Defensive Perception

by zenbitz on Aug 14, 2008 10:09 AM PDT Comment 18 comments

Have you ever noticed how the worse a teams' offense, the better perceived it's defense (including pitching)? I have noticed this for the last couple years with the Giants and 49ers. In the 49ers case, the defense hasn't even been average, merely not "historically awful". I have heard excuses (which don't apply to baseball) that "it's because the defense is on the field so much" - but that doesn't stop many teams from having good defenses and terrible offenses.

Some numbers: by Football Outsiders DVOA, the niners ranked 32nd in offense, and 28th in defense. That's bad. By comparison, the number 1 ranked defense (Tennessee) had the 21st ranked offense, and the Ravens coupled the 9th best defense with the 26th best offense.

I see a similar thing going on with the Giants in the view of their pitching. The Giants pitching/defense is not good. It's merely average. Now compared to their utter ineptitude on offense, it seems like a bright spot - but getting past Lincecum and Cain there is some talent but not much in the way of results (although Brian Wilson has been quite good in high leverage situations).

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Johnathon Sanchez sez hi

Great? No. Excellent if he’s your 3rd starter? Yes.

Oh, and you’re forgetting Zito

by bondslegend on Aug 14, 2008 10:21 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

sanchez

yeah, I rechecked him and was overweighting his ERA (which is merely OK). I do think he will be fine going forward, assuming his arm doesn’t blow out. I would consider shutting him down pretty soon.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Aug 14, 2008 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is a great point. It’s phenomenon that also occurs with catchers: often, “defensive specialist” simply means that they can’t hit.

by rotorueter on Aug 14, 2008 10:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

See: Matheny, Mike.

HE SAVES RUNS

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 14, 2008 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mahteny was incredible behind the plate, though. Ausmas has been as well. Most of the “defensive specialist’ (a.k.a. "catch and throw guys”) end up as backups. Matheny was one of the few whose incredible defense overshadowed his poor offensive output.

by tyrannoman on Aug 14, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't terrible impressed with Matheny's defense

Specifically, his pitch calling. He was good at most of the other stuff, but hardly enough to justify his PT with that bat.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 14, 2008 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I really was. It’s really hard for me to critize or praise a catcher for his pitch calling, because I"m not there. I don’t know what the scouting report for each hitter is, I don’t know what the pitcher has working that day, and I don’t know if the catcher called for a perfect pitch and the pitcher threw a stinker.

As for Matheny’s D, I felt he was the best defensive catcher in baseball as far back as his days with the Royals. His lateral movement and ability to block balls in the dirt were fantastic. His arm wasn’t the greatest, in spite of his good footwork. If he had a flaw behind the plate I think that was it.

by tyrannoman on Aug 14, 2008 9:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Royals

Brewers? Blue Jays?

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 14, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I blame Bowker.

by Evan on Aug 14, 2008 10:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

LEAVE JOHN ALONE

You guys are mean!

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 14, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's a preception that the Giants have a good defense?

Really? I mean, really?

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 14, 2008 12:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

where defense = pitching + defense, yes.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Aug 14, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

I think that pretty much everyone knows that the Giants have a good #1 and #2 starter, a decent closer, and nothing else.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 14, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think there’s a grand total of two positions on the field that people said the Giants were above average defensively: Shortstop and centerfield. Maybe right field, but everyone also knows that Winn has a weenie arm. You’re right that people were talking pitching and defense, but the Giants didn’t even do a good job of putting together a satisfactory defense! I mean, when the right side of your infield, at the start of the season, is manned by Ortmeier/Aurilia/Bowker and Durham, plus your left fielder is the talented Fred Lewis, and your catcher has a bad reputation for not being able to block balls in the dirt… Yeah, there’s not a lot of defensive amazement going on out there.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Aug 14, 2008 1:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I will have to stand up for Richie, and say he’s played a very good 1B this year.

by tyrannoman on Aug 14, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Our OF defense has been outstanding. Winn is rated as the best RF in the game right now by Dewan’s +/- and Lewis has been a top 3 defender all year in LF. Rowand varies by metric, some love him (RZR) others think he’s purely average (Dewan and Dial’s new numbers).

The infield has been the source of problems. Castillo, Durham, Bowker, and Aurilia have all gotten significant playing time this year. All are poor defenders. Molina isn’t a strong defensive catcher either.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Aug 14, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have some real issues with DVOA and Football Outsiders’ popular advanced American footballing stats as metrics, but they are far better than simply using total yards.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 14, 2008 1:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

only giving 1/3 of a rat’s ass about football, I can’t offer an opinion on DVOA, or any other football metric. I just know the 9ers have a lot of talent of defense, and this is probably why they are percieved to have a good D. If that’s true or not, I have no clue.

by tyrannoman on Aug 14, 2008 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs