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Great BP Piece

http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7937

A couple of excerpts (keeping it short with copyright)

Look, I’m no radical, but I’ve never understood why we allow in sports what we would never allow in other professions. Engineering firms don’t draft the top engineers and pay them below-market rates, and while the early careers of attorneys can be daunting, they get to choose a firm to give 100 hours a week to for a few years. ...

We also wouldn’t tell them they had to work for a lousy firm, or in a city they might hate, far from their families. As a nation, we wouldn’t stand for that kind of thing, but we do in sports. In sports, we’re handing over the prime of players’ careers without ever giving them a chance to find out what they were worth. For many players, the step from amateur to professional is, in fact, the only time in their lives that they will have any leverage at all in their salary, if not their employer or place of work or management team. It is embarrassing to take so much away from them, then complain that they’re not being reasonable when it comes to the one thing that they can negotiate. If coming out of college I’d been told that I had no choice but to go copyedit for the Des Moines Register, you can be damn sure that I would have been a jerk about salary.

 

Seriously, this is the point that way too many people ignore - the idea that the players have some sort of duty to sacrifice "For the good of the game", or whatever bogeyman we owe today.  I'd like Buster Posey to be a Giant, but damn if I think he's wrong to maximize every penny he can get at this point.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Not many lawyers or Engineers make baseball money

Without some some semblance of competitive balance, major sports leagues would be significantly less lucrative, if not completely untenable. It’s not a “sacrifice for the good of the game,” it’s an economic trade-off: forgo some rights now for a huge payday down the road. If they don’t like it, they can join an indy league, go to Japan/Taiwan/Korea/etc, or choose another profession.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2008 6:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

And the early careers of lawyers are non-existent if they don’t go to a good school and perform well. They’re 50th round picks or non-drafted free agents and they get offered jobs at the Des Moines Register.

Maybe next he should write an article about how he should have been able to pick his parents.

Does he propose an alternative? My guess would be no.

"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean

by Smotheredinhugs on Aug 12, 2008 7:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't realize

that Scott Boras writes for Baseball Prospectus.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 13, 2008 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually many engineers do work and live where they are told

I have worked with many a young engineer that works 100 hours/week. Get moved to another office for a few years to handle projects. The end payoff is a partnership. And they don’t make baseball money, most don’t even make 100k. It’s the payoff down the road.

by timmeh on Aug 13, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

uhhh

pretty sure that everyone would rather have 10-12 million rather than 1, you just got to put yourself in their position

"But if he's swinging at real flies, well, in that case there are two definite solutions: 1) Fresno 2) Ritalin." - howtheyscored

by CPGiant756 on Aug 12, 2008 6:57 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

it is a market

they don’t have to play pro baseball.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 12, 2008 7:14 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

But it’s so ludicrously far from a free market. Are there any other markets that work this way, where you can only sell your services to one bidder even thought there are dozens of others that would love to have you?

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 7:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well of course it’s not a free market. Read Bhaakon’s post again. A really free market would collapse baseball as a recognizable institution, and eventually do away with the very revenue stream that permits these huge salaries that all these amateur free agents aspire to.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 13, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There Is A Rather Large Point The BP Author Is Missing

The odds are half these guys will not actually turn out to be the outstanding major league players they are projected to be. This article completely ignores the risk side of the equation.

by giantsrainman on Aug 12, 2008 8:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Completely irrelevant to the question of to whom and for how much a young athlete should be able to sell his services.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who says players shouldn’t be able to negotiate a agreeable contract for themselves? We the fans say too often they should take less, because we assume they’ll have another chance to make up for it later if they are any good. But we ignore that some of these players…whether they’re first, ninth, 22nd, 44rd round picks are not going to make it that far. So it is in their best interests to take what they can get, put in some extra parameters to cover future needs like college expenses if they are coming out of high school and let it all play out.

We do ignore the fact that these players do have the right to negotiate and do as they please because they are not yet under contract to the team. We just assume because that they are drafted by our team, that they become team players immediately to save us the “undo angst” of the negotiations that can shape their futures, all for our own collective sake of mind. I think when you take ego out of it, the greed of the fans is on par with that of any player/organization because we think we are all knowing, all powerful and sometimes omnipotent to the nth degree.

it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Aug 12, 2008 9:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

undo angst = not being able to take back my stupid move in computer solitaire.

undue angst = our top draft choice not yet signed.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 13, 2008 9:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Damn....

Caught by the grammar police.

Posey will sign and some of you will finally be able to sleep this week. Honest!

it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Aug 13, 2008 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can’t think of many ways to worsen baseball than to take away the draft and replace it with an amateur version of free-agency.

Joe Sheehan is funny, in a way. His pieces about Barry Bonds are always just about spot on. But I don’t think I’ve read much else by him that I’ve agreed with. This piece is no exception.

Of course, I don’t begrudge these players from trying to get as much as they can; just like I don’t begrudge free agents from getting as much as they can. I don’t get mad at Zito for his contract, I get mad at the Giants management for his contract. That and the free agent system.

Only 856 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 12, 2008 10:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I can’t think of many ways to worsen baseball than to take away the draft and replace it with an amateur version of free-agency.

How do you know it would worsen it? It would such be a huge change that the consequences are largely unforeseeable. I’m not convinced that they would be destructive, in sum.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There’s no draft for the Latin American market. It’s a vast, speculative free-agent pool. Are the best players going to the wealthiest teams? Are the Yankees and Mets and Red Sox and Dodgers outbidding everyone else for the likes of Miguel Cabrera and Felix Hernandez and Angel Villalona and Michael Inoa?

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And yes

The Dodgers and Redsox and Yankees are outbidding everyone else for Dice-K, Fukudome, Etc.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 13, 2008 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But those guys are basically major-league-ready free agents. Teams don’t choose between Fukudome and Buster Posey; they choose between Fukudome and Aaron Rowand and Andruw Jones and such. Doesn’t really have anything to do with the draft.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 7:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Evan, I'd be interested

...to read how you think that idea could possibly work. I can’t imagine a scenario in which non-idealistic owners, players, and agents could work together to produce a balanced competitive environment. Perhaps my imagination is too limited.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 13, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's very simple

The teams with the most money would be able to sign all of the talented young “FA’s” and as a result the talent pool in baseball would be even less evenly distributed than it is now.

The only way this could work is in conjunction with a MiL salary cap and revenue sharing, controlling how much each team could spend on prospects.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 13, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who knows? It would be a competely different arrangement, but I’m not so attached to the current system that I think it must be preserved at all costs.

You could institute some rules and regs if you wanted to keep a lid on big-money teams throwing their weight around—for instance, a signing salary cap, whereby each franchise could only spend a certain amount on young players. Or make every non-40-man roster player in every organization subject to something like a Rule 5 draft, so the understocked teams could pluck talent from the overstocked ones. These are just off the top of my head.

Or, to take a more extreme approach, I’d be okay with giving up the “balanced competitive environment” we currently have and letting big money have its way—if doing so were part of a system like that of European soccer leagues, where you have different strata of leagues and teams can rise or fall depending on performance.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually, there was a small taste of what would happen in 1996

Through a loophole (and massive stupidity on the part of the drafting teams), four first-rounders managed to void their teams’ draft rights and become amateur free agents. All signed enormous bonuses: Matt White (10.2M) Travis Lee (10M) John Patterson (6.075M), and Bobby Seay (3M). For comparison, the 1996 #1 pick, Kris Benson, got a $2M bonus. I’m sure that the disparity would shrink if more FA players were available, but I think that the very best prospects would get several times what they’re currently paid. I also think that you’d see a proclivity to sign with better teams, essentially having the opposite of the drafts moderating effect: making sure that rich and good teams stay good.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 13, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

All four of those signed with the two small-market expansion teams. That’s a spectacular example of the rich NOT getting richer.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Expansion teams are unique occurances

and it was a singular event. I doubt the D-Rays could afford to (or, more likely, would agree to) drop 10M on a prospect every season.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 13, 2008 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose this is subjective

I still remember some numbskull on some stupid baseball show talking about the point of sports is to watch one team dominate another; that is why we watch sports.

That is the complete opposite of why I watch sports. I watch sports because I like competition. Domination is not much of a competition.

For various reasons, there is a competitive imbalance in baseball. Some teams have more resources (and spend more resources) to get more of the better players. This is not good for the game, in my opinion. Having amateur free agency instead of a draft would just exacerbate this problem and, indeed, remove the one area where bad teams have an advantage on good teams.

Only 855 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 13, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hypothetically speaking, it could be good if teams like the Red Sox, Yankees, Mets, and Cubs went ahead and ponied up for the best players, causing other teams like the Giants, Dodgers, Angels, Mariners, etc to pony up more cash too and get better players. Then teams like the Royals, Rays, A’s, etc. would probably be more willing to not cry poor, but instead up their payroll too, in order to stay competitive.

However, the reality of it is, it’s easier to cry poor, or say woe is me, than it is to part with more of your own money. I doubt that teams like the Royals, Marlins, Rays, or Twins would actually increase their payroll. Instead, they’d whine about needing a new stadium in order to better support the team, and probably never increase their payroll to remain competitive.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Aug 13, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is

Small market teams don’t generate as much revenue as the large market teams, and as such can’t carry as high a payroll.

unrestricted free agency would essentially guarantee that the best players would be on the wealthiest teams, and totally fuck the rest of baseball.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 13, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No matter how you look at it, it will remain unbalanced

There’s no getting around it. Free agency instead of the draft would absolutely destroy any semblance of balance in pro baseball. Basically, teams would either whine about being poor, or they’d actually BE poor (comparatively speaking). And nobody wins, except the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe the Mets.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Aug 13, 2008 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, again, this seems intuitvely the case, but in fact all the evidence suggests that it’s not what would happen.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

huh?

What evidence?

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 13, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, Im sorry, but you haven't been supplying much evidence

A few anecdotes does not build a strong case. And yes, I realize that the other side has not built a strong case either.

Only 855 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 13, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I know. As I said, the shape of baseball after the draft is basically unforeseeable at this point. But the two most comparable structures I can think of are (a) baseball before the draft, and (b) the Latin American amateur market today. And neither of those support at all the idea that the rich teams would inevitably run roughshod over the rest of the league.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know about baseball before the draft because, as has been mentioned, it’s very difficult to compare that era of baseball to this one; especially financially.

I do think that the Latin American amateur market is a good comp. Those are amateur players, just like those who go into the draft. They are young, as well: often younger than those who are drafted.

And I don’t like the way it is handled now. I would prefer that those players go into the draft, personally. Even if it is as a sixteen year old.

How many Latin American high profile prospects have signed with the Twins, Royals, Tigers (a decent sized market team), etc. signed? I know that the A’s just signed Inoa. But before that the only one was that crappy Cuban pitcher…I forget his name. The system does not spread the talent out evenly from that market.

Mostly, I’d prefer baseball to be as little like a business as possible and as much like the beautiful game that it is.

Only 855 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 13, 2008 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I doubt that teams like the Royals, Marlins, Rays, or Twins would actually increase their payroll. Instead, they’d whine about needing a new stadium in order to better support the team, and probably never increase their payroll to remain competitive.

That’s exactly what they do now. So what will we have lost?

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Teams like the A’s, Twins, and Marlins are still able to field competitive, playoff teams despite ownership’s best efforts, in large part due to good drafts and player development. If you make ownerships of these clubs bid against the Yankees, Sox, et al for guys that used to be draft picks, you’re telling these GMs to get into the ring with Apollo Creed and fight him with both hands tied behind their back.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Aug 13, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

But is the draft the sole support underpinning the system of competitive balance? The draft didn’t even exist before 1965, remember. In the years before, yes, the Yankees won every year, but in general competitive balance was similar to how it is now. Some big-market teams, like the Chicago and Philly teams, were consistently terrible, while some small-market teams, like Milwaukee and St. Louis, were consistently competitive.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think comparing the financial strategies

Of baseball pre 1965 and baseball today is a fairly worthless exercise.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Aug 13, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The draft as competitive balance

I don’t know if the draft is the sole support of competitive balance or not. I can’t think of anything, really. But allowing the worst teams access to the best talent is sufficiently fair, I’d say.

Free agency is the area where large market teams have the most advantage. If we expand free agency to include amateurs, we would also expand that advantage. Yes, there would be signings such as we see in the international market: Inoa, Villalona, etc. But if you examine that market, I’m pretty sure we would see most of those guys going to larger market teams. If we isolate the Japanese market we see the biggest names going to the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers and Mariners, primarily. The Latin American market is a little more spread out but we still see the Yankees and other large market teams getting a lot of the talent.

Is there any information compiled about who the highest paid international free agents sign with? That would be fairly relevant to this discussion, I would say.

Of course, regardless of what the outcome of such a study would be, the draft isn’t broken. So why should we fix it?

Only 855 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 13, 2008 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The draft is broken from the perspective of a young player trying to find the right employer and the best salary. Which isn’t the biggest deal in the world, of course. I’m not trying to get anyone to storm any barricades. This is basically a thought experiment inspired by the carping of those who insist that Buster Posey and his cohort are somehow insufficiently dedicated to the game because they hold out for as much money as they can get.

I do think the draft system will eventually collapse, and personally I won’t mourn it. A full free-agent system will be better for young athletes and better for smart teams.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 8:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The percentage of new recruits into the field who actually become competent at their field is much smaller in baseball than it is in just about every other field out there. These are people who we are not even sure if they are competent, yet they are getting more money, right away, than many people will see in several years to a lifetime (depending on the prospect). I don’t feel sorry for them.

Really, you can’t compare baseball with becoming a lawyer or doctor or engineer or some other professional career. What you should be comparing it to is other high glamor/high fame/high pay fields out there, such as writing or acting or music. In those fields, the first pay one will see is quite small usually. Especially compared to what baseball prospects get.

If a publisher purchases a story (which is a lesser chance than getting drafted, I believe) then it would be quite a hit to receive a 50,000 dollar advanced check. Most get less than that.

In acting, usually one must get bit parts that do not pay very well to start out with.

In music, the first contract one gets is usually quite small. The majority of bands that make a career out of their music don’t make anywhere near the bonuses of high draft picks. In fact, I would say that music is a fairly good comp. We can compare the career minor leaguer to most bands that make a living with their music; perpetually on the road, making okay money doing what they love.

So what about choosing where they want to work? Well, again, it’s very similar. An author is wise to send his/her submissions to many publishing company, hoping to be picked up. That author does not get to choose who to work for, at first. Ditto musical acts and actors.

I don’t see why you think the draft system will collapse. And I don’t agree that a free-agent system is better. In my mind, unless you have compelling reasons to change it, don’t.

Only 855 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 13, 2008 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Evan

The draft may well collapse; and your thought experiment has been interesting. But I would disagree with your last statement in this way: a full free-agent system will be better for young athletes and better for WEALTHY teams. As cited above, there are small-market teams that don’t seem to care about developing a winning team (KC & Oakland), and small-market teams that do (Minnesota & Florida, although the Marlins are a rather unique case). Full free agency wouldn’t affect KC much, but would really screw the chances of teams like the Twins, who are doing all they can (making wise baseball decisions) under limited circumstances. Perhaps a better question is: how do we get the Kansas Citys of the major leagues to really care about winning? Maybe their recent drafts are an indication that management’s focus is coming around. We can only hope so.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 14, 2008 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would switch Oakland and Florida in your example.

Only 852 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 15, 2008 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In 1965

The highest payed players were making a little over 100K, much less than modern players even with inflation. The reserve clause was still in effect. There were fewer teams, and much less competition for the fans’ entertainment dollar. Today, we have the NFL, NBA, 1000+ television channels, the internet, etc.

As fairweatherfan said, the conditions of 1965 are incomparable to those of today.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 13, 2008 6:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, things were different in the old days. But what else have you got? You have to use the best models you can. It’s not clear to me how any of the factors you list change the basic relation of rich and poor teams, or of teams and amateur players. The demise of the reserve clause, in fact, suggests that a draftless MLB would be considerably more competitive now than it was in the 1940s and 1950s.

by Evan on Aug 13, 2008 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, since the 40’s and 50’s were possibly the least competitive era’s in major league history, that’s not hard to do.

Only 855 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 13, 2008 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Buster Posey is not one of baseball's best players

He’s a prospect, and significant risk goes with signing him. He may never pan out, like

1994 – Dante Powell
1995 – Joe Fontenot
1996 – Matt White
1997 – Jason Grilli (4th overall)
1998 – Tony Torcato
1999 – Kurt Ainsworth
2000 – Boof Bonser

You get the point.

Flaxseed oil dependent

by 3Com Park on Aug 13, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

That's quite a FAIL list

It’s like looking at the draft history of the Pirates, or the…… oh.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 14, 2008 8:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This article misses so many points. MLB is essentially a large company with compensation rules. You can choose to work for that company or go work for a different company (Indy leagues, Japan leagues, etc).

by mxmob33 on Aug 13, 2008 10:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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