Actual Attempt at Serious Conver...*bellllch*
I like the chances that the Giants will have above-average players in left field (Fred Lewis) and center (Aaron Rowand) for the next couple of seasons. If Lewis doesn’t pickle your ginger, then maybe you have an affinity for John Bowker or Nate Schierholtz. At the very least, based on the players currently in the Giants’ control, I sincerely doubt there will be two gaping holes in left and center in 2010 or 2011.
The new meme is that the Giants need a three-year or five-year plan. The organization already has a great framework for a contending rotation; the top three are good now, and they have room to improve. Bullpens aren’t something you can plan to perfection, but the Giants have a good foundation of hard throwers with which to work. So the three- or five-year plan boils down to this: find an infield, and find a corner outfielder with power. A team shouldn’t need five years to turn those rocks over.
Trading Tim Lincecum or Matt Cain would switch the plan to something like this: find an infield, and find a front-of-the-rotation starter. Or, find most of an infield, a corner outfielder with power, and a front-of-the-rotation starter. Trading Lincecum or Cain for, say, two position player prospects/raffle tickets would just be a big organizational comb over. Forget trading Peter to start Paul. The three-year plan – nuts to anything longer – should rely on:
1. Picking up the browner grass on the other side of the fence. The Giants need to look for players who are undervalued by their current organization (Carlos Quentin, when he was with Arizona), prospects who aren’t doing a whole bunch (JJ Hardy two years ago, maybe Reid Brignac now), and former top prospects who are kicking around (not just the freebies like Brandon Phillips or Carlos Pena, either. Xavier Nady wasn’t exactly free a couple of years ago, but he didn’t have a Cain-sized price tag, either.) Jose Castillo is a half-assed implementation of this strategy, but the acquisition was made in the right spirit.
2. Keeping the young rotation healthy and together. Lincecum, Cain, and Sanchez are a phalanx of strikeouty doom right now. Lincecum by himself is Steve Carlton, circa ’72. The three top starters are cheap and under the Giants control for the next few years. That’s a head start that few rebuilding franchises will ever have.
3. Smart free-agent signings. Spend big for the fluke free agent hitters – the 20-somethings who somehow make it to the market, like Vladmir Guerrero, Alex Rodriguez (1.0), or Carlos Beltran if they come up, which they probably won’t. Ignore the middling outfielders. Spend small for the stopgaps who are trying to resurrect their careers.
4. Luck. That sounds glib, but every contender has benefited from luck. The Cubs have a catcher in the middle of their lineup who hit .272 with six homers in AAA two years ago. Two-fifths of the Mets’ rotation was given to them by bad teams who needed pitching in the worst way. The Giants need Pablo Sandoval to become a 30-homer first baseman, for Buster Posey to be an All-Star in two years, or for something huge that we can’t count on right now.
5. Patience. Make this guy write a book, and then read it.
That’s my manifesto. It’s all obvious, so I don’t want to pretend like I’ve just discovered the double helix, but there’s been a lot of vague "well, if this guy develops, and that guy develops, and…" in my posts over the past couple of years. Now that I’ve vomited this out onto my keyboard, I feel better.
Comment starter: Of what does your one-, three-, five-, or twenty-year plan consist?
0 recs |
138 comments
Comments
I basically agree with you
Weird.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
My plan
Keep the rotation intact, trade Wilson for a prospect or three. Groom one of our many plus arms to be the Closer of the Future. Pray that Pablo, Posey, Gillaspie, Schierholtz, Frandsen, and the like all turn out to be big leaguers, and that one or two reaches all-star territory. Win it all in 2011.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 22, 2008 1:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But when Schierholtz finally gets here after Winn’s contract is up, since Sabes won’t trade him, he’ll be 26 or 27, which most of you consider too old to be a prospect. He’ll be AAAA. Trade Winn, 33, now so Schierholtz can play while he’s under 25. He might also be losing motivation, seeing how well he’s played, yet he hasn’t been given the opportunity that Lewis or Bowker has.
by giants9107 on Jul 22, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry
I left out the part of my plan where we trade everyone over 30. So in my world, Aurilia, Winn, Molina, Roberts, Vizquel, and Walker are already gone.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 22, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK,
Then your plan is reasonable. If Winn isn’t gone at LEAST by the start of next year, Sabes should be gone.
by giants9107 on Jul 22, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winn AND everyone else
Sorry, don’t wanna sound like I only want Schierholtz, I want the others too, but they’re a little further off.
by giants9107 on Jul 22, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
Name the “young plus arm” who will be the closer of the future.
Hinshaw… maybe. Anyone else?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Could be Hinshaw
Or Romo or Valdez (should he get healthy) or even Sosa, possibly.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 22, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hinshaw. No way Romo would be a closer. Don’t think he has the stuff for that. Valdez could if he could stay healthy. But he might not even pitch until midway next year. Sosa down the line possibly if he doesn’t improve his secondary pitches.
Sadler is a possibility as well.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, I’ve heard the Romo lack-of-stuff complaint for a while, so I was surprised to see that he threw 89-92 with movement. I don’t think he’ll ever be an elite closer, but he could be Bob Wickman or Tim Worrell at a low, low price. I’d wait until he stops striking people out at any professional level before labeling him as a sixth-inning guy.
by Grant on Jul 22, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I see a lot of Maybe Maybe Maybe
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not necessarily advocating trading Wilson (though i wouldn’t be opposed to the idea either). But Wilson isn’t a sure-thing yet, either. Maybe Wilson continues to improve his control (which is what he needs to do to believe an elite closer). Maybe Wilson’s poor performances in non-save situations don’t start carrying over into save situations.
I really like Wilson. But it’s not like he’s much more established than Hinshaw, Romo, Sadler, etc.
Only 875 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 22, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valdez is the best chance, IMO
But, setting the health issues aside, he may have much more value as a starter in a few years.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valdez can’t start. He’s been injured far too many times for that to even be an option now IMO.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s like Isringhausen injury prone.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is also why he may not be a great bet for the bullpen of the future, either.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
True. I don’t even really consider him or Lowry as part of our future due to their injuries. If they can come back that’s great. If not it won’t matter since they aren’t really a factor at this point in time anyway.
But if Valdez got healthy, the closer role would be an option. If not for a blister, Kerry Wood has been just fine in that role for the Cubs this year.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Wilson can bring back, say, a good young shortstop, you have to consider the trade. Closers just happen. Last year at this time, Wilson was a disappointment who was struggling in AAA.
Hitters are the roof. Starting pitchers are the utilities. Closers are the rose bushes in front.
by Grant on Jul 22, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Would that make Neifi Perez the termites?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying you cannot trade Wilson
I am saying that if you do, you had better get something good in return, not just some “maybe” prospect.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you’re saying that the giants have electricity, running water, and are paying a lot of money to wait for the cable guy (zito) on an empty lot? ...Niiiiice
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jul 22, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Closers are the rose bushes in front
And I’m sick of looking at my neighbors fucking weeds.
He’s got a nice house and all, but fuck dude – details matter.
Get it?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Sabean is the tool shed.
No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.
by Kitspool on Jul 22, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep Wilson
the most important thing to be a good closer (beyond being able to get people out) is the attitude. He definitely has that. We have a closer, let’s keep him and not create another hole.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 22, 2008 6:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Closer attitude"
is a crock of bull.
by Viliphied on Jul 22, 2008 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and so is "closer stuff"
you don’t have to throw 98+ mph to be an effective closer.
by Viliphied on Jul 22, 2008 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tell that to Joe Borowski, Todd Jones. Matt Herges, etc. You may not need to throw 98 MPH but you had better be able to throw strikes and have at least 1 plus pitch.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 23, 2008 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is an eternal debate that won't get settled here
And I’m still trying to figure out a way to settle it.
Some people think being a closer takes something extra, some thing it is just being a good reliever.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 23, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw no mention of either “Bonds” or “veteran savvy”.
I therefore dismissed you as a conjurer and, after placing my hat-o’-tinfoil upon my head, reread your post. The only alteration I would make would be to remove much of the emphasis on obtaining a powerful corner outfield in exchange for emphasis on securing solid defense at shortstop and 2nd base with pesky OBP and batting styles.
by younghutch on Jul 22, 2008 1:13 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If we sign anyone who is described as “pesky”, I’m going to lose it.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pesky hitters run up pitch counts, something the current incarnation of the team doesn’t do well at all. Few players are going to hit for real power at Mays Field and power hitting middle infielders are extremely rare. However, middle infielders who strike out a lot and make 2 pitch outs are a dime a dozen.
Avoid the latter.
by younghutch on Jul 22, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pesky is one of those backhanded compliments. If there were good things to say about a person, they would say them, instead of pesky.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who is “they”?
But ok, if you insist -
Bothersome, scrappy, persistent, smart, battling…
Patron saint of pesky hitters.
by younghutch on Jul 23, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
They, very obviously, are the people who use pesky, scrappy, bothersome, persistent, battling, etc. as compliments.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 23, 2008 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One tiny caveat to #3: make draft-pick compensation play a heavy role in which free agents we sign.
For example: many of us agree that Adam Dunn isn’t a perfect fit for the Giants, but there is an outside chance that the Reds will not offer him arbitration at the end of this year. If all he costs us is money, then I think we have to strongly consider signing him.
by rotorueter on Jul 22, 2008 1:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In addition...
go ahead and sign a veteran or two for the bullpen coming off a decent, but not spectacular year. If he has a solid year for us, he’ll be a type B free agent and get us an additional pick. Do this every year.
If we get solid relievers from our farm system, trade them as they hit their arbitration years and their value is at its peak (Taschner, Wilson, Walker, etc.)
Hector Sanchez: really getting tired of playing baseball in foreign countries...
by tedfordfan on Jul 22, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather avoid the Adam Dunn/Pat Burrell types. When you factor in their defense, probable aging curves, and contract length, they will probably end up as bad signings.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed, unless he comes with a serious discount, which is unlikely.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A discount SS would be someone like Christian Guzman. But I say let the Nationals keep him. And let Burriss play SS.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I imagine Mark Ellis could play a half-way decent SS.
Beane seems to have loaded his farm system with second-basemen, and Ellis expressed an interest in signing a below-market contract to stay in Oakland. I know signing with the Giants isn’t the same as resigning with the A’s, but there might be a geographic incentive here. He won’t be cheap, but he’d probably earn his salary.
We might just be better off with Burriss, though.
by rotorueter on Jul 22, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ellis doesn’t have a strong enough arm for SS
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 22, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
As compared to who?
Hard to believe his arm is weaker than Omar’s.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything I’ve ever read and seen about Ellis indicates that he’s limited to being a ridiculously awesome defensive second baseman because his arm isn’t strong enough to play short or third.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 22, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, he did play third in college. Eckstein was the second baseman and Brad Wilkerson was the first baseman with some freshman starting at SS. Not a bad college infield.
Speed, defense... and an almost fanatical devotion to getting picked off.
by SF Pete on Jul 22, 2008 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guzman just signed a 2-year extension
so he’s out.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 22, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good general rule, but just for fun, check out this article on Dunn’s apparent improving defense: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7829
Unlike Burrell, he’s also under 30, and interest in acquiring him mid-season has been low, so it’s still possible that he’s being undervalued despite his reliance on “old-player skills”.
I do hear you, though. The bigger point I was trying to make is that we should try extra-hard to exploit the compensation system, which always has a few strange choices each year.
by rotorueter on Jul 22, 2008 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m betting Dunn won’t be undervalued come the Winter. The FA market isn’t what it used to be. Guys with 40 HR power aren’t growing on trees. Plus he is under 30. Plenty of teams will be after him. Not that I think Dunn would come here anyway, he wants to be near Texas.
I’d rather get Burrell, he should be a cheaper buy, and you might be able to get him on a 3 year deal. Which will expire around the time we should hopefully have younger kids coming up from the minors.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems unlikely that the Phillies will refuse to offer Burrell arbitration, though. I don’t want to give up picks for him.
by rotorueter on Jul 22, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect he'll still be undervalued
b/c of his low batting average, but he won’t be a steal.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jul 22, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PLEASE no Burrell
He sounds like all the other signings we’ve ever done.
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 22, 2008 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference
The differences between Pat Burrell and the other free agents the Giants have signed are twofold:
First, they haven’t signed any outside free agents with nearly as much power as Pat.
Second, they haven’t signing any outside free agents who can draw walks as Pat can.
Pat is also from the Bay Area and might be amenable to returning.
All that said, I wouldn’t go after him unless he could be had more cheaply than he will be able to be had. The Giants need players under 30, not over.
by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s interesting about Dunn’s defense. He seems to fluctuate between horrible and decent.
I understand, and agree with, your overall point though. While there is no chance we could lose our first round pick due to FA signings, we could be losing our 2nd round pick (3rd also? I’m not sure of the new rules on this) which is still valuable.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
neither he nor anybody else will cost us our first rounder
so I’m no sure how significant a consideration that is yet.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 23, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First things first
The first thing the Giants need to do is sign Buster Posey and at least 2 of the other top 3 picks. I’d prefer Gillaspie and Crawford over Kieschnick because they play positions (3b and SS) of more pressing need. If they can sign all of them, even better. Adding that type of depth to the system would help tremendously.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 22, 2008 1:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Good news on that front
In case you missed it, since it was buried at the bottom of a long thread:
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2008/7/21/575799/random-off-day-items#7543150
Also, from Kevin Goldstein’s chat today at BP:
PSzucs (Toronto): Of any of the top picks, are there any who seem like the most likely scenario is that they’re not going to sign, or is it going to be like last year?Kevin Goldstein: They’re all going to sign, but it’s probably not going to be until right at the deadline. Basically if you look at last year, who got the big money? The guys who waited it out. So what are the top guys going to do? Wait it out.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The first thing is pray for a shortstop for next year. I hope Burris can be the answer, because if he is not then we are in trouble. The organization(if all the picks sign) has depth at 1st base, 2nd base, catcher, every outfield position, and plenty of pitching. In terms of the left side of the diamond though, in the upper minors, we have second basemen parading to cover short and third. Bocock, Burris, Rohlinger and maybe culberson in a few years are the only four that have a chance, and Bocock is a defensive sub and probably nothing more. So, at least through my glasses, it seems that if there was one individual that the future depended on it would be burris…. baring of course our top pick next year is a shortstop or third baseman.
by OmahaGiants on Jul 22, 2008 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Also throwing this out there. I would love to see Glaus at third for the giants. He has a player option for next year at approximately 10mil. However, he is 32, and this may be his last big pay day. Adding him at third would go a long way in my opinion.
by OmahaGiants on Jul 22, 2008 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I highly doubt the Cards will let Glaus go.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Plan
Sign the draft picks, but don’t overpay. If Posey really is holding out for a record bonus tell him to fuck off. Same with the others if they’re asking for too much. Granted we knew most of these would take until the deadline before they’d be signed.
Avoid going after the big name FA’s this off-season like Furcal, Teixeira (who is 0-11 at AT&T Park), and Dunn. I would be ok with Burrell, he should come cheaper then the other 3, he walks and would give us a RH power bat. And he can play 1B or LF.
Sign Rocco Baldelli to a minor league contract. He likely will just get hurt again or fade into oblivion, but the guy has major tools and the last 2 years when he was healthy enough to get onto the field he showed an improved walk rate and more power than he did earlier in his career. Virtually no risk to signing him, and possible big reward + great PR if he is able to make it back.
Hopefully Randy Winn will have already been traded within the next week, but that seems unlikely. So hopefully he can be dealt before next season. Give Schierholtz his tryout. I don’t think he’s really anything more than like a Matt Murton with way less walks. Also trade Bengie Molina. I like both players but they are NOT part of the team’s future and to get their salary off the books would be nice, although we’ll probably be stuck with both for another year. If Molina can be traded, sign a temporary replacement like a David Ross to a 1 yr or 2 yr deal, and hopefully Pablito can continue his ascent to taking over the catching duties by mid-season of next year.
Next year should all be about seeing what we have with guys like Burriss, Denker, Frandsen, Lewis, Bowker, Schierholtz etc. Since a lot of those guys were blocked this year by veterans who we needed to let play to see if anybody would want them via trade. It worked in Durham’s case. Vizquel will obviously be gone next year. Aurilia I could see being brought back on the cheap as a platoon/bench guy and veteran presence. Winn and Molina will both only have 1 year left next year. Roberts too. So after next year we’ll be all youth other than Rowand and he’ll still be in his early 30s.
Keep Castillo if he can be kept cheaply as another temporary fill-in for a year or two.
And if guys fall off like Lewis, Schierholtz, Bowker etc and (assuming we didn’t sign Burrell) we can put up big money for 5 years of Matt Holliday as he hits the FA market at 30 after next season.
As for our pitchers, I would definitely listen to offers for any of them. If they can get back a lot of ML ready talent or young ML players back they would have to think about it pretty hard. Preferably though we’d like to keep the pitchers obviously.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
edit
I’m not advocating I want Matt Holliday, just that the option would be there. It sounds like a Giants type of desperation move…:(
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not quite seeing how Holliday is a desperation move. He’s a legitimate middle of the order, corner outfield bat. Aaron Rowand (or Andruw Jones, if we’d signed him instead) was a desperation signing because he’s definitely not a guy who belongs in the middle of the order.
If you only look at Holliday’s road splits (to account for any Coors Field bump in productinos), and bear in mind that three of the other four parks in the division are pitcher’s parks, he stacks up very well as a middle of the order guy. His OBP on the road is the same as Manny Ramirez’s and his SLG is only about fifty points lower. His HR rate does suffer quite dramatically, which is disappointing, but his strikeout to walk ratio is actually much better, which suggests that at Coors he may just be swinging for the fences and the higher HR rate might be a reflection of luck in addition to the ridiculous carry up there. I’m not saying he’s Manny or will be Manny through his 30s. In terms of HRs, he projects to be only a modest improvement over even Bowker, but his overall offensive production would dwarf anything the Giants are currently getting.
Would it be better to sign Burrell? Probably, as the guy’s road splits (used for the same reason as Holliday’s) this year are unreal, a huge improvement over his home splits. But he’s also three years older than Holliday, who may very well grow into even more power. All I’m saying is, Holliday wouldn’t be quite the desperation move make you make him out to be. Not Manny or Barry, but a solid middle of the order bat. Don’t really want to give up the picks though.
by cornball on Jul 22, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
also, i’m not advocating signing anyone here, just playing devil’s advocate. the giants do need a middle of the order bat and need to at their options. if they sign holliday or burrell, they would likely be overpaying to do so, in addition to the forfeited draft picks. but they might need to overpay for a bat that they likely wouldn’t have been able to develop.
by cornball on Jul 22, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. They may need to overpay for a bat that they likely wouldn’t have developed. I hope they don’t in a way because I’m really against overpaying for anyone, especially in what would likely be a long term deal.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Holliday but from 05-07 on the road his splits are alarming. Barely over .800 in OPS. Whereas he’s over 1.100 at home. Over 220 hits on the road in those 3 years and only 30 some home runs in that time. And that’s in over 800 AB’s so that’s more than a season. And not to mention he wouldn’t have anywhere near the protection here that he has in Colorado’s lineup.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
very true. this year might be an aberration. if he keeps it up next year, though, i would definitely support signing him. what stands out to me is the improved plate discipline on the road this year. if that keeps up, hopefully the power will follow. next year is definitely the key though. if his road splits slump/regress to the previous norm, the giants should go nowhere near him.
by cornball on Jul 22, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahem:
Next year should all be about seeing what we have with guys like Burriss, Denker, Frandsen, Lewis, Bowker, Schierholtz etc.
I thought that was what this year was supposed to be about?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We all thought that’s what it would be about, but it hasn’t been has it? Besides some of those guys really had no business being up here this soon like Denker, Burriss etc. And Frandsen got hurt in the spring.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
Lewis, check; Bowker, big surprise to most of us, check. Velez, check. Should have a read on him in a few months; so he skipped A+ altogether, and had half yr at AAA.
Denker, Burris, should be in AAA movin up the ladder.
Frandsen, hurt
Nate S-is workin on things in AAA-power, selection, so that maybe is the right level for him
so it is a fairly good yiear for seeing what we have
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
by foothillsfan on Jul 23, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
That’s what we all thought last year would have been. Then it was pushed to this year. Hopefully we get full commitment very soon. Otherwise, I doubt we will ever see it.
Only 875 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 22, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stopped reading at "veteran presence"
I have a rule against players over 30
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 22, 2008 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s the dumbest thing i’ve ever heard
by Viliphied on Jul 22, 2008 10:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
um
joke?
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 22, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to start with not gambling away the future to leave the farm system completely barren like it was just a few short seasons ago. Continue this building from the ground up thing. Continue to draft wisely.
A lot has to be done in player development to make sure these draftees can reach the raves and potential they are said to have on draft day. I want to see this included in the whatever year plan.
Free agency isn’t necessarily bad, but the Giants sure have sucked at it recently. Fix those pickups too. I’m not asking for a superstar every time. Just don’t blow it again. No more Zitos.
And for chrissakes, if you’re going to bring up the kids, PLAY THEM. Stop with this mismanagement bullshit.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 22, 2008 2:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
And for chrissakes, if you’re going to bring up the kids, PLAY THEM. Stop with this mismanagement bullshit.
+1,000,000. And by the way, Bochy, the way your left-handed hitters will overcome their poor splits against lefties is by playing them against lefties more often. Either they get better or you find out relatively quickly that they’re hopeless and you figure out another solution now, not two years from now. This isn’t rocket science.
No, my Crazy Crab bobblehead is not for sale.
by Kitspool on Jul 22, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah no kidding. The best way to fix a problem is make yourself face the problem over and over and over and over until you’re either dead or you’ve fixed it. It worked for me! I passed my road test on the very first try and I finally got stats concepts through my thick skull and am poised to pass the class that two weeks ago had me in tears.
So. Suck it up Boulderskull. Failure begets progress.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 22, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here here
Or is it hear hear?
Hare hare?
Only 875 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 22, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haz pitch fork. Can I join yourz mob?
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Jul 23, 2008 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
if you’re going to bring up the kids, PLAY THEM.
That seems to be part of the motivation for Sabean trading the vets. I saw a quote of his today that basically said if you have veterans on the roster, you have to respect them and their contracts (or some such bullshit) and play them. He also said something about playing the veterans for the next week+ to showcase them for trades.
Let’s see what the roster looks like Aug 1 – hopefully Bochy’s hand will be forced, and he’ll have to play the kids because that’s all he’ll have.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jul 22, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
fire Bochy.
don’t acquire Richie Sexson.
what Grant said.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Jul 22, 2008 2:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Get a new pitching coach
and what he said
by superk1ng on Jul 22, 2008 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
0-2 to 3-2 in the blink of an eye.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 22, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
is that Rags’s philosophy?
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 22, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
She
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jul 22, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
God, if we sign Sexson, I’m just going to quit baseball.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I know, I meant for next season.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 22, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Yankees quit baseball?!?
They’re taking being in third place even harder than I thought.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
by EliminateMe on Jul 22, 2008 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
don’t acquire Richie Sexson.
what Grant said.
Actually, I was pretty big on a Durham for Sexson swap this spring. Whoops.
Of course, that just means that the Giants would have essentially traded the #4 pick, Darren Ford, and Steve Hammond for the #1 overall pick. So maybe I would be a good GM.
by Grant on Jul 22, 2008 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Giants biggest problem looking forward
is that they have good young pitching NOW, but their hitting is still A-ball or further away. So not only are you relying on some of that good hitting to be ready in 2-3 years, you are relying on basically all of it. Because while Lewis/Rowand/Shierholtz/Bowker make an OK OF, they are not good enough to carry bowls of suck in the IF.
First question is: punt 2009 or not? Clearly the division is not as strong as we were lead to believe. Can we put a .500-ish team on the field for mere money?
Frankly, we still have no one to play 3B or SS for 2009. In house available options for 2B and 1B are are not to compensate replacement level play from the left side. C is kind of like our outfield – not going to kill us, but not driving us to flags.
Our projected finish is about 70-92. That’s with nothing significant in the way of underperformances. We need to make up 11 games to even get to .500.
I think we can safely put away ideas of a projected 90-win dynasty from 2011-2014 to rest.
There is some talent in the system, but not that much talent.
I do think putting together an 85ish win team in 2010 is doable. It might require signing a Furcal or two. I don’t see how we can get to even 81 wins next year… but I am not opposed to signing FAs that don’t cost compensation picks
Aren’t they doing away with FA compensation?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Jul 22, 2008 2:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that's a lot of confidence in our inabilities
But it is a solid FACT that some combination of moves would put a winning team on the field at some point in the next few years. The cupboard simply is not bare enough to preclude that possibility.
So, the question, as I understand it, is what is your recommended combination of moves?
I think that at some point, a management purge needs to happen. Bochy is just about the most uninspiring choice for manager for a rebuilding team imaginable. Ditto Sabes, who is used to throwing money around at big (and medium-sized) names. Frankly, since so much seems to do with ownership, I think a really, really bad season may do more for the Giants prospects of winning later than anything else, if it results in throwing out the trash in the FO.
As far as player management goes, that’s a tough one, because there is a definite need to bring up kids- lots of them- and see what we’ve got. But, at what cost? How many of them are screwed up by being moved too fast? That kind of thing will require the right touch, which goes back to FO issues.
Boy, it is indeed a tough row to hoe. But we got some real studs on the farm, so the payoff could be nice.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Jul 22, 2008 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PUNT 2009!
I’m tired of this win now crap that goes nowhere
I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..
by lmaozedong on Jul 22, 2008 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very Nicely Put Grant
You should start a blog or something.
Since I don’t disagree very much, if at all, with anything you said I think I’d like to comment on how likely each scenario is.
1) Many of us here have been advocating this for months. Maybe even years, I don’t know, I haven’t been around for years. But the point is we keep giving suggestions and Sabean keeps letting the opportunities pass by. The closest the organization has come to this strategy is, as you pointed out, Castillo. Second closest was Jose Cruz Jr., who was picked up in the off-season before 03 after the Blue Jays non-tendered him. I don’t necessarily mind the Castillo pick-up. It’s at least heading the right direction. I was comlimentary of the Cruz pickup. Of course, i remember thinking that the Giants should have gone after David Ortiz when Minnesota non-tendered him (not that I expected him to turn into what he ended being, but because he was undervalued even at the time). Of course, they didn’t. They had all the J.T. Snow that they could handle at first. The whole point is, the Giants are getting better but I doubt they use this strategy very much. I’d give it less than a 50% chance, definitely.
2) I think this is a given. Nearly 100% chance. I believe Lincecum, Cain and Sanchez will be around for a while and will be joined in a couple of years by others.
3) Unfortunately, smart and free-agent signing and Giants haven’t gone together very much. Ray Durham wasn’t bad. Aaron Rowand wasn’t horrible. Omar Vizquel was good but then Sabean re-signed him. Cruz was good. But then there’s been Alfonzo, Tucker, Roberts (and the attempted signings of Matthews Jr. and Pierre) and of course, Zito. The Giants track record with signing new free agents has been very checkered. There’s probably more bad than good. Last off-season was encouraging, however. It showed patience and restraint (Rowand signing aside). And even the one big deal they went for wasn’t bad. Rowand at least plays a premium position decently and isn’t bad offensively. Plus he’s relatively young. So it looks like they are going in the right direction, at least. I’m encouraged on this front.
4) Yep. They’ve had some in the past (Kent, Schmidt, Lincecum falling to 10) so it’s definitely a possibility that more could come.
5) Yep. And it seems as if the Giants are finally excercizing some. Maybe not as much as we’d like, but better than they have.
Only 875 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 22, 2008 3:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Michael Tucker would have been a fine signing if they had just waited and not punted the draft pick. In a vacuum, he was a cheap, useful player.
by rotorueter on Jul 22, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s primarily why I included him. Though there are a couple other reasons as well.
Only 875 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on Jul 22, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep stockpiling the talent. Never lose sight of the long term future for a possible short term gain. This is not to say that you should NEVER trade prospects, but for right now the Giants certainly shouldn’t trade many and only in exchange for other young players who could help the team for some time. This much is obvious and we can all agree on.
More specific plans: It seems to me that we have guys we need to give shots to in the outfield and middle infield. Guys like Bowker, Lewis, Schierholtz, Frandsen and Burriss deserve their ABs. Personally, I would’ve liked to see Burriss given more time in the minors, but at this point, I’d say just plug him into the starting lineup as much as possible and let him learn play. At catcher, it would appear that while we don’t have the prospects ready right this second, they are on the way.
As far as this offseason goes, the only names that really intrigue me are Teixeira and Dunn. Tex because, while he will be ridiculously expensive, he may the kind of player who could be worth it. He’s a legit middle of the order bat with no real flaws in his game. Gee, the Giants could use one of those, huh? I don’t think there’s any excuse for the team to at least not make a run at him. Now if he looks like he’s going to get A-Rod-esque money, of course we should back off, but definitely give it a shot and see what happens. Dunn, on the other hand, intrigues me because he could possibly be had for less than you’d expect given his power and on base numbers. If he comes at a bargain, I’d say go for it. Lord knows that SF has put up with less than stellar defense in left in the past and it’s worked out okay.
Nobody else should be signed as much more than a stopgap, with the possible exception of 3B where our complete lack of any young talent in the organization means we can maybe afford to give somebody along the lines of a Joe Crede a 3 year deal. But I think I’d prefer offering something to Hank Blalock in a kind of “we’ll hand you a job to give you a chance to prove you can stay healthy” kind of way. Good for both parties since the Giants have nothing to lose and plenty to gain (by way of trade at the deadline or re-signing after the season) should Blalock return to his form of a few years back.
This, is my general strategy then. Keep drafting the talent. Develop pitching from within, and grit your teeth over the Zito contract. DFA him eventually, if necessary, to make room for more young talent in the rotation. As far as the lineup goes, take shots at the players looking to rebound (the “buy low” types) each offseason while we wait for players at barren positions to develop. hope that maybe we get lucky on one or two who we can either spin off for prospects as the year goes on or resign as long term pieces for a contending roster. Only offer big time money to the true stars, like Tex or Holliday in another year. Guys who are clearly talented, motivated, and in their primes or entering them. They don’t come available often which is all the more reason why the Giants should avoid the stopgaps so they can sign the occasional blockbuster.
I’d like to think that this type of planning could have us contending by 2010 or sooner if some calculated gambles paid off, but I don’t even really think we should put a timetable on it. The point is to find a system that maximizes our organizations potential. To me, that means one where we supply the majority of our talent from within and also give the occasional really good outsider tons of cash. We need to be the big budget A’s who can afford to keep their Dan Haren-types when they develop or the slightly smaller budget Red Sox who maybe don’t spend $100 million on an unknown Japanese import (yes it worked for them but it was pretty damn risky, IMO), but still aren’t afraid of the occasional big splash on the FA or international market.
Bring on the future. As long as we keep looking big picture there will someday come a time when the future is now. And the future beyond that future won’t look too shabby either.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...
by Smoke on the Water on Jul 22, 2008 3:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
how many you got?
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Jul 22, 2008 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we should sign a punter
So Tim won’t hurt his leg
by giants9107 on Jul 22, 2008 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Darin Erstad was a punter in college!
I’m sure none of you were aware of this fact.
The All-Father is now a Giant!
by EliminateMe on Jul 22, 2008 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
FOOTBALL PLAYER
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 22, 2008 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants at least have a strong foundation to build on
and that is their young trio of starting pitchers. As Grant alluded, trading any of them to fill a hole elsewhere would weaken that foundation and would really amount to running in place. If the Giants had someone who could immediately step in to fill a gaping hole in the starting rotation, then by all means consider trading one of the Big Three. But until they have replacements it would be ludicrous to break up the team’s strongest facet.
I would consider it a three year plan, since that is when the Little Three is likely to be ready. Imagine a starting rotation of five from among Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgarner, Alderson, and Sosa. It certainly gives us hope. But until then I say the Giants should continue with the program that seems to have been installed this year… draft high upside offensive players and continue to uncover the hidden pitching gems they have been so good at finding in years past.
by baseballjunkie on Jul 22, 2008 5:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent plan!
I think this plan is excellent. Please allow me to give a couple of caveats at the beginning, comment on each of Grant’s five points and then add one more at the end.
The two caveats would be, first that while Grant doesn’t want more than a three-year plan, I think it will take four. That doesn’t mean his three-year plan is bad though. In fact, it is quite good. It’s just that plans sometimes take a tad longer than was, well, planned.
The second caveat is that I don’t see Freddie Lewis or Nate Schierholtz as likely to be better than average corner outfielders. Freddie strikes out too much to likely hit for average once his BABIP re-enters the ozone, and Nate just doesn’t draw enough walks, particularly for a guy with modest pop for his position.
I do believe that between those two and John Bowker, it is reasonable to think that the Giants should get one and might well get two average corner outfielders. Anything above that would enter the part of Grant’s plan that rests on pleasant surprises.
Grant’s plan starts with finding undervalued assets, which by the way will tie in to the final point I would like to add. Hopefully the Giants’ new scouting additions will excel at this facet of scouting. The Giants’ free agent scouting hasn’t seemed to be exceptional in the past (at least not in a positive manner), but perhaps that has changed when it comes both to potential free agent acquisitions and to potential trades.
Grant wants to keep the young rotation together, and that seems sound. The Giants seem to have three legs of a very nice rotation in Lincecum, Cain and Sanchez—and in Bumgarner and Alderson they would seem to be well positioned to add two strong legs by about 2010. Kevin Correia, Noah Lowry, Barry Zito, Patrick Misch, Steve Hammond and Henry Sosa remain other possibilities.
If the Giants don’t mess things up, they could be putting together as we speak the pieces of a dominant rotation.
Grant wants smart free agents signings, and the Giants do indeed have money available prior to the potential free agency of Lincecum and Cain. His idea of signing TOP free agents, not merely mediocre-to-good ones, is sound and imperative. One issue in signing a top free agent is that well over a third of the salary budget could wind up being tied up in two players, one of whom hasn’t yet been productive.
But the Giants seem to have enough money in the short term to pull that off. Somewhere in the early-to-mid part of next decade salary will likely become a huge issue, one which might best be dealt with by making Billy Beane-type trades of established players who are soon to become expensive for younger, less expensive assets. But for now the Giants would seem to have enough money to pay someone REALLY good.
They have tried and failed to land the top free agents the past two winters, although Aaron Rowand wasn’t a bad consolation prize—and an asset that could perhaps be traded down the line.
The fourth thing Grant wants is luck, and sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. Luck will likely determine whether the Giants become competitive in three years - or if it will take longer. It may determine whether they merely become competitive - or if they will have one of the top teams in baseball. If their luck is bad, of course, all bets are off.
Finally Grant want the Giants to exercise patience, which may well be the strongest leg of very solid plan. As the Giants begin to improve, it can be tempting to go for the quick fix. that hasn’t worked for the Giants in quite a while now and should be rejected.
The one point I would like to add to Grant’s plan - Dare we call it magnificent? I don’t think that would be inappropriate. - would be a corollary to finding undervalued assets. The corollary says to quickly identify the OVERvalued assets in your own organization and trade them for undervalued assets before anyone else realizes they are overvalued.
Oh, and one more point I just thought of. Put together another really nice draft in 2009. The farm system is gaining more depth quickly, but it could use another shot in the arm next year, when the Giants might well have another top-five pick. If they trade off enough veterans (which would yet another point of emphasis that Grant likely implied), they might even get the top one or two picks. They’re not that far away.
And one or two of the 2009 picks could be contributors in 2011 or at least by 2012.
In addition to the young players I mentioned previously, the Giants have a potential solid foundation from their first four draft picks this year, from Rafael Rodriguez, from Angel Villalona and from Pablo Sandoval, Nick Noonan and hopefully Manny Burriss and Charlie Culberson.
And they have a brigade of young relievers led by closer Brian Wilson.
The future actually look quite bright from where I sit. As long as the Giants don’t try to rush it.
Grant ended his plan with patience, and it might well have been his very most important point of all.
by sharksrog on Jul 22, 2008 5:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The thing with Nate is we barely got to see him, and he had a decent avg when he was up. I want to see what he can do before people call him “average”. He has had success in AAA, so trade Winn and let’s see what he can do up in the Bigs.
by giants9107 on Jul 22, 2008 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could turn out better, of course
It could turn out better, of course, but I see nothing about Nate Schierholtz that projects into his becoming an above-average major leaguer if and until he achieves his stated goal of waiting for more pitches he can drive.
Last season at Fresno, before he undertook his new goal last winter, Nate had an extra base hit every 7.6 at bats. This season he has an extra base hit every 7.6 at bats. That’s not a huge improvement.
Nate’s walk total in his minor league full seasons have been 34, 32, 27, 17 and 20 so far this season. That’s not quite what we’re looking for, either.
I personally think of Nate as about a .290 hitter in the major leagues. But his lack of secondary skills (OBP and SLG) make it difficult for him to become an above-average corner outfielder.
I like Nate, but he doesn’t appear likely to earn the nickname “The Great.”
by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with building around young pitching is
that it’s a very unpredictable position to account for.
There was a time when Shawn Estes was an All-Star in his first full big league season. And fizzled out the next year. Russ Ortiz won 18 games his first full season and he too fizzled out shortly after. There have been others like Jerome Williams, Foppert etc who too have fizzled out into oblivion, albeit their success was far less.
Obviously our current 3 have more talent and to an extent (with exception to Sanchez) have had more success than some of the previously mentioned above, but the main point remains the same. You cannot really count on or expect to continue to get the same kind of performance from young pitchers.
Further compounding this problem is in the past with such young pitching failures, the Giants actually had the ML talent to overcome those injuries or dropoffs in performances. The Giants today and likely in the near future as it stands will not have the talent level to overcome such a drop in performance. So while it may hurt to think of such things, I think its awfully naive to expect the Giants to have a future rotation of Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Mad Bum and Sosa/Alderson. That just is not going to happen.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 5:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
But all of our pitchers are lumped together, so the odds of them turning out great are better, in my opinion. So if 2 out of the 3 fail, we get one good pitcher to go with the Three we have.
by giants9107 on Jul 22, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The three we have could ultimately end up failing too.
by Hobbes2d on Jul 22, 2008 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trade 'em all
They suck.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Jul 22, 2008 5:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point taken, but there are a couple of rebuttals to make:
- You’re selling Russ Ortiz short. For a few years, he was pretty valuable. He would have fit for a three- or five-year plan.
- The volatility of young position players is underrated. More importantly, though, is an example of a team like Texas, who continues to crank out position players (Teixiera, Kinsler, Young) with little to show for it because they keep giving away their young pitching (Young/Danks, and even though Volquez wasn’t given away, he should still be part of the discussion….).
by Grant on Jul 22, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course they won’t all pan out. But I think you should still look at the six of them as an organizational strength to build around.
by Dan from NM on Jul 22, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
While admitting
While admitting that injuries, trades and even a lack of development make you the favorite by taking a negative position regarding a rotation of The Big Three, Mad Bum and Timmy Two/Sosa, just how is it “awfully naive” to expect that rotation? How can you say with certainty “this just is not going to happen.”
You are probably going to be right, but stranger things have happened. How is it more naive to anticipate such a rotation than to blindly state, “That is just not going to happen.”?
I think a reasonable person takes the position that such a rotation is unlikely, even given the beauty and logic of it. For one thing, what would the Giants do with Barry Zito? But I also don’t think a reasonable person makes the absolute statement “that is just not going to happen.:
I have found that when people make absolute statements, they are almost always wrong.
by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post, Grant. I’m not sure what to add.
Point No. 3 made me think of Adam Dunn. Is it possible he’s underrated because of the strikeout rate and bad defense? At one point, I thought he’d be overvalued because of the raw home run and RBI totals, but then the Reds offered him in trade without much interest.
He might be the kind of young-ish talent I’d pay market value for (at first base or in left) when he’s a free agent.
by Dan from NM on Jul 22, 2008 7:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I see him aging poorly, so I wouldn’t want more than a three- or maaaaaybe a four-year deal. Someone will give him five, though, and at a high price.
I’d love some o’ that power in the lineup, though. It’s a shame that he’s so awful in the field.
by Grant on Jul 22, 2008 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with your points.
Myself I look at this a 3 year plan. 3 years to get in position for something special not tell a W.S. Maybe this season is year one. If playing time is used less foolishly this season. If by the end of year 2 ( dare I hope next season) the Giants have young, team controlled, almost league average ( or better talent) for 5 or 6 the 8 fielding positions then I think the club is in good shape. Only Molinia ‘s contract expires after ‘09 so it would not be like the Giants are loosing lots of starters.
The Team will be in really good shape if Sabean can resist the urge to tie up a lot of money and years with an over 33 "meh" type player. Sorry brethern but I see Dunn , as a L.F.er, as one of these.
If the N.L. West plays out next year as it has so far this year that means we have pretender club in ‘09.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Jul 23, 2008 8:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Dunn is Neither "meh" or over 33.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 23, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn can hit the ball out of Yellowstone Park. After that he is decidedly "Meh" as a Left Fielder. Don’t forget the NL west has a lot of large out fields so this is a legit concern. Now if Dunn was to agree to go try First base that is an entirely animal for discussion.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Jul 24, 2008 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I loved it
I loved your comment that only Bengie Molina’s contracts expires after 2009, so it wouldn’t be like the Giants are losing lots of starters. You are absolutely correct, but is that a blessing or a curse? :)
by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To use the over worked phrase, "It is what it is."
The upside should be no more Roberts type contracts. The down side is can the franchise either find or produce then prove 2-3 infielders be the end of ‘09? Yes I am including Bowker in that group – though just barely.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Jul 24, 2008 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a "no-duh" strategy
Keep the talent, find some gems, make good FA signings, get some luck… shouldn’t that be the strategy for anyone who isn’t in the top 5 in net income?
The only thing in there that seems to require a conscious decision is the free agent signings. You know that Vlad and guys like him will go for a clear top dog in the money game. Do you offer it or not?
The rest of it is just trying to do the same things better than the other guys.
"[Greg] Vaughn is in a funk so deep, George Clinton wearing a miner's helmet couldn't find him."
- Jim Baker, ESPN.com, May 2002
by achiappanza on Jul 23, 2008 9:35 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The whole FA money thing
Isn’t super clear. While we are all resistant to Roberts type signings, there is some justification for this.
The team has about 3 years before they will need to throw money at Cain and Lincecum to keep them around. (not sure what the deal is w/ Sanchez).
So, at that point – we want to make sure we have the money to do so, and Roberts like signings sucking up salary would really be bad.
However, in the 3 year interim, the team has about 20-30 million to play with (depending on who we can get off the books this season, plspls Randy Winn). If they do not spend it on players, it just goes into the owner’s pockets – and that doesn’t do us or the team any good.
So, that being said, If we can find players that help the team at positions where young talent is not available (3b, 1b maybe, SS?) and we can sign them to deals that expire prior to the Caincecum FA bonanza, then we shouldn’t hesitate to spend the money.
3 years of Crede, for example, wouldn’t necessarily be a bad choice.
Consider them transitional players – not part of the “future”, but also not blocking anyone and in the meantime making the team better. I look at Rowand as one of these signings.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 23, 2008 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Free agent signings
I agree with Grant that if the Giants go after a free agent, it should be one of the top ones. Aaron Rowand was a decent signing because he’s solid, a “gamer” and will still be young enough in 2011 or 2012 to help the team when it might become good.
But the Giants don’t really need any more such signings, at least not until they find out what holes remain once the youngsters have had a reasonable chance to develop. A team can always use a top player, but a rebuilding team shouldn’t seek out merely good players until it identifies a key hole that must be filled as icing on the cake. For now, it’s time to bake the cake and keep the payroll fairly low so that when a great free agent or that “final piece” becomes available, affording the signing won’t be an issue.
by sharksrog on Jul 23, 2008 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I already got into this on another thread, but you are assuming that saving the money this year means it is avaliable for next year.
I have seen no evidence of this.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 25, 2008 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am still not sold of Crede’s health enough for 3 Years. Or 2 and an option. A guy with nagging health issue has a good contract year and then get singed for 2-3 years. Did not we just get off that merry go round on Sunday?
Too be fair Crede is one of the Free agents on my short list. Blalock ( who has been unhealthy this season) is another. Again though I am hoping only for short term offers ( if any offer) to either.
Ivan Ochoa - Heir to the legacy of Rob Andrews & Rikkert Faneyte!
by daveinexile on Jul 24, 2008 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d do two years with a team option on Crede. I don’t think he would, though.
by Grant on Jul 25, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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