wtf? July 1: Vizquel won't be playing as much
Hasn't he started every game since that declaration (might have sat out 1)? This is ridiculous; if a young player was scuffling like this, they would have sent him down by now and at a bare minimum he wouldn't be getting any playing time.
If this was the Niners and the coach was fucking up as bad as The Gigantic Head (oh, that's offsides, isn't it? He's probably going to cry himself to sleep tonight on his big giant pillow) the fan base would be in an uproar, the coach would be constantly booed, letters to the editor would be coming in full rant, etc. Instead, with the Giants it seems like it's "oh, we have such a beautiful ballpark! Look--there's a boat going under the bay bridge! How dreamy."
I long for the days of Candlestick and the jaded fan. rant over.
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I’m with you. If I see one more quote from Bochy and/or Sabean about how he’s close to turning it around I’m going to puke. The player himself doesn’t think he should be playing. You know why Vizquel continues to play?? Because Bochy doesn’t have anyone even older to take his place.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jul 4, 2008 7:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Institutional Tardery
Most clubs seem to suffer from value rigidity. They get stuck on the idea that just because they’ve signed Player X to a certain contract that this contract represents his actual value at any given time. To admit otherwise would be to admit to a mistake; there aren’t a lot of humble people in positions of authority in baseball.
Another reason is respect for veterans. It’s probably Omar’s last year. Likely the club wants to give him a chance to “turn it around” and go out with his head up or at least have a long-shot chance to catch on somewhere else next year. You treat veterans otherwise and word gets around and then you have trouble signing free agents.
In practical terms it’s just the difference between a clapped-out old pickup actually reaching the junkyard or burning on the side of the highway en route. But that’s how the business of baseball is played.
Take Vizquel’s playing time as a hopeful sign that this season is a lost cause in the view of Giants management and that they are less like to do anything truly stupid at the trade deadline.
Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.
by S.F. Giangst on Jul 4, 2008 8:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe if the word got out that we treated our senior citizen players poorly they wouldn’t want to play for us no matter how much Sabean offered them.
Proud father of Eric Surcamp! I sure hope we sign him.
by The Thrill on Jul 5, 2008 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only comparison I can cook up is that Sabean is one of those parents that leaves boiling pots of water on the stove unattended, plenty of sharp cutlery within reach, and a loaded gun laying around. Our Buckethead stand-in for a manager is like kid who’s running around the house and climbing onto the stove, throwing the knives around with no care, and ohhh…look at this…a pretty gun…I wonder how much damage I could cause with this!!
Our only hope is that ol’ Buckethead boils his own skin off, falls onto said cutlery, then promptly shoots himself…where you might ask? Well in the head, of course…that thing is a BIG target.
Ok…so maybe my analogy is a little too grotesque and inappropriate…the point I was getting at is that our GM has done nothing but supplied our equally-at-fault skipper with the necessary tools required for this idiotic assembly of talent.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Jul 4, 2008 9:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for making this post. I have fought the urge everyday for about the past week to make a post asking why the hell we are still playing Omar Vizquel.
There is legitimately no logical reasoning to be playing him right now. We have a player behind him in Emmanuel Burris who (a) has more upside for the future and (b) is a better player right now! I truly can’t understand why we continue to trot Vizquel out there when it is obvious that he isn’t doing us any good in the present, and we all know that he will not do us any good in the future.
Thanks for the past few years Omar, now grab some pine. Sheesh.
D
by sunnyd100 on Jul 4, 2008 10:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Respect
I am all for handing Omar a little respect. Let Manny play against southpaw pitchers and ease him in a little against the righties.
Those who want to dump Omar are overlooking two important things IMO:
First, why dump a class act in a season in which wins don’t matter and in fact, the fewer wins, the higher the much-needed draft pick.
Second, Manny Burriss isn’t ready to play every day. Yes, I realize he has a pretty good average—but that is because the Giants have shielded him from right-handed pitchers and let him feast on southpaws, whom he seems to hit much better.
Has everyone forgotten that it was just over a year ago that Manny was DEMOTED from San Jose because he was hitting only .165. Over the winter I posted an odd theory that unless there was psychological damage, I thought Manny would have gotten more or less well had he stayed in San Jose. His line drive rate when he batted .165 for San Jose was actually higher than after he was demoted to Augusta and batted over .300. The big difference in his batting average between the two stops was that he had only one infield hit in San Jose but a TON of them in Augusta.
As ironic as it would be, it may be that Manny hit “better” for Augusta than for San Jose because he didn’t hit the ball as hard.
Still, when a guy hits a combined .250 or whatever it was between High A and Low A, isn’t it a bit much to expect him to play everyday in the majors the next year? And while the Giants probably should have started the season with Ivan Ochoa instead of Brian Bocock to begin with and could bring Ivan up to back up or even split time with Manny, if Omar goes, the Giants have no one to even back Manny up who is presently on the major league roster. I guess Rich Aurilia could do it, but he now seems to be more of a corner infielder range-wise.
So to be perfectly honest, I think those who want to jettisone Omar are both unappreciative and short-sighted. And believe it or not, Omar is actually starting to hit the ball a little.
I wouldn’t vote for Omar for the Hall of Fame. Yes, he compares reasonably well with fellow countryman Luis Aparacio and Ozzie Smith. But the shortstop position has changed since those guys played, and while they were at the top of their position, that really hasn’t been the case with Omar.
So I don’t think I’m being slanted toward Omar. I just think the guy deserves a little respect. No, I didn’t want the Giants to re-sign him. But once they did so, they took on the possible responsibility for being the team with whom he would end his proud career. If you bring the girl to the dance, you treat her right and make sure she gets home safely.
by sharksrog on Jul 4, 2008 11:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It isn’t our fault if no one wants him after we cut him.
by rotorueter on Jul 4, 2008 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Manny Burriss isn’t ready to play every day.
No he isn’t. But sitting on the bench won’t make him any readier. He shouldn’t be in the majors right now, but he is, so you might as well play him. Playing Burriss over Omar will help us both in the present and in the future.
I think those who want to jettisone Omar are both unappreciative and short-sighted.
You don’t have to release him. He’s a 41 y-o SS, it’s perfectly reasonable to let him start only half of the games. Even Vizquel said he understands that Burriss needs to get some AB’s.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 1:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you
I agree with you that Manny should start half the games—and that even better, he should be playing every day in the minors.
by sharksrog on Jul 5, 2008 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
8 consecutive years, winning the Gold Glove
What must the guy do to get into your HOF? Cure cancer?
I know the whole award is a bit ludicrous to begin with….but dude…just because the game changed around him…that doesn’t make his defensive contributions any less meaningful.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Jul 5, 2008 2:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
just because the game changed around him…that doesn’t make his defensive contributions any less meaningful.
No. It makes his offensive contribution less meaningful. You could make a case for him as a HOFer, but he’s very borderline IMO. And since Dave Concepcion (who’s career was practically identical to Vizquel’s) didn’t even come close to getting in, I don’t see how Vizquel has a chance.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 3:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Rog has it completely backwards. He DOES belong in the HOF but he doesn’t belong in the lineup anymore. All those Gold Gloves and all those hits means something, and unfortunately for Omar now, a .162 batting average means you sit or get released. As for Manny not being ready for the major leagues, don’t you have to actually give him a chance to play before you make that determination?? In fact, in order for Burriss to reach Omar’s level of incompetence this season all he has to do in his next 35 atbats is to get minus 6 hits. If he does that, he ties Omar in offensive production.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jul 5, 2008 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Jul 5, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Omar’s had a great career but if Concepcion isn’t HOF worthy than neither is Omar.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
seriously, who cares about the Hall of Fame?
maybe it’s just my football background talking here, but I think baseball fans waste way too much time debating the relative merits of the hall of fame, whether records are tainted or not, player comparisons across generations, etc. Can the guy help the team win now? Not as an everyday player, no. Can Burriss? We don’t know because he doesn’t play much. Can ochoa? Well, he’s buried in the central valley somewhere.
The management of this team owes it to the fans to get some of these “can he play at the major league level” questions answered over the course of the next 3 months so we don’t have the same damn problem heading into next year. Harper, Nate Dog and the G Child, Manny, Ochoa, etc. We need more of these guys and less of Omar, Ray-Ray, Hey-yo Ritch-eee, Roberts (he’s not even active and I’m sick of him), et al.
No offense, but this is where these conversations get dumb-who gives a damn about the hall of fame for Omar Vizquel? Keep the eyes on the prize-the issue is Brian Sabean and Bruce Bochy (whose head looks like an orange on a toothpick) continueing to play Omar in spite of the fact that he has no future with the team, can’t help the team win now, and we have no idea if any of the minor league players we have can play.
by joe t on Jul 5, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
than = then.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know
You know I USUALLY have it backwards, Mark! :)
I could be wrong. Maybe Manny IS ready for the majors. I think as a right-handed hitter against southpaws, that may be the case. I think fielding-wise he’s fine and that his base running of major league caliber. I just think he needs a lot of work batting left-handed, and even if he shares time with Omar, it will likely come nearly as much against southpaws as against righties.
As for the Hall of Fame, I have changed my mind on that since the season began. Not because of Omar’s bad year. I changed my mind before he was even healthy enough to play. Dave Del Grande wrote a column that convinced me that Omar was never among the very best at his position and thus shouldn’t be a Hall of Famer.
And here you thought I couldn’t change my mind. :)
by sharksrog on Jul 5, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unappreciative?
My level of appreciation is directly proportional to a player’s performance. I appreciated Omar plenty when he was playing well, and now that he has sucked for the past few months, I am no longer appreciating him. That’s just me, I have a hard time finding a lot to appreciate in a 41 year old with an OPS of .416 and an OPS+ of 12.
The overappreciation of veterans is arguably the primary cause of the Giants’ futility over the past several years, so forgive me if I do not feel like continuing that cycle. It may end up that a veteran or two has to get their feelings hurt, but that is okay, this isn’t little league.
D
by sunnyd100 on Jul 5, 2008 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know what’s amazing to me?? They showed no loyalty or appreciation to a guy who played for them since 1993 and put them into playoffs and a World Series, yet they show loyalty to a guy who’s been here for three years. They showed Barry the door while he was still productive, and they continue to pay and play Omar when he’s clearly finished. If anyone is going to show Omar the loyalty and respect he supposedly deserves, it should be the Cleveland Indians and not the San Francisco Giants. Cut Omar loose, and if the Indians don’t sign him, it’s on them, not us. And I don’t want to hear about steroids and the media circus, because something like loyalty is supposed to supercede all those things. I believe that’s the definition of loyalty. Loyalty=Put up with all the bullshit because you appreciate everything someone did for you. Barry put money in their pockets, filled the ballpark and made them win. What has Omar done to deserve the treatment they wouldn’t give to Barry?? And this is from someone who had no problem with them parting with Barry, because this was supposed to about rebuilding. However when you look on the field and see Omar, Winn, Vizquel, Ray, and Richie playing everyday, you wonder where the hell are they hiding the kids that made getting rid of Barry the way to go. And by the way, the division shits and you’re only five games out. Think Barry might have helped you more than Richie and Ray Ray do??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jul 5, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And by the way, the division shits and you’re only five games out. Think Barry might have helped you more than Richie and Ray Ray do?
I’m pretty sure that 120 games of 43 y-o Bonds < 150 games of Winn/Rowand/Lewis.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah you’re probably right. What good would 28 homeruns and 132 walks in 340 atbats do for our juggernaut of an offense?? Winn, Rowand and Lewis all do that in their sleep. Come to think of it, they ONLY do that in their sleep!!
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jul 5, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Bonds disucssion is really Moot.
Having him on this team would help a lot this year – but ultimately it would have only resulted in delaying Fred Lewis’ emergence another year.
So what’s the point?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 5, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand is on pace for a VORP of 38. Lewis is on pace for 37. Winn for 32. PECOTA* projected Bonds to have a VORP of 25 this year. His 90o percentile projection, which is basically a best case scenario, is a VORP of 37.8.
When you add defense to the equation, Rowand and Winn are clearly better than what we could have reasonably expected from Bonds. It’s a closer call between Fred and Barry, but I’ll still take Fred.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
*PECOTA ain’t perfect but it’s the best we’ve got (sorry howtheyscored).
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 5, 2008 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU
For making this fan post. I have been extremely frustrated by the same exact issue.
Let’s look at the facts:
1.) Omar can’t hit. He is also 41 and coming back from a rather serious knee injury. He never hit that well in the first place, and the chances are he will not “resume” hitting any time in the future.
2.) Omar has taken all of the heat OFF management (as any self respecting veteran should) by publicly stating he will not have his feelings hurt if he sits – he understands that he is not performing well enough to start on a ML team.
3.) There is a kid sitting on the bench who plays short stop, is definitely young enough to be the SS for this team for 15 years to come, and in limited ML playing time is batting .277/.339/.337. No, he’s not a power hitter – but he certainly makes contact and as far as we can tell thus far can hit at least a little.
So why on earth is Buriss backing up Omar instead of the other way around? Even all of the reasons previously stated that center around “respect” are invalid because Omar himself came out and essentially said “Don’t play me, I’m not carrying my own weight”.
So I am truly baffled. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg, let’s look at this season position by position.
1st base. We were supposed to be starting a “young” Dan Ortmeier at the position. Well, after a lackluster spring training he got so buried in the bench that he has seen a total of 4 games at the position and 64 at bats the entire season. As a reference, he has exactly twice as many at bats as Matt Cain. Replacing him for the most part has been a platoon of Rich Aurilia and John Bowker. So, in the end, at first base we have a “young” player getting approximately 50% of the playing time.
2nd base. We started the season with a combination of Velez and Durham. Buriss came up a while later and so did Denker. That means we’ve had 3 young players that can play that position avaliable. What we’ve received however is 54 games of Ray Durham, 20 games with Velez, and diddly-squat with the other two. Let’s not forget that Velez only got those 20 games because Durham was injured. Since Durham has been healthy, it’s been the all Ray every day show at 2b.
SS. Bochy’s hand was forced into Bocock by injury. As soon as Vizquel came back, we have seen essentially 100% Vizquel despite his putrid performance. (Hell, even Bocock was arguably better @ the plate w/ a .143/.258/.156 and essentially the same in the field)
3rd. Well, Castillo -nuff said. Not really Bochy’s fault I guess (Altho I would have liked to see Velez start a few games there personally – maybe Denker too. If you’re going to hand the position to a converted 2b, then why not split that time with some other available 2b’s.)
LF – Lewis. The only freaking reason that Lewis has gotten 62 starts in LF is because Roberts is hurt. The ONLY reason.
CF – Rowand. No complaints here, He is part of the present and future and should be starting every game he can. Bochy hasn’t really had any input on this however so it’s a non factor in our judgement.
RF – Winn. 74 starts in RF – Horowitz, Bowker, and even Ort could take AB’s here – but just about every single game has gone to Winn..
C – Okay, I guess not really Bochy’s fault – no real “young” options here. Molina is also only 33 and could reasonably be around with this team for another 2-3 years (backing up Posey) so time “invested” in him is not as complete a waste as it is with, say, Durham.
So, essentially we have 1.5 positions out of 9 where a veteran is not playing everyday. LF and 1B. LF is due to injury to a veteran (IE no veteran options) and 1B is due to a lack of 1B veteran options as well (Also, let us not discredit Bowker’s Power which I think has impressed.)
So, in all of this rambling I guess my underlying point is that the only positions where a young player is getting the bulk (or even a significant percentage) of playing time are those where Bochy does not have a veteran option.
Bochy just won’t play the kids – he absolutely wont unless he has no other option. He is far and away the wrong manager for a rebuilding team.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 5, 2008 12:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bochy’s hand was forced into Bocock by injury.
Hee hee!
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 5, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You would think that his hand being forced into Bocock would actually have bee the cause of the injury.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 5, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hardly see what’s so amusing about someone getting hurt. Is this the way we treat other human beings when.. oh wait, I just got it! HA!
by Natto on Jul 5, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’ve been complaining about all the veterans playing everyday all season long, and the Giants’ have made it sound like it’s a showcase thing. Sabean needs to prove it by getting them all out of here by August 1. You could easily make the case that the Giants’ have delayed their rebuilding program one full year by playing all the veterans instead of looking at the kids. This whole year could have been about playing Nate, Velez, Manny, Denker, Lewis and Bowker. We might already have some answers about them instead of more questions. And the funny thing is, how much worse would the team be if they had played the kids all year. They’re going nowhere anyway.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jul 5, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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