?
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 25, 2008 12:27 PM PDT
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Why is this division so bad? I'm going to put a vote down for "bad players", and then open it up to the floor.
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Well, in the case of the Dodgers
It’s partly front office sabotage, thanks to Agent Ned.
And I think that in the case of the other teams, problems on the management side are a large part of it. The Padres, for instance, seem to have problems down on the farm. The Rockies are a bit of a mystery to me, but lack of pitcher development has to be a part of it. The Dodgers and the Diamondbacks both seem to have all the right tools to make it work, so I have to blame the FO. I definitely see at least one of those two teams doing a lot better in this second half, though.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I don’t think you can blame the Diamondback’s front office for this. Pretty much all the veterans have either played to expectations or have injuries, and the rest are young studs that are going through typical youth slumps, but will eventually pay off later.
The Dodgers on the other hand… It’s saying something about Torre that this team is doing so well.
Because the Yankees and Red Sox aren’t in the division!
by cheno on Jul 25, 2008 12:33 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Because if you get there
anything can happen!!!!w00t
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I blame Benitez.
Either him or Pierzynski. I’m sure one of them must be responsible.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
This
Will never get old.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't worry
Colorado is going to win 50 of their last 59 games to finish with a very respectable 95 wins.
Only 872 games until the end of Zito's contract
funny, but
If the continue at their current pace and pull off another 22/23 streak to finish the season, they are right on track to go to the WS again.
Sneaky fucking hurdle.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Personally, I think Hurdle is a horrible manager
And after seeing what he did against the Giants, I’m not too keen on Acta either.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
He’s got one of the best names in track and field as well.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Serious Answer
I think it is a combination of low payrolls and young teams.
Over the last several years, I cannot recall a significant FA acquisition in the NL West, meanwhile teams like Chicago, New York, Philliy, Boston, etc from other divisions have made numerous significant moves for top tier talent.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 12:43 PM PDT reply actions
Oops
This has resulted in teams in the west being comprised primarily of young unproven and inconsistent players and aging veteran stopgaps.
As a result, the division sucks.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
i don't disagree with your premise
but i take exception with your use of “comprise.”
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
I did not say that Young = inconsistent
I said the players were young AND inconsistent.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Philly?
The biggest FA signing I can remember them making recently is Feliz.
And you’d have to count Zito, Rowand, A. Jones, Schmidt, Maddux, R. Johnson as signficiant FA acquisitions, even if some of them haven’t exactly panned out as hoped…
The All-Father is now a Giant!
by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2008 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know if Maddux and Johnson really count as "significant" or "veteran stopgaps"
and Schmidt was within the division.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Maybe Philly was a bad choice.
Zito, big but terrible. Jones Same, Schmidt both in the division as well as terrible.
Maddux and Johnson are more in the veteran stopgap territory.
I’m talking more along the lines of the Soriano-Fukudome-Dice_K-Carlos Lee type.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Nitpicking on terminology, maybe, but...
...when I read “veteran stopgap” I think of an Aurilia type. If you’re paying $10M (Maddux) or $13M (Johnson) per year, that’s not a stopgap, it’s someone you’re expecting to be a significant piece of a contending team.
Schmidt was within the division, yes, but I don’t see why that doesn’t count. He costs just as much and reflects the same approach to roster building regardless of where they sign him from.
The teams that are winning right now are a combination of big-market, free-spending clubs (Cubs, Yankees, Sox) and smaller market teams tendured years of craptitude while building from within (Brewers, Rays). The NL west has some of both, with the Dodgers going the first way and the Rockies the second. So I don’t think it’s as simple as who’s shelling out the big FA money.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
alright, your gonna make me do it....
Average Payroll By Division, 2008:
NL West – 81m
NL Central – 85m
NL East – 83m
AL West – 89m
AL Central – 91m
AL East – 110m
Assuming I didn’t fuck any of those up. Obviously, outliers like the Marlins and Yankees screw things up, but regardless, the NL West is the lowest. In fact, if it wasn’t for the horribly underperforming dodgers, the NL West would be WAY low.
If the dodgers were spending ~ 80m like their performance suggests, (not 120m) they west would fall to an average salary of 73m, which is significantly lower than all other divisions in baseball. If I do some funky semi-statistical corrections for the most horrendous outliers (Yankees and Marlins) it looks more like:
NL East: 95.2, AL east: 90.4
This only bolsters the case for the NL west being substantially lower than all other divisions in baseball.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Circular logic
You’re arguing that the NLW is bad due to low payrolls, then “correcting” the Dodgers’ payroll to match their bad performance. That doesn’t make sense.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
I'm not doing anything of the sort
without adjusting any payrolls the NLW has the lowest.
I was merely pointing out that the dodgers are spending significantly more than the rest of the division, and as a result are inflating the West’s average payroll.
If you take them out of it, the disparity is huge. The dodgers are an example of a team spending a lot of money badly.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 28, 2008 12:15 PM PDT up reply actions
So then you have to take out the worst offender from the other divisions if you want to make an apples-to-apples comparison. So say goodbye to the Mariners, Orioles, and Astros payrolls and let’s see how it stacks up.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
I think that the bigger distinction is that, on the whole, free agency has not been a big source of new talent for the NL West. Zito has been a bust and it’s hard to consider Rowand a significant (ie, All-Star) talent. Meanwhile, players like Carlos Beltran, Carlos Delgado (to the Marlins before he wound up in NY), Pedro, Dice-K, Soriano, Pudge Rodriguez, and Gary Sheffield are signing with teams in the Eastern and Central divisions, improving the division-wide talent-level.
It’s not that the teams in the NL West have not spent at all in free agency. It’s just that they’ve spent poorly and have failed to acquire All-Star level players.
I think the two go hand in hand.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions
To Clarify
I think a general lack of FA signings combined with those that have happened being bad (Zito, Schmidt, Jones, Pierre, the list goes on) results in an overall talent reduction in the NL west.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
The Giants need to pony up and sign Crede AND Tex this offseason I guess
That would still put us under the dodgers ;)
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe it's more to do with trades
My opinion is that, while the division’s FA failures are somewhat responsible, it’s been the teams’ inactivity in trading for new talent that is more responsible. Look at the best teams in baseball. Outside of the Angels and Rays, all have made major acquisitions in the recent past via the trade: D-Backs – Haren, Johnson; Cubs – Lee, Ramirez, now Harden; White Sox – Quentin, Swisher; Yankees – A-Rod; Red Sox – Beckett, Schilling, Lowell; Mets – Delgado; Phillies – Blanton. Okay, so Blanton is a stretch as a major acquisition and I’m not counting Sabathia because it wasn’t even a month ago. But still, all of those teams have been successful in trading for veteran talent. And yes, it’s a stretch to consider the D-Backs one of the best teams, but they are the most talented team in the division.
Rest of the NL West, zero teams that have a track record of succesfully acquiring talent via trade, especially the Dodgers. I think that the D-Backs and Brewers have the right idea. The farm system is there to help the big club. Sometimes, the best way it can help is to contribute players to a trade. These kids are all “prospects” and not a single one is a sure bet (injuries). The Dodgers have been relying on those prospects for a few years now and it’s getting them nowhere. Bet they wish they’d traded for Tex when they had the chance.
what im trying to say is that i think free agency has less to do with the failure to acquire talent than does the general apathy towards trading for veteran talent.
I would say a general failure to trade for blockbuster talent.
There have been trades, but few on par with Pedro Martinez, Tim Hudson, Teixeria, CC, Miguel Cabrera, Beckett, Santana, etc.
What you get instead is a re-circulation of talent in the other divisions with the occasional migration of talent OUT of the West (of which Holliday is likely to become the next victim).
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Agent Ned is doing his best
But Arizona is constantly foiling his plans
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jul 25, 2008 12:47 PM PDT reply actions
just 1 bad year
just to confuse us, the division actually did well in 07. Best in baseball, at 32 games above .500, and all teams above .500 except our guys. So I guess it’s….sine wave phenomenon; or teams blew their money, prospects, and juice in the 07 pennant drive
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
I think Arizona is the only one that really calls for an explanation. Micah Owings suddenly being horrible and Byrnes getting injured/awful is only part of it.
Everybody knew SD wasn’t going to have a very good year, and the Rockies were going to hit they’re head on the plexiglass principle.
The Dodgers, there is no mystery there. They’ve been undone by injuries and mismanagement.
you can't block the Bocock
Actually, Arizona is the easiest to explain
By their Pythagorean record, they were a sub-.500 team last season.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Using last years pythag is not a good way to analyze this years team.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
However it is a good way to analyze last years team
And to suggest that their record last year was largely due to luck.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, everyone knows that. It still should not be used as more than a starting point for analyzing this years team though.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Other than by suggesting that last years W/L is probably not a great bar to hold this year's team to.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Last year they were about a 78 win team, pythag-wise. Add Dan Haren, subtract Livan Hernandez, plus a bunch of young players with exceptional ceilings, and you would expect them to be much better than last year. While I wouldn’t expect them to improve upon a 90 win season, I expected them to hit 90 wins again but this time deserve it. I think they certainly qualify as a surprise underperformer.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Upside
Otherwise known and uncertainty. I think part of the reason the Diamonbacks are not living up to that expectation is that several of their high-upside players are not performing up to expectations.
That happens with young unproven players. (Chris Young, Justin Upton).
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course, but going into this season they could have expected improvements at SP, CF, RF, SS, 1B, and C. A lot has gone unexpectedly, I would say.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Corn banged Dwarf
I saw it on the menu in a New Guinea Restaurant
Everyone is off the roids!
!!!
Bill Mueller? I expect at least A-Rod type numbers from my son, Conor Gillaspie
This may have value
The NL west hashad a significant quotient (for the last several years) of aging veteran players (Bonds, Durham, Tony Clark, Brian Giles, etc) Many of these players may have been using PED within the last several years, and as a result performing beyond their natural ability.
Once the PED use stops, performance drops – but it takes a while for contracts to catch up. Right now, the west may be saddled with a disproportionate numer of ex-PED users experiencing a sharp decline.
Hard to say, however.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
This is my theory – if you were a mediocre player using PEDs, you don’t want to admit it because you were still just a mediocre player, and that’s a little embarrassing (i.e., “That’s the best he could do even juiced?” – I’m looking at you, Armando Rios, Marvin Benard and FP). If you were a great player using PEDs, you don’t want to admit it because it could jeopardize your shot at getting into the HoF.
Plus, there’s all that silly legal stuff associated with it. Although even if blanket amnesty were to be given, the above two factors still come into play.
Right now, I’m assuming most guys used ‘em.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
The Evil that is SoCal
is weighing down the division, particularl LA but also SD and Arizona is close enough to add to that Axis of Evil down there.
The Rox just sucks, its in their definition, 2007 not withstanding, there was probably a glitch in the time-space continuum that explained how that happened.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2008 5:17 PM PDT reply actions
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