still alive, right? Ergo, nuts to moderation with that stuff. Jenkins lists pitchers like Mike Krukow (who went from 10 complete games to five wins the next year), Fernando Valenzuela (who went from 12 complete games to five wins the next year), and Dave Stewart (who went from 10 complete games to an ERA above 5.00) as examples of a purer era gone by.

Did the complete games cause the eventual ineffectiveness of those pitchers? Maybe, maybe not. And that's the point. The great pitch-count debate is stagnant for now. Every pitcher has a limit, but we don't know what that limit is. It probably shifts from game to game, from inning to inning. But there's a $50M difference between a healthy Matt Cain and a free agent like Carlos Silva, and that doesn't even take performance into account. Even if you want to go to the store and buy a new, full-price young ace if  the one you have breaks down, there might not be a comparable pitcher to buy. Every arm probably has a finite number of pitches in it, so maybe discretion is the better part of valor when it comes to a prized investment. If your bullpen isn't good enough to trust with a two-run lead in the eighth, it probably isn't part of a championship team, so don't let your starter throw 120 pitches every...single...game if you can avoid it.

Even with that general guideline, there should be a few reasons to ignore pitch counts. If the playoffs are on the line, your bullpen is a hydrant filled with kerosene, and the starter in question doesn't seem tired, then, yeah, toss out the book. Go for the win. There isn't conclusive evidence that x number of pitches thrown is automatically tantamount to rotator cuff pudding. Use common sense. Sabathia heading toward 130 pitches in a one-run game? I'm not wild about the idea, but if Sabathia feels fine, heads shouldn't roll for the decision.

But here are some poor reasons for tossing out pitch counts: outdated notions of duty, toughness, or cowardice. Doing it because you can, because there's something oh-so-special about the complete game that transcends any notion of prudence. Sabathia heading toward 130 pitches with a seven-run lead? Now you're just gunning for teeth-gritting gumption points.

So, you, with the flashing siren of panic that goes off every time a pitcher goes over 100 pitches: go away. You, with the appeal to the good ol' days and meaningless notions of toughness: go away. Both extremes of the debate need to go away. The rest of us will watch baseball and understand that there's a balance of risk versus reward. It's a balance that will have to do until some compelling evidence comes along and settles the debate.

* The "but you don't play the game!"-argument is always lame, but it's especially lame coming from a sportswriter. I could strike Jenkins out on three pitches. That doesn't mean I have the better argument. You don't need to be an aardvark to major in zoology.

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Jenkins Part II

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/26/SPJV122RC3.DTL

Grant, you might like this better. Operative word “might”.

P.S. Can you delete my fanshot on this?

by giantsrainman on Aug 26, 2008 11:11 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can delete your own Fanshots/posts.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Aug 26, 2008 11:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks, I Didn't Know

Do you know what is wrong with my links here?

by giantsrainman on Aug 26, 2008 11:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The SB Nation code is pretty picky with what it decides to convert to a link. Your best bet is to paste the link, select it, and click the link button (next to the picture of the tree above the comment box) to post the link.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Aug 26, 2008 11:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

<a href=" http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/26/SPJV122RC3.DTL " >Do it like this

by bondslegend on Aug 26, 2008 11:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How Do You Do This

In a comment. I don’t seem to have this option.

by giantsrainman on Aug 26, 2008 11:35 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You copy the link you want from your browser, then look above the comment box- there’s bold, italic, strike thru, quote, and the next one is link. HIghlight the part of your comment you want to be the link, then click on the link button, then paste the URL you copied, then click submit. Like this.

by bondslegend on Aug 27, 2008 10:24 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Anagram of "knowing how to win"

WOW, I KNOW NOTHING

Anagram of "Giants pitcher Matt Cain" = TRAGIC MAN, ISN'T PATHETIC

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Aug 26, 2008 11:37 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That might be my favorite anagram of the entire time we’ve been doing anagrams. Even better than AGED AND SAD PENIS (I think that’s right) or something about Matt Morris having a dead Latin arm.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 27, 2008 12:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you're reading Bruce Jenkins?

Put the Comicle down and back away slowly.

by wcw on Aug 26, 2008 11:37 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is what I see

You’re arguing against the article you expected to read, knowing that it’s that idiot Jenkins and it’s about pitch counts.

In reality, I was surprised that he did make an appropriate nod to pitch counts, and came up with a lot more ways to tell if a pitcher is losing it rather than just assume that the yardstick of the old days automatically applies.

"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002

by achiappanza on Aug 26, 2008 11:44 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Grant’s arguing against the article I read. Jenkins certainly had a good point but it was buried in a big pile of lazy, dishonest “analysis” and geek quips.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 26, 2008 11:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What I really loved....

…was hearing Ralph Barbierri’s views on the pitch count subject this afternoon while he was interviewing Jenkins. Not surprisingly, Ralph used all the extreme arguments you mentioned.

Oh, and the guy just can’t let got of Lincecum’s July 26th start where he ONLY threw 121 pitches in seven innings. If Ralph were the manager, Lincecum would have thrown 150 pitches if that is what it took to get a CG win. Hooray for team pride and grit!

by Squire_Boone on Aug 26, 2008 11:52 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I told you this was a great, well thought-out post, would you accuse me of group think?

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Aug 27, 2008 12:24 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Either that or something that has a similar spelling/sound.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 27, 2008 12:31 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So I admit...

I used to watch the Last Honest Sports Show.

Jenkins used to appear on there. Maybe I have made a mistake, but did he always look like this

I remembered him looking older and skinnier/wrinklier.

by kwyjibo on Aug 27, 2008 12:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh, so this is where we post groupthink jokes

I was wondering.

Didn’t want to post a joke out of place.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 10:45 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Think grope is better imho.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jenkins' routine

Jenkins columns allow the Chron’s owners and editors to check a box on their to do list: “find simple-minded neanderthal to write about ‘doing things the right way’ and ‘having what it takes’ and ‘what nobody but me understands’ and the ‘essense’ and ‘beauty’ and ‘nature’ of the game, whatever game that is.”

He doesn’t need to know what he’s talking about, because he can tell what’s going on by looking into the eyes of some slow, fat, usually white guy who just intuitively plays the game (whichever game we’re talking about) right.

I read him for my weekly dose of journalistic car-wreck.

bringing you moral turpitude since 1963

by Idaho Nick on Aug 27, 2008 3:48 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hopefully this Jenkins’ series can produce a good FJM soon…

Fairley odd parent to Wendell

by WTF on Aug 27, 2008 7:53 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I find it amazing...

How little – on both sides of this argument – the concept of the “high stress inning” comes up. Forget the gross total of pitches, five 20-pitch innings take more out of an arm than eight 13-pitch innings.

by Dailey247 on Aug 27, 2008 8:05 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not disagreeing with you

Or agreeing with you. I’m just stating that I see no obvious reason why a “high stress inning” is worse than a couple of low stress ones.

It’s not as if the pitcher throws the ball any softer in the low stress innings. The body goes through the same movements regardless of the “stress” of the inning.

I fail to see why this would matter.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 8:20 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But that's not true.

All the studies on the subject say that as a pitcher labors thru a long inning, his mechanics start to slip as he tires, potentially leading to injuries.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 8:36 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm just asking

Does a guy really get more tired throwing 20 pitches in 10 consecutive minutes than 20 pitches in two 5 minute chunks separated by 5 minutes?

Possibly, I suppose.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:26 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's how exercise works

It’s harder to do 20 straight pushups than go 10 pushups – 5 minute rest – 10 pushups.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 27, 2008 11:29 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes and no

It’s not necessarily the cumulative tiredness we’re concerned with here. If you labor and throw 30 pitches in an inning, it’s possible/conceivable/likely that your mechanics will get sloppy by the end, possibly leading/contributing to an injury/

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 11:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then the answer is simple

Take a page from the Dodger’s playbook and take 3 minutes between pitches with men on base.

Also, get a better offense, to get the pitcher more rest between innings.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 27, 2008 8:52 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One thing,

going through the same motions doesn’t mean that work is the same: Newton’s laws of motion, first and second laws.

Force == Mass * Acceleration.
Work == Force * Distance.
Power == Work / unit time

If a pitcher has to throw harder, to “reach back”, to get through that inning, he IS doing more work.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 8:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

also, from my experience, it was always much harder to pitch out of the stretch than the wind-up, and i think most pitchers would agree. from the stretch, you lost a lot of the power from your legs since you’re concerned about being quicker to the plate to prevent base-runners from collecting easy steals. you end up getting more velocity from your arm and it really tires you out. so i do believe in the curse of the “high-stress inning”. lots of pitches from the stretch is not good.

by cornball on Aug 27, 2008 10:24 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you’re talking about two different things.

Yes, trying to deliver the ball in a hurry makes the body work less and the arm work more, but that’s because of the situation (runners on) not the delivery from the stretch, per se.

Taking the “rushed delivery” out of the equation, the windup and stretch are bascially the same delivery with different preludes. The forward motion doesn’t begin until the point where a RHP’s knee is raised and his momentum “falls” toward the plate. Everything that happens prior to that is incidental and the reason a lot of pitching gurus preach pitching soley out of the stretch. The windup might create body timing to get everything in the right place at the right time, but it doesn’t create power since it’s not creating any forward momentum.. It would be like saying, I run faster if I run backward before I start running forward.

Many pitchers practice more out of the windup, so it feels more comfortable. I’m convinced that Lincecum’s early struggles from the stretch were due to him rarely having to up until that point.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 10:58 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that should say “RHP’s left knee”

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 10:58 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

putting the "rush delivery" back into the equation

I’ve heard arguments that pitchers are much less deliberate out of the stretch than they were in the 70’s and eighties, hence the death of the stolen base.

If quickening the delivery does cause extra stress, and pitchers really have quickened their deliveries, it could justify a more conservative approach to managing pitchers.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 27, 2008 8:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, I know this

I thought it was implicit in my statement that the same pitches are thrown regardless of whether or not the inning is a long one or otherwise, hence the same strain on the body.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:26 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Same pitches AND same number of pitches?

If the intensity is the same, but your volume is higher, ie, longer inning, throwing more pitches, more work IS done.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:33 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

But if you throw 100 pitches divided by 5 innings or 9 innings, and the selection of pitches is the same, then the same work is done.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:36 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

rest is another issue.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Common sense.

100 pitches over 5 innings means the pitches come in a shorter time frame. Over 8 innings, the pitcher gets approx 30 more minutes (3 half-innings worth) of time to recover.

What’s more tiring; running 5 miles in a row or running a mile, taking a 15 minute break, running a mile, taking a 15 minute break, …

by Matthew on Aug 27, 2008 11:17 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Depends whether you’re smoking cigarettes, drinking beer and having sex during the breaks.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 11:20 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you’re not, then what’s the point of even taking a break?

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 27, 2008 11:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 11:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"and" Hmm, all three at the same time, huh?

You take much better breaks than I do.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If that were the case, my breaks would only need about 10 minutes.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 27, 2008 1:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is it that drastic, however?

I understand that in the extremes this makes sense.

I would argue that 5 miles in a row Vs. 5 individual miles separated by 15 minute breaks is not a valid comparison.

Also, as a former long distance runner, I would MUCH rather run 5 miles in a row than 5 individual miles separated by 15 minutes. Those 15 minute cool downs will fuck you up bad.

Throwing 100 pitches over 1 hour vs throwing 100 pitches over 2 hours ? Yeah, maybe – I’m not a doctor nor do I have personal experience from which to speak.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's a HUGE body of research in sports science

that shows that resting, as long the rest period isn’t too long, between reps, allows an athlete to work harder in those reps / have it easier in those reps.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:36 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm sure

Like I said, I’m not trying to be a keyboard expert on this – just putting some ideas out there.

I could see justification that a longer inning is more tiring on the pitcher, and as a result his mechanics begin to suffer leading to damage.

The first thing to go in any activity w/ fatigue is form/mechanics. Huge problem in swimming.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:38 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Distance running might not be the best comparison, but I think the point is valid. Recovery is a big part of athletic performance. Sometimes a pitching coach goes out just to give a pitcher a little recovery time if he’s in the middle of a high pitch inning.

If I ran four 50 yard dashes with 10 minutes breaks, I’d be in better shape to keep competing and have a better combined time than if I’d run one 440.

Keep in mind, breaks aren’t just for muscle and areobic recovery. You also get a chance to re-hydrate and cool-down in the shade on a hot day.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 11:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something worth mentioning

Is that damage due to over-use in terms of pitchers is, AFAIK, not muscle-fatigue related (which is something we are most familiar with as amateur athletes).

Instead, it is the result of repeated forces trying to separate the joints in the arm and shoulder.

These forces are generated by the muscles, obviously – but the pitchers arm is just a long for the ride.

Yank on those tendons too much, and they start to sustain damage. That is the problem w/ pitching over use as I understand it.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:42 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I Agree

My issue is that no one is doing enough to understand how this varies from individual to individual and trying to fugure out how the boundries of risk varies from individual to indivual.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 11:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, you don't know that.

My point is just that it’s not as much an issue of “My muscles don’t feel tired, so I must be fine to pitch” as it is your tendons & ligaments are being damaged by the force of your muscles, which may feel just fine.

FWIW, I over-used my knee junior year in high school. I was a long distance runner and we had won CCS the previous year. I was really excited about the coming season and I over trained.

I developed tendinitis in my knee, and I haven’t been able to run aggressively since.

No muscle pain, no feeling of over-exertion, etc. But my joints couldn’t handle the load I was both mentally and physically capable of subjecting them to.

It just kinda started hurting a little one day and got progressively worse. 10 years later, it hurts as I am writing this.

I kinda wish I had taken it a little easier and maybe not run so many miles that week.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:52 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Exactly. So in the meantime, teams should exercise caution. Obviously, no one is recommending that teams limit their pitchers to 50 pitches. It just so happens that 100-120 pitches coincides with a start who is effective into the 7th, and with specialized bullpens, there aren’t too many reasons to extend a pitcher repeatedly beyond that.

by Grant on Aug 27, 2008 11:53 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The essence of the argument, here

Yes 100 pitches is arbitrary. Yes, we aren’t sure when a pitcher is starting to get into problem territory, exactly. But since we don’t know, we might as well set an arbitrary limit. This is okay so long as that limit is reasonable. 100 pitches is close to a full game and is close to the problem areas for most pitchers. Seems reasonable to me.

Do you really think that managers/GM’s would just use a completely arbitrary number for no good reasons?

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:55 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

They used their best reliever in the 9th just because of a stupid stat (saves) and they do this because they are afraid of being blamed if they don’t.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 12:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

Agreeing with rainman is like being attracted to a friend’s significant other — you’re just being honest about a natural feeling, but that doesn’t mean you don’t hate yourself a little bit for it.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 27, 2008 2:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're argument is close to reality

But I would say they use the best reliever in the ninth because of a mystique about the ninth being the most difficult inning and such.

I also think that there are good reasons for this. I think it’s dumb that they are so rigid about the roles, though.

However, I disagree with your assertion that there are no good reasons for closers. There are. Just because there might be better reasons for using the relief ace in a different way, doesn’t make those good reasons disappear.

When something becomes so wide-spread as pitch counts and the closer role, there are usually good reasons; even if there are even better reasons for doing it another way.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 2:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The problem with the arbitrary limit of 100

is, pitchers are different.

By setting an arbitrary limit of 100 for everyone, you are assuming that pitchers cannot progressive increase their ability to handle higher workloads. Which is a strange assumption.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 1:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And how do you figure this stuff out?

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 2:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Figure what stuff out?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 2:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The same way they test maximum load on a bridge

Drive heavier and heavier trucks over the bridge until it falls down. Then give it Tommy John surgery.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 27, 2008 9:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So,

pitchers are not living organisms that can grow stronger, improve in response to stress?

Stress is NOT bad for athletes, despite what many “progressive” / “stathead” baseball fans think.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not arguing that pitchers can't grow in response to stress

I’m arguing that various parts of living organisms have a maximum threshold for stress beyond which they incur damage which may be irreparable without “rebuilding the bridge” via surgery (and may still result in a permanent impairment of function, like a slower fastball). That threshold can be increased over time with proper training, but it always exists, and is notoriously difficult to judge until it’s been exceeded.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 27, 2008 11:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also

That threshold varies from pitcher to pitcher., Personally, I suspect that it varies quite widely.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 27, 2008 11:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uhh,

there’s a lot of evidence from a whole host of sports of the concept of “progressive workload”.

Unless you think that baseball pitchers are not subject to the same laws as other humans, why would you believe that they cannot progressively increase their workload?

In fact, baseball teams are trying to do this nowadays. Which is why you see teams like the Yanks / RS, trying to control the workloads of their young pitchers, progressively increasing it as they mature.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, are pitchers individuals or are they all part of the same unit?

Because, if they are individuals then I would imagine that some could increase their workload at different rates than others. Some thresholds will be higher than others. Some might not even be able to do it at all.

I am perfectly happy to say that pitchers can increase their workload. But how do we know what their threshold is?

How do you figure this stuff out?

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 28, 2008 12:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well

You either make an educated guess (probably conservative, since the cost of injury is greater than the reward of a few extra IP per season), or you drive progressively heavier trucks over the bridge until it breaks.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 28, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm thinking A is the better option

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 28, 2008 12:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tendons and ligaments can also get stronger

just (much) more slowly than muscle.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:53 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How do you know that those 5 20 pitch innings

are more stressful than the eight 13 pitch innings?

In fact, why are you even lumping the 20 pitch innings together in one group, and the 13 pitch innings together in another group, in terms of “stress”?

Pitching to an offense like the Cubs, or the Rangers offense, should be more “stressful” than pitching to an offense like that of the Nationals, no?

The big problem with the current approach to regulating the workload in pitchers, is that counting pitches, ONLY measures volume. It ENTIRELY disregards intensity. A pitcher doesn’t do the same work throwing a 95 mph fastball compared to a 90 mph fastball. He doesn’t do the same work, doesn’t generate the same forces, the same power, when he throws a 88 slider, or a 90mph sinker, or a 78 mph curve.

Yet, pitch counts, and worthless pitch count based metrics like BPro’s PAP, treat every pitch as the same.

That would be like a weightlifter treating a 500 pound squat the same as a 450 squat. Or a distance runner treating a 4 minute mile as the same as a 5 minute mile.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 8:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But that intensity is basically unmeasurable, no?

by Evan on Aug 27, 2008 8:55 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For people on the outside, fans, analysts,

definitely yes, unmeasurable.

For the teams themselves, I’m not so sure. It depends on how cooperative the pitchers themselves are, how much effort and money that teams want to put into doing so. Given that teams have access to their own pitchers, they can measure, at least somewhat roughly, the forces that pitcher generates when a he throws his 95 mph fastball, when he throws his 78 mph curve, etc.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 9:22 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To clarify my last sentence

teams can do the measurements, on their own pitchers, in training, then use their numbers to approximate the in competition numbers.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 9:23 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wasn’t peterson involed in a lot of this kind of thing when he came to the A’s?
I could be mistaken still again though.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:49 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm not sure that Peterson

ever had biomechanicists coming in to measure the forces that his pitchers generated.

I’m not sure, but I don’t believe that Peterson has the background / qualifications needed to do those measurements.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This whole pitch count thing

Is really getting out of control, on both sides.

The fact is, neither Lincecum or Cain has been on a strict pitch count this season. Both have varied anywhere from ~ 100 to > 120 pitches, dependent on game situation and performance.

To say that Bochy has been blindly applying some guideline to establish when they come out of the game is completely incorrect.

The notion that monitoring pitch counts, in general, are a good idea is IMO correct. If you throw the ball too many times, your arm gets sore. Duh. Also, if you arm is starting to feel sore or tired – throwing the ball just 10 more times can REALLY hurt. It’s not linear, folks.

Go out right now and throw as many pitches as you can until your arm hurts just a little, or feels tired. As anyone who occasionally plays catch with their friends can testify, it doesn’t take too many.

Then chill out for 10 minutes, and go back and try to throw the ball 10 more times as absolutely hard as you can. Then tell me those extra 10 pitches didn’t make a difference…

Anyone who has ever lifted weights can tell you that the difference between 10 reps and 12 reps can be the difference between feeling good the next day or feeling so sore you can’t move.

I see plenty of good reasons to be careful with pitch counts, and I see plenty of reasons why 120 vs 110 pitches is a significant difference.

I also find Ralph extremely fucking annoying when it comes to this subject, and his utter lack of understanding and knowledge of baseball seriously calls into question anything else he says about other sports of which I do not know enough to question him.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 8:17 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

just to pile on a bit here...

The glaring fault I find is Bochy’s handling of Zito compared to Tim & Cain.

Seriously Zito is the 30 years old. If any one of the starters should be left out there to limp the team into the 7th or reduce the bull pens work load it him. He is suppose to be cunning enough ( see Yabu) to do that. That fact is Bochy routinely pulls him when he has pitched less then Tim or Cain. And its not like Zito has been more efficient in his use of pitches either.

 # of 110 or more pitch outings / # of 115 or more pitch outings / # of 120 ore more pitch outings

Zito 4/2/0
Tim 14/8/2
Cain 13/5/2

Just for giggles Sanchez has 3/0/0 in his first year as a starter in the MLB with only limited work on his endurance the past couple seasons. If there truly was nothing behind pitch counts then way is Zito getting treated a lot like Sanchez?

The other question is just how is this protecting your most valuable assets in the franchise?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 9:02 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think those numbers on Zito may be a bit misleading. all starters will have bad games where they are pulled early, but Zito this yeah has had numerous terrible outings where he was pulled well before the 100 pitch mark, just because he was pitching so ineffectively.

So i don’t think they are trying to baby Zito. a lot of times they have been trying to protect the team from his massive suck.

by giantfan5 on Aug 27, 2008 9:19 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I get Zito has had a bad year. An epically terrible first 2-3 months. Personally I am shocked he is not closer to 20 losses this season . In my opinion it’s a testament to his will power that he has righted his ship enough that he might avoid 20 losses. So lets just count the outings after June 18. That was the 2 innings vs. the Tigers and the last time he did not though min of 5 innings. That 68 1/3 total innings. Zito’s line becomes 4/1/0. That is still a far cry from Tim or Cain’s use patterns.

If you drop Sanchez post 4th of July starts he still has 3/0/0 but in 107 IP. That’s pretty much similar of a use pattern. Much more then I would has expected when comparing a neophyte to a long an established veteran .

Perhaps you had something different in mind though and I am more then willing to listen to it.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 9:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Zito's useage

Is a result of his performance, not of some lower pitch count limit for him.

Zito is not as good of a pitcher as Lincecum or Cain, and his performance drops off much more rapidly in the later innings.

He gets pulled earlier than Lincecum or Cain because he is struggling to get people out – not because he has thrown too many pitches.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 10:54 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed, but if the game is out of hand by the time he’s getting yanked, there’s a compelling argument for leaving him in there to clean up his own mess and save the bullpen for another battle.

I would kinda hope that enough of those and Zito might just quit in embarassment and forego the contract.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 11:02 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lets take post June 18. Just for easy of discussion and it removes the easy straw man and red herring of his first couple months. Agreed?

Since then we have had a banged up Corriea, and couple weeks of good Sanchez and a whole lot of bull pen load. So natural candidates squeeze extra outs ( thus pitches) are the two guys under 26? Is that the smart use of rescores? Some one has to take a bullet for the team so why is not the 30 year old?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 11:04 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At some point you are actually trying to win games, not just get everyone a certain # of pitches.

If Zito is out there, and the team has a chance to win the game, and his performance starts to fall off – you need to go to the bullpen.

Cain and Lincecum rarely suffer a sufficient performance drop off to justify this, and as such are more limited by # of pitches than performance.

Agreed, if Zito is out there and it’s 10-2 nationals, then yeah – maybe he should keep cruising and eating up innings. At the same time however, if a guy isn’t getting people out you need to make a change, even if it means Zito didn’t throw that many pitches.

Zito has been pulled because doing so gave the team the best chance to win, not because he hit some pitch count limit. If Zito was a better pitcher, he would be throwing more pitches.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:17 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

re:

"If Zito is out there, and the team has a chance to win the game, and his performance starts to fall off – you need to go to the bullpen."

The crux is Botchy is much more willing to pull Zito this year then either Cain or Tim. What good does that do short or long term?

re:

"At some point you are actually trying to win games, not just get everyone a certain # of pitches."

Pick up a couple wins this year? Again what good does that do this franchise?

Also the goal is to get the outs to escape in mostly one piece in a season like this. Of coarse management can’t state that in the open but they can , and should, mold their actions by it.

Some thing to consider re:

“Cain and Lincecum rarely suffer a sufficient performance drop off to justify this, and as such are more limited by # of pitches than performance.”

Cain this year after 100 pitches 283/400/491 ( ba/obp/slg) 76 -100 pitches ‘08 220/302/380 .
Tim this year after 100 pitches 233/294/333 ( ba/obp/slg) 76 -100 pitches ‘08 212/297/301.

I agree this is better then the pen but ‘08 Giants are only in to position to gain, or loss, ‘09, ‘10, 11 and on. Wins this season should not be the guiding light for managers choices.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 11:49 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There You Go Again

How do you know that the 10 pitches added after 110 are the 10 pitches pitched after the pitcher started to feel tired or sore? What most of us in the anti pitch count side of the arguement are saying is that the best way to detect when a pitcher starts to reach this point is to just watch how he is throwing and performing and notice when he starts to show signs that things are changing.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 9:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How do you know that the 10 pitches added after 110 are the 10 pitches pitched after the pitcher started to feel tired or sore?

I might have misinterpreted what Fairweather wrote, but I don’t think that was what he was saying at all.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Aug 27, 2008 9:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hope your having funny rolling around in public with that inflatable straw man?

Pitch count is nothing more then foot marks on a road. Denying they exist does not make the miles that have to be traveled any less or any easier.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 9:54 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What?
What most of us in the anti pitch count side of the arguement are saying is that the best way to detect when a pitcher starts to reach this point is to just watch how he is throwing and performing and notice when he starts to show signs that things are changing.

This has been done, and guess what the result was?

About 100 pitches.

Some pitchers will be able to throw more, some won’t be able to throw that many (Maddux, anyone? Correia seems to be in this group, too).

It’s a guideline. Eventually, if Cain or Lincecum can SAFELY and EFFECTIVELY throw 130-140 pitches, they will.

However, the way to find out is not by assuming they can and having them throw a bunch of 130-140 pitch games and hope they don’t get hurt.

Much better idea to creep up from the bottom and see if they develop any problems. That is called developing a pitcher, which is exactly what you do with guys who are 23-24 years old.

Once you figure out where they start to experience detrimental effects, then you can set a more rigid count.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:13 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like the analogy of a tachometer on a car for this. Let the pitch count be revs. Certain engines can handle different levels of Rev depending on how the vehicle is set up and it’s condition. ( Think how a pitcher is trained and his natural skill). But in all cases a new car should be broke in with certain amount of Rev’s over a certain time period. Eventually that car can red line for limited periods of time and probably be all right but not tell it properly broke in and not tell the maintenance is rigorously kept up.

The Jenkins argument currently is take the vehicle off the show room floor and red line the thing all the way to Tahoe. If it does not crap its guts up your fine.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 11:23 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No. You just don’t cotton to it is all.

I don’t see him mention the McCormick’s and the Sadeki’s or of the same era. What was the age Kofux’s arm fell off? See these are all facts he omits and refuses to address. The Cars the crap their guts out as he red lined them over the Sierras. But a couple cars made it and so this is how things should always be done.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 12:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And I Don't See Your Side Mentioning All

the pitchers that get injured and end there career without ever being used at anywhere near the pitch count limits you want to set.

My bottom line point of view is that the science of assessing this risk has not progressed far enough to justify it’s use. Today still this assessment is still best made by the art of experienced baseball people just watching how the pitcher is actually doing. I see zero evidence that these pitch count limits have actually reduced injury risk. All the data I see shows no improvement in the percentage of pitchers getting injured.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 12:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That at least

Is an intelligent argument.

You should write things like that more often, people would take you more seriously.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My side? Considering I pretty much reside in the middle on this topic the fact you think I am on a side should tell you how far off kilter you are on this topic. In fact the only one talking about hard and fast pitch counts here is you.

But if you insist the all those not for Red Lineing a new vehicle to death are one group then McCormick‘s, Sadeki’s and Kofux’s are the crux for their argument. All these guy were pretty much cooked by age 30. With a bit better care maybe they would have been around and productive a few more seasons.

If you want to take the stance the knowledge has not gotten advanced enough to use – reasonable enough to me – then explain the raise the bull pen in the last 20 some years. And back to the War of Attrition please explain why the A’s organization had such a dramatically low burn rate? And what can you use to back up your explanation?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 12:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the rise of the bullpen

Is primarily due to performance, not injury risk.

Your average reliever in the modern age is more effective than your average starter after he has exposed his arsenal of pitches to each batter 2-3 times. Batters learn, and changing pitchers is a good way to counter act this.

“Back in the day” baseball players as a whole weren’t as good, and as a result – the starting pitchers probably were better, even after 2-3 times through the lineup, than the available relief help.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I admit it kind of a chicken or the egg type question. Back in the day the pen was were dead arms went or new ones tried to gain a starters role from. Now they look for people from the get go for specific roles. Some thing has to explain such a dramatic shift in attitude among "baseball men". Traditionally they are very adverse to change with out proof its better.

Myself I am not clear on whether is was better performance in the later innings of a given game or not having to re fill in the not elite starters as often.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 1:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think

There is a lot of validity to the thought that starting pitchers get exposed.

The 4th time you come up against the starter, you’ve now seen all of his pitches – gauged his speed and off speed differential, etc.

You are going to be more effective against him – and the statistics bear it out.

Bringing in a different pitcher, even if he doesn’t have as good of “stuff” resets that learning curve. This means that a guy out of the bullpen, even if he isn’t as good as the starter, will be more effective.

The better the starter/worse the bullpen will shift where this transition takes place. If the starter is good enough, or the bullpen is bad enough – it doesn’t make sense.

As bullpens have gotten better over the years, we have found ourselves in the position we currently are.

Not surprising, to me.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes and expansion making Mlb arms even more scarce on the ground. All we know for sure is the way base ball men think has changed dramatically on about ¼ of their rosters. After that I can’t definitively tell you why.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 1:14 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Post thought.

And that’s leaving out the 2 ton silver back gorrilia sitting in the room. Maybe such tactics were only possible on a league wide scale because of "vitamin enhancements".

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 1:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

IT STARTED AND ENDED WITH BONDS I THINK!

Fairley odd parent to Wendell

by WTF on Aug 27, 2008 2:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uhh,

the A’s have had lots of injuries recently, including to their pitchers. To the point where it’s become running joke on A’s Nation about the injuries, and the ineptitude of the training / S & C team.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 1:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes recently.

But that data was not available at the time of study. It is a draw back to it. The upside is it give a guy a chance to see the effects such low burn out rate can have on an organization when they leave it.

One could look at the other extreme with the M’s or Pirates but I figured would be easier for Giants fans ( in general) to look at the A’s and figure out what talent the A’s got when their pitchers went some were else . ( insert joke about breaking down else were here.) Something referring to the Pirates and M’s can’t readily provide. They can show the cost of get just league average when you don’t have that though.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 1:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Huh?

You keep saying that the A’s have a low burn out rate, and reference them in a War of Attrition. Yet, the evidence from the real world indicates that A’s players, A’s pitchers, get injured quite a bit.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 1:43 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do they really? Without doing any research or anything, it seems to me the A’s during the Beane years have done quite well at keeping their good young pitchers healthy.

by Evan on Aug 27, 2008 1:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess you have to define healthy.

If a pitcher misses time during the season, is he healthy? How much time would he have to miss before he gets tagged as being not healthy?

For example, is Duchscherer healthy? Or not healthy? Gio Gonzalez? Sean Gallagher?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 2:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The study used data from 95 -’04. So recent years were not used.
During that time the A’s had a low burn out rate.
I acknowledged the last couple seasons are not in study. So I don’t feel I can safely apply that study to ‘08 A’s. Could be a lot of reason. Change of coaching styles. Management philosophies. Less quality talent.

The only thing post ‘04 data I directly, logicaly and safely apply to that study not expressly included is look at what the arms in the study returned to there team when they left.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 1:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So what exactly is your point?

That the A’s in one period of time, had a low injury rate among their pitchers, due to a variety of unknown factors, including possibly that those pitchers in the past were simply more talented than the current set of pitchers?

What does this have to do with pitch counts?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 2:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

For this branch of the thread :
During that time frame ( a decade which is not small period of time) the A’s were an organization not adverse to new fangled ideas like pitch counts in the minors. Now the low burn out rate could have been correlation not causation. But it some how the result produced . The fact M’s ( very much a rub some dirt on it and man up) organization was at near the top of the burn out rate again could be correlation not causation. But that is darn strong set of coincidences to be out right ignored.

As a whole to the topic: I kept bringing up that study because it is open scoured. We can see the criteria used. And we could have frame our points off that.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 28, 2008 9:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Grant

Please replace Bruce Jenkins and write for the Chronicle

Thanks

I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..

by lmaozedong on Aug 27, 2008 8:28 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 27, 2008 8:49 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Err on the side of caution

Since we don’t know the effect of throwing too many pitches on a young arm or even how many are too many, I think it makes sense to err on the side of caution, particularly with a brilliant young arm such as Tim Lincecum’s.

I happen to think Tim could complete most of his starts — and then pitch an inning of relief two days later on the day he normally throws anyway. But what if I am wrong?

Why risk slaying the goose that lays the golden eggs?

by sharksrog on Aug 27, 2008 8:35 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

far too reasonable. this kind of rationale has no place in this discussion.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 8:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You think you’re so smart because you can make my point with 2,000 less words? Huh?

by Grant on Aug 27, 2008 8:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How Do You Know Which Side Of Caution You Are On?

Who is to say what pitch count number is the right magic number? I agree to error on the side of caution but I disagree that you can do this with a pitch count. You do this buy watching how the guy is throwing and being able to detect when he is starting to show signs of fatigue.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 9:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

p.s.

(The whole “pitch count” issue is merely a shiny object distracting us from the actual discussion.)

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 9:57 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I Have Already Read All Of These

The fatal flaw is throwing all pitchers togeather and treating them as if they are the same.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 10:02 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

humm no. they group young pitchers.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:06 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that is absolutely not true. The Woolner article does an awful lot of carving pitchers into different groups.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 27, 2008 10:10 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe read 'em again

Your assessment is not especially accurate.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 10:19 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Groups Yes

But they are individuals and I see the groupings they choose to use as just being choosen because they best fit their preconcieved desired results.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 10:40 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now, Now. That's Not Fair

What makes you assume that these guys were hoping to achieve any particular result? The methodology is right there for you to dissect; what, if anything, was wrong with how they conducted their studies?

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 10:45 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PAP is worthelss.

Way too many arbitrary assumptions.

What is wrong? Just off the top of my head, not a detailed critique:

Firstly, focusing completely on volume, while not even bothering to mention intensity. At all. None of the PAP articles I’ve seen, whether the ones you’ve linked here by Woolner, or the original ones by Jayazerli have even bothered to address this FUNDAMENTAL issue.

Secondly, the “Caterories”. Why is 0-100 category one? Why not 0-101? Why not 0-99?

Thirdly, comparable pitchers by age group and pitch count. Why age group? Using age group entirely discounts the qualifications of the pitcher, and the training age of the pitcher.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:29 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Like everything else in baseball

Things average out. If a guy throws 60% FB, 20% CH, and 20% CB, then overall you are going to get a representative sample of his workload by just counting # of pitches

Sure, if one day he comes out and throws 100% FB then your representative sample of his workload is not going to be as valid – but that doesn’t happen.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:31 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"Averaging out"?

That makes little sense?

Even if he throws the same proportion of pitches all the time, you’re still assuming that firstly, all those pitchers are thrown with the same intensity. Ie all those fastballs are thrown with the same velocity all the time. What if in a start against the Cubs, a pitcher threw all his fastballs at max velocity, but in a start against the Nationals, a pitcher for the most part didn’t push it?

And how does it “average” out for different pitchers? For Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain for example? Or for Tim Lincecum and Barry Zito, 2 very different pitchers?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:48 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you will find

That this is very rarely true:

What if in a start against the Cubs, a pitcher threw all his fastballs at max velocity, but in a start against the Nationals, a pitcher for the most part didn’t push it?

Can you imagine lincecum saying “eh well, it’s the Nationals – so I’m not going to try as hard.”

And it averages out over the body of pitchers studied. That is why there are things like standard deviations on any set of data like that.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:55 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You are ASSUMING that it averages out.

There is no evidence at all the it averages out. None. None of these PAP studies have EVER tried to measure intensity. None of them even bothered to address the issue. At all. So, there is NO evidence, AT ALL, that things average out.

I can imagine LIncecum saying “it’s a long season, I need to be careful not to push myself too hard when I don’t need to.”.

There is no indication that it averages out for different pitchers, for a Tim Lincecum and a Barry Zito. None. And the assumption that it “averages” out flies in the face of fundamental physical LAWS. How can a 95 mph fastball from a Tim Lincecum, “average out” with an 83 mph fastball from a Zito or a Greg Maddux?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 1:19 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As far as catagories

You’ve got to divide them somewhere. 100 is a more aesthetically pleasing # than 99, and providing you don’t see any data that suggests that 100 is significantly different than 99, it is as good a place as any to divide it.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:32 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

100 is more aesthetically pleasing than 99?

Fine.

Why is category 5 133 pitches and above then? Why not a nice round number like 135?

And really that is my point. When you are defining your categories based on those categories being “aesthetically pleasing”, and “as good a place as any to divide it”, it IS arbitrary rubbish. If any place, any division is as good as any other, then the divisions are worthless.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because, quite likely, 133 pitches demonstrated something significantly different than 135.

Or because it was 1 std deviation from the mean, or some other sensible explanation.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:56 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What?

What does it demonstrate? Let’s assume that it is 1 std deviation from the mean. So what? That’s STILL an arbitrary designation.

WTF has 1 std deviation from the mean got to do with injury rates? With pitching performance? Unless the relationship is demonstrated with evidence, that is an arbitrary designation, regardless if it is a “sensible” explanation.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 1:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You've got to pick a # dude.

Whenever you are studying groups, you need to pick a point to split the groups.

Things like standard deviations, divisions in the data, etc are all valid ways to do this.

I’m not sure what you are saying.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 2:50 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Have you looked at those links?

Category 1, 0-100 pitches, is defined as “safe” starts. Category 5, 133 and above, is defined as “high risk”

You need EVIDENCE to make those designations. Not “standard deviations”. Without EVIDENCE, those divisions you’re making are ARBITRARY RUBBISH.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 27, 2008 11:23 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Elegant sparring use of well deserved vitriol . Thank you Grand Master Grant.

2 point the knee jerk response to pitch counts the Jenkins ignores are important in my eyes.
The first is most responsible studies I’ve seen center around age 26 ( give or take a year) arms. That leave a whole host of pitchers/throwers to use the "old school" ways with. Those she people rather pretend there is no distinction made. I guess it taxes the brain too much or they get too much carnal joy from rolling around with an inflatable straw man in public.

The second point is just what the heck do you think Beane’s A’s have been successful from? Go had grab an envelope and write down the A’s position players traded this decade or singed as compensated free agents. The write what those players returned in a second column. Grab a second envelope and write down the pitchers that left and a in separate column the return players. Envelope 1 is a much shorter list then when you write down the arms and what they have returned. He has infused more talent into his system by trading arms ( Arms -the non burned out type) then OBP centered sticks. There is your true engine that drives money ball. For some reason teams don’t with to trade for the burned out arms and the burned out arms rarely become compensated free agents. Go figure.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 8:37 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jenkins...

has been peddling his cranky-gramps brand of column writing for years. A couple other gems from the vault:

We’re getting very tired of this inside-baseball nonsense claiming that batting averages are overrated. There’s no mystery to .231, .283, .328 or .370. Except for the speed burners with their bunt singles and infield choppers, it tells you exactly what you need to know in terms of pure contact…

And this:

Like all of the coolest cats in the universe, Barry Zito isn’t real big on hassles. He likes a warm breeze, smart conversation, a sensible guitar riff, the simple beauty of a 3-and-1 pitch to Vladimir Guerrero.

A sensible guitar riff? “‘Ello, Cleveland, we’re the Clash, and we’d like to start our musical presentation with a song entitled ‘London Calling’ which features one of me mate Mick Jones’s more sensible guitar riffs.”

Nuff said.

Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com

by leftymalo on Aug 27, 2008 8:42 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We’re getting very tired of this inside-baseball nonsense claiming that batting averages are overrated. There’s no mystery to .231, .283, .328 or .370. Except for the speed burners with their bunt singles and infield choppers, it tells you exactly what you need to know in terms of pure contact…

Got it. So Adam Dunn isn’t as good as Ivan Ochoa. Noted.

A sensible guitar riff?

"I don’t know, Ritchie. The riff rocks — it really does sound like smoke hovering over a body of water — but is it sensible? I can’t answer that one right now. Let’s just put the song on hold for now.

by Grant on Aug 27, 2008 8:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually

He meant “Sensible” guitar riff. Zito is a huge Damned fan, and Jenkins was referring to the canon of Captain Sensible. Unfortunately, the copy editor in the slot that day mistakenly lowercased it.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 8:53 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neat Neat Neat!

Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher??

by tobias on Aug 27, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That Zito quote is just perfect. You couldn’t write a sentence more freighted with smugness, sycophancy, affectation, and stupidity if you tried.

by Evan on Aug 27, 2008 8:53 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bruce Jenkins is probably why all expression has died in sportswriting. Because he peed all over it.

Oh and I get the lighter, informal tone, but REAL BIG ON [noun] just isn’t grammatically correct. When writing professionally for anything, a newspaper, a pamphlet, a cocktail napkin, use the English language properly for fuck’s sake.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 27, 2008 9:05 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't just blame Jenkins

Bill Plaschke was his sidekick, and he’s done a heckuva job too.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 27, 2008 11:33 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You’re right, the death of expression in sportswriting is a widespread crime. Lots of them have peed on it.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 27, 2008 1:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We’re getting very tired of this inside-baseball nonsense claiming that batting averages are overrated. There’s no mystery to .231, .283, .328 or .370. Except for the speed burners with their bunt singles and infield choppers, it tells you exactly what you need to know in terms of pure contact…

Man that is endanger of robbing me from the pervious glee I get from witnessing what is probably the 9 months ( or less) that will make up Ochoa’s MLB career. Thanks Bruce.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 9:08 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cranky gramps brand

this.

My admittedly faulty empirical analysis of the Comical is that many of their writers are resorting to baiting their readers. Carrol has been perfectly trollish recently in his attacks on cyclists.

I wonder if this isn’t one of the “strategies” that fearful newspaper editors are extolling in light of the [impending] obsolescence of newspapers.

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Aug 27, 2008 9:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was my first thought as well. And it might actually be working.

Cranky Gramps writes preposterous article
Trained monkeys post it on Interblog
Grant blows gasket, writes screed
MLBTR dude links to it
SFGate gets lotta page views
Profit (not rly)

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 9:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

call me paranoid, but has anybody ever seen giantsrainman and jenkins in the same room?

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Aug 27, 2008 10:16 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t remember the last time Jenkins had anything nice to say about the Giants.
Rainman – though currently being purposely dense – I believe genuinely wants the Giants to do well. Just my 2 cents to lay on the rails before the train arrives.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:20 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh he has very complimentary things to say about the Giants dumping Barry Bonds and replacing him with AARON ROWAND, GAMER.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 27, 2008 10:21 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aarron " What’s a cut man " Rowan? Yes I could see that.

As for Bonds I am not sure who kicked who’s dog first but I can tell you which one can’t stop grinding his axe over it.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:23 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Aaron Rowand:

because back in the good old days, we threw the ball from the warning track to home on one hop.

None of this pansy cut-off many bullshit.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:23 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nice. Cleaned my sinus with that one.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 12:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Picking on GRM and TimLincecum.com bums me out.

But with GRM, I can’t help it sometimes.

xkcd has us dead to rights:

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 27, 2008 10:27 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

phenomenal

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 10:28 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

* golf clap*

nice

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:28 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

best ever

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 27, 2008 10:37 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 27, 2008 10:42 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This has made me laugh three different times today

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 2:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was pretty fond of this recent one

“Fuck You, Grapefruit” is another classic.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 28, 2008 3:05 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t get the girls/cup thing

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 3:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You don’t want to know.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Aug 27, 2008 3:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah you do*

*no you don’t

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 27, 2008 3:15 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Holy crap! I’m not sure if I want to see that

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 4:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neither is groug

You should ask groud.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 5:17 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Abso-frickin-lutely

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 27, 2008 2:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, you can’t expect them to be thoroughly versed in the nuances of first-wave British punk like old Bruce, now can you?

I once had a copy editor change a chapter titled “Anarchy in the U.K.” to “Anarchy in the United Kingdom.”

by Evan on Aug 27, 2008 10:30 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

seriously?

That’s hilarious/awful.

-Former Copy Editor

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 10:31 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes. I can.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:32 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh crap the typo police are out and about. I’m in trouble now.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 10:29 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

writing to his audience

who reads newspapers? for the most part, old people do. Writing a grumpy old man article that basically starts with “In my day…” fits the bill.

yes, it is on the net, but Jenkins wouldn’t write and article just for the net. that would be beneath him.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 27, 2008 11:00 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the simple beauty of a 3-and-1 pitch to Vladimir Guerrero.

The sublime ‘crack’ as a 86mph meatball is blistered into the gap off Vlads’ bat…

The cheeky irreverence of opposing baserunners churning around the diamond resulting in yet another Giants loss…

I mean really, why a 3-1 pitch? Other than it’s obviously something Zito’s familiar with

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Aug 27, 2008 11:06 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously. That cracked me up even more than the “sensible riff”.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Aug 27, 2008 12:41 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Linked to from MLBTR. Prepare to get farked!

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 9:20 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SCREED NEVER SLUMPS!!!

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 9:49 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"The idea of doing permanent harm to a pitcher's arm didn't come into anyone's mind."

And that was a good thing?

Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.

by ResDog on Aug 27, 2008 10:51 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At one time, the idea that disease might be spread by tiny organisms called “germs” hadn’t come into anyone’s mind either.

Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.

by EliminateMe on Aug 27, 2008 11:10 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Louis Pasteur:

Not a gamer, and lived in his mom’s basement

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 11:15 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When can we discuss putting howie on a post count?

I would think that’s something everyone could agree upon.

Zooperstars, they quack me up!

by Goofus on Aug 27, 2008 11:07 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Third best poster

Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.

by EliminateMe on Aug 27, 2008 11:11 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

at best.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 11:11 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Huh? *checks date*

Okay. I was wondering if I had gone back in time because that joke is so last week.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:23 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

While you’re back there, would you do us all a favor and kill Scott Spezio’s great-grandfather?

Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.

by EliminateMe on Aug 27, 2008 11:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To last week?

Okay, if he’s still alive I’ll do it. I’m not sure what it would accomplish, however.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:42 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your time machine only goes back to last week?

I just assumed you paid the extra bucks for a decent model.

Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.

by EliminateMe on Aug 27, 2008 11:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My handle is "thehavenot"

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:49 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alright, fine.

In that case maybe you could just kick his uncle in the shins.

Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.

by EliminateMe on Aug 27, 2008 11:56 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Come with me

if you want to live.

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Aug 27, 2008 4:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess my thing is, what the heck are the reasons for the anti-pitch count crusade? Nostalgia.

I have nothing against nostalgia; at least, not until it starts to be the primary motivating factor in our decisions and beliefs.

There’s a reason why Jenkins is choosing guys from the 50’s-80’s to wax nostalgic about. Spahn, Roberts, Feller, Gibson, etc. all represent the era that Jenkins most likely grew up watching. He mentions, in passing, the earliest eras of major league baseball; during which pitchers would occasionally throw more than 500 innings and some got up over 800 innings.

He does mention the differences in that game compared to today but it just makes me wonder why someone shouldn’t wax nostalgic about that era. Why shouldn’t he be complaining about pitchers throwing less than 500 innings any more? That argument is just as valid as his.

I’m guessing Bruce would say that it’s because the game has changed (for the better) since then and we shouldn’t look back. And then the correct response would be “exactly.”

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:34 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Nostalgia Is Neither The Reason Or The Goal

But not ignoring the lessons of history is a reason and goal. But not the only one. We all want to best manage risk vs reward. This arguement is all about the best way to access the actual risk.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 11:41 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Bruce Bochy seems to be doing a great job of accessing risk with his young arms.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 11:42 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assume you meant assess, rather than access

And if you think that is the purpose of Jenkins’ column, then you should read it again.

I am not commenting on your reasons, GRM. I am willing to grant you that those are your reasons. Jenkins (and many others on your side) have other reasons. And they all have to do with nostalgia.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 11:46 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But what is the lesson of history?

That some guys did fine with very high pitch counts?

Yes.

That other guys threw a lot of pitchers and then got injured?

Also yes.

For every player that you quote as throwing a billion pitches and never having a problem, I can probably quote you two who went the other way.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 11:47 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Many Other Guys Get Hurt

completely independent of how many pitches they throw.

Bottom line to me, you need to look at the individual not the group.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 11:51 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sure, but you use the results of the group to give a suggestion as to where to start.

And the results of the group say “about 100 pitches”.

So that is where you start. You then learn, through experience evaluating that pitcher, what his limits are. Lots of guys demonstrate that they can easily exceed 100 pitches, game after game.

Others don’t.

And just because a guy is still throwing hard, getting guys out, and “feels fine” doesn’t mean he is not hurting himself. You cannot make that evaluation in game.

You need at least a season worth of pitching at a certain # of pitches without any ill effects to determine that the pitcher is safely capable of that #.

And that is precisely what the Giants are doing w/ Cain and Lincecum. If neither of them experiences any ill effects after pitching this season at ~ 110 pitches per game, I think we can all feel pretty confident that they can handle that. Next season, push that up to the 115-120 range (if their performance allows it) and see what happens.

I really don’t see how anyone could argue with that other than to say that they are pushing the envelope too fast.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And since the years before a pitcher turns 25 can have the most profound impact on his health and performance over the course of his career, there’s really no reason to take chances with Cain and Lincecum.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 12:07 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+109

Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.

by marklar on Aug 27, 2008 5:59 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

when high pitch count guys get hurt, it doesn’t count, but when they don’t, it does?

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 27, 2008 1:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I feel like actually moving this conversation forward

Could you name some of these guys? (I’m not denying they exist. I just would like to see some names so we can discuss)

I’m guessing you won’t because that’s not how you roll. You like calling for data from others and not providing any yourself. No, let me amend that. You like calling for data from others and then flat out refusing to provide any yourself.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 4:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How About Every Single Minor League Starting Pitcher

tha suffers an injury? How about ever single relief pitcher at any level that suffers an injury?

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 5:34 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Minor Leaguers, you might have something

Relievers are an entirely different animal. We don’t really know how pitching multiple days in a row affects the body any more than we know how to predict when too many pitches have been thrown by a starting pitcher.

Minor Leaguers is a much better example, however. Still, one thing that is pretty common knowledge is that young bodies break down easier. I’m not sure how much of a data point minor league injuries is in the argument against pitch counts.

If we were to really pursue this, we would need to find statistical evidence determining the injury rate of minor leaguers before the widespread use of pitch counts and after the widespread use of pitch counts.

We might actually be getting somewhere, then. Unless I missed something.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 6:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are many problems with looking at medical info

1) It doesn’t exist for much of baseball history, particularly for those minor leaguers who form an important part of the argument for the conservative approach.

2) Medical diagnosis has advanced over time. Injuries with could only be ID as “dead arm” or something similarly nebulous in the 60’s (if they were even recognized as an njury at all) can be easily identified and treated today.

3) Medical treatment has advanced over time. “Fragile” pitchers who would have been either been forced to retire due to injury or returned with significantly reduced stuff are now about to return with their pitches more or less intact. Since the low end of the endurance curve isn’t being weeded out as effectively as it was in the past, the baseline minimum expected endurance should be lower (and, to a certain extent, this explain the rise of the bullpen as a home for extremely effective but fragile arms).

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 27, 2008 9:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, I am aware of this stuff

I do, however, feel that this would be the only way to really find anything meaningful in the information.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 28, 2008 12:20 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can Anyone Here Actually Provide Any Data

that shows that pitch count limits have reduced the risk of injury?

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 12:22 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well,

There is some evidence that throwing more than 100 pitches in a game can damage the arms and shoulders of many pitchers. Is that good enough?

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 12:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope

What I am looking for is any data that shows injury rates for pitchers have improved as a result of pitch counts. I do not believe this evidence exists.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 12:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There is likely no real way to prove or disprove this.

Because it is an extremely complex and poorly controlled sample.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yes

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 27, 2008 12:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we could somehow get 200 pitchers

And force half of them to throw 150 pitches a game and the other group 100 for 5 seasons, we might.

But that is not going to happen. The problem with any analysis based on historical data is that groups tend to be self selecting.

Better pitchers have longer careers because they are better. They also throw more pitches because they pitch more innings because they pitch more games because they are better.

Bad pitchers are going to throw less pitches because they are worse pitchers.

It’s the Kevin Correia Vs. Tim Lincecum thing. Lincecum throws more pitches AND will (hopefully) have a longer career because he is a better pitcher.

That skews the data.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe the question is too complicated for there to ever be any truly convincing evidence. But isn’t it blindingly obvious that it’s better to be safe than sorry? Every pitcher has an upper limit. Every pitcher gets tired and starts making mechanical mistakes. Every pitcher eventually loses his physical skills. When you’re dealing with pitchers who are (a) young, and (b) not in a pennant race, why on earth would you not be conservative with them.

by Evan on Aug 27, 2008 12:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is the basis for my POV.

Since it is a truism that every pitcher has an upper limit, then it does make sense to be careful with pitchers when the risk/reward is out of balance.

There is essentially zero reward for Lincecum going 140 pitches in any game this season. Therefor, if there is even ANY risk of that being detrimental, it is not worth it.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Had that fateful game Vs. Az

Been in September 2010 instead, with a 1 game lead for the division, I think you would see 99% of the McCoven on board with pushing Tim’s limits.

But in the context that it was, it made sense to do what was done. (and what has been done in most other games this season).

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 27, 2008 12:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I 100% agree.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Aug 27, 2008 1:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is the other essence of the argument, here

This completes Grant’s thought above (where I said it was the essence and stuff, so yeah).

Not only is the arbitrary 100 pitch count number fairly sensible (if not perfect for everyone), it’s better to be safe than not.

To me, in the absence of compelling data either way, it’s better to set a safe limit; regardless of whether that limit is somewhat arbitrary or not.

Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 27, 2008 2:20 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I always say the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

What?

Simply because you don’t have evidence that something does exist does not mean you have evidence of something that doesn’t exist.

What?

What country are you from?

What?

‘What’ ain’t no country I ever heard of! They speak English in ‘What’?

What?

English, motherfucker! Do you speak it?

Yeah.

So you understand the words I’m saying to you!

 Yeah.

Well, what I’m saying is that there are known knowns and that there are known unknowns. But there are also unknown unknowns; things we don’t know that we don’t know.

What?

Say what again! Say what again! I dare you! I double dare you, motherfucker! Say what one more time!

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Aug 27, 2008 4:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol Pulp Fiction

Still in despair.

by Zetsuboushita on Aug 27, 2008 5:33 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Either
A. We can safely go back to the good ol’ days of 220 pitch games
or
B. Pitch counts are necessary to reduce injury

Either
C. We implement pitch counts.
D. We don’t.

Scenario 1) if A is true and we follow D, then everything is fine. Baseball is slightly improved by more quality innings from good pitchers.

Scenario 2) if B is true and we follow C, then we’ve reduced the injury risk to the pitchers we have. Prizes for everyone!

Scenario 3) if B is true and we follow D, then catastrophic arm injuries happen for a not insignificant number of pitcher, especially young pitchers. Booo! Hiss.

Scenario 4) if A is true and we follow C, then we have to watch a little more Tyler Walker than we would like to. No prizes, but a normal amount of catastrophic arm injuries.

It seems to me that the downside risk of scenario 3) is enough to make ignoring pitch counts a losing strategy. And most major league teams seem to agree with me. So, the burden of proof would seem to lie with Jenkins, Barbieri and GRM, because if they are wrong, the cost is far higher than the cost if we are wrong.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 27, 2008 1:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

this is

the logical fallacy of negative proof.

"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Aug 27, 2008 1:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No It Isn't

How hard is it to measure the injury rates before pitch counts because virtually standard pracitce and injury rates after this standard practice? I am not asking for a negative to be proven. I am asking for the positive of reduced injury rates to be proven.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 1:38 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So you can deny that proof as being cherry picked?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 1:42 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If The Proof Exists Try Me

I am alwaying interested in learning more which is why I read all that I can on the subjects that interest me the most.

by giantsrainman on Aug 27, 2008 1:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Acutely read the links above. There is your start. Not see what you think you hear. Weight it out and reread it. That fact you were claim cherry picking and mass groups shows you have failed to even try that. If you had you could have cited direct examples in mythology were you object.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 27, 2008 2:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs