I'm Sure The McCoven Will Disagree
but Bruce Jenkins is making sense.
over 3 years ago
giantsrainman
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That's not sense
That’s reactionary claptrap and name-calling.
Thanks anyway.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
no
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
>If one thing characterized the great pitchers of the past, from Bob Feller to Warren Spahn to Tom Seaver, it’s that they learned how to win.
This is where it fails. Utterly and completely. Everything else is just failwrapping.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
Dammit!
I’m just going to stop carroting this crap.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 25, 2008 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions
start bok choying it?
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Aug 26, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Dumb analogy department
I am definitely not telling my surgeon “finish what you started”. I’d really rather get sewed up by whoever’s best qualified to do so at the moment, even if it’s not the same one who cut me open in the first place.
Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.
Makes sense for a Dodger fan. I mean how else would want to destroy a long term Giants advantage?
If you think that’s "interesting stuff" wander over and take the effort to read this.
Granted the person does not have the resources to conclusively finish his study but you think its just a strange that the A’s ( local mass media darling team) has been completive with a lowish budget in the same era they have had lower then Average burn out rate in their young arms? And you hear not of this "rub some dirt in it kid" crap from over there. Perhaps new means more efficient once in a while. I have had enough of the Torres development plans myself. And even Marchail had to hang them up earlier because of such use patterns.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
damn, this is good stuff.
I haven’t looked up the Woolner piece yet, but I will. But this is relatively compelling:
We know little for certain about what causes pitching injuries. Here’s what we know that’s supported by current research, especially Woolner’s 2001 work:
* Throwing over a 100 pitches in a game is associated with a short-term decline in performance by that pitcher.
* Arm injuries are correlated with the number of stressful pitches a pitcher throws — that is, pitches in a start over 100.
* Additionally, we know that trauma like a blow or a fall can cause both tendon and rotator cuff tears. Cumulative wear is not the only cause.
* Players conceal and lie about their injuries when they believe it is in their best interest.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
I think
>> * Players conceal and lie about their injuries when they believe it is in their best interest.
Is especially huge because I’ve heard it used countless times as a rebuttal against pitch counts that “Player so-and-so hasn’t complained about being hurt or being affected!”. But, the thing is, that athletes try and play though injuries all the time when they value it to be worth it. Jason Schmidt is a great example, I remember one game that he went out and lobbed 85mph fastballs for 5 innings, only to state after the game that “His arm didn’t feel right”.
So, when Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain tell me how “strong” they feel, I can’t help but take it with a large grain ’o salt.
What gets even “scarier” is some day jot down the what the A’s have gotten from those arms once they left the A’s organization. If they had a higher burn out rate, even up to league average, that’s a lot of talent infusion ( for system depth if nothing else) they don’t get 3-5 years down the road.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Aug 26, 2008 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions
That was a horrible article. He could have a decent point (about watching the pitcher to know when he should be taken out, not going strictly by pitch counts), but he ruins it by bringing in all his regular bullshit. Bruce Jenkins is an absolute joke of a baseball writer. He does nothing but name-call and spout cliches with no proof to back up his claims. He’s a decent writer for tennis and a few other sports, but I’ve never read anything he’s written about baseball and come away thinking, “Oh yeah, that was a good point.”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
some tl;dr, now that I've thought about it for a bit...
There’s so much in this article that is just ridiculous. I like how he says that the heavy workload for Prior and Wood had nothing to do with their breakdowns, but gives no proof and offers no alternate explanation. Same with Schmidt.
I also like how he hails Yost for leaving CC Sabathia out there after large numbers of pitches for no real reason except to get the CG and finish what he started, while ignoring now gassed CC was in the playoffs last year after his heavy workload in the regular season.
In addition, I continue to find it ridiculous that members of the media act as though Cain and Lincecum are being babied. They are averaging the 5th and 6th most pitches per game in the major leagues. The onus is not on Bruce Bochy to leave them in for 130-140 pitch outings just to get the complete game, it’s on them to not already be at 110 pitches every time they reach the 7th inning. They both seem to recognize this, judging from their comments in the media.
The thing he ignores about Sabathia and Halladay and their large numbers of complete games is the fact that (a few 130 pitch games aside), their CGs generally aren’t of the insane pitch count variety. They certainly do throw them on occasion, but most of the time, they finish their complete games between 100-110 pitches. I remember a game a few years ago where Halladay completed a game with only like 97 pitches. Once Cain and Lincecum learn how to conserve their pitches during the early parts of the game (how many times have we seen them have 20 pitch first and second innings before settling down, but ending up at 110 after 7 because of that early laboring?) they’ll start to throw more complete games.
ANOTHER thing to keep in mind is the fact that in the National League, in the late innings, it’s often a good idea to pinch hit for your pitcher. This isn’t really the case in the American League, which of course, explains why there are more CGs over there.
Jenkins always does bullshit, dishonest stuff like this. I liked that article earlier in the year where he said that the team is better with Aaron Rowand versus Barry Bonds. Did he have any proof of this? The team was on pace to finish with a worse record than it did last year. Well, Aaron Rowand is a LEADER and Bonds isn’t and goshdarnit, the atmosphere in the clubhouse is so much better now! And that was pretty much the extent of his argument.
And anyone who busts out the nerds/geeks/mom’s basement stuff should be ignored immediately anyway.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Aug 26, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
oh and I like how he gives all these examples of players who pitched a lot of complete games (Valenzuela, Krukow, Smoltz) and … subsequently had arm problems.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
to sum up:
jenkins = douchebag
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Aug 26, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
+thiawtcis1
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
Thanks for this
Now I don’t have to do it. I love how he points to 3 examples of overuse of pitchers that later breaked down as coincidents, plus uses their response as evidence it wasn’t that. Like they are going to say “Yeah, he (Baker, Alou) fucked up my career.” Jenkins is a joke.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Aug 26, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
The thing is that there are a zillion reasons to explain why Prior and Wood may have blown up that don’t involve pitch counts. You could say that Prior had a series of flukey injuries that forced him to alter his mechanics, which lead to serious arm injuries. You could say that Wood threw a large number of breaking balls that were harsh on his elbow and that he probably would have gotten injured if he was held to 80 pitches, 100 pitches or 120. You could say that both of them had poor mechanics to begin with and no amount of pitch count conservatism was going to keep them from getting injured at some point. You could say a million other things.
But Jenkins doesn’t bother.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
sorry, it submitted before I was done
It’s just the sort of lazy writing and analysis that I’ve become accustomed to with him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
rainman: you're part of the mccoven
why are you hitting yourself?
quit hitting yourself!
"ever so cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"
by The Gene Hackman on Aug 26, 2008 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
What are you talking about?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, nice handle. ;) a/s/l?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Teehee, 23/m/san rafael, u?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Same. Whatcha doing Friday?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m free, you wanna stop by?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m already there, baby. Now, I’m gonna rock that body so hard.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Oooooh, yeah. You rock it. You rock it good.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
eeewwww.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
It gets better in season 2 when I buy a webcam.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
You incorrigible slut.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Since everything’s obviously wrong with sports today, Bruce Jenkins just needs to hop in a time machine and go back to his beloved “good ol’ days” once and for all.
by rightcenterfielder on Aug 26, 2008 10:44 AM PDT reply actions
Subtitle to that article:
Cause and Effect: Proving It Isn’t True Through Repeated Assertion
I mean, seriously. I’m a pitch-count agnostic, but if you want to tell me that pitch counts don’t matter, back it up with more than a list of memories. Even worse, don’t include examples that hurt your thesis. Jack Chesbro went from 400+ innings to 300 to 200 to out of the game. Mike Krukow pitched 10 complete games! …and then never pitched over 200 innings again. Fernando Valenzuela? You mean the one who was washed up before he was 30?
Convince me with data, not anecdotes.
That’s what annoys me about the argument of: “Player X threw a zillion complete games in the 60’s! If he made it, then everyone else should be able to make it as well and anyone who disagrees is babying pitchers!” styled arguments because you’re looking at a guy that survived the abuse and ignoring the countless number of players who’s careers were ended early by that same abuse.
It’s like saying: “Check out this shark attack survivor. He’s totally alive. Hey, want to go swimming with steaks wrapped around our legs?”
The worst thing is that Jenkins isn’t even doing that. He’s just printing a list of guys who went swimming with sharks – even if their legs got bitten off.
It’s like he’s trying to be unbelievably ridiculously godawful.
There really aren’t words for what a hack he is.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
Using the Bruce Jenkins style of arguing,
perhaps it’s possible to use that very argument to convince HIM to swim with the sharks while wearing a steak-covered wetsuit?
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
That’s not how you go swimming?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
this is exactly right
not everyone believes in pitch counts, so I don’t think there’s much consensus on it, despite it’s wide usage. On the other hand, it isn’t obvious that they shouldn’t be used. Unfortunately, Jenkins takes the view that being a real man is the key to throwing complete games. He listed a bunch of HOFers. He didn’t mention Mike Norris.
He also could have cited some studies (like the Bill James ones) that would have supported his arguments. instead he resorted to name calling (lunatics!), very selective examples, and Ralph Barbieri’s tirade after ONE game as evidence that pitch counts are a bad idea.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 26, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
My favorite part is the Schmidt rebuttal (?).
Point: Schmidt’s 144-pitch complete game shredded his arm.
Counterpoint: “I’d do it all over again,” Schmidt recently said.
Point: HUH?!?!?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
This article made me stop in my tracks, cancel today’s post, and work on something longer that probably isn’t going to finished today.
So you can think Jenkins for that.
there has to be a picture of a bunch of in bred pygmies dancing around a statue of horses arse on this interz netz some were…
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Aug 26, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, they aren't dancing and it's not a statue...
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Aug 26, 2008 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
A, uh, big look at, uh, the things that are and the things that aren’t.
(I didn’t have a topic, started in on the Jenkins, and then realized it wasn’t going to be finished today.)
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 26, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions
An in depth look at Sliders: Season 1.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 26, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
The most appalling thing about Jenkins’s approach to the question is how focused it is on the individual. He throws in some boilerplate about “learning to win,” but you can tell he doesn’t much care about the long-term success of the team. It’s all about “finishing what you started” and the pursuit of some manly existential moment — “knowing the game is in your control,” etc. Basically, he’s praising pitchers for the me-first mentality that sportswriters spend so much time deriding.
And the complete ignorance ( as in to purposely ignore) the teams self interest which should be to protect these rare commodities ( Tim, Cain and some extent Sanchez).
But its Jenkins. When ever he write about the Giants take again of salt the size of Coit Tower with it.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
Under no circumstances
Should anyone with a brain read the comments posted to the SFGate article.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
WHY WOULD I TREAT THAT AS A DARE
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
I think it would be incredible if he threw us all off in part 2 and presented a well written argument using biomechanics research.
I've played at the highest levels!*
My experience is an exact parallel to the major leagues!
*of community little league and pickup softball.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
I was going to shoot him an e-mail about how idiotic this story was but didn’t know where to start and knew it was a futile mission. Why the F did I click on this fanshot? I was so upset earlier today but had completely forgotten about it. Fuck you Bruce Jenkins.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Aug 26, 2008 3:31 PM PDT reply actions
I was driving home and listening to KNBR
The Razor and Mr. T previewed an interview with Jenkins at 5:00 (maybe it’s on the website now). Barbieri mentioned this two-part (this amazes me) article about pitch counts and Tolbert talked about how they would probably just sit around agreeing with each other and I knew both the article and the interview was going to be extremely painful to read/listen to.
It appears I was right on the first one. I think I will avoid the interview.
Only 849 games until the end of Zito's contract
A lot of the McCoven are not pro-pitch count, the hive mind is a little divided on this matter.
That’s a stupid fucking article though. Bruce Jenkins should be fired for that garbage.
you can't block the Bocock
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