McCovey Chronicles: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: MLB postseason scores, schedules and blog coverage Bar-right-arrows



Villalona and 3B

This topic may have been discussed here before, but not recently, I believe.

I am wondering why the Giants, via Augusta, aren't playing Villalona at Third, instead of First.

Though he is certainly big, he seems to move very well (in terms of quickness) around First. He also seems to have a strong arm, though I don't know about accuracy. He made 18 errors at third in rookie ball last year, which is a high amount, but not necessarily indicative of an inability to play third, given his age.

Did any of you happen to watch him play third last year (or encounter credible reports from those who did)?

As we all know, the Giants have an organizational black hole at 3B. We at least have something at 1B, and could always convert Villalona later if needed.

The reports I've read on his play at 3B is that he is raw, but didn't address whether it is 'raw: forget about it' or 'raw: give it time'. Any thoughts?

Caveats + secondary thoughts:

The giants sort of have Gillaspie at 3b, but he hasn't signed yet (though likely will), and he seems a safe bet to be a Mueller type, there is no guarantee he will pan out as such. Plus, the move to 1B for Villalona occurred before the draft, so Gillaspie certainly wasn't a consideration.

I presume the Giants have given this some thought and decided against it, so perhaps he played poorly, but it just isn't clear that is so. I have also heard that they are open to playing him at 3B, and are not thinking he is set at 1B. Yet, if this is so,  why not play him at 3B, as it is an organizational need and premium position. It might be because they want him to have experience at both, (moving him back to 3B after this year), so there is flexibility depending on how the next few drafts play out.

 

On another note:

He's had a nice July. I recently saw monthly splits, but can't seem to locate the information again. I believe he's .270 something for the month, and I suspect his SO have decreased, though they are still high.

 

 

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

0 recs | Comment 53 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Heres what I've read/heard

-Sabean said a few months ago that they moved him to first because they believe that his bat will progress faster than his defense and they didn’t want that to be the reason to hold him back. He said that 3rd base was still an option for him and that they have him take grounders at 3rd all the time.

-Felipe Alou was on the Giants pre-game show the other day talking about Villalano. He specifically called him a 3rd basemen(he seemed to put emphasis on that – maybe it was just me). He repeated some of what Sabean said but he added that they want him to lose weight first. I don’t have the pre-game show on my DVR anymore so thats all I remember.

by superk1ng on Aug 1, 2008 3:16 AM PDT   0 recs

Who is Villalano? I can’t find any info on him, or his ability to play 3rd.

by Fresburg on Aug 1, 2008 7:11 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabean said a few months ago that they moved him to first because they believe that his bat will progress faster than his defense and they didn’t want that to be the reason to hold him back. He said that 3rd base was still an option for him and that they have him take grounders at 3rd all the time.

I think I heard Bobby Evans say that on KNBR as well.

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 1, 2008 7:59 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s a faintly ridiculous rationale, isn’t it? They’re worried that his bat will progress faster than his glove, but if they discover somehow - while he’s playing first, mind you - that he actually can play third, he’ll move back. Won’t they lose even more time that way?

Since the day he was signed, everything I’ve read from people not on the Giants’ payroll has suggested he would inevitably end up at first.

by Evan on Aug 1, 2008 8:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I can kind of see if they think he couldn’t handle 3B in A-Ball right now, but didn’t want to leave his bat in Rookie league. But your point still stands, the problem only gets worse as he moves to higher levels.

The only possible solution would be for him to do a lot of work over the summer at 3B to the point of being able to handle the position (at least part time) in San Jose next year, which seems unlikely.

by mxmob33 on Aug 1, 2008 12:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

As usual, the Giants are doing things the opposite of the way every other does them. The standard approach here is the Mat Gamel path: leave him at third, don’t worry about the errors, promote him regardless of how bad the defense is, and hope he somehow figures out how to play the position, knowing that you’re almost certainly going to have to move him eventually. This is the path trod by Mark McGwire, Albert Pujols, Ryan Braun, etc., etc. The Giants, on the other hand, move him to first immediately while deluding themselves (or pretending, more likely) that he’s going to go back to third eventually.

by Evan on Aug 1, 2008 12:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the decision could have to do with limiting his work load

I know it’s been repeated a million times, but he is still just 17. Theres no reason overwhelm him at this point. Let him focus on his ABs and then in the offseason work with him on slimming down, 3B etc

by superk1ng on Aug 1, 2008 1:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That would be a reasonable plan...

But, as Evan points out, the Giants seem to not have a plan. Or perhaps they have a plan so arcane, so out-of-the-box, that the other 29 teams have not yet learned how to emulate them. I’m inclined to believe the former, however.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 2, 2008 4:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess I don't understand...

isn’t 1B one of the most defensively demanding positions? 3B is tough too, don’t get me wrong, but it seems like I’ve heard from people in the game that 1B is one of the tougher positions to play.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 1, 2008 8:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not in my opinion/experience

You can pretty much stick anyone at first base (see Prince Fielder, et al).

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 1, 2008 8:37 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Gore you been infected by Sabean-ittous. It is an ongoing contagion the current front office keeps exposing to the Giants fan base. Belief that only a superior glove should be at first base is a tell tale sign. Lucky there are several ways to combat this syndrome. Some as simple as watch a ball game involve a screwed up teams or visiting and reading site like here or Hard Ball times etc.

Please get well soon.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Aug 1, 2008 8:53 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Also

IIRC they project his body type to develop similarly to Andres Galarraga’s. So it seems as if first base may be the way to go for him.

Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!

by j14 on Aug 1, 2008 8:38 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Monthly splits here

http://firstinning.com/players/Angel-Villalona-a

Hector Sanchez: really getting tired of playing baseball in foreign countries...

by tedfordfan on Aug 1, 2008 6:43 AM PDT   0 recs

3b is for

Nate!@

Fairley odd parent to Wendell

by WTF on Aug 1, 2008 8:11 AM PDT   0 recs

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA is for the sound that groug’s head makes when it explodes.

It is groug, right?

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 1, 2008 8:14 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Shhhh

If we all type very quietly, perhaps groug won’t notice.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 1, 2008 9:25 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

YES IT IS

And I can tell you, it’s very difficult to type without a head.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 1, 2008 1:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You think you have it hard. Some people around here have to do it without hands.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2008 1:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Hey! Grant told us to keep that under wraps until McC Night at the yard.

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Aug 1, 2008 2:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Welcome to the World of Tomorrow!

The Giants have future Hall-of-Famer Conor Gillaspie at 3B, making the move of Villalona to 1B a little more palatable.

by biff pocoroba on Aug 1, 2008 8:30 AM PDT   0 recs

most guys who are too fat (or even bordering on too fat) to play a demanding position like 3B at the age of 17 don’t have much of a chance of being svelte enough to play there at age 25. I give the guy very little chance to play 3B in MLB and I think they should just develop him as a 1B.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 1, 2008 9:56 AM PDT   0 recs

I don’t think there’s much evidence to suggest that fat 17 year olds never become svelt 20 year olds. It’s not like that doesn’t happen all the time.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2008 1:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

What about Rohlinger?

I know he’s not high on most prospect lists, but the guy has some power (18 HRs for Augusta last year) and has only gotten better as he’s moved up the levels. He’s hitting .289/.348/.471 since his mid-season promotion to AA. He could be a possibility as soon as next season.

The All-Father is now a Giant!

by EliminateMe on Aug 1, 2008 10:43 AM PDT   0 recs

Personally I like him and

I think there is a chance that he gets a call up in September with a chance to win the job next spring. Unless we sign Crede in the offseason which I think is nearly inevitable.

Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!

by j14 on Aug 1, 2008 11:54 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

First Base - Under-rated Position

Sorry, but I definitely agree with UnleashTheGore. First base is a very demanding position, and I guarantee you any pitcher or infielder would much rather have a long, lean, athletic, good first baseman over there, rather than a fat guy who can’t play anywhere else. You know how many runs a valuable first baseman saves? Take for instance J.T. Snow. But teams, the Giants in particular, seem to pay top dollar for big hitters and then have nowhere to put them as they get heavier and less agile – so over to first base they go. Angel has a cannon for an arm (or so I’m told) and was originally drafted to play third base. But he has gained some weight and he “feels more comfortable at first base” – even thoug he has something like 13 errors over there in Augusta. In Baseball America’s 2008 Prospect Handbook, Angel is listed as the Giants #1 Prospect at 3B/1B – hard to tell when you’re 17. Brett Pill is listed as their #25 Prospect as a First Baseman. They state that coaches consider him the best defensive first baseman in the Giants organization, above Ishikawa. He’s like 6’4”, lean, and snags everything over there. He has played first base all year up here in San Jose, with Andy D’Alessio DHing and then platooning with Pill once or twice a week. Only recently have they been putting D’Alessio over there to give him some more work at first. I know everyone has different opinions, but I definitely hate it when people say, “You can stick anyone at first.” I believe Pill hit a grand slam last night also, as a DH. I think before people make comments like that they need to actually “see” these guys play the respective positions. I have watched them all year. They even talk about Pablo over at first. He’s O.K. over there for the routine plays, but don’t expect anything spectacular in a bang-bang play.

by flyonthewall on Aug 1, 2008 11:03 AM PDT   0 recs

first base is the most demanding position

except for all the other ones.

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Aug 1, 2008 11:06 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I do agree

I had the fortunate ability to see it from both sides, a pitcher and as a lefty 1B. It’s an annoying position but not nearly as innately demanding as the others (except LF). As a pitcher i loved having a hot shot 1B to snag all the liners, but i also wanted a big bat there to make up for the shitty SS who tries to bunt every single time. Those like J.T. Snow go out of their way to become geniuses at the position and make it look hard, but in all reality all you need ot be able to do is play catch. LF is even easier.

For the record i was booted from 1B because my bat didn’t have enough power and I played amazing D over there, so we can tell how valued D is over there.

by Giant Voodoo on Aug 1, 2008 11:20 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But did you pitch and play 1B on a NCAA championship team?

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 1, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

sure

if you are okay with me lying. We were division 1 at least?

by Giant Voodoo on Aug 1, 2008 4:25 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You were Division 3

At best!

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 2, 2008 4:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Reminds me

That first base is the most demanding position except for all the other ones reminds me of when a long-time coach once told me I was the second-best umpire he had ever seen. Naturally I was curious.

“Who do you think is the best one? ” I made the mistake of asking,

To which he replied, “All the others are tied for first.”

by sharksrog on Aug 3, 2008 1:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I'll bite...

...how many runs does a valuable first baseman save?

And how does that compare to an equivalent third baseman?

The All-Father is now a Giant!

by EliminateMe on Aug 1, 2008 11:35 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah

I was wondering that, too.

Only 865 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Aug 3, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Playing brilliant defense at 1B like Snow or Keith Hernandez might be physcially demanding, but playing adequate defense is not. Don’t agree? Try and picture a MLB manager inserting Dmitri Young in a lineup anywhere but 1B (or DH).

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 1, 2008 1:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I guarantee you any pitcher or infielder would much rather have a long, lean, athletic, good first baseman over there, rather than a fat guy who can’t play anywhere else.

Every pitcher, if he could, would like to have a Gold Glover at every position.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 1, 2008 1:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

a great defensive 1B is a luxury, nothing more. If you and I jogged out onto the field today, you could play a competent first base by the end of the day. There are a few wrinkles on bunt plays, and the occasional cut off from the outfield, but that’s about it. Even in LF you (should…I’m looking at you, Man-Ram) have to get a good jump on a flyball, and at least have an idea where your cutoff man is going to be. Like Voodoo says, basically you need to catch the ball.

by tyrannoman on Aug 1, 2008 3:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

and in LF

the balls are straight and easy to catch.

The balls in RF loop and you need a stronger arm, but it’s wayyyyy too boring in RF.

by Giant Voodoo on Aug 1, 2008 4:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sounds like he has the footwork, arm and enough range to play 3b so hopefully the Giants will return him there. The kid will be 18 in about a week so he has plenty of development still left in his body.

by wilriv21 on Aug 1, 2008 12:12 PM PDT   0 recs

Question

Wouldn’t that be great to have a Gold Glover at every position – especially for the pitchers. It goes without saying that ANY first baseman has to be a good hitter. So here’s another question. Which would you prefer 1) A very good first baseman, good, consistent hitter with doubles and home runs in there as well, or 2) An O.K. first baseman who hits more home runs, but also has tons of K’s. Tough trade-off, huh?

by flyonthewall on Aug 1, 2008 1:47 PM PDT   0 recs

it's *kind* of a false dilemma

I mean, we can pretty easily quantify offensive production these days with OPS+ and modeling a player’s run production. So my answer, anyway, is you pick the player who would add the most runs to your team.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Aug 1, 2008 1:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

So, JT when he was good vs Prince Fielder?

Cause I’ll take Prince.

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Aug 1, 2008 1:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wonder what JT would do….

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2008 1:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

depends on th rest of the lineup...

We could afford even JT’s waning offense when Barry was still cranking 40+ out of the yard, keeping the Giants competitive from game to any-given game.

But THIS lineup….well, to be honest I wouldn’t hesitate to see just how much an Adam Dunn or Ryan Howard transforms the order.
Good firstbasemen fade out of the game all the time, but first basemen that suck but hit (present OR past tense) lots of homeruns stick around for a reason.

by ExcuseMeSwing on Aug 1, 2008 3:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

We could afford even JT’s waning offense when Barry was still cranking 40+ out of the yard, keeping the Giants competitive from game to any-given game.

Still, I’d have preferred a better hitter at 1B all those years. Maybe we’d have come away with a title or two.

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 1, 2008 3:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Goofus warming the cockles of my heart.

I’m sure JT is a great person… but man, there were a few years where even average production at 1B would have been a huge upgrade to the Neifi-level production he was putting out. On a team that was already good (Thanks Barry), who knows what kind of difference it could have made.

by mxmob33 on Aug 1, 2008 4:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

JT gets a bad rap

In his 9 years with the Giants, JT was above average for 1B two seasons, right around average for three more, and just around league average (among all positions) two more. He only fell below that in 2002 and 2005. But even there, he was never Neifiesque; Snow hit .275/.343/.365 in 2005 which beats any of Neifi’s post-Rockies years.

The mostly Bondsless 2005 team wasn’t going anywhere anyway, and the playoffs got cancelled in 2002, so you can’t really pin too much of the team’s shortcomings on Snow.

The All-Father is now a Giant!

by EliminateMe on Aug 1, 2008 4:50 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, Niefi did outslug him that year (.383 to .365) which is pretty horrifying for a 1B. In fact, that wasn’t even JT’s worst slugging year as a Giant.

by mxmob33 on Aug 1, 2008 5:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The Padres TV announcers were saying last night that this year’s Giants team is challenging to be the first major league club with

Sabes insisted last winter that “you don’t have to hit the ball over the fence” to win. I’d like to believe that 2008 will force him to reexamine that proposition, though I’m not sure i can really pull it off (the believin’ part).

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Aug 2, 2008 6:47 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

With...? With...?

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 2, 2008 4:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Wait for it…

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Aug 2, 2008 6:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The way I see it

Angel is 17 in his first year of full season professional ball, living away from home for the first time for half a year, learning English, learning how to do exercises that could help him muscle up and thin down, learning how to play on a team (according to one account I’ve read recently on him on sfgiants.com), learning how to be an adult, learning how to hit against professional pitchers of higher quality than last season. That’s a lot on his plate.

So the Giants put him on 1B, ostensibly so that he can focus more on his hitting and not so much on his defense. Because of all the things I listed above that he is facing, plus there’s probably other distractions like local girls coming onto him and fast food joints at every corner. What is so hard to see about that?

He’s only 17 and he’s still taking grounders at 3B every day, again according to accounts on sfgiants.com, so it is not like it is a permanent move away. They haven’t said he’s only a 1B and, if he is still learning the team concept, having him play 1B gives him a view of what the 1B is facing on every batter when/if he returns to 3B. That could only help, I think, should he return to 3B.

Again, he’s 17. How many college players out there have played one position only in High School, then went to college or joined the pros and then started playing another postion? Somehow despite either not playing it much or not at all in high school they figure it out and play good defense there eventually. So if they return him back to 3B next season, what harm is there that he played 1B this, his first full season?

Heck, they could still play him at 1B next season, then switch him back the next season, Posey changed after his freshman year and in two years he’s considered a great defensive catcher.

Contrary to most talk here, Sabean is not an idiot. They can see that there’s a big hole organizationally at 3B. It doesn’t hurt to have your best prospects play multiple positions that they can handle so that when they come up to the majors, they are not limited to one position. So I think that Villalona is headed back to 3B and prepared to play there until his body and/or defense dictates a move to 1B.

Someone mentioned McGwire as an example of just playing one position but either forgot or is too young to remember that when he made the majors, the A’s actually were playing him at 3B, not 1B. If that guy at 1B didn’t flame out quickly as a MLB prospect, McGwire might have ended up playing 3B for a few years before his size forced him to 1B or LF or DH. So either McGwire had the experience before or during his minor league play, but the point is that he had experience at both 1B and 3B and could be used at either.

And 1B is easier defensely, it is clearly so, as it is the only position where big fat slow men can be placed on the field before the DH came along, and there were plenty of them when I was growing up. It doesn’t take much to be adequate there defensively; it only takes a lot to be great there, but really, you don’t need great defense if he hits well enough. But given my druthers, I would still want good defense there, lots of balls end up there.

In any case, all this strum und drang is a tempest in a teapot, worrying like chicken little that the Sabean is failing, when they appear to have valid reasons to move him to 1B for this season. Don’t worry, be happy: we have Villalona, whether at 3B or 1B or wherever.

The good thing about the Giants is they keep most things hidden behind the kimono but when they do release the information, it usually represents what the organization is thinking and trying to do. They have said that Villalona’s move is not permanent, that it was only to lessen his transition to playing baseball professionally full time. They continue to let him take grounders at 3B during practice and had sfgiants.com report that publicly. They like their players playing multiple positions anyway because then they can come up in a variety of positions. Else Bowker could be stuck in AAA this season instead of starting for us at 1B.

Again, Angel is 17. He has plenty of time to play 3B. If he takes one year each level, that’s A+, AA, and AAA, making him 21 years old at the end of his AAA season. That would give him 3 years of experience there. Plus, he wants to play 3B too, so this should motivate him to work harder playing 3B to show the Giants that he should stay at 3B going forward. He seems to have a good head on his shoulder, sounds willing to work hard plus to show that he deserves the bonus he got, he wants to make the majors as fast as possible. Plenty of time.

Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 1, 2008 5:00 PM PDT   0 recs

Turns out, this is what the Giants are hiding behind the kimono...

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Aug 2, 2008 5:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about San Francisco Giants.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Centipete_rose_small
Winter lines 10/10 and 10/11
Afgankillahshot_small
Denker gone, WTF
Small
winter lines, 10/9/08
Small
"It's not even close"
Small
winter lines, 10/8/08

Recent FanPosts

Steffes_small
A Modest Trade Proposal II: Electric Boogaloo
Small
A Trade for a Young, Elite Power Hitter: Chris Davis
Small
San Fran Rays Watch
Small
How Brian Wilson Regularly Pitches
438010982_36ddb45195_small
A few new trade names...
Irish2_small
How about Dan Uggla?
Hb307-1_small
Rough projections if we stand pat
Small
Baseball Trivia! Matt tricks all

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Managers

Thumb_small Grant

Moderators

Fawlty_small WalrusMan

Dog2_small kenshin1

Cainer_small Natto

Untitled_small howtheyscored

Peeweegeese_small Goofus

ad

Site Meter