The Man Who
Once upon a time, the Giants decided they needed a below-average corner outfielder. Like, really, really needed one. Everyone else totally had one. OMG, it would be so embarrassing if the Giants didn’t have one. But the team couldn’t afford one. The money they were printing was for rolling around in, not for personnel. So someone in the front office came up with a brilliant solution: Sign the below-average corner outfielder before his old team can decline to offer him arbitration. Just give the draft pick to the player’s old team, and that way the Giants wouldn’t be forced to waste $1M on a draft pick.
Those were the dark days – as far as player development went, the Giants were giddily practicing trepanation while the rest of the league had moved on to laser surgery. It didn’t begin with the Michael Tucker fiasco, though that was the most egregious example. The Giants weren’t spending a whole lot in international scouting, and they weren’t spending a whole bunch in the draft, making sure to pick players who weren’t expecting more than their slot commanded.
There was an oasis in this fog, though. In the 21st-round of the 2002 draft, the Giants picked Travis Ishikawa, who was a 2nd- to 3rd-round pick based on talent, but whose commitment to Oregon State caused him to plummet. The Giants bought out Ishikawa’s commitment for just under a million dollars. Every year, there are draftees who fall because of bonus demands or school commitments, but who eventually sign with the drafting club. It’s been a viable strategy for some teams. The Giants tried this once, nabbed themselves an Ishikawa, and then ditched the strategy. It’s a weird anomaly compared with the rest of the player development blueprints from Sabean’s Classical Era.
Ishikawa started out alright, holding his own as an 18-year-old in short-season A-ball. He moved through the system at a typical pace, and he reached high-A when he was 21. In San Jose, he started tearing it up, finishing with 22 home runs and a .282/.387/.532 line. He was the heir apparent to Will Clark, the anti-Benzinger, the first position player since Matt Williams to make the All-Star team, the…
And then: ka-thunk. The move to AA killed him. Dodd Stadium is an extreme pitcher’s park, but that couldn’t completely account for the decline. The next year in AA would be the charm, as Ishikawa would have an extra year under his belt, and…
And then: ka-boom. In AA last year, Ishikawa hit like a 64-year-old Omar Vizquel. The numbers improved when Ishikawa was moved to the Cal League, but he was way too old for that league. Plus, he wasn’t exhibiting great contact or strike-zone judgment, either. His average was .268, and his K/BB ratio was 78/19 in almost 200 at-bats.
And then: ka-surge? Ishikawa finally got the handle of AA in his third go-round, as he almost halved his strikeout rate from the previous season. Then he went to AAA and started hitting like a pre-vegan Prince Fielder.
I have no idea what to make of this guy. It’s been a couple of years since I wrote him off completely, so it’s hard to just accept him as a possible piece of the Giants’ rebuilding plan. Looking through his numbers at Minor League Splits, it isn’t as if there’s anything that screams "fluke!" His batting average on the balls he put in play wasn’t unusual. It isn’t as if his strikeout numbers stayed the same while his other numbers improved; it’s been a wholesale improvement.
So I’m looking forward to Travis Ishikawa being a part of the Giants’ plans next season, and that’s something I would never have dreamed of writing just 100 days ago. If there’s something that concerns me, it’s his platoon splits, as he doesn’t hit lefties all that well. The Giants have a ready-made solution, though, as they have a catching prospect, Pablo Sandoval, who can also play first base against lefties. Sandoval’s legs get some rest, Ishikawa is eased in against tough lefties…win/win.
I’m a liking the options that a rejuvenated Ishikawa brings. If he ends up as a good major leaguer, it will be the kind of player development break that the Giants haven’t had in decades. Open Ishikawa Thread.
0 recs |
97 comments
Comments
He found BLB's number and called for hitting tips?
That explains a lot.
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 19, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? Wow, you’d never have guessed it from his post-game interviews!
I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused!
by PLUChris on Aug 19, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
TI’s theme song
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Aug 19, 2008 11:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one who though Pablo Sandoval's promotion was premature/shortsighted/stupid?
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
by baetown415 on Aug 19, 2008 11:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's not a popular view here....
by bondslegend on Aug 19, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know. and i have a typo
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
by baetown415 on Aug 19, 2008 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, it should be “baytown”….but we can forgive you.
I've come to the conclusion that the two most important things in life are good friends and a good bullpen. - Bob Lemon, 1981
by Lyle on Aug 19, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Premature, maybe
Shortsighted, probably not; stupid, no.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Aug 19, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not based on performance. I can understand the argument that he and Bengie should not be on the Giants at the same time, though.
by rotorueter on Aug 19, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer the argument that he should play ahead of Bengie, myself.
by jcb9 on Aug 19, 2008 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Mostly because I don’t think that Sandoval is going to get enough ABs compared to what he would have gotten by staying in AA. But, I can understand the FO wanting to see what they have with Sandoval, especially if they think he is MLB ready.
by Squire_Boone on Aug 19, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh yeah, I like TI as a viable platoon guy
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
by baetown415 on Aug 19, 2008 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey whatev,
I don’t have any blind optimism spent on the niners this season, so I have plenty to throw at this dude. GO TI! I beLIEve!
by bondslegend on Aug 19, 2008 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
There should be a third option: “I want to believe, but I’ve been hurt so many times before.”
It really is an abusive relationship.
by jcb9 on Aug 19, 2008 11:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This
Ishi’s played a very nice first base in the last week, and OMG he can get hitz too! See also: Bowker, John. Let’s wait until he does a bit more than lay waste to Atlanta Braves relievers before we say he’s the Second Coming.
Nice title, Grant. Did you know the bassist for Travis is married to Kelly Macdonald aka The Most Adorable Scottish Lady on Earth?
No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.
by Kitspool on Aug 19, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wish that Radiohead had written one more album in the style of “The Bends.” So I’ll always be grateful for “The Man Who” for successfully ripping off one of the few albums that needed ripping off.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love me some early Radiohead
Downloading Travis now. Gracias.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Aug 19, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
UGH
I’ve been in love with Kelly Mac for like ever.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Aug 19, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ultimate Gamer!

No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.
by Kitspool on Aug 19, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FAP FAP FAP FAP FAP
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Aug 19, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
hi kelly
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Aug 19, 2008 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Between Ishikawa and Bowker, we now have two sorta-decent candidates for first base. Weird. I’d bring back Aurilia to platoon with whichever one wins out. An Ishikawa-Sandoval platoon doesn’t work because the right side is Pablo’s weak side. /Roger
by Evan on Aug 19, 2008 12:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
agree
and well, there’s no guarantee that Pablo will even make the big-league club next season. Though he’s still on his upswing and I have liked his past 400 PA’s, I’m not sure if he’s ready to contribute full time at this level. Then again, I think he would’ve been picked up in this winter’s Rule V draft if he didn’t get placed on the 40, so I guess it all kinda works out.
Adopted Giant: Aaron King
Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat
by baetown415 on Aug 19, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s kind of scary to think that, if Ishikawa ends up an above-average hitting first baseman with power, he could be our best first baseman since 1993.
by jcb9 on Aug 19, 2008 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
J.T. snow wasn’t too bad 1997-2000.
by Squire_Boone on Aug 19, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn’t bad, but aside from a flukish 135 OPS+ in 1997, he was pretty average for a first baseman (OPS+ of 102, 112, 113 – all good, but Clark was 117 in his WORST year as a Giant). Obviously his glove was ungodly.
by jcb9 on Aug 19, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean
aside from a flukish 1997, he was a BELOW AVERAGE 1B with the bat:
year sOPS+
1997 110
1998 81
1999 95
2000 88
He was awful (sOPS+) < 78 for 3 of the next 5 years, but did actually have his best (partial) year in 2004.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Aug 19, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet another reason...
why we should consider bringing back Aurilia for next year.
This season vs. LHP: 268/349/464
He can fill in at 3B, and if Sandoval flops he becomes 1B insurance.
I think I pulled my swagger muscle...
by BawLa on Aug 19, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I think another year of Richie filling a utility role would be a good thing.
by tyrannoman on Aug 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree
that Aurillia is useful in some capacity… but without some big bats acquired in the off season, we are in for another misery of no runs offense. I would keep Richie off the team just to prevent the Bochmiester from using him every day.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Aug 19, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since Bowker kept getting AB's at first..
I feel like Bochy wouldn’t start Aurillia @first over Ishi
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Aug 19, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
it really doesn’t seem like anyone is under the delusion that Aurilia is an everyday player.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Aug 19, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe...
Ishikawa has always been a guy that the scouts of have liked and he has always shown promise. I sincerely hope that his improvement this year can continue on into next year. The Giants (and Sabean) just may get lucky and end up filling the hole at 1B (at least against RHP) for 2009. Having 1B covered will make the offseason a little easier for the FO.
But, I do agree with others, that we need to see what he can do the rest of the season before handing him the 2009 1B job (although, nothing might stop Sabean from giving it to him anyway).
I am rooting for TI to have a strong rest of the season.
by Squire_Boone on Aug 19, 2008 12:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
late-rounder signed to real bonus?
See Wilson, Brian.
by wcw on Aug 19, 2008 12:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
(And I loved both picks at the time they were made, too! I am so smrt!)
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Therefore, Crawford will clearly be an all-star!
by jcb9 on Aug 19, 2008 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guaranteed
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Aug 19, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am so drinking this kool-aid.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Aug 19, 2008 12:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe in John Bowker Travis Ishikawa.
by Natto on Aug 19, 2008 12:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Between Bowker and Ishi is that Ishi really is a 1st baseman. (Have no idea how I posted that first one.)
by Shoeless on Aug 19, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so what … 5 games befroe Bochy has him starting at CF, 3rd or short?
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Aug 20, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Travis Ishikawa becomes way more of a badass once half of his face burns off.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 19, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That'll be awesome!
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Aug 19, 2008 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it’ll really slow down the game when he enters the batter’s box and flips a coin for every pitch to decide whether he’ll take it or swing.
by Natto on Aug 19, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever he can do to improve his plate discipline is fine by me.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Aug 19, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very hard guy to evaluate, but I think it’s slightly more likely that this is for real than that it’s a fluke. He’s been a genuine offensive powerhouse this season, in a way that context can not reduce, and he’s long been thought of as a guy with a high ceiling. I see no reason why he couldn’t be a real masher against righties… hitting lefties is the key variable, o’ course.
I’d be pretty happy to see him at 1B next year. If we were somehow able to sign Teixeira, blocking him in the process, I’d be okay with that too. More than anything, I want the organization to realize that Ishi should be a higher priority at the big-league level than Bowker in ‘09. Happily, it seems like they’re getting that message.
by onlxn on Aug 19, 2008 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
This.
I’ve been burned before. My optimism reserve is dangerously low. I’m almost all cynicism and crankiness.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Aug 19, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m willing to say that for the rest of the season, he’s the starting first baseman, though I’d give Sandoval some ab’s there as well.
If the decision is the platoon him, I’d hope that they gradually increase his number of ab’s against lefties to increase his confidence and exposure. You don’t spend all that time and money on a guy just to platoon him. In any event, I’d rather see TI against a LHP than Richie against anyone.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 19, 2008 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed ...
I’d like to follow the route
Cain is Able ...
by Norcalfan10 on Aug 19, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that Arizona tool with Conor Jackson. His first year+ he was a platoon hitter with Tony Clark. Then they eased him into the full time role, and he’s now pretty solid from both sides.
Best case scenario, TI and Pablo platoon the rest of this year, with Pable getting time behind the plate. Then you continue the trend next year until the trade deadline comes. You unload benji, giving Pablo the full time job, and allowing TI to take over full time at first.
Cain is Able ...
by Norcalfan10 on Aug 19, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a route that I agree with. Ishikawa needs to be eased slowly into facing LHPs at the major league level. Hopefully he can improve enough to start against them full time.
by Squire_Boone on Aug 19, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I bet Roberts starts today :(
4/4 lifetime against Nolasco.
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Aug 19, 2008 1:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Lewis was pretty hobbled yesterday
As much as I like Fred, he might need the time off.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Aug 19, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But his wives will be there tonight. :(
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 19, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's Mormon?
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Aug 19, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, I decided to share Fred with jponry.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 19, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Major kudos, Grant, for the title and reference
Clearly, you’re writing to reach us, with respect to why it always rains on us, something something driftwood.
I once punched a hole in a light fixture in celebration of a J.T. Snow home run. That is all.
by oneflapdown on Aug 19, 2008 1:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ishikawa deserves to finsih the year as a starter
no matter what he hits. If he does well, give him the job next year. If he doesn’t, back to AAA for one last shot
www.wazzel.com (prove your sports knowledge if you can)
by NeifiChicken on Aug 19, 2008 1:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
A little rain on the parade.
TI has had a total of 5 ML Games. His OPS line after 5 games is .353/.421/.647
There was another 1st baseman for the Giants this season that everyone got all excited about, and his line after 5 games was : .438/.474/.938 (Making what TI has done look like Omar)
Both had minor league careers with some questions as well as some good performance coupled with solid MiL performance prior to their coming to the ML.
Now, there are some reasons to think that TI may have more long-term success than John Bowker (who we shouldn’t give up on, btw) but I think that too much excitement about TI at this point is a little premature.
That being said, I really hope he turns out to be legit. I also hope Bowker figures things out at fresno.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Aug 19, 2008 2:01 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
edit
5 ML games this season.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Aug 19, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've always believed in Ishikawa
He impressed me in his very very short call-up back in 2006. 4 of his 7 hits went for extra bases. He’s a plus defender, he has above average speed for his position. He has shown the ability to drive the ball in the minors. I think he suffered a hit to his confidence after being sent back down, and then he had to contend with a knee injury.
Now this year he destroyed AA and AAA pitching, and is back in the majors with a renewed sense of confidence and maturity. I don’t think it’s a fluke. I think he can be a decent ML 1B. Not an All-Star or anything, but at least somebody we can actually be proud of that they came up through our farm system. That’s something we haven’t been able to say in quite some time really.
by Hobbes2d on Aug 19, 2008 2:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I've been saying this all along and for years now: The Dodd Dood It
Dodd Stadium did completely account for the decline: "The move to AA killed him. Dodd Stadium is an extreme pitcher’s park, but that couldn’t completely account for the decline. "
Ishikawa’s stats in 2005 and 2006 splits shows his batting line in 2005 is very similar to 2006-Away:
2005-total: .282/.387/.531/.918, .355 BABIP, 49% FB, 38% GB, 30% K, 0.54 BB/K, 249 ISO, 20 AB/HR
2006-Away: .244/.332/.470/.802, .324 BABIP, 46 FB, 39% GB, 34% K, 0.40 BB/K, 236 ISO, 23 AB/HR
2006-Home: .212/.289/.314/.603, .265 BABIP, 40 FB, 43% GB, 26% K%, 0.36 BB/K, 102 ISO, 46 AB/HR
The main difference between 2005 and 2006-Away is that his BABIP went down, accounting for the majority of the drop in OPS (drop in BB/K also contributed).
But 2006-home saw a huge drop in BABIP, FB%, ISO, resulting in the horrible batting line there, reduction in BA, OBP, SLG in particular, OPS. In addition, the HR ratio halved, resulting in a doubling of his AB/HR.
On top of that, Jonathan Mayo did some research and found that there is something at Municipal Park that screws up a hitter’s view, resulting in an inordinate amount of strikeouts there, one of the worse in all of the minors, let alone California League, making it a pitcher’s park in a hitter’s league. They even interviewed Bowker as a part of that series of articles on problem parks (Dodd also got mention as well) and he talked about the difficulties hitting there.
But I totally agree with FairweatherFan and would invoke the name of another slugging 1Bman, Lance Niekro, who had initial success and ultimately failed.
Though I will note that Ishikawa has actually been in 17 games, 41 AB thus far in his MLB career, as he played a little and nicely in 2006. His overall BABIP is .414 because he strikes out so many times (27% K%), contributing to his very nice batting line of .317/.364/.561/.925, 136 OPS+. His BABIP should drop by a lot which will kill his batting average, OBP, and SLG; the question is what is his true level of BABIP, it could be high, it could be low, but nobody knows. He’s actually hit well in his limited exposure to LHP in 2006 but totally small samples; he has been horrible against LHP in the minors. (Hence the platoon talks)
Just let him platoon with Sandoval next season (assuming they win that and not just handed it) with Sandoval also backing up C and getting at least one start per week there. That would be about 3 starts per week, about 300-350 AB in a season, more if Molina is traded mid-season. Heck, if they made it two starts per week catching, that would push it to 400-500, which is pretty much a full season, close enough that he has a chance to show what he can do.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 19, 2008 2:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why does it always rain on me?

Grant has good taste.
Once I adopted Tim Flannery. I've since left him outside a fire station.
by pme on Aug 19, 2008 2:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, I wouldn’t say I love Travis. I enjoyed “The Bends II (Now with 200% more gloss!)” to an extent.
Of course, they also opened the door for Coldplay.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go Travis!
I’ve been rooting for the Giants to get an impact Asian player for so long, I was posting under “Travis Ishikawa” a few years ago. Since then I’ve been forced to go “Kurt Suzuki” but I would love it if TI were to stick.
Does anyone have the comprehensive list of guys Sabean intentionally lost first round picks for? Tucker I remember, but I forget who else.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Aug 19, 2008 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’d also be fun/painful to see which players were drafted with those pics.
by rotorueter on Aug 19, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Royals picked Matthew Campbell, who never made it out of A-ball. That doesn’t mean that the Giants weren’t going to pick Gio Gonzalez, Huston Street, Reid Brignac, Yovani Gallardo, Hunter Pence, Dustin Pedroia, or Kurt Suzuki. All went within the next 30 picks.
With the Benitez pick, the Marlins drafted Aaron Thompson, who was a pretty good prospect until he stalled in AA this year. That doesn’t mean that the Giants weren’t going to pick Jacoby Ellsbury, Matt Garza, Colby Rasmus, or Clay Bucholz. I was in favor of that signing, though, so I don’t get to retroactively bitch about the picks.
The Matheny signing, though, was useless, so I can bitch about that one. But the Cards used the picks on Tyler Herron, who also stalled in AA this year, and a middling-to-okay prospect in Josh (Pitcher) Wilson.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that I think about it, I wouldn’t trade any of them for Kelvim Pichardo, who was the player we got from the Phillies for Michael Tucker.
THAT DOESN’T VINDICATE SABEAN, dammit. It just makes an irony clown come out and squirt us with some seltzer.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would trade all those guys
for Pichardo..
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Aug 19, 2008 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that’s the only intentional loss. As in, if Sabean waited a day to sign Tucker, it was very likely that the Royals weren’t going to offer him arbitration, but the organization made a conscious choice to punt the pick.
Other free agents (Matheny/Benitez/Vizquel) cost the Giants picks, but that was more a price of playing the FA market.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also Durham was another one that I have read where the Giants signed him when a day or later would have not costed them a draft pick.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oakland got Brian Snyder, who stalled out in AA, and Omar Quintanilla, now utility infielder for the Rockies, with the Durham compensation picks. The A’s traded Quintanilla along with Eric Byrnes for Joe Kennedy and Jay Witasick, both of whom they released within two years. I’m never sure how to evaluate the A’s maneuvers, it’s like trying to figure out who’s in front in a revolving door.
The All-Father is now...umm...a Grizzly. But he was a Giant for a while.
by EliminateMe on Aug 19, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The A’s were/are obsessive with their comp picks, so I don’t think that Durham would have escaped an arbitration offer.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Especially considering there’s specific mention in Moneyball about Beane acquiring Durham with draft picks in mind in the first place.
by rotorueter on Aug 19, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, Ishikawa was just the highest bonus, the Giants signed others to higher bonuses later
The Giants did a lot of draft and follows, picking up Marcus Sanders, among others who got large bonuses in later rounds, and they did pick up some signability players, like Jeremiah Luster, the only thing was Travis was the only one with any real long-term success.
And it was not like the Giants selected players over the years who agreed to lower bonuses for that pick, a study I did of draft bonuses paid by the Giants showed that 2003 was the only year that a number of picks ended up below the prevailing bonus for that round and region of overall draft pick order, and there was Linden but he ended up with a low bonus because his agent stupidly held out for a long time before Linden fired him and accepted a lower bonus just to get his pro career started, since he had already lost most of that season already due to holding out.
The Giants have been known to pick players like Nate Schierholtz who nobody rated that highly (my study of that showed that to be true, most picks during the 2000’s were ranked by Baseball America to be at least a full round (30 picks) after where they selected the player; thus if they selected him 27th, he was ranked the 57th best draft prospect or worse). But that is not the same as drafting for signability because their bonuses were all in range of what other teams were paying for that overall draft pick range (+/- 5 picks). In other words, if they selected players just to sign them to a lower bonus, they failed miserably at it except for in 2003.
The Giants have not been cheap with their draft picks except when they purposefully avoided a draft pick by signing a player before the deadline. And those were a calculated business risk that can be done on occasion without severely hurting your development plans or your future. It was basically the same as throwing away an expensive lottery ticket that paid off about 10% of the time.
In one case, it got us Ray Durham, in the other case, it got us one year’s worth of Michael Tucker, who delivered a 97 OPS+ season for $1.5M. How much have we gotten out of David Aardsma, Roger/Craig Whitaker, EME, Todd Linden, Kurt Ainsworth, Jerome Williams, Tony Torcato, Nate Bump, Arturo McDowell, all getting a significant chunk of change in bonuses from the Giants. I would guess that the third one was from 2005, which was for Benitez, which obviously didn’t work.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 19, 2008 3:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Giants were picking late in the draft, as they used to actually win games. If 10% of their late first-round picks became an average major leaguer, the club would have spent, on average, about $13M in bonuses over ten years to find one average player. That doesn’t sound good.
But that single average player would have been under club control for six years before free agency. So if you lumped together the bonuses of the nine failed late first-rounders as part of the cost for the one average player, you’d get an average cost of about $2M+ per year on top of the successful pick’s salary (close to the ML minimum, and then about $8M in arbitration.) If you want an average player through free agency, you’ll probably have to pay around $2M – $3M per year on the open market for position players, and a lot more than that for starting pitchers. The first scenario shows about $20M in expenditures; the second is close to that. And, again, this is if only 10% of your late first-round picks become even average.
And if 3% of late first-round picks become stars, those picks could save the team about $60M to $80M compared to buying a star on the open market. If the draftee-turned-average-player pays for himself and his nine busted friends, then the organization is trying for a late-round star with house money that the Giants are playing with. Your lottery ticket analogy doesn’t really work. It’d be more like a free entry with 29 co-workers into a yearly office NCAA pool that features a new car as the grand prize.
How much have we gotten out of David Aardsma, Roger/Craig Whitaker, EME, Todd Linden, Kurt Ainsworth, Jerome Williams, Tony Torcato, Nate Bump, Arturo McDowell, all getting a significant chunk of change in bonuses from the Giants.
This doesn’t take into account the idea that even busted prospects have trade value. David Aardsma, Jason Grilli, Joe Fontenot, and Kurt Ainsworth didn’t do much for the Giants as first-round picks, but all of them were able to bring a major leaguer back in trade.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I think OGC has a valid point
In that the draft isn’t quite as great of a deal as it first appears. You do spend quite a bit to find the players that can actually help you. A lot of what is the “right” choice depends on need, and time lines.
Going FA gives you that player now vs sometime in the next 10 years, and that is pretty significant when you are trying to build around a player to win now (Bonds).
I think it is a pretty complicated situation to try to evaluate entirely analytically – but I do think the underlying point is valid that giving up draft picks late in the first round isn’t a completely asinine idea, and in the right circumstance makes a lot of sense.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Aug 19, 2008 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
giving up draft picks late in the first round isn’t a completely asinine idea
If you need to sign a free agent, you need to sign a free agent. I don’t begrudge a team giving up a low-round pick to sign a good player, or a second-rounder for Aaron Rowand.
But if the logic is the Michael Tucker logic — we’ll just save $1.5M by shifting the funds from player development to payroll, because our payroll budget is set in stone — I don’t think it saves money in the long term. Considering how far below the market rate draftees are for their first six years, I think the money is a wash. And that’s even when you take the low success rate of picks into account. On top of all that, there’s still a 3% (or so) chance that the organization is throwing away a chance at $60M+ in below-market salary savings. If the Giants wanted to replace Matt Cain’s production with a free agent, it would cost them close to $80M. Maybe even $126M.
by Grant on Aug 20, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've totally come back around on Ish
When I saw Ishikawa two years ago he looked like some skinny little kid. Now he looks like a man. He looks like a masher. Obviously it took a lot of hard work and determination to get back to this position and I think that should be rewarded. I don’t care about his age. Considering our situation at 1B he deserves 100% attention right now and in the near future.
As for Bowker, I think the rest of the year at AAA would be good, but he’ll likely get called up in September. For next year, I think Bowker should compete with Shierholtz for the outfield spot in the preseason. Even if we don’t trade Winn in the offseason, Freddie might be out which should open up some at-bats for the winner of this battle. When Fred comes back we can move Winn and callup the loser of the battle.
I think I pulled my swagger muscle...
by BawLa on Aug 19, 2008 3:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pattern
Giant minor league hitter comes up to the show. Nobody in the prospect maven punditry is too high on said player – minor league numbers are promising but nowhere near dominant. Player tears it up big time for a while. Giants fans get excited. Player gets more at bats. League adjusts to prospect. Player starts to struggle – ugly overmatched strikeouts that are painful to watch become regular. Giants coaches unable to Player loses playing time, gradually disappears.
Calvin Murray, Damon Minor, Niekro Please, Dan Ortimer, and John Bowker.
This is why Freddie’s .922 OPS this August is so exciting to me – he’s gotten past the “league adjustment” phase.
And, so, I’ll be excited if Travis is still OPSing over .800 when he’s gotten past 400 MLB PAs, and past the point where the other teams have scouting briefings on him available before the games …
by SnowLeopard on Aug 19, 2008 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That should be
“Giants coaches unable to talk player out of slump”
by SnowLeopard on Aug 19, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IAWTC
We shall see.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Aug 19, 2008 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Niekro, Please
I would bring this guy back in ST if we could saddle him with this moniker.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Aug 19, 2008 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a Dugout creation, circa 2005.
Like Barry Zito, I'm mildly half-OK.
by EliminateMe on Aug 19, 2008 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point, but Ortmeier never really had good minor league numbers.
by Grant on Aug 19, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ort
Had a good year at age 22 in San Jose and was adequate in AA in the following years, but yes, Ort has never had any years like Ishi had
www.wazzel.com (prove your sports knowledge if you can)
by NeifiChicken on Aug 19, 2008 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Harder to tell with Ort
He actually had good numbers in-season his AA years, when you account for the fact that he injured himself frequently and a lot of the poor numbers there happened when he came back sooner than he should have, reinjured again and played anyhow, and “gamer” stuff like that.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 20, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Give Ishikawa an opportunity
Ishikawa has earned his promotion with a fine AA and AAA season. Ishikawa has been presented this opportunity and lets sit back and watch him. It sure would be nice if the Giants could produce an inhouse 1b with the power and glove of Ishikawa.
by wilriv21 on Aug 19, 2008 5:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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