'09 Dream Starting Lineup
by DuikeBuike on Aug 26, 2008 3:10 PM PDT
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PrintLots of new kids have been called up and ever since the youth movement started, the giants have been playing a lot better. If i could see one team play every day next year, here it is:
1. 2b-Eugenio Velez
2. ss-Emmauel Burriss
3. Lf-Fred Lewis
This would give us a really quick 1-2-3 punch.
4. C- Pablo Sandoval
5. Cf-Aaron Rowand
6. Rf-Nate Schierholtz
7. 1b-Tryouts between Ishi and Bowker
8. 3b-Kevin Frandsen
9. Lincecum/Cain/Sanchez/Zito/Lowry?
This team would be very exciting to watch, win or lose. They could be downright awful at times, but that's part of rebuilding.
Offseason: Molina and Winn traded for some exciting minor league bats. We would have to eat 4 MM of Winn's salary next year, but I'm fine with that. Sabean is smart and does not spend stupid money on players like Sabthia/Burrell/Dunn.
Post your lineups!
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Nah, he just spends stupid money on Zito so there’s nothing left to spend.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 26, 2008 3:11 PM PDT reply actions
it wasn't OBVIOUSLY anything
can’t make a sure call either way. However, it can be pointed out that while Sabean has been the GM, stupid contracts have been given out aplenty.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 26, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Replace Velez with Denker, get a bat at 3rd, and I’ll be happy.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
hopefully my friend Marcello won’t think this is ignorant, but I would have Frandsen at second, keep Bengie at catcher for another year and hope that Pablito works out at third. I’m not sure that Manny is ready to be an everyday major league shortstop, but 2009 should be a year for finding out this stuff. My lineup would be:
l. Lewis LF
2. Frandsen 2B
3. Nate RF
4. Rowand CF
5. Sandoval 3B
6. Winner between Ishi and Bowker 1b
7. Molina C
8. Burriss SS
No way they bat Bengie seventh, so I have no problem with switching him with the first base winner.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
Why is everyone so eager to move Pablo to 3B? If we don’t trade Molina (we should, though), there’s no problem with letting Pablo catch at Fresno. He’s 21, and only has 175 AB over A+.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Because Posey will be hot on his tail after this year
It’d be better for him in the long run if he got out of Buster’s way. Buster plays better catcher than Pablo.
Buster has like 7 pro AB’s, all of them in the Arizona league. He’s 2-3 years away from the majors, maybe even more. I know it sucks to think about it, but there’s still a pretty good chance he never even makes the majors. Moving Pablo out of a position in which he’s much more valuable just because we might have another C in a few years doesn’t make sense IMO. I’m fine with letting him start at third once in a while, but I’d still like him to get most of his starts at C.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
he could also be moved to SS if needed
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 26, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
And we could also trade one of them. Or move Pablo to 3B when Buster is actually close to the majors.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Why on earth would we do THAT?
The third base solution we have right now in ??? is obviously better than anything that could possibly be provided by Pablo Sandoval!
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
Because he’s a lot more valuable as a catcher. If we move him now, we’re basically eliminating any chance he has to be a major league catcher just because we might have another one in a few years. That is silly.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
I don't know if it was you I already had this conversation with or not...
but basically, I feel like if your organization really, really lacks hitting, you shouldn’t be trading away those who can hit. You trade from your surplus (pitching) to get what you need (hitting).
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 27, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
you just trade for what makes you better
Sandoval at 3B is likely a league average bat
Sandoval at C is an above average bat
Trade Sandoval as a catcher and can likely get an above avg 3B (or another position of need) for a team in need of a catcher.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
do you really think Sandoval right now would net an above average major league 3B? If not, what kind of 2009 season do you think he would need to merit an above average 3B?
Assuming we’re talking about trading for a young-ish, controllable 3B, I doubt Sandoval alone would net that kind of player. Even if he hits like crazy, it’s not like teams will be eager to give away above average 3B for a catcher. And, if he does hit like crazy, then given the state of the team, don’t you think it would be better to keep the guys who can hit and get another one, rather than get an above average bat and lose one at the same time? It would leave you in the same position you were before the trade, you just have Posey and a true 3B instead of having all three (Posey, Sandoval, and new 3B). I really think they could find a place for all three if they needed to bad enough.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 27, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
not yet
but that’s why we don’t move him catcher. We only need to move him when Posey is ready, which probably won’t be until 2011 or 12.
If he does hit like crazy, all the better, that just means we’ll be able to get more. As a general rule, whatever Pablo hits as a catcher, we should be able to trade for a better line at another position (with perhaps the exception of SS). Depending how well he does determines how much we can get
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
But in this hypothetical situation, catching is our surplus.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
true
but in this hypothetical situation, pitching is still the surplus and hitting is the deficiency (will be for a while, I’m afraid).
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 27, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t get this. What does it matter? What’s the difference between adding 5 wins on defense or on offense? Anyway, back to Sandoval:
Sandoval is more valuable as a catcher. Posey is not going to be in the majors before 2011 or 12 (probably). Sandoval should stay a catcher until we’re sure that Posey is going to make it and that he’s going to be better than Pablo. Then we can move him to third/trade him/platoon them.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
while I too am okay with Sandoval playing C for now, saying Posey is at least 2-3 years away is false. He is more likely 1-2, starting from next year (after all this year is at its end, and thus 2-3 years is misleading if you are just counting this year).. He has some things to work on, catching wise, but not that much. Remember, Pablo hasn’t had that much time behind the dish, either, and Posey has had significant college time behind the plate. Posey likely starts out in San Jose, and likely stays there most of the year. Assuming he does well there, they’ll move him up to AA. If he does well there (shows he is ready), then he could be promoted to MLB during that year. When he was drafted, and when he was signed, the giants said they were planning to fast-track him. Now, it could take longer
by haverecords on Aug 26, 2008 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions
No he won't
There’s only a handful of catchers who have less than 300 games caught in the minors, and those guys are all above 270 (Pudge at 271). Posey’s still got at least a couple seasons down there.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
You can keep playing the poor, innocent victim all you want, but I doubt many sympathize with you. You’re the one who started with the “watch a game” stuff, which, regardless of who it was directed at, is condescending and stereotypical.
Anyways, Frandsen is a player who doesn’t walk enough and doesn’t have hardly any power. If everything works out for him, he’s probably David Eckstein with fewer walks. I’d be ok with Frandsen getting first shot at the 2B job, but he shouldn’t be blocking Denker.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Also not sold on Frandsen. I think a lot of folks here remember him too fondly. I’d prefer Denker as well, but they should have to fight it out in the terrordome to see who gets the spot.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Frandsen’s hitting .380 for me in MLB 08 and playing a good SS for me after Dustin Pedroia broke his arm. I see no reason this won’t happen irl.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
Yes. Hey, he played it in college. I think. He was doing fine, anyway.
(By the way, Frandsen is now hitting .212/.310/.296)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
how do you draw so many walks in MLB 08?
I’m lucky if my entire lineup walks once per game.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, fwiw, I simmed about two weeks of the games. But really, the pitchers throw a lot of balls, you just have to be patient.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
I am quite patient
In fact, I probably strike out looking more than anything because of that patience. I can usually get it to a 2-2 count or a 3-2, but it’s hard to get an easy ball in either count.
Plus, it’s always hard to distinguish a low fastball for me because of the angle we’re given.
Maybe your just better than me
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
How is MLB 2008 BTW? My problem with 2007 was that it was way too easy to hit HR’s to the opposite field. I hit like ten splash hits with Molina.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
it's much improved
my only complaints
1) Baserunning is harder than it needs to be.
2) Walks are hard to draw
3) No HR derby
by NeifiChicken on Aug 28, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions
I was kidding with you, but continue to act all hot headed, because I like that I have upset you. And also, stop pretending that you speak for the board and that everybody is angry with me because I said “watch a game.” Nobody commented, so nobody else was upset. By the way, I saw you on the gameday thread last night. First game you watched all year??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
I have a rule
In an argument, when one side says “have you ever watched a game”/ “you need to watch more games”/ “[insert nerd joke here]”, the other side is always right.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
That's a stupid rule
You obviously need to watch more fights.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. - Bob Lemon, 1981
my quote was taken out of context as well. I said I have become someone who has a great appreciation of stats, but if you want to show me stats that say that Randy Winn is better than Manny Ramirez, I will revert back to my previous “put down the calculator and watch a game” philosophy. Why someone would take this personally, I have no idea. But if he wants to fight and it entertains the board, let’s have some fun.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
No, it wasn’t taken out of context:
Over the years I’ve gone from a fan who had no use for stats to a fan that has really come to appreciate them. If you can show me stats that tell me Randy Winn is better than Manny Ramirez it could be the impetus for me to go back to my original way of thinking. Once in awhile you have to put down the calculator and turn on the game.
See that period after thinking? That makes what you wrote different from what you’re now saying you meant.
Also, I love that you’re transferring blame for bringing all this back up. You’re the one who started it with your smartass, “hopefully my friend Marcello won’t think this is ignorant,” comment. Throughout this whole incident, you have been the instigator and are either being intentionally deceptive about that fact, or have lied to yourself so well that you actually believe it.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
My explanation and your reprinting of my statement look like the same exact thing to me. If you have to go so far as to interpret my periods, you really DO need to find more constructive things to do with your time. Anyway, I’m done discussing this silliness with you. I come on here to discuss Giants’ baseball, not to go back and forth with some moron.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
They aren’t the same thing. What you wrote implies that others should watch a game. What you’re saying you wrote is that you should watch a game. You don’t see the difference?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
It may be just groupthink
But I actually read that quote as rx saying he’s astounded that a statistic has been used to show Winn > Ramirez. I interpret it as him sort of pointing out that all statheads (himself included) sometimes get trapped in the vast number of statistics used to analyze a player’s value and should, at times, give more credit to observation of the actual game.
And for the record, I’ll take Manny by a mile.
Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.
Woody definitely wins here
that’s exactly what I meant, and you said it way better than I did. Thanks.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
Is that actually true?
A stat that says Winn’s been better than Manny?
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not a stat, it’s just a quick study that tries to quantify their offensive and defensive contributions.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/winn-value
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
it doesn't even factor in baserunning
which Winn also clearly has a 3-5 run edge I’m sure.
I’ve seen plenty of similar articles to that before, just never with Winn. The big question is just how much you value the accuracy of the defensive metrics. There is no doubt that they have come a long way, but I’m not sure I accept them as being as accurate as offensive metrics. Offense has been analyzed closely be sabermetricians for the past 30-40 years, whereas defensive stats are really more of a recent revelation.
I don’t except them as fact just yet, but do appreciate the degree in which they can give us a potential idea of the value of defense. Currently to me, what they stand for means more than the actual metrics themselves. The ideas are right, but still quite imprecise. Imagine if we calculated offense the same way we did defense
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, defensive metrics aren’t perfect, but they have come a long way. I think the takeaway from that article is that while common knowledge says Manny is way better than Winn, it’s really much closer than most would think.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
yes, certainly
As baserunning metrics go further I expect to see an upswing in those as well. Yes, we know how much a good base stealer contributes to an offense (like Randy Winn this year) but base running is a good frontier.
On a pure guess, I think a good base runner versus an extremely bad one could be as big of a difference as 10 runs a year.
In truth, I’m sure big league clubs (at least the progressive ones) already have great information on these issues far beyond what we can see
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I have a rule
In any argument when one side begins with “I have rule/theory” the other side is always right. Wait……
It could be witches?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 28, 2008 3:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Xander doesn’t say that directly after “I’ve got a theory,” stupid! God, you’re such a stupid!
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
you need a better dream
here’s mine:
1) Burriss SS, S
2) Lewis LF, L
3) Teixeira 1B, S
4) Molina C, R
5) Sandoval 3B, S
6) Rowand CF, R
7) Schierholtz RF, L
8) Frandsen 2B, R
9) P
My dream— maybe attainable if the Giants are willing to spend a little bit for Teixeira. Also it’s a big stretch to imagine Sandoval really sticking at 3b. And notice how Randy Winn has mysteriously disappeared, making room for Schierholtz. But it’s my dream, and i’m sticking to it.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Aug 26, 2008 3:20 PM PDT reply actions
no doubt Tex is an upgrade, but there’s too many first baseman in our future to justify that expenditure. You have TI and Bowker there now, and Sandoval may eventually wind up there after Posey arrives or even before. Add that to Angel Villalona down the road and it doesn’t make sense to pay Texeira the kind of money he is asking for.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
2 points:
A) dream lineup… in reality, no i wouldn’t pay teixeira the outrageous contract he’s likely to get. that said…
B) you can’t justify not making a run at a player of Teixeira’s caliber because the Giants have minor league prospects like Sandoval, Bowker, and Ishikawa waiting in the wings. Tex is a sure-fire middle of the order bat, something this team is sorely lacking. Sandoval and Bowker are players the Giants have moved from their more natural positions precisely because of the gaping hole at first while Ishikawa is, well, Ishikawa. All those type guys are maybes, Teixeira is a sure thing. I’ll add sure bets at the expense of maybe prospects any day.
long point made brief— yeah, i agree we probably shouldn’t be paying for any big name, big expense catching prospects with Sandoval and Posey in the organization. Ditto on starting pitchers. And we’ve got a fair number of decent options in the outfield, at least for the next few years. But every other position is fair game, in my estimation. If one of those youngsters at that position really did turn out, then you’d have a pleasant dilemma. But until that happens, you can’t assume that someone will emerge to fill any one of the gaping holes in the infield.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Aug 26, 2008 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Smoke, I’d be more concerned with Teixeira’s drop in production when he came to the NL, and his resurgance when he returned to the AL. It certainly seems he’s happier back in the junior circuit, and I doubt that (1) he’d want to return to the NL or (2) that he’d be interested in coming to San Francisco in particular.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. - Bob Lemon, 1981
If we have that roster and Bengie is still hitting clean up I think I’d lose it.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Aug 26, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
when you’re only able to add one heart of the order bat to the lineup, it stands to reason that the other half of your 3-4 combo will still suck.
I am rather fond of Rowand in the 6 spot and Lewis batting second, however. As for Burriss batting first, that’s mostly optimism on my part, but his .381 OBP in August is giving me some hope that he might actually be able to handle it.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Aug 26, 2008 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions
dream:
CF Sizemore
SS Ramirez
1B Pujols
2B Utley
LF Braun
3B Longoria
C McCann
RF Winn
realistic:
Frandsen/Denker 2B
Lewis LF
Ishikawa 1B
Sandoval C
Rowand CF
some dude they get for Molina/Winn 3B
Schierholtz/Bowker RF
Burriss SS
Winn in your dream line-up but not in the realistic line-up?
/brain explosion!
by AngelWillSaveUs on Aug 26, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
ya
i think your gettin the picture!
My dream lineup revolves around madison bumgarner…. Its gonna work out where he is a great 3b with 40 HR potential…..Dreaming is great!
by FutureGiantsGm24 on Aug 26, 2008 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions
if you are dreaming of a lineup that has Eugenio Velez in it I would go ahead and wake yourself up.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 26, 2008 3:30 PM PDT reply actions
Burris SS
Lewis LF
Rownd CF
Sandoval C
Schierholtz RF
Ishikawa/Bowker 1B
McPherson 3B
Frandsen 2B
Pitcher
tony la russa, is that you?
"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."
by i did my job on Aug 26, 2008 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
velez in the lineup
and this is exciting? show me the paint that is drying, now that is exciting.
www.myspace.com/cynemamusic.com
by Cynema the Band on Aug 26, 2008 3:48 PM PDT reply actions
That's a nightmare, not a dream
Although a nightmare certainly in the realm of possibility. Over/under on the HR leader in this offense is set at 15
leader? you mean total right?
www.myspace.com/cynemamusic.com
by Cynema the Band on Aug 26, 2008 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
LF – Lewis
2B – Frandsen
RF – Schierholtz
CF – Rowand
1B – Ishikawa
C – Sandoval
3B – Denker
SS – Burriss
by AndOnTheDrums... on Aug 26, 2008 3:55 PM PDT reply actions
I support this lineup for next year. I’m hoping Ryan Rohlinger blows the doors off the PCL and is our 3B in 2010, however.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. - Bob Lemon, 1981
“Sabean is smart and does not spend stupid money on players like Sabthia/Burrell/Dunn.”
did you really say that? hmmm, let’s see, Zito, $100+m. What would you consider dumb? yep sabathia, that would be stupid. he may win the NL Cy Young and only be in the league for 3 mos.
www.myspace.com/cynemamusic.com
by Cynema the Band on Aug 26, 2008 3:56 PM PDT reply actions
Still not a dumb idea
A Sabathia/Timmy/Cain/Sanchez/Zito rotation would be terrifying. We could actually make the playoffs with a rotation like that. That rotation beats the Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz rotation the Braves had way back when. And if Zito can stay returned to form, it’s even better.
No we can't
We’re on pace for ~70 wins. C.C. isn’t worth 15 wins over Correia.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
actually Correia's like 3-8 this year...
CC’s like 16-5. He actually might be…I get wins are a shitty stat, but Correia kinda sucks and CC’s throwing complete game shutouts for the Brewers every 5th day. Replacing him with a Cy Young contender would definitely win us a lot more games. Maybe not 15, but if you take into account that Pablo, TI, and Manny could be much better next year, our offense looks a lot less horrible. One of them might turn into a good hitter. If not, say all three of them become a little under league average. That’s still a huge improvement over what we had most of this year in a struggling Bowker at 1st, shitty Velez/inexperienced Manny at 2nd, and Castillo at 3rd. I just really like the sound of CC wanting to come here.
You are both overvaluing the effect one player can have on a team. ~15 wins is the difference between 2000 Pedro Martinez and 2005 Jose Lima. Sabathia is a great pitcher, but isn’t even close to Pedro Martinez at his peak, and Correia definitely isn’t as bad as Lima was in 2005.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
don't forget Avery!
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 27, 2008 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
This is your DREAM LINEUP? With Velez batting second and Frandsen at third!?
Man. Sabean really has done a fine job of beating down our expectations into a fine, rotten pulp.
What man? Which man? Who’s the man? When’s a man a man? What makes a man a man? Am I a man? Yes. Technically I am. - FotC
re
1 – Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Correia, Lowry
Wilson, Hinshaw, Espinelli, Sadler, Romo, Valdez, Matos
2 – Holm/Alfonzo/Rodriguez
3 – Ishikawa
4 – Velez
5 – Frandsen
6 – Ochoa
7 – Horwitz
8 – Lewis
9 – Schierholtz
AAA
2 – Sandoval
3 – Bowker
4 – Denker
5 – Rohlinger
6 – Burris
7 – EME
8 – Copeland
9 – Richardson
Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.
My guess is that Ben and Antoan would switch positions in that scenario; it’ll be interesting to see.
I see absolutely no future for Mr. Martinez-Esteve. His rag arm precludes much defensive prowess (ignoring whether or not his infamous inattention to defense has been remedied), and he seems to have absolutely no power. He is the winner of the Tony Torcato Memorial Award for Underperforming Expectations At Least Partially Due To Injury.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. - Bob Lemon, 1981
My dream 09 lineup
SS – Lillibridge
2B – Frandsen
LF – Nate
RF – Balentien
CF – Rowand
3B – McPherson (or possibly Beltre if the price worked)
1B – Ishikawa
C – Sandoval
Those don’t have to be the specific guys, but I view them as a group of players that can “redeem” their previous high values.
-I have Lillibridge landing here via Randy Winn
-Balentien landing here with a piece for Fred Lewis. That piece could potentially be Beltre (whose main appeal to me is his D and 2 comp picks) or some pitching, depending on what kind of value we can get. In my mind Balentien > Lewis over the next 5 years (and beyond for that matter)
-McPherson via free agency if we can’t get Beltre
I think it'd take a lot more than Fred Lewis
to get both Beltre and Balentien. I dunno if they’d trade just one of them for Lewis. Your right about Balentien being probably better than Lewis in a few years. I think the M’s think that too. And as for Beltre, I think some other team desperate for a 3B could outbid us.
yeah, certainly
That’s why Beltre is more of a “maybe”. I am certainly fine without him involved
by NeifiChicken on Aug 26, 2008 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
well i dunno about fred lewis for balentien straight up, either
Balentien’s a nice prospect. He looks like he could potentially hit better than Freddie. And at this point they hopefully realize their a poorly built team that won’t be succeeding for a while. I think their GM is on thin ice already, so I’d think any trade that could potentially be stupid is probably out of the question. I’d rather aim for Beltre alone and try that without losing Freddie.
Possibly, but I don't know
Balentien has failed hard in his two stints at the big league level whereas Fred Lewis has had success and is still 4+ years from free agency.
Probably not too likely, but certainly possible. Balentien’s value has to have taken somewhat of a hit due to hi MLB failures and maybe Lewis and a piece could get it done
by NeifiChicken on Aug 26, 2008 9:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I still don’t like Beltre. His numbers are decent, but his salary is astronomical. And since he came up at a very young age, I consider him an old 29. I can see an Alfonzo type decline in his near future. I know he has only one year left on his deal, but I don’t want to give up a Fred Lewis to get him. If they toss in Balentien I would do it, but I don’t think they would.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
LF Fred Lewis
CF Aaron Rowand
RF Randy Winn
SS J.J. Hardy
3B Adrian Beltre
1B Travis Ishikawa
C Bengie Molina
2B Kevin Frandsen/Travis Denker/whoever
Bench: Pablo Sandoval (backup C/1B/3B), Nate Schierholtz (backup LF/RF), Emmanuel Burris (backup 2B/SS), Dave Roberts (backup CF/pinch runner), Steve Holm… Eugenio Velez for a chuckle, I guess
(Pablo would get a good number of at-bats spelling Ishikawa and Molina, maybe a few spelling Beltre against righties. Nate would ideally play at least 30% of the time, and I’d totally be open to his taking Winn’s job if he proved deserving. Molina and Winn would be shopped fairly energetically.)
SP Tim Lincecum
SP Matt Cain
SP Barry Zito
SP Free Agent To Be Named Later
SP Noah Lowry/Kevin Correia
Bullpen: Brian Wilson and the usual suspects
(No above-minimum money spent on the bullpen… no reason for that right now.)
Essentially this roster would require making three big moves:
1) Trading a little something for Adrian Beltre. It’s contingent on what the Mariners would want. My guess is “not much”, as they’re likely to want to cut salary, and there wouldn’t be many teams gunning for him. If they demanded Schierholtz (which they wouldn’t), I’d be fine with that… any prospect more valuable than Schierholtz is off-limits, and if that kills a deal, maybe we try Pablo at third after all. I like Pablo at third if he can hang there… I’m not convinced he can.
2) Trading Jonathan Sanchez and something for J.J. Hardy. This is assuming that the Brewers do indeed want to make room for Escobar, and that a Sanchez package could get it done… I find both plausible, though not necessarily likely. What would be required in addition to Sanchez? Probably something pretty good… maybe a Henry Sosa. I’d throw Sosa in without blinking. I’m guessing a lot of people here would find that ridiculous.
I love Jonathan Sanchez. He’s fun. He’s not yet great… he has never had a major league year that’s above average. He has shown signs of improved control, but he hasn’t quite turned the corner yet. It’s not a given that he’ll become a truly elite player.
J.J. Hardy is only three months older than Sanchez. He had an extremely strong 2007, worth over six wins by WARP3. This year, he’s already worth over eight wins by WARP3, making him one of the twenty or so most valuable players in the game. Is that due to aberrantly high fielding numbers? Maybe. But even a six-win guy is worth a helluva lot. Hardy is, at the very worst, the eighth-best shortstop in the game, and he’s probably closer to fifth or sixth.
The great thing about Hardy is that he’s not gaudy. He doesn’t hit .300, he doesn’t slug .500, he doesn’t score or drive in 100 runs, and he’s not renowned the world over for his fielding. It means that you’d have a slight shot at getting him for below market value, and a shot at extending him for a bit less than he’s worth once you got him.
A trade like this would cost us two arms with considerable upside, and it’d force us to spend money more quickly, as Hardy will reach arbitration before Sanchez. There are real costs here. They’d be costs well worth paying for a player as good as J.J. Hardy. A move like this would do a lot to take the stink out of our lineup.
3) Signing a starting pitcher. The departure of Sanchez doesn’t create a hole so much as increase one… we don’t have much SP depth in the near future, though potentially good depth down the line. There are a million guys we could look at to fill this hole: Derek Lowe and Oliver Perez on the pricey side, reclamation projects like Hampton and Prior on the cheap side. This lineup would be excellent defensively; we might as well try to take advantage of that by giving ourselves a chance pitching-wise. It’d cost some money, but we have some money. There’s even an argument that we should sign two Mulder/Hampton/Prior types for cheap, though I don’t know how that’d go over.
Obviously a lot would depend on the identity of that starter, the development of our young ‘uns and a host of other things… but I think this would roughly be a .500 team. You could argue that it’s not worth shelling out money and any prospects to assemble a team like that, and you’d have a point. But this isn’t selling the farm to win in ‘09. It’s leveraging two not-sure-thing arms into a good shortstop — currently the rarest commodity in baseball — and adding to our core going forward, while not entirely ruling out being competitive next season. This team would at least be presentable in ’09, which would be a good thing for the team, attendance and our eyeballs.
Good for some interesting plane conversations.
by RougeGorrila on Aug 27, 2008 6:38 AM PDT up reply actions
not uninteresting
but I really doubt you are prying JJ Hardy from the brewers – especially not for a guy who hasn’t actually completed a whole season as a SP (I don’t expect Sanchez to pitch much more this year, with his shoulder).
I am also a bit skeptical about the ease of getting Beltre. Every year we hear about some guy that team X would be willing to dump… and they never really get traded.
Anyway, it’s alot of hope and thunder to get to a .500 team – and it’s probably better than what will actually happen.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
on Hardy
His point is valid. The Brewers LOVE Escobar, but the problem is that Escobar really is looking more at a 2010 arrival than an 09 arrival. Still, the idea makes a lot of sense for both sides…4 years of Sanchez for 3 years of Hardy. Not that bad, especially if we added a piece like Taschner.
I think he’s spot on there, but as he points out, it also creates a bigger hole in the rotation, so that is the one reason I’d be reluctant. I also think Sanchez has the chance to raise his value significantly if he can really put it together in 2009. I’m not talking Oliver Perez circa 2004, but the Sanchez equivalent. If that happened, we could absolutely get a ton for him by 2010, and there is a good chance prospects like Sosa or Alderson are getting closer to the bigs by then
by NeifiChicken on Aug 26, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions
should that really matter, though?
The Brewers are gonna suck bigtime next year unless they can retain one of their big pitchers. If both Sheets and CC leave, then they’re fucked. A rotation of Yovani Gallardo and a bullpen of …Eric Gagne?… isn’t enough for them to win. I don’t think they mind if it takes Escobar another year to make it to the bigs. They should be rebuilding their pitching staff next year anyways.
The Breweres love Escobar, true.
They can shift Hardy to 2b.
Hardy is 25, and has become one of the better SS in MLB. The only SS who are clearly better at this point are Hanley and Reyes.
Trading Hardy for Jonathan Sanchez would be IDIOTIC for the Brewers. If they really wanted to trade Hardy, there are many other teams that are in need of one of the better SS in MLB who will only be 26 next season
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
SS I think are clearly better than Hardy
1) Tulowitzki
2) Rollins
3) A healthy Furcal
SS’s that are around Hardy’s level:
1) Jhonny Peralta
2) Stephen Drew
3) Yunel Escobar
4) Derek Jeter (at least in short term)
5) Renteria (possibly/short term)
Nonetheless, no matter which way you slice it, Hardy is probably somewhere in the top 10 for shortstop’s, so yes, your point is very valid.
However, I do think the Brewers will trade him by 2010, and Sanchez + a small piece could be enough to get it done I feel, at least if Sanchez makes some strides by then.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions
I can see a Sanchez-Hardy swap
but you undervalue Beltre and his cost. Adrian Beltre brings perhaps the best 3B glove in the game and likely two draft picks, to go along with his 12 million dollar tag.
The asking price was too high at the break, why would it be any lower now?
I have him listed in my dream too, but only because we are giving up a major piece.
by NeifiChicken on Aug 26, 2008 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
The asking price was too high at the break, why would it be any lower now?
Well, the “braintrust” atop the Mariners at the break was an interim GM who was terrified of doing anything that’d upset people and cost him his job. Whoever they have in place this winter will probably have much clearer marching orders, and given their $110M+ payroll and shittiness, I’m assuming “cut costs” will be among those orders. You may be right, though — it might take too much to snag him.
fair enough
but yeah, the two draft picks are still quite an appealing piece of value. In truth, that is really where my interest is peaked. The “cut costs” plan will certainly be in effect, but Sexson is off the books and I think Washburn, Batista, and Silva will be the primary targets to move (although the latter two will be hard to move)
by NeifiChicken on Aug 26, 2008 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions
There is additional incentive for the Ms to trade Beltre; he has been absolutely horrible at Safeco. They could probably find a 3B for a quarter the price of Beltre to do just as badly.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
There is additional incentive for the Ms to trade Beltre; he has been absolutely horrible at Safeco. They could probably find a 3B for a quarter the price of Beltre to do just as badly.
If they find a third baseman who is worse overall, he will also be worse at Safeco.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
Not necessarily.
Some hitters are better suited for some parks than others. For $12.9M Beltre is hitting .250/.307/.412 at Safeco. I would think that for $3.25M the Ms could find a guy who is could hit .250 at Safeco. The replacement would be far worse on the road, but the Ms could save around $9M. Since they look to be rebuilding they might be willing to trade.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
There aren’t a lot of hitters whose swings are geared to hit decently in a park that kills hitters. And besides, it’s not like the Mariners, of all teams, could find one (or the Giants hahalolwtfcanihazreel3rdbasemanplz).
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
I'm not suggesting
that they could find a hitter to hit better than Beltre, only one that hits as bad.
Greetings, Marklar! I am Marklar! This is Marklar.
before the injury to sanchez, i’d never have made that deal. now that the injury has happened, i’m sure the brewers would never make that deal. imo, we’d be best served keeping sanchez, hoping he can stay healthy and consistent next season, and spinning him off in a deal next offseason, just in time for the arrival of timmy ii and madbum in 2010
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Aug 26, 2008 6:36 PM PDT up reply actions
This is the most interesting lineup in the thread, but is trading for Hardy more efficient than just signing Furcal or somesuch? Don’t get me wrong, through. I like the idea of adding a good, young shortstop to our collection of core players for the future, and Hardy might just be undervalued.
Yeah, throwing a bunch of money at Furcal and keeping Sanchez seems clearly better than trading for Hardy and throwing a bunch of money at Lowe or Perez. It will be interesting to see what sort of contract Oliver Perez gets this off-season, since he and Sanchez are basically identical pitchers.
rumors say
Perez could be looking at 4/50 or 5/60
Although, identical is probably too strong a claim at this point, but there is probably no pitcher in baseball that Sanchez compares more favorably to. Perez is just a bit more refined at this point
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I’d MUCH rather have J.J. Hardy and Oliver Perez than Rafael Furcal and Jonathan Sanchez… the first combo is significantly younger and healthier than the second.
Money is the key variable. Neifi quotes 4/50 and 5/60 as possible contract sizes for Perez below; that sounds about right to me. What will Furcal get? Honestly, I have no idea — I’d imagine that most teams wouldn’t want to give him more than two years. But I imagine his per-year figure will be in that same $12M range, and maybe a bit higher, depending on health reports.
I guess the best argument for Furcal/Sanchez over Hardy/Perez is flexibility… you wouldn’t be as likely to have to commit money to a guy for, say, the 2012 season. But I think there’s a risk of being overcautious about our future. We’re not going to have five homegrown Cy Young candidates in 2012… pitching prospects just don’t pan out that surely. There’s a good chance we’d want a guy like Oliver Perez in 2012.
Regardless, a Sanchez/Hardy swap doesn’t absolutely require us to pony up for a pricy starter. It just converts an arm into a bat, at the toughest position to fill.
I prefer Hardy and 1 year gambles
Perez is just too much of a wildcard. I wouldn’t like investing 50-60 million into a guy that struggles to have a 2.00 K/BB ratio.
I’d prefer just taking some gambles on two, or even three if it’s cheap enough, of the following:
1) Mark Prior (although I’d think about the pen with him)
2) Matt Clement
3) Jason Jennings
4) Carl Pavano
5) Kris Benson
6) Bartolo Colon
Obviously with all of those guys it’s more of a question of health, but depending on what medical reports say versus cost, that’s who I am interested in.
Worst case: we lose some money, give starts to the Joey Martinez, Pat Misch, Cowart, Hammond crowd
best Case: one, possibly two can be healthy enough to help us, raise his value, and be traded off for a young player
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions
I more or less agree. Were I the Giants, I’d actually target Lowe over Perez… Lowe is EXTREMELY consistent, and our park and defense (at least in this scenario) would only help him. But reclamation projects probably make even more sense than an upper-tier guy.
The only reason I’d advocate even thinking about a guy like Lowe is that I’m just not convinced that we couldn’t make a play for ‘09 — we could, depending on what the Dodgers and D-Backs do in the offseason. But if they retain their new sluggers, the division’s probably out of reach, and a big signing wouldn’t make as much sense (though I think there’d still at least be an argument for it).
I guess that's where we differ
I view ‘09 as a lost cause. AZ’s young hitters will just keep getting better and they still have the to ptier of their rotation in tact.
Otherwise I’d definitely agree on Lowe, who is a great starter. But I see Lowe getting either 3/40 or 4/48, because he is just that steady.
To me, that’s just more years than I’d want to commit to a guy entering his late 30’s, even though I think Lowe should age better than most. If I’m the Yankees I can afford to take that risk, especially with the short term success in mind, but the Giants can’t.
Still, if you gave me the option of Perez at 4/50 or 5/60 and Lowe at 3/40 or 4/48, I’d go with Lowe easily
by NeifiChicken on Aug 27, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions
You are missing the point
It doesn’t matter what the lineup looks like. The steps necessary to a division winner:
1) Create a transmogrifier
2) Spawn 9 more Enchanters (4 for the lineup, 5 for the pen)
3) Watch the greatest baseball imaginable.
Oh, and trade Matt Cain for Player N.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
yeah, on 2nd thought, maybe not the best idea
the spawns would just get Tim into trouble.
STEVE HOLM! refuses to be the odd man out.
by UnleashTheGore on Aug 26, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
All we really need to do is pour water on Tim Lincecum, and then be careful not to feed any of them after midnight.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I will pay $5
for a Lincecum Mogwai photoshop (and not the band, either; the cute li’l creature)
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
can we make some hitters too?
Even if the pitching’s great, it’s still painful watching an offense struggle against mediocre pitching.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
RF – Winn – think he thrives in lead-off
2B – Denker – some patience & pop
LF – Lewis
SS – Wood – traded Molina & other
3B – C. Davis – traded Sanchez and Bowker/Schierholtz – the other to be bench bat, fallback for Ish.
CF – Rowand – Whatever, another waste of $$….
1B – Ishikawa
C – Sandoval – perfect 8 hitter, right? He can hit anythink they throw. Lots of IBBs me thinks.
I’m open to getting Burrell for 1B if Ishikawa needs to be packaged in a deal and the Giants don’t mind spending some cash.
Can also see the Giants moving a lot of their B-type prospects as add-ons to get some ML talent (EME, Snyder, Pucetas, Witter, J-Mart, etc.)
just wondering
c davis = who?
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
I don't the the Rangers wanna trade Davis
He’s looking to be a pretty friggin good 3B for years too come.
Not too sure on that either.
Also not too sure on his Defense @ 3B. If his D can keep him at 3B, I wonder if Sanchez is enough. Everyone knows Texas needs pitching, so I think they’d move Davis in the right deal. Perhaps add Sosa and then aak them to include a smaller piece in the deal.
It's not either way
They’d want like Cain or Lincecum for Davis. Davis is like a Matt LaPorta type player. You don’t toss those for anything less than a potential Cy Young winner. His defense doesn’t matter at all.
I disagree about the defense.
If he can’t stick at 3B, his value as a 1B only is lower. The dearth of good 3B around the majors makes this even more so. Sosa and Sanchez have the potential to be a good 2-3 punch and I think that has value equivalent to Davis.
I think this is especially true when Texas can replace Davis’ production in other areas of their lineup because of their home ballpark and willingness of FA hitters to sign there.Just like the Giants have to overpay for hitters in FA, Texas likewise has to do the same for pitching. I think the potential of Sanchez and Sosa as cheap cost -controlled pitchers are worth Davis.
no they're not
Sanchez and Sosa at the peak of their potential would be. Both of them on the DL don’t help too much. Which is where they were. They’re both injury risks. And either way, even if they hadn’t gotten injured, go ahead and try posting that on the Rangers fan site and see how many laughs you get. What you’re saying is like saying that when Villalona gets to the majors and hits 15 homers in 60 games that we should trade him for Homer Bailey or someone like that. I get that the Rangers need pitching, but they could get a fuckload more for Davis. They could’ve gotten CC Sabathia with Chris Davis if they wanted him enough. Why would they suffice for Sanchez and Sosa? And another thing, a good hitter’s a good hitter. It doesn’t matter if they’re at 3rd or 1st if they’re that great of a hitter. Davis looks to be a great hitter.
Chris Davis still plays 3rd?
I know he did in the minors, but I thought he HAD to be moved for defense.
Either way, we’re not getting him
by NeifiChicken on Aug 26, 2008 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions
you guys didn't get the memo
Brian Sabean doesn’t make big trades anymore, and he doesn’t trade young pitchers like Jonathan Sanchez. He said Sanchez, Cain and Lincecum were untouchable at the deadline, and I doubt he would change his mind after the season. Right now we’re watching a rotation that includes Matt Palmer, Barry Zito and Kevin Correia. The “great” young pitching we have in the minors is either not there or a few years away. Trades are fun to talk about, but how many fans have ever correctly predicted a trade??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
lineup
I’d like to see Winn and Molina traded if and only if good prospects are received in return, and I don’t particularly care if they are near-mlb ready. I don’t think that is going to happen, so both are more likely to be moved around the deadline.
SS Burriss (if he keeps progressing with getting on base)
RF Winn
LF Lewis
C Molina
3b Sandoval (if he can stick there, and I don’t think he can).
CF Rowand
1B Ishikawa
2B Frandsen
Secondary thoughts:
I’m okay with Burriss at 2nd, if he beats out Frandsen and Denker, and that could happen. SS would still be a problem, and I’m okay with Ochoa as a stopgap for the next year. light hitting, but at least the D is good.
………..
Future concerns: (and this isn’t really a consideration until 2010 or 11)
Don’t assume Villalona is stuck at 1b. There are many indications the giants think of him as 3b in the future.
If Sandoval can’t stick at 3rd, then having him as the back up C, with AB’s at 1st, and sometimes 3rd would be okay.
The idea of either Bowker or Schierholtz in RF scares me, as does Lewis. RF in at&t needs a good defensive RF.
Ishikawa and Bowker fight it out for 1b in the spring.
Lineup
Lewis RF
Rowand CF
Ishikawa 1B
Molina C
Sandoval 3B
Schierholtz LF
Burriss 2B
Ochoa SS
This lineup isn’t very good, but it is young and could eventually develop, particularly when the younger prospects finally arrive to augment it.
My Dream Lineup
C – Einstein
1B – Optimus Prime
2B – My old cat
SS – Frankenstein
3B – Gandhi
LF – Abraham Lincoln
CF – Mark Twain
RF – Fox Mulder
No way Mulder has the arm to play right.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 27, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I want to believe, but the conspiracy convinced me he can’t do it.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
My Dream Lineup
1 — The one where I show up to school naked
2 — The one where I have to take a test, but I haven’t studied
3 — The one where I have no tongue
4 — The one where all my teeth fall out
5 — The one with the talking unicorn
6 — The wet kind
7 — The one where I wake up falling
8 — The one where I’m having doggie-style sex, and then she turns around and I realize it’s Mom
9 — Lincecum
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 27, 2008 1:24 PM PDT reply actions 9 recs
8 — The one where I’m having doggie-style sex, and then she turns around and I realize it’s Mom
That is HOT.
D:
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 27, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Did someone say, clitoris?
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 27, 2008 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
So, how did Grant feel about you referring to female genitalia in a post? I don’t recall that question ever being answered.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
hey whatever became of kenshin1? don’t see E around much anymore either. anybody know? e was funny
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Aug 27, 2008 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
“So, how did Grant feel about you referring to female genitalia in a post?”
Aroused.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 27, 2008 5:39 PM PDT up reply actions
That was strange and amusing.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 28, 2008 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions
If thats the lineup...
Cain and Timmy boy are both gonna lose 20 games with ERAs under 3
Right you are Ken
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