Merits Further Discussion: Durham and Agent Jack to Milwaukee?
by delorean on Jul 8, 2008 11:26 AM PDT
161 comments
Yes, it was mentioned in earlier Fanposts (wilriv), and there's even a Fanshot down there (which you ignored, because you don't read the Fanshots), but I think this warrants its own Fanpost.
I posted this over on Bay City Ball this morning:
If Rosenthal is right (not a given), the Brewers are going to go for broke this year with Sheets, Sabathia, and Fielder, and retool next year with comp picks. I love the strategy, and wish them the best. And if it’s true, then I could definitely see them picking up Taschner and Durham, which would be spectacular. Hinshaw kinda-sorta makes Taschner redundant, and we’ve got plenty of other arms waiting in the wings (howbout that metaphor, huh?). If Sabean and Co. moves those guys and get some salary relief and some prospects, that will tell me they’re serious about the whole rebuilding thing. I sincerely hope they are!
Whaddya think? Anyone know the Brewers org well enough to float some potential prospects? Do you think Sabes & Co. will pull the trigger?
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also, whoever posted this on MLB TR:
y’all need to fess up!
As a representative for the Giants of Major League Baseball, let me say we could definitely talk. Gamel’s just the type of prospect we need, I’m willing to deal Cain b/c of what we have in the bigs and what we’ve got coming below (to say nothing of – dogs and cats living together – my belief that Barry Zito will show some improvement here soon). Don’t really have a pressing need for Hardy, but I like him. Maybe send him packing somewhere for a young arm or 1B.Cain’s an enigma wrapped inside a Dodger Dog (0-7 lifetime vs. the Blue, I believe). I’m not sure he’s got the right attitude for a front-of-the-rotation starter. Seems to always pitch just bad or good enough to bitch about losing or wonder why he couldn’t hang on for a win.
Posted by: The Management | July 08, 2008 at 12:49 PM
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 8, 2008 11:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I will hunt him down and skin him and cure the skin into a jerkey jacket that I will wear on a cold morning and eat as the day warms up so that by the time it is warm out, I’m not wearing a jacket anymore and I’ve had a filling breakfast, and I will carve his bones into various utensils and use those bone utensils to butcher the meat and discard the innards, and then I’ll make art out of the butchered meat and sell it to a museum and use the money to buy some lettuce for a salad, because I’ll be hungry again from all the art making, and then I’ll eat a snow-cone, because I’ll be hot from making the salad.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 8, 2008 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Very nicely put. Although I would have been more impressed if you had actually used the innards for something, like divining fortunes in the patterns of the innards splattered on the ground….
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jul 9, 2008 2:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clearly it was howie
He would trade Cain just to get rid of him.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 8, 2008 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was me, I admit it
Kidding! Kidding! Howie get off! Put the jerky-making tools away!
As much as Cain’s struggles scare me, the team’s pitching situation isn’t as strong as we felt earlier in the year. Lincecum’s the only sure long-term guy, Cain is solid but is inconsistent at times, Sanchez looks pretty good but I’d like to see him have two full years under his belt before I make a verdict, but after those guys it’s a crapshoot. Having a “strong” rotation will be based on Zito being able to come close to an average pitcher again and Lowry regaining form.
Trading Cain could be argued, but at this point it may be wise to hang on to him for a year or two to see how the rest of the rotation pans out. If Mad Bum/Alderson/Sosa make their way into the mix, then someone will certainly become expendable.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on Jul 8, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t look at me, I applied for a job there and got turned down. Although the suggested package I wrote for a Gamel trade might earn me a lynching…
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 8, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taschner - Yes, Durham - I don't see it.
Special Agent Jack would be a good fit and he’s from Wisconsin. Durham, I don’t see because the Brewers have Weeks. I know Weeks is injury prone, but I think they might not want to upset him by bringing in Ray-Ray.
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark
by MeSoKrabby on Jul 8, 2008 11:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
From what I’ve read, Ray would be a bench player.
by xanthan on Jul 8, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Durham as a bench player...
...is his lack of versatility; he can only play second. On an AL team he might get some starts at DH as well. As a pinch hitter he’s only .218/.299/.385. That represents only 87 career ABs, so he’s probably a better PH than that indicates, but it doesn’t help the trade value.
For someone who needs a bench player, I would think Aurilia would be a more attractive option. He can play any infield position and has better PH numbers (although, again, small sample size). Durham makes more sense for someone who needs a regular 2B due to injury or suckitude.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
by EliminateMe on Jul 8, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Bewers
Are making a playoff push with a whole bushel of < .700 OPS suckitude @ second base.
Durham is literally the perfect solution for them.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not figuratively though.
Figuratively he would be terrible.
by RougeGorrila on Jul 8, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And metaphorically, he's a wash
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jul 9, 2008 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durham is WAY better than Weeks.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Durham is perfect for them since it is a one year deal and he is much better than Weeks at this point.
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jul 8, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What what what?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 8, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its weird
but its also true
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Jul 8, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess in bizarro, crazy land. But that land is no fun, because facts are false there.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 8, 2008 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the Facts say
Ray Durham EQA = .289
Rickie Weeks EQA = .249
.289 > .249
Ray Durham is better than Rickie Weeks, at least if you think EQA is worth anything (which most do)
Ray Durham is also better than any other second baseman in baseball not named:
Dan Uggla
Ian Kinsler
Chase Utley
Brian Roberts
Brandon Phillips
Dustin Pedroia
Mark Derosa
Orlando Hudson
So yeah, Ray is having a pretty good year…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 8:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ray is having a good year, but we’re looking longterm here.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 9, 2008 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, we arent.
The Brewers are trying to win this year. That qualifies as short term.
In the short term, Ray Durham is outperforming Rickie Weeks, and that is exactly what the Brewers need.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What. We’re not the Brewers. Or did I miss part of this conversation.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 9, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, we're the Brewers now.
You must have missed the memo.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 9, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It really just started with this comment:
Durham is WAY better than Weeks.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 9, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This entire thread
Is about trading Durham to the Brewers.
The reason they would want him is, in the short term, he is better than Weeks.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the difference in their win shares is 5.4 to 5.8 in Durham’s favor. Fielding is part of the game too, and Durham is HORRIBLE. Anyways, you’re basing your judgments of these two off of about 300 PAs. Who do you think is going to be better going forward? I’d bet that Weeks has a better 2nd half than Durham and I can pretty much guarantee Weeks is better from here on out in their respective careers.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 9, 2008 9:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rickie Weeks
isn’t great either. If I were to project Rickie Weeks and Ray Durham for the rest of the year, however, I’d probably guess a repeat of 2007 stats at the end of the year. Remember, http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/splits?playerId=5652&type=batting&year=2007>Rickie Week’s splits had him with a much better second half than first half. Even though he hit .230 last year, who cares when he walks so much? I’d take Rickie Weeks over Durham anyway. I feel like his bust-iness is exaggerated.
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 10, 2008 8:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the Top-20
From Sickels, posted on December of ‘07
1. Matt LaPorta, OF, Grade B+ (great bat, glove??)
2. Manny Parra, LHP, Grade B+ (a really good prospect who needs more attention)
3. Mat Gamel, 3B, Grade B
4. Jeremy Jeffress, RHP, Grade B (assumes he stops smoking dope)
5. Jonathan Lucroy, C, Grade B-
6. Taylor Green, 3B, Grade B-
7. Cole Gillespie, OF, Grade C+
8. Alicides Escobar, SS, Grade C+ (overrated by lots of people IMHO)
9. Caleb Gindl, OF, Grade C+ (very promising, want more data)
10. Angel Salome, C, Grade C+
11. Michael Brantley, OF, Grade C+ (a personal favorite I admit)
12. Lorenzo Cain, OF, Grade C+
13. Zach Braddock, LHP, Grade C+
14. Robert Bryson, RHP, Grade C+
15. Hernan Iribarren, 2B, Grade C+
16. Brent Brewer, SS, Grade C (yes I know all about his tools. He is so damn raw that I don’t believe in him yet.)
17. R.J. Seidel, RHP, Grade C
18. Zack Jackson, LHP, Grade C
19. Cody Scarpetta, RHP, Grade C
20. Dan Merklinger, LHP, Grade C
I don’t know much about the Brewer system to be honest but I want Lorenzo Cain! We need more Cains.
Baseball America had them ranked as the 21st best farm system in this years annual organizational rankings.
by xanthan on Jul 8, 2008 11:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Or Cole Gillespie
Then we could have a Gillespie and a Gillaspie.
However, if we’re giving up Agent Jack Taschner, we might want Zack Jackson to replace him in the action hero department.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
by EliminateMe on Jul 8, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’ll get all the ladies and leave Cain in the dust. Again. First overshadowed by his BFF Tim, and then this. What a kick in the balls.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 8, 2008 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The picture of Bobby Hill in the hot tub with the ladies would suggest otherwsie. (Too lazy to find it, but someone will.)
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 9, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lorenzo Cain isn’t that great IMO. Very raw. Though he does have a lot of speed. He doesn’t get on base very much due to poor BB rate and he doesn’t have the best contact rate either.
Guys the Giants could or should target are Taylor Green (an actual 3B prospect) who can hit, draw walks and stick at 3rd. Jonathan Lucroy, who isn’t known so much for his defense behind the plate but he can hit, and also draw walks. Cole Gillespie, who doesn’t really have any 1 great tool, but is one of those great makeup guys who just play the game well. Angel Solome, if the Brewers won’t give up Lucroy. He’s pretty small at 5’7, but he’s got good defensive abilities and is hitting well this year at AA Huntsville. And then there’s Michael Brantley, who can also reach base, has very good speed, and who hits. The only problem with him is he has no power, which is odd considering he’s an OF/1B prospect.
Both Green and Lucroy have been rumored as PTBNL for the Sabathia deal. But also so has Lorenzo Cain. The Indians were really high on Green and scouted him multiple times.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Some in Cleveland
by wilriv21 on Jul 8, 2008 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plenty considering the Brewers just had 7 picks in the first 100 in this last draft, and they’ll have at least 5 picks before the 2nd round in June of 09. That’s not even counting whatever young International signings or later round kids they’ve found. The Brewers have one of the best scouting operations going right now.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Picking is easier
when you lose all the time and get high picks in the first round…
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 9, 2008 1:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true, but they’ve also done very well outside of the first round. They were one of the better teams to utilize the now deceased Draft and Follow.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 9, 2008 1:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
easier, but the Pirates have proven it isn’t a no-brainer…
by tyrannoman on Jul 9, 2008 9:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
YEAH
Wendell Fairley, Tim Alderson, and Nick Noonan all suck! Manny Burriss will never make the majors! Matt Cain is awful!
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 9, 2008 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's your point?
Wendell Fairly hasn’t really done anything (yet). Nick Noonan and Tim Alderson are doing well, but are still in A/A+ and have relatively limited ceilings. Burriss made it to the majors, but that doesn’t mean he deserves to be there. Matt Cain is awesome. Are you really saying there’s no big difference between high picks and low picks?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2008 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
First, I only mentioned Fairley because he’s in OGC’s sig.
The point is that there is plenty of talent near the end of the first round. OGC always (always always always) says that the reason our farm system was so bad for so long was that we had no high picks. And while there’s some truth to that, we my point is that the organization squandered most of the picks it did have (I don’t know why I switched from we to they when referring to the Giants there), when there is talent available. Alderson’s doing well. Noonan’s doing well. Burriss might be decent. And these are all the kinds of players that we could have had even with bad late-round picks but that we never did until Lowry in 2001.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 9, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And he never ever (ever ever ever) responds when you talk to him about the Red Sox drafts since Theo came.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 9, 2008 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with everything you said. But your original comment was a reply to this - Picking is easier when you lose all the time and get high picks in the first round…, which made it look like you’re trying to prove that there’s no big difference between high picks and low picks in the first round. And there is one.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2008 4:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 8, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Past the top five there I can’t say I know much about these guys. And I dunno, I think Escobar is pretty good.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 8, 2008 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
RICKIE WEEKS
That is an interesting player to think about. Weeks is two years from free agency and is in his arbitration years and has been nothing but a disappointment for the Brewers. He was once regarded as a top 10 prospect in baseball, but he hasn’t had that single breakout year everyone has been expecting. He is currently hitting .208/.317/.362 and is in arbitration years.
How do the Brewers feel about him? Do they just ride him out, or do they think now is the time to get off the pot and go for a more proven 2B option. So far this season Durham has been a vastly superior offensive player to Weeks and could give them some stability.
It’s really tough to gauge, but Weeks is a player I’d be interested depending on how MIL currently values him. Who knows, perhaps they view him as a guy that might be non-tendered and thus would want to trade him? Or perhaps they just refuse to give up on his talent and will ride out the struggles.
Anyways, if I was Sabean I’d look into Weeks. Taschner, Yabu, and Durham (and cash of course) would probably not be enough to trade for Weeks, but that is all dependent on how Melvin values him at this point. if he values Weeks highly still, it’s an avenue not worth pursuing at all because it does nothing for the Giants to pay a fair price for him. Perhaps we could add a prospect to that package and make Melvin really think about it and question the production of Weeks. I’d toss in a decent relief prospect like Hedrick or something if it would help.
www.wazzel.com (prove your sports knowledge if you can)
by NeifiChicken on Jul 8, 2008 11:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Weeks and Bill Hall have been rumored to be on the trade market for sometime now. I think the Brewers were hoping he’d start hitting, but he just keeps getting worse.
Hall was angered by Russell Branyon’s promotion supposedly. So either of them could be possible trade bait as well.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Hall
And I like Weeks, for the right (rock bottom) price.
But frankly, Weeks looks every bit like another Jose Castillo. Don’t forget that 2b is the infield position at which we have the most possibilities in our own system (Frandsen, Velez, Burriss, Denker) so I don’t know that bringing in Weeks really helps us much.
Of those 4 “possible” 2b, I’m nearly 100% sure one will perform @ or above Weeks’ current career rate.
The attractive thing about Hall is that he has shown the ability to play well (even if struggling this year) and plays a position that we have zero possibilities at right now. Adding him to the 3b mix is, IMO, an instant upgrade for today and tomorrow.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t mind Hall either. But Idk how well his numbers would hold up in our park. Its not nearly as favorable as Miller Park.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Despite his ugly average
Rickie Weeks still has a .750 OPS, this horrible season included, and has some speed. I’d love to get Weeks, really.
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 10, 2008 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take Weeks if you can get him
The list of can’t miss prospects is rather lengthy and Weeks may very well end up on that side of the ledger but he could also become Carlos Pena (hot prospect, cool off, get traded and released a couple of times, end up hitting lights out for a year or two). If we could get him it would be a risk worth taking.
Durham and/or Taschner aren’t going to fetch much and I’m skeptical that Weeks would be considered by the Brewers but take what you can get and move on.
by slcgiant on Jul 8, 2008 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point bringing up Pena, as both he and Weeks showed the ability to draw a walk combined with the ability to hit for power, despite struggling otherwise. Pena eventually figured things out. He started slow this year, then got hurt, but he’s starting to raise that Avg since, and I think will have a huge 2nd half to help carry the Rays into the playoffs.
Weeks maybe just needs a change of scenery. He is very talented. I mean his bat speed is ridiculous. He’s also struggled with some injuries in the past that have possibly hindered his development. I think he’d be worth the risk as well.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My biggest problem w/ Weeks
Is that he is a 2b. We already have about 100 2b candidates.
It would be of more benefit to the team as a whole to try and get someone who plays another position.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I don’t think Weeks is completely stuck at 2b by any means. There has been talk of moving him to the OF for a few years. I also don’t see why he couldn’t be tried out at 3B.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then you run into the unflattering comparisons to Jose Castillo.
I’ve never understood the infatuation with Rickie Weeks. I just don’t get it. And, by extension, I presume the A’s are idiots for drafting his brother Jemile last month in the first round; this based on about 20 seconds’ worth of reading that Jemile’s approach is similar to Rickie’s.
To be honest, I don’t like Weeks, Fielder, or Hall. And each for different reasons. I like Corey Hart, love Ryan Braun, and find Hardy to be an enigma wrapped in a bratwurst, but intriguing.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jul 9, 2008 2:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s an outfielder that keeps getting played at 2B. An absolute butcher with the glove.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 8, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BUT WE ALREADY HAVE ONE OF THOSE
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 8, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know! What fun!
We can corner the market on poor-fielding, speedy, frustrating non-secondbasemen.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 8, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would rather not invest a lot
In trying to get a player who might pull a Pena.
I mean, seriously – I would rather get some B or C level prospect than a washed up used to be prospect.
And preferably a non OF / non 2b.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Durham/Tasch for Hall? Makes sense for both sides if Hall is still pissed at the Brewers management.
by boonitez on Jul 8, 2008 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
All over that shit.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not a big Hall fan, I think he’s still mostly living off of his 2006 season. If he could play SS, he’d have value, but I’m not sure he can play SS defensively.
by xanthan on Jul 8, 2008 12:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can barely play 3rd. I doubt he could handle SS. I agree he’s mostly living off of 06. But even then one could argue he’d be a decent short-term solution for 3rd in the interim.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This also sounds like the type of deal Sabean would do, provided he really don’t think Castillo is the “solution”.. What’s Hall’s contract status?
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
09:$6.8MM, 10:$8.4MM, 11:$9.25MM club option, $500K buyout)
by Cainer on Jul 8, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh. Pass.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing!
It was actually scarier the second time. Yikes.
Molina's gonna test his arm...
by Victorious Secret on Jul 9, 2008 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
09:$6.8MM, 10:$8.4MM, 11:$9.25MM club option, $500K buyout)
by Cainer on Jul 8, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ugh. Pass
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I look at Hall
As the type of player who could fill in @ 3b for the next 2 or so years until various MiL players are ready.
He’s not great, but he’s not horrible (and only likely to rebound, not get worse). The upside if he rebounds is huge, and the downside of him not is still better than Castillo.
Plus he has some pop, which this team desperately lacks.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And and And
This team has ZERO 3b potential for the next ~ 2 years anyways, so its really like shifting durhamesqe player to 3b where he isn’t blocking anyone (and subtracting 6 years of age).
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so its really like shifting durhamesqe player to 3b
Granted Hall is younger than Durham, but Durham is a much more accomplished hitter. I’d be thrilled if Hall was Durhamesque, but he’s not.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean Durhamesque
In that he is an older player who can come in and play a position for you where you don’t have any in house options.
He’s not old enough however to be an impending disaster.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS+
“and the downside of him not is still better than Castillo.”
Judging from Hall’s 2007 (89 OPS+) and 2008 (83 OPS+) numbers and Castillo’s current season (93 OPS+), that might not be the case.
Castillo might be having his best season ever, but Hall hasn’t approached his career best. I agree that Hall’s ceiling is much higher, but his last two season have been pretty awful.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and for the remaining money he’s getting, I’d definitely pass. I’d rather get Weeks, and hope that he turns it around. Get Weeks and some prospect or two. Maybe a mid level positional guy, and a throw in arm. Depending on how badly the Brewers would sell off Weeks, of course. I can’t think he would have a ton of value right now.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. I doubt we can get Weeks, but he’s by far the more interesting commodity. The fact that we have four mediocre 2B prospects shouldn’t stop us from taking a chance on a high-upside guy.
by onlxn on Jul 8, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why on earth
Would you want fuckin Weeks. I’m not sure what the point of trading for PROVEN non performers is…
I would rather take my chance with some MiL scrub who has at least yet to prove that he sucks.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Weeks has had periods of very good major league production. And he’s a patient hitter. I’d take a chance on him, especially if we could get him for Durham/Taschner.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same.
His stock might be down this year, but for Durham and Taschner? I’d do that deal in a blink of an eye.
This is Durham and Taschner people.
by xanthan on Jul 8, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Down this year?
Week’s career OPS is .749. No, he is not the worst player in baseball like he is playing thus far this year.
However, he is not now and never has been very good. 4 years of ML suckitude trumps “periods of very good major league production”
I would be more into him if he played SS or 3b, but frankly I feel that one of Frandsen/Velez/Denker/Buriss can manage a ~.750 OPS over the next few years @ the position, so I would rather try to go for players at 3b/ss/1b with our limited trade value.
Not to mention my data says that Weeks is on a 1 year deal this season – so he would be a rental @ best unless we extended him.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s in his arbitration years, he’s not a rental.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I see one year of suckitude, two years of meh, and one pretty good year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Define "meh"
He had a .806 OPS last year, which is pretty okay.
Other than that…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
108 OPS+ is not okay, it’s above average and for a second baseman it’s quite good
the two years of 90-96 were meh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad
When does that expire however? He’s been in the ML for 4 years now it looks like
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he’s two years from FA after this year
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point isn’t that Weeks has contributed a .750 OPS so far in his ML career. That’s not great. It’s sorta presentable – I’m not convinced that Velez or Burriss will ever get there, for instance – but it’s nothing really worth seeking out.
The point is that we’re trying to rebuild. And to do that, we’re going to need some honest-to-God good players to do it. Assembling an entire roster of cheap, homegrown .750 OPS guys is a great way to turn into the Pirates. We’re going to need a .900 OPS from a position or two.
Weeks is INFINITELY more likely to reach that level than Frandsen, Velez, Denker and Burriss COMBINED. This guy has some incredible tools, and some incredible scouting reports… those things matter far more than our amateur opinions of minor-league stats.
There might be a cheap, passable starting 2B in the F/V/D/B quartet. There is no star. Rickie Weeks gives us a chance at having a star.
by onlxn on Jul 8, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent post
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 8, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
I disagree on the likelyhood of Weeks ever becoming a star.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
me too
but he’s definitely got a shitload of potential. He would probably be a star now if he didn’t get injured every other day.
by boonitez on Jul 8, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"He would be a star now if he didn't suck"
....
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
would you also say Nick Johnson sucks?
kinda tough to get into a good rhythm when your out every other week. I think he still could be good if he could stay healthy for a year or two.
by boonitez on Jul 8, 2008 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saying Rickie Weeks sucks is fucking insane.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 8, 2008 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which numbers are you looking at?
He certainly appears sucky to me.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jul 9, 2008 3:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess his BA sucks, so there’s just no way he could be useful…
He’s drawing walks and hitting with some pop and his defense has been fine this year. There’s a difference between under performing lofty expectations and sucking.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 9, 2008 7:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is also a difference between a sub <.700 OPS
and sucking, but I’m struggling to define it…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But this (half) year is the first time in his career he’s had that (and just barely). Last year it was over .800, and on the career it’s .750, so there’s more than a little cherry-picking going on in that comment.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 9, 2008 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, but at the same time
His career is < .750 – not exactly a superstar.
I mean, sure – he could get better. Anything can happen. However I guess I have less faith in a guy who has been in the ML for 4 years and has never really demonstrated to be any more than average (and frequently less than) magically improving than I do someone who has been in the ML and has yet to be given the opportunity to demonstrate their mediocrity.
Everyone likes to talk about the Carlos Pena’s of the world – but for every one of those there are 10 Pedro Feliz, Jose Castillo and Tony Torcato’s.
The chances are that Weeks is what he is – a slightly below average 2b w/ a questionable glove. As cheap roster filler – sure.. but It is my opinion that we already have some internal options that will be slightly below average 2b’s w/ questionable gloves – so why waste trade “value” on acquiring more.
If we didn’t have 4-5 players essentially waiting for their turn @ 2b, My tune would be different – I just think that combined with the likelihood that Weeks outperforms his career average in the future, trading for a average ML 2b isn’t really a great move for us.
I would rather see us trade for the Weeks equivilent @ 3b or SS.
Altho we already kinda have that in Jose Castillo.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since you’re in love with his bad first half this year, let’s look at his second half last year:
.251/.422/.481
SUPERSTAR!
Look at his years in the league, he’s improved in each one except for this half season so far. Each year he’s increased his OBP and SLG. I don’t know what you’re looking at, but if you don’t see a promising player that is getting better you’re just being biased.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 9, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how far to the right will these replies go, I wonder?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 9, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess this is as far as they go.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 9, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Click the wide button at the top. It can go a little wider.
Obscure reference:
“Wider. Wider. Too wide!”
“Fuck yeah that wide.”
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 9, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get it!
It’s Insane, This Guy’s Taint!
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 9, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh, Mr. Show, you never let me down.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 9, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A fitting end!
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow this is pretty far to the right
Giants! Giants! HELP US GOD!
by j14 on Jul 9, 2008 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what Bill Kristol said!
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 9, 2008 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This has completely stopped threading for me, it’s just a long line of comments that are all aligned exactly the same.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 10, 2008 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
Only 881 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 10, 2008 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about taint?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 10, 2008 11:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. This. In multiple ways.
The point is that we’re trying to rebuild. And to do that, we’re going to need some honest-to-God good players to do it. Assembling an entire roster of cheap, homegrown .750 OPS guys is a great way to turn into the Pirates. We’re going to need a .900 OPS from a position or two.
I agree with this pretty much exactly. I even have proof.
Although I might be a little skeptical of Weeks chances, I feel that he would be a good player to target if he can come cheaply in terms of talent. He’s a representative of the whole “buy low” mantra that many here have trumpeted repeatedly.
I also like the Carlos Pena example. It is very valid.
Only 884 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 8, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are way underselling Weeks here. He’s a 25-year-old second baseman who was an above-average hitter his first three years in the bigs, and the scouting reports are fantastic.
Check out the EQAs on his Baseball Prospectus card. Major league average is .260.
Is he risky? Yes. But he’s still a pretty attractive commodity.
by Dan from NM on Jul 8, 2008 8:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
How long are these periods? Days? Months?
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he had a 108 OPS+ overall last year. In the second half, he hit for a .903 OPS in 245 PA. He doesn’t hit for average even when he’s going great (except for his August, last year I guess) but he walks a lot and has decent power for a middle infielder.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Weeks you need to IGNORE the #'s
and focus on the talent. Acquiring him is like acquiring a wild card. He’s shown he can be one of the top 2B in the game and he’s shown he can also be one of the most detrimental.
It’s strictly a gamble on tremendous talent and new scenery making a difference. Weeks might only have 2 years left before FA, but he has the potential (the key word here) to go .285/.370/.500 with 25+Hr’s and 30+ SB’s. That’s the kind of talent he is and he’s had stretches where he’s shown it.
Brandon Phillips was a good prospect that never showed his substantial promise until later on, and perhaps Week’s (who has a similar skill set) could be a similar story.
If Weeks can fulfill his potential in SF, even if we aren’t a contending team, he will turn into an extremely valuable trade chip later on (or possibly a guy we could even extend) and net us something much better than whatever price we’d pay now to get him
www.wazzel.com (prove your sports knowledge if you can)
by NeifiChicken on Jul 8, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, the Giants need to do a lot more buying low than they usually do.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 8, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also like the 85+% success rate stealing bases.
Spped and defense, baby!
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
except for the defense.
he’ll fit right in
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 8, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, his defense will fit right in. Our defense is shitty at best.
Anyways, his defense has been decent this year.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 8, 2008 11:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Phillips is another great comparison
Only 884 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 8, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In his crappy years, he was plagued by injuries.
Granted, he’s almost never healthy so that has to be part of the equation too. Of the guys left in the Brewers system, only Gamel probably has more upside.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 8, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My question was more of a joke…see, his last name is “weeks” as opposed to “days” or “months” and…ah, screw it.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked the joke
In fact, I wouldn’t mind going back for seconds.
Only 884 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 8, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’m having a tough time getting past Hall’s contract. That’s some serious scratch for a guy with serious question marks. I’d rather have another year of Castillo on the cheap.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall's contract is discouraging
But details such as that can be ironed out.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because a team like the Brewers can really afford to pick up half of Hall’s contract.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
bite yer goddamned tongue
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 8, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this Goofus
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 8, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As do I.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 8, 2008 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would it be possible/worth it if the Brewers paid some of it?
We keep talking about the Giants having to throw in some money to get rid of undesirables. Is Hall enough of an undesirable that the Brewers would pay part of his salary?
Only 884 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 8, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It all depends how much confidence they have that Gamel could play 3rd. By most accounts he looks even worse than Braun there.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall’s terrible contract could be ironed out with a Zitomatic brand iron.
Plus some Robertsite spray starch
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
by foothillsfan on Jul 8, 2008 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I lol'd at this brilliance.
Fairley odd parent to Wendell
by WTF on Jul 8, 2008 1:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously
the answer is to trade Zito for Hall
by Giant Voodoo on Jul 8, 2008 3:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So, to summarize this thread:
- Weeks good
- Hall bad
- Zito really bad
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 8, 2008 3:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And, in a weird twist of fate...
Bad Bill Hall is better than good Weeks.
By OPS, anyway.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 8, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is yet another reason OPS is a bad, lazy stat. It’s quick and dirty, and nothing more.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 8, 2008 11:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like my stats like I like my women; fast and dirty.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 9, 2008 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s weird. I also like my stats like I like my women: obscure, and only best enjoyed in the presense of other stats.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 9, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW Anybody notice
that the Cubs just picked up Rich Harden? Point/counterpoint, and I believe the ball is now in Milwaukee’s court to mix cliches into a sort of muddish brown.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 8, 2008 3:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow. I know Billy Beane is a genius and all, but he should have been able to get a lot more for Rich Harden. Granted his injury history makes him sketchy, but I don’t really like who the A’s got back at all, especially considering Gaudin went to the Cubs too.
Murton and Gallagher, plus 2 scrubs? Terrible trade for the A’s. You could have done better than that Billy.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
im not sure id call patterson a scrub with a minor league 834 OPS at 2nd base and only 25 plus the cubs sandwich pick in 2007.. i actually really really like the deal for the A’s. 3 major league ready players + a prospect for a guy who probably wont pitch more than 5 games more this year and gaudin who isnt good
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
by Azmanz on Jul 8, 2008 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gaudin >/= to Gallagher. Patterson is a scrub. Kid won’t hit at the ML level.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 8, 2008 6:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
(crying)
If we trade Taschner . . . sniff . . . then the Brewers fans have to take real good care of him. And walk him every day . . .sniff . . . and he has a really cool nickname and they have to use it cuz that’s what he likes to be called.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 9, 2008 7:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
So
the Brewers need to answer the Cubs’ aquisition of Harden with another trade for a pitcher…Jack Taschner, step right up! You’re gonna love Bernie, and the sausage races!!
by tyrannoman on Jul 9, 2008 9:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I meant to ask this earlier: Why are we in a big rush to ship off Special Agent Jack? Isn’t he pretty damn good and pretty damn cheap and pretty damn young enough to be part of the proverbial “next good Giants team”? If the feeling is that younger LHPs like Hinshaw make him expendable, that’s cool, but isn’t Durham/Taschner for Hall or Weeks undervaluing Taschner?
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 9, 2008 12:17 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Possibly.
I’m in no huge rush to move Taschner explcitly
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 9, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really sure what the market for above average, but not great middle relievers is.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 9, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My guess the market is above average, but not great
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 9, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aren't you overvaluing Taschner?
The guy was definitely a below-average reliever last year. This year he’s good, not great. His career ERA of 4.62 is very MEH. Sure there are a lot of good things about him, but I don’t think we could get much in terms of a trade.
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 10, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But even a MEH lefty is worth more than some guy another team’s looking to just dump, IMO.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jul 10, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know the Brewers' minor league prospects
I really don’t know much about the Brewers’ minor league prospects, but the guy who caught my eye in a cursory inspection was their #3-rated prospect, shortstop Alcides Escobar, a 21-year-old who is hitting .327 in AA after batting .325 last season at High A Breverton, a pitcher’s park. Escobar went on to split his season last year at AA Huntsville, where he batted .283 before improving to the .327 mark this season.
I don’t know anything about his fielding except that Baseball American describes him as a “smooth shortstop, with nice range, soft hands and a strong throwing arm,” but how much else is there to know? :)
Escobar doesn’t walk much (20 walks in 382 at bats this season), but with 56 strikeouts, he doesn’t strike out a lot either. His seven homers thus far this season equal his combined total of last year.
The Giants probably don’t have enough to get him, but if the Brewers truly want Durham and Taschner, I would begin the talks with Escobar. And I would even be willing to throw in Dave Roberts! :)
by sharksrog on Jul 9, 2008 3:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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