Why not J-Roll?

by El Profesor del Diamante on Aug 24, 2008 9:02 AM PDT

The Giants look to have developed decent depth in starting pitching, at catcher, and to a lesser extent, at the infield corners. But the middle infield still looks like a black hole to me, especially offensively: I just don't see Burriss, Velez, Denker, Ochoa, or Bocock as any better than bench players over the long term.

So why not try to swing a deal for Jimmy Rollins? His relationship with the Phillies organization and fans seems to have soured. Maybe a change of scenery would benefit him. I don' think that he'll replicate his 2007 MVP season (200+ hits, 41 steals, .296/.344/.531), but I imagine that we could expect something similar to his 2004-06 performances: .285/.340/.475, 185 hits, 35 steals. He makes $8M per, through 2011 and is 29.

The Phils' perennial need is starting pitching: I'd certainly be willing to give up Sosa, and perhaps a lower rated prospect, for Rollins. I might even be willing to throw in someone who doesn't fit into the Giants' long-term plans (Molina, Aurilia). Would Alderson be too generous?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Blast from the past.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 24, 2008 9:07 AM PDT 0 recs

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2008/8/22/598878/just-a-dream-or-a-real-pos

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 24, 2008 9:07 AM PDT up 0 recs

What the Hell are you smoking?

I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..

by lmaozedong on Aug 24, 2008 9:09 AM PDT up 0 recs

Jimmy Rollins is the new A-Rod/Dallas McPherson/Hank Blalock

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 24, 2008 9:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

I’ll give credit to El Professor though, at least he wrote his post in easy to read English and didn’t throw in a bunch of 75s!

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 24, 2008 9:16 AM PDT up 0 recs

BLESS HIM for that! I mean it!

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Aug 24, 2008 9:58 AM PDT up 0 recs

I’ll also give him credit for not suggesting we trade Cain. This “trade for Jimmy Rollins” thread is heads and tails above the last.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 24, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up 0 recs

I disagree

Trading Cain for Rollins is less crazy than trading Rollins for Sosa and a lower rated prospect.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Aug 24, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

I didn’t say the alternative was realistic. I was just glad to see “not-Cain” as opposed to “Cain.” It’s a step in the right direction.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 24, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

Sosa > Cain?

Can somebody please explain how

Trading Cain for Rollins is less crazy than trading Rollins for Sosa and a lower rated prospect.

makes sense?

by silentearth36 on Aug 24, 2008 8:04 PM PDT up 0 recs

It's not. The SUGGESTION that trading Cain would be better for us is less crazy.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Aug 24, 2008 8:38 PM PDT up 0 recs

I mean more crazy.

In other words, he’s not saying it’s a better idea to trade Cain; he’s saying that droning on about trading Cain is crazier than this fanpost.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Aug 24, 2008 8:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

No, I think he’s saying the idea that the Phillies would accept Sosa + lower rated prospect for Rollins is crazier than the idea that the Phillies would accept Cain for Rollins.

Right?

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 24, 2008 8:42 PM PDT up 0 recs

Not exactly

The idea that the Phillies should/would trade Rollins for Sosa + lower rated prospect is crazier than the idea that the Giants should/would trade Cain for Rollins.

Cain – Rollins < Rollins – (Sosa + lower rated prospect).

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Aug 25, 2008 5:06 AM PDT up 0 recs

Sosa = good

Cain = pile of suck

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 24, 2008 9:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

I didn't read the previous post

But spent an hour talking about this with my roommate yesterday. We went with the assumption that Philly has a dire need for SP and if they moved rollins would need speed and comparable power. I think that Sanchez & Lewis might be those 2 elements (though I agree that Lewis isn’t nearly the offensive threat that Rollins is). If the Phillies asked for more than those two, I don’t think I’d offer anything more than Jessie English (he’s the guy struggling in AA ball CT after getting promoted right?) or Matt Downs (AAA now right?). Your thoughts?

Down in Front Meat!

by homerdrew415 on Aug 24, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up 0 recs

Giants 09

While having this discussion, my roomie & I decided that the caveat to this discussion was that the Gigantes would be adding 30 million in payroll this offseason (bringing us to bonds era levels) and sign Furcal to a 2-3 year deal (at Andruw Jones levels), Burrel to a 3-4 year deal (probably at Rowand money unfortunately), Rafael Soriano (paying low closer $ for a set up guy who might end up closing if Wilson gets hurt or traded). Hey who cares, it’s not my money. Besides, Sabean has less than a full year to show the Bill Neukum that he’s the man to be GM. That means a team that finishes next year with 80ish wins and contends for a playoff spot. Otherwise, goodbye Sabes, Hello DePodesta/fill in the blank GM

Down in Front Meat!

by homerdrew415 on Aug 24, 2008 12:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

Oh and how could I forget

In my magical land of fantasyland and flying puppydogs ridden by unicorns, as soon as the Angels don’t pick up Vlad’s 15 million dollar option, the Gigantes swoop in and throw down a 4 year deal worth $13 million per.

2009 Western Division Champs!

Down in Front Meat!

by homerdrew415 on Aug 24, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up 0 recs

No offense, but I don’t want any of those moves. Why did we even flirt with rebuilding this season if they’re going to run out there and overpay for a bunch of mediocre veterans?? Vlad is the only decent player on your list and alot of people think he’s just going to be able to DH going forward.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Aug 24, 2008 7:13 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'd like to think that the Vets on the FA list i put forth are only going

to be with the team until 2011 at the latest, at which time the Younglings will be ready to leave the Gigantes Academy and move along to the Gigantes council…I love the idea of Vlad though…And yes, I know Furcal is coming of back surgery, and I’d be scared to trade for him, but not of spending Sue Burns’ money for her or Pat Burrel( are there 2 l’s in his name?).

Down in Front Meat!

by homerdrew415 on Aug 24, 2008 7:33 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'd rather have CC

and nobody else next offseason, than all the guys you mentioned. cost would probably be less too.

by sam23 on Aug 25, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

I don’t think I’d offer anything more than Jessie English (he’s the guy struggling in AA ball CT after getting promoted right?)

No, you’re thinking of Ben Snyder.

or Matt Downs (AAA now right?)

Matt Downs is now back at A+.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Aug 24, 2008 12:46 PM PDT up 0 recs

It's clear I should never discuss marginal prospects

on an empty stomache

Down in Front Meat!

by homerdrew415 on Aug 24, 2008 7:34 PM PDT up 0 recs

If you were the Phillies, would you give up one of the best shortstops in baseball, a five-tool franchise player, for a couple of mid-grade prospects?

by rotorueter on Aug 24, 2008 9:42 AM PDT 0 recs

is this a trick question?

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 24, 2008 9:47 AM PDT up 0 recs

These aren't the shortstops you're looking for

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 24, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up 0 recs

(Psst... did you miss the part about the Phillies needing pitching?)

(Hence they will give any non-pitcher in exchange for a pitcher, or preferably two pitchers. Do you guys not speaky de math very well?)

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Aug 24, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up 0 recs

Zito Zito Zito!!!! for Utley

by CB30 on Aug 24, 2008 10:00 AM PDT up 0 recs

NOW WE'RE MAKING SENSE HERE

by rotorueter on Aug 24, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up 0 recs

I suspect the Giants would need to pay some of Zito’s salary.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 24, 2008 10:11 AM PDT up 0 recs

Well, sure, but only $100K per year, maybe $110K at most.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Aug 24, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up 0 recs

Exactly. NOW you're getting it.

And if that doesn’t get the deal done, throw in either Sadler or Matos.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Aug 24, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up 0 recs

but Palmer has the upside so they would want him

by CB30 on Aug 24, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up 0 recs

If I were the Phillies?

Yes.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 24, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up 0 recs

Why not?

here’s why not:

he’ll cost a buttload in a trade. Sosa and a low-rated prospect will not even come close to getting that done. The Phillies are in a stretch wherein they are contenders each year. They’re not going to trade their leader offensive catalyst for some A-ball pitchers. They’d most certainly want Cain or Lincecum plus others. They’re not looking for a salary dump while trying to win the WS.

Adding Jimmy Rollins wont’ make this team a contender. We’re not Jimmy Rollins away from the division title. we still have big holes at the corner infield and right field slots. 2b is still a question mark. The bullpen is still far from being reliable.

Overall, it wouldn’t fit into the Giants rebuilding philosophy.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 24, 2008 9:48 AM PDT 0 recs

We’re not close to contending yet we keep Winn, 34, who we could have a POTENTIAL replacement for.

I agree with you, it’s just that these ideas don’t seem to apply to the whole team.

by giants9107 on Aug 24, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up 0 recs

how is that relevant?

And keeping him makes sense. Nobody wants him and his huge contract. That means we either release him or keep him. I’d rather keep him and see if we can get some compensation picks when he becomes a FA.

by boonitez on Aug 24, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up 0 recs

What I was trying to get at is that Winn has and had trade value, and I think we failed to get the job done. So what if we unloaded him for salary relief, that money could go to development and we’d essentially gain a prospect in Schierholtz. Since we aren’t contending, what value would Winn have for us next year? Is his value going to get any higher as he gets older? Granted, one year isn’t that much difference, but a 35 y/o OF shouldn’t be on a rebuilding, especially when we have someone with potential. And you Nate doubters, what more do you want him to prove in AAA, you want him to hit .350 with 40 HRs or something?

by giants9107 on Aug 24, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up 0 recs

obviously, i completely agree with the overall message here. a trade for rollins isn’t the answer— the phillies would want too much, and he wouldn’t be that missing piece to a championship team for us. But I am getting a little bit sick of the whole “[player x] isn’t going to help us win a WS/Pennant/NL West title in ’09” argument. It could be argued that even a player of, say, the Albert Pujols variety wouldn’t help us do that, but I don’t think that’s really a sound argument against acquiring solid vets.

Look at the Cubs— signing Soriano didn’t help them win in ‘07, he wasn’t the one missing piece to building a championship contender. But he is helping them win in ‘08 and was a solid cornerstone type addition. So my problem with this line of thinking is that it can be too short sighted sometimes— it isn’t in this case, but in some other cases I think it has been. The Giants need to look towards acquiring players who can be contributors both now and years into the future and not worry about whether any one of them is THE missing piece. If the price is right, and the player is good, make the deal, regardless of what it means for the immediate future.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Aug 24, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

good point

about player x not being the missing piece. Sometimes, a team is just a player or two away from being a serious contender and making an extra effort like a big trade or spending a few more dollars than it is worth on a free agent is a good gamble. If the team has a bunch of holes, signing that one big free agent (or acquiring him via trade) doesn’t really make that much sense, or it makes much less sense. Obviously, adding a cornerstone type player is good, but if you had Pujols and no one else, it’d kinda be a big waste until he was surrounded with better players.

Arguably, Soriano was that guy for the Cubs last year, as they went from 6th place and 66 wins (2006) to 1st place and 85 wins (2007). Obviously, there were other maneuvers and a managerial change that also contributed, but adding Soriano was a huge addition.

However, the Giants are several pieces away in pitching and offensively, and getting Rollins would weaken the team in other areas, especially starting pitching, and not put them appreciably closer to where they’d like to be, i.e., the playoffs. SS would be solid or exceptional for a few seasons with Rollins, but those other positions I mentioned would still be below average to average and not help that much in the short run.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 24, 2008 5:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

I agree with this too. You’re not supposed to acquire good players because they’re not singlehandedly good enough to put you over the top?? Pick up a good player here and a good player there and eventually you might get there. The two threads on Jimmy Rollins are both way off though. Matt Cain is too much and Henry Sosa is too little. And a fair package could probably be offered by a dozen other teams as well. The Giants are finally on the right track with their drafting and signing philosophy, and I’d like to see them stay the course.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Aug 24, 2008 7:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

Throwing in Aurilia would definitely do it. Especially since he’s a free agent and all.

by jcb9 on Aug 24, 2008 10:27 AM PDT 0 recs

Don’t you think Aurilia is a lot to give up for a guy who only has a .182 batting average in the post-season? That isn’t going to win us a pennant.

by rotorueter on Aug 24, 2008 11:26 AM PDT up 0 recs

roffle roffle

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 24, 2008 11:34 AM PDT up 0 recs

Talking about talent from Philly maybe Sabean makes a run at Pat Burrell this winter. His big bat in the middle of batting order could do some damage.

by wilriv21 on Aug 24, 2008 10:41 AM PDT 0 recs

Especially at 3rd base

by rotorueter on Aug 24, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up 0 recs

You’re right we are short on outfield help

I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Aug 25, 2008 10:19 AM PDT up 0 recs

Because no

That’s why.

by boonitez on Aug 24, 2008 11:56 AM PDT 0 recs

My alternate "because" joke:

Because we already have enough players with that nickname construction.

B-Mol
R-Win
T-Lince
A-Row
P-Sand
K-Corr
B-Suck

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 24, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

I’m glad we don’t have a lot of players with those types of nicknames—-only “Flew” comes close. They’re lazy and unoriginal.

by rotorueter on Aug 24, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

only if he takes the Phillies ballpark with him

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Aug 24, 2008 7:18 PM PDT up 0 recs

Is this satire?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Aug 24, 2008 12:14 PM PDT 0 recs

I cannot believe we are over 30 comments into this fanpost and there has not been a RickRoll reference.

Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: One of the few reasons to watch this year.

by sfgreg on Aug 24, 2008 12:32 PM PDT 0 recs

You just got J-Rolled!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 24, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

I can't believe this hasn't been hijacked yet.

…

Proud father of Eric Surcamp!

by The Thrill on Aug 24, 2008 10:26 PM PDT 0 recs

Forget Rollins

I watched the game last night and they booed him off the field. This third baseman of theirs, some guy named Pedro Feliz was amazing though. Tied it with a single off of fatso Broxton with two outs in the ninth, and then won it with a HR in the eleventh. Get on it, Sabean!!!

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Aug 25, 2008 7:01 AM PDT 0 recs

Giants and ex-Giants own big, fat Joanthan Broxton.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Aug 25, 2008 8:09 AM PDT up 0 recs

I’d trade Alderson for Rollins, sure. Sosa’s value is probably down pretty far.

by Evan on Aug 25, 2008 9:47 AM PDT 0 recs

Not a good decision

Furcal 1.045 OPS
Renteria .669 OPS
O. Cabrera .683 OPS

Rollins . 731

Of the free agents at shortstop, and the sure to be traded Rollins, I would take any of the above three over J-Roll. One thing to take into consideration with any Phillies player is ballpark. There is no way Rollins slugs near .500 in Mays Field, even taking into consideration the twenty triples he’d be sure to have. Furcal is good but expensive, and sort of Ray Ray fragile. O. Cabrera is the least attractive to me, older and mainly a slap hitter who has seven home runs in another hitters ballpark.

My case for Renteria…I think his price will come down significantly if the Tigers don’t pick up his 12.5M option. Renteria has also proven over his career that he is incredibly inconsistent year to year. He’s 33 and therefore would probably be forced to except a short term deal. He goes the other way and would rack up a shitload of triples. Good glove, no real speed. 2 yrs, year one 6.5M, year two 7.5M. Shortstop IS the position that is a GIANT glaring hole, maybe Renteria can be a stopgap til Noonan arrives.

I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Aug 25, 2008 10:18 AM PDT 0 recs

Renteria doesn’t have a good glove anymore

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 25, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up 0 recs

He really should just give in and buy a new one.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 25, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up 0 recs

but they’re like $200…

by tyrannoman on Aug 25, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up 0 recs

YOU

are a Cheaty McCheat from Cheatertown.

Furcals 1.045 OPS is in a whopping 153 PAs, and is currently injured. HIs career OPS is .764 (OPS+ 96 age 30). Rollins’ is .769 (OPS+ 97., age 29).

Renteria is 32, OPS+ 96 also, and Cabrera is by far the worst of the 4 (33 y.o, and OPS+ 85).

(This year’s ages, not 2009).

NOT COUNTING DEFENSE (and I am not going to bother to look these guys up) Rollilns is clearly the best bet going forward (youngest, best OPS+), but also the most expensive (not even counting salary, we have to trade for him).

FINALLY Rollins slugged .507 on the road in 2007. And OMG 20 triples.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Aug 25, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up 0 recs

There is no doubt I’d like to see Rollins in the city, I just think he would net a ridiculous $$ extension and I am not willing to mortgage the future on a guy who would hit ten homeruns in our booth. There is not doubt he is good and would have 30+ triples potentially, I just dont think he’s worth the $. Kind of Aaron Rowandesque to me.

I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Aug 27, 2008 1:00 PM PDT up 0 recs