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Home Field advantage, my ass!!

Looking around the league, you can see that home field advantage has increased greatly this year. I don't why that is, but how could I, because after all I'm the fan of the one team that doesn't seem to have any. Why do we stink at home?? Probably because of a massive miscalculation by our GM. He somehow came to the  conclusion that you win in a pitcher's park with pitching, speed and defense and offense is not necessary. We can argue all day about how good the pitching, speed and defense of this team is, but that's a post for a different day, and right now I'm going to rip them for their offense.  Why would you come to this conclusion anyway?? Previous Giants' teams that have been successful at ATT have been good hitting teams with so so pitching. Our best home teams were teams with Bonds, Kent, a young Aurilia, and guest stars who had good offensive years like Ellis Burks, Reggie Sanders and even David Bell, and those pitching staffs had ordinary guys like Russ Ortiz, Kirk Rueter and Livan Hernandez leading them.  Is Brian Sabean this stupid that he could think that he could win with no offense whatsoever?? The obvious answer is yes. It's almost unfair to force Giant fans to watch a team whose heart of the order is the powerless Randy Winn, the ponderous Bengie Slo-lina, and the inconsistent Aaron Rowand. If the other team hits a 3 run homer, the game is over. Right handed hitters CAN hit homeruns at ATT. Lefthanded hitters CAN hit homeruns at ATT, although it's harder. Who can't hit homeruns at ATT?? The stiffs that Brian Sabean has provided for us fans to watch. Brian, you screwed up yet again this year. Fix it!!!

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Is Brian Sabean this stupid that he could think that he could win

Who knows. But I certainly didn’t expect many wins out of these guys.

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Jul 27, 2008 9:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm with rxmeister

I see two things about our park that should affect the way the GM constructs the team:

1. Taking the current roster out of the discussion entirely, it seems to me that if (and it’s a big if) AT&T is a pitcher’s park, then the GM should concern himself primarily with acquiring hitters than can do well in that environment. That’s not to say you ignore the pitching, of course, but that you recognize that the difficulty lies in getting adequate offense in that environment. And that you take steps to solve this problem. Other than the monstrous RF gap, I’m not entirely certain AT&T is a pitcher’s park, but if you believe it is…..

2. Whatever offense is allowed at AT&T, it seems to clearly favor right-handed power hitters over left-handed power hitters. Bonds was simply the exception that proved the rule. With that in mind, the GM should not only be looking for hitters over pitchers, he should be looking for RH power hitters over LH power hitters. This, Sabean has not done. And, as a corollary, he should favor RH pitchers over LH pitchers (to turn around opposing team’s switch-hitters, and to minimize the power of opposing RH power hitters). This doesn’t seem to be in Sabean’s thinking at all, based on June’s draft.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Jul 29, 2008 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Weak offense. Shaky defense. I am grateful we aren’t on track for 105 , or more, losses.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 27, 2008 9:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that’s basically my answer. When you don’t have a good team, chances are your team won’t be very good at home. The Giants played well at home back when they were a winning team. Coincidence?

As for the rest, it all kind of wraps around the same answer. Is Brian Sabean stupid enough to… speed and defense…? Well, we don’t really have speed or defense, so he’s either smarter than that or he’s too stupid for it, but if I modify the question: Is Brian Sabean stupid enough to… bad team…? Well then, we do have a bad team. So, yes.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 27, 2008 10:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I predicted 100 losses and if you take away our 7-0 run vs. the nats this team would be on a 60-102 pace. But lucky for us the Nats do suck, just like lucky for the Brewers we really suck. Right now we’re on pace for 67-95. They could get worse!

by mark30perq3 on Jul 27, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have no doubt it could get worse real fast. And I will not tempt Murphy (of Murphy’s Law) by naming those ways.

As for the Nat’s of coarse the Giants sweep them. What possible use would a #1 or #2 over all pick be to a franchise with a parent club in this shape?

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 28, 2008 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m arguing more with the concept here than anything. Other teams come in here and their hitters CAN hit homeruns here and can drive balls repeatedly up triples alley. The whole philosophy that you can only win in this ballpark if you have great pitching, speed and defense is faulty. It’s a very simplistic idea here that Sabean doesn’t seem to grasp. It doesn’t matter if the good players are pitchers or hitters. Get good players!! He wants us to get excited about prospects like Sandoval, Villalona, Posey, etc, but wait a second. How will they be able to hit in this ballpark?? The whole thing is a crock, and Sabean likes to play us for fools.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Jul 27, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Ah, I’ve always held that belief. This last offseason I had a number of fairly heated rants against people who said anything resembling “team built for AT&T.” Do they want to know what a team built for AT&T loks like? It looks like a good team, not some weird mix of triples hitters and rangy catchers.

There are plenty of examples of good teams in the league to use for reference. None of them are built to play at their park. They’re all simply built to play.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 27, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with HowTheyScored.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jul 27, 2008 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with the Drugslinger's premise that offense works in our park.

I agree with what you’re saying about offense, but would not necessarily join the notion that Sabean doesn’t understand or agree with it. For a series of reasons that we all understand (well, and some reasons we will probably never understand), we have the set of horses we have, and they ain’t exactly Triple Crown threats, to cross-contaminate a metaphor.

But to your point about offense, I agree. It’s been galling to hear all this nonsense this year denigrating this ballpark, that somehow it is hard to generate offense here. NONSENSE. One team wins in our ballpark every single day; there have been no ties. We have produced MVPs in this ballpark, as well as home run records. Our bases are 90 feet apart, just like everywhere else. Some of our outfield walls are as close as other parks, some closer, some farther; our oddities are not outside the range of oddities (e.g., a damn hill and a flagpole IN fair territory in centerfield, you Houston Asshats). So this park offers all the opportunities that are built into baseball, as many gaps between players as any other park, still limiting the other teams to nine players in the field at a time, that sort of thing.

I just don’t think Sabean is unaware of this.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jul 27, 2008 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pishtosh!

I suppose you also don’t subscribe to the “Offensive capability dictates position” theory…

Arizona thinks we're Washington which thinks we're Arizona.

by victor frankenstein on Jul 27, 2008 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair, it’s more like “lack of offensive capability dictates position.” If you can plain straight out hit, they’ll let you play wherever your defense will allow you to play. If you can’t hit that well, they’re not going to play you at a position where it’s easy to acquire a guy who can, so you’ll have to play a position with a scarcity of hitters if you want to succeed. It’s one weird baseball thing that actually does make sense.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 27, 2008 12:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anagram of "Brian Sabean"

Anagram of "Giants pitcher Matt Cain" = TRAGIC MAN, ISN'T PATHETIC

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jul 27, 2008 10:12 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Stuttering John from Hollywood?

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Jul 27, 2008 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stuttering Josh from Tomorrowland

by Moggeee on Jul 27, 2008 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wish that the stuff that came before the comma came after the comma, and that the stuff that came after the comma came before the comma.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 27, 2008 5:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Cheeky

Farewell, Ray. We'll miss your smile and your sugar. Welcome, Steve Hammond "Eggs". Throw strikes.
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jul 27, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was going to say that this thread has way too much discussion of the former and not enough of the latter.

Adoptive father of howtheyscored. The beatings will begin momentarily.

by Goofus on Jul 29, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's no Home Field Advantage

There’s only last-ups advantage intersecting with superstition.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Jul 27, 2008 9:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Or a rose by any other name is still a rose. eh? I like the cut of your jib there.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 28, 2008 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Meh. No. But I’d need a large sample size of neutral-site baseball games to prove it.

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Jul 28, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Last ups advantage isn’t, however, totally inconsequential. And, as someone who’s job requires some little bit of traveling, I do think there is a general fatigue-based disadvantage to the road team, especially when on trips that take you out of and through several time zones, and especially at this point in the year when most players are generally getting flat-assed tired out anyway.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jul 28, 2008 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Familiarity with the field

Is a defensive advantage for the home team. I do not think it is very significant, however.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jul 28, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on your grounds keeping crew. For example there are great stories how the crew at the ‘Stick would make the base paths extra muddy and slick when Willis and Dodgers came to town. How to play off the walls in the O.F. I would not call it pivotital but its there.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 28, 2008 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OF defense road vs. home amounts to probably just a couple runs per season. Not even a win, I’d reckon.

What may make it look like a bigger thing than it is could be a manager’s tendency to play a bad-defending better-hitting OF out of the mistaken notion that he needs more offense to win on the road.

The IF thing is probably right. In addition to wetting the dirt you can also slop the basepaths so balls roll foul or stay fair, or patterning the grass in a certain way or selecting its length to encourage or discourage infield hits or balls getting through to the outfield.

None of that is as big in MLB as in Japan. There are 9 Japanese teams that play on artificial turf infields, and the other 3… ALL DIRT INFIELDS!

Koshien Field:

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Jul 29, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

great pic!

always dig photos of ball yards that get played in year after yaer but I don ‘t know about.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 29, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't understand any arguments based around ballparks

Maybe I can see signing left handed hitters if your right field wall is ridiculously shallow, or better defensive fielders if your OF is huge, but in terms of the balance between pitching/defense/offense, it doesn’t make sense to me. A team with a better offense is a team with a better offense, whether here or elsewhere. A team’s balance shouldn’t be determined by its field—that doesn’t even begin to make sense..

I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..

by lmaozedong on Jul 28, 2008 9:49 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think in most cases you are correct. But three are always outliers. Coors Field recently. The Astrodome. How the heck Glenn Davis had 3 30+ hr seasons playing half his game there is a freaken miracle. And theese are exceptions the prove the rule your stateing IHMO.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 28, 2008 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except for that even with Coors Field, they spent years and years losing miserably there by trying to build different kinds of teams that could “win at Coors.” When they won last season is was because (outside of luck) they got great performances from the offense, the pitching and defense. Those performances would have translated to success outside of Coors as well (and home/road offensive splits start to create a dubious argument that still doesn’t resolve the problem that Coors splits will benefit the opponents just as much… unless the humidifier is being selective again). I’m willing to say that in my honest and strong opinion, there are no true outliers for that argument.

I am in complete agreement with lmaozedong.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 28, 2008 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you want to talk Coors last years team was much “quicker” then the old Blake Street bombers crew. ( their last successful team.) So in a way the did tailor their team toward their home environment. As for the pitching it allowed far more ground balls and less fly balls last year ( just useing hit tragectory for a quick dirty break down) then first time the Rockies made the post season. Which was also part of their announced plan when the Blake Street Bombers were dismantled. I just took them a couple roster turn overs to get a season with results they were aiming for but it was what they were aiming for.

Coors is an out lier in almost every collection of ball park data I’v seen. Even so it was not like the team the constructed in some radical new philosphy.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 29, 2008 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t really see how these are exceptions. If a team has better offense than another team, it will stay better no matter where they play.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Jul 29, 2008 2:36 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't get the Astrodome either

The Cruz/Puhl/Howe/Cedeno clubs that were pretty successful in the late 70s/early 80s were good defense, good offense, great pitching clubs that would have been successful anywhere. And probably, more to the point, the Bagwell/Biggio teams finished off the Astrodome with three consecutive 2nd place finishes followed by three consecutive division winners (with a cumulative winning percentage of .563), and after a one year adjustment to Enron where their pitching fell apart, proceeded to finish 1st and then 2nd five consecutive years (including one World Series appearance and one NL championship appearance) with a winningpercentage of .542.

If the Astrodome demanded a team built around its particular challenges, then why did these teams (built much the same and including the same core group) perform just as well with Enron as a home field as they did in the Dome.

I’m with the others. Good teams are good teams anywhere. Building teams to a stadium is an attempt to camoflage weaknesses that will be exposed somewhere.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jul 29, 2008 6:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

My purpose was to name two more extreme ( non band box) parks. They might induce a teams to focus on an aspect ( or two) of game more then most other teams but even these extreme parks were not enough have radical new baseball teams in them. The home team could not ignore those aspects but even in the outlier parks they were not enough to "force" and radical changes.

As for those Virdon & Lanier managed clubs they were very good. I remember them being rather K & Fly out orientated but need to check data to be sure. ( That should be out there some were). If they were fly ball orientate they might have more issues now days but they were still good teams.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 29, 2008 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Eh..

If I am building the Yankees, I’ll take more left handed hitters than right handed hitters. Likewise, Whitey Herzog’s Cardinals probably wouldn’t have done nearly as well at Fenway. In the main though, I think the idea that good teams will be good just about anywhere is spot on.

The other fallacy as well is that AT&T is not really a pitcher’s park. The park factors for the last five years have 100, 100, 100, 101, 101. I wish it was more of a pitcher’s park, and it’s probably true that righties can prosper with the deep power alley in RCF and the winds that blow in from the bay. But there’s damn well zero foul territory and right field is no further away than most parks.

by Bitter Fan on Jul 29, 2008 8:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The whole AT&T is a pitcher park chaps my hide as well.

I think the whole “Mays field is a pitchers park ” thing is largely a result of east coast media basis. Look at most of the new yards in Cincy, Philly, South side of Chicago. All more lively then the yards they replace. Same could be probably argued for in Huston & Mil as well. Off hand the only ball yard east of the Rocky Mountains I can think of that if might be argued might be less of an offensive place then the one it replaced is in Atl. It would be real easy for fans that live in those city and rely on ESPN would perceive "band boxes" to be the norm as a result.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 29, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It really was a pitcher’s park for the first three years, though. Since then something has changed, but first impressions linger for a long time.

At this point it’s a good park for right-handed hitters and a rough one for lefties. The effect is pretty strong and should definitely be kept in mind when making personnel decisions.

by Evan on Jul 29, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think hiters got a ‘book” on it. Just like it took a while to see the right fielders position themselves more in the gap.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 30, 2008 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A good team is a good team, a bad team is a bad team

There may be subtle differences, but at the end of the day – that is what you are going to get.

I can see where a team “built for” HRs in a bandbox type park may just end up with a lot of warning track outs in a larger park, but I do not see that translating into any significant effect on a season.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jul 29, 2008 9:28 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

it only take winning one game less then a competitor for that difference to be enough though.
To steal from Lombardi -it all about execution.

Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!

by daveinexile on Jul 29, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It has been analyzed

How many “Just enough” HR’s that would not have gone for HR’s in another park, etc. I forget the results… lol.

I’m not sure if it has ever been approached in this light, however. Might be interesting.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jul 29, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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