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BA - Giants Boast Pair of Standout Arms in Alderson and Bumgarner

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/prospects/prospect-pulse/2008/266482.html

 

...One question mark for Bumgarner has been the future potential of his breaking ball. Bumgarner scrapped the curveball he had in high school and now uses a slider. His changeup is also in an early stage of development. At the all-star game, Bumgarner threw 26 pitches, 25 of which were fastballs

edit by Grant: Sure, you could read an extended passage from the article, but wouldn't it feel better to pay Baseball America for the privilege of being a subscriber? It's worth it, I promise.

 There's a bunch of other good quotes in there too. Like how the Giants tried to change Bumgarner's windup, and he struggled with it and since going back to his old one has been dominating. Alderson mentioned trying to work on a changeup. Pablito mentions Alderson having really good stuff, giving major props to his curveball.

Also in the latest BA Chat, Jim Callis was asked to give the #1 prospect for each team, and he named Mad Bum the Giants top prospect....

 

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Great information there about MadBum’s breaking ball, something I know we’ve all been wondering about. If it’s still not developed, then I hope they continue to move him along relatively slowly but I do worry that if he continues to not be challenged in low-A throwing mostly fastballs, the change/slurve will be neglected. Though I suppose the coaches have probably told him to concentrate on working with his offspeed stuff too.

I don’t know, I’m glad to have him and TimA

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 17, 2008 3:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Secondary pitches

I wonder if Mad Bum threw almost all fastballs in the All-Star game merely to save his arm. I saw him early in the season on milb.tv, and he was using both the breaking ball and the change up a fair amount.

I thought the pitches looked OK (although the screen was small and grainy), but not surprisingly his command appeared to need improvement.

by sharksrog on Jul 17, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Most accounts are that he has improved his breaking ball this year. But its still a pitch in progress.

by Hobbes2d on Jul 17, 2008 6:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Every pitcher should throw a change-up

by wilriv21 on Jul 17, 2008 7:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

For a second I read that as “Anderson” and thought “Him?”

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jul 17, 2008 3:33 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sorry for the edit, but BA really does check sites like this for copyright infringement. They’re really, really thorough, and considering their business model is based entirely on subscribers, I don’t blame them.

by Grant on Jul 17, 2008 3:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I figured as such, and wasn’t sure how much I could really quote from the article. Wanted to try to get that blurb about Mad Bum’s breaking ball in though.

by Hobbes2d on Jul 17, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

all right

so in this context (rather than in the lost netherworld of fanshots), what say we of BP John Perrotto’s statement in his piece earlier today:
The Giants would “be willing to trade some of their top pitching prospects for a young hitter who can bat in the middle of the order”.
He isn’t specific, of course, but this has to mean Alderson or Madbum or Sosa
On the surface, it seems that selling high on MadBum would be the way to go, given the concerns about his delivery.

by BigO on Jul 17, 2008 4:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Not sure there are really that many young hitters out there with ML experience already who are on the market. That won’t happen until the Winter most likely. IE possibly Prince Fielder, or Ryan Howard or JJ Hardy etc.

by Hobbes2d on Jul 17, 2008 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know Sosa was off the hook in the SALly League

But I saw him pitch last weekend and wasn’t impressed. His fastball never got above 92 and got knocked around by a pretty competent Ports offense. I’d venture to say that Sosa is overrated at the moment, and we might could sell high on him too.

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Jul 17, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I saw Sosa vs the Ports like a month and a half ago and was pretty impressed. He was hitting the mid 90s that day and flashed a good breaking ball. Wasn’t bad for only his 2nd or 3rd start of the year.

by Hobbes2d on Jul 17, 2008 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And

And if you saw that it might be time to sell Sosa “high,” other teams likely saw it as well.

Brian Sabean’s history has been good at knowing which unproven pitchers to trade. But other teams are no doubt acutely aware of that. To me the market seems to be dictating developing pitchers and then trading them AFTER they’re proven. That approach relies heavily on scouting, of course, but that is the are in which Brian cut his teeth with the Yankees.

by sharksrog on Jul 17, 2008 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm torn

I’m a bit torn here.

The biggest mistake I think the Giants could make would be to trade away potential merely to become a little more competitive a bit sooner.

If they have enough patience, I think it is possible they could build a rotation for the ages. On the other hand, I would like to see them leverage their good pitching into other assets.

The way I would do that would be to build a strong pipeline that would enable the Giants to trade PROVEN pitchers - as the A’s have been doing - for more prospects to add to the pipeline, particularly in positions of weakness in the system (such as shortstop). Frankly the Giants aren’t overloaded at ANY position organizationally, with the likely exception of pitcher.

I would have traded Noah Lowry over a year ago, but that window has passed for the foreseeable future. If Matt Cain has the fine second half I expect from him, I would look over the winter at offers for him, with the idea of opening up another spot for the young studs on the way up.

Regarding Mad Bum, I had reservations about his motion when I saw his draft video. But his statistics were overpowering. If my best scouts and pitching coaches were worried about long-term arm health, I would consider dealing him. Otherwise, I would trade a proven pitcher such as Cain in order to open a spot for Mad Bum to eventually take.

The A’s have led the way, but this season has seen a few nice trades of pitchers for very good prospects—including pitching prospects. I think that is a pattern the Giants should jump on, if they haven’t already missed their window of opportunity.

But one thing has been rather constant throughout baseball history. There is almost always a demand for good pitching. The Giants need to capitalize on that. And particularly given that their window of opportunity likely opens in about four years, they should take advantage of the nice market that has developed in acquiring good but unproven talent for proven pitching.

by sharksrog on Jul 17, 2008 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Otherwise, I would trade a proven pitcher such as Cain in order to open a spot for Mad Bum to eventually take.

I agree with this. I think it might be prudent to deal one of the stalwarts of the current rotation for middle of the order bats. This is because the Giants are much more likely to replace said stalwarts than they are of coming up with a middle of the order bat or two.

Only 878 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Jul 17, 2008 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

as to Mad Bum’s long term health, if Giants scouts were so convinced that he was an injury risk (like many non-Giants scouts were with Lincecum in ‘06) then why draft him at all? Presumably, the team did its homework, pre-draft.

Also, the Giants and the A’s are in different situations. The A’s are, from what I’ve read, trying to ready the team to move into its new ballpark in 3-5 years. They’re also on a much tighter budget and they make these moves to save money. Also, the A’s have tradeable pitching. Harden was such an injury risk and Blanton, well, isn’t that good, but he’s an innings eater and had his moments (mostly at home, as he’s a flyball pitcher.) Haren was the biggest surprise, but that was mostly to save money and stock up. Cain isn’t considered just an innings-eater type or has reached his ceiling like Blanton probably has. Nor is he the injury risk that Harden is. There’s no need to trade Cain (or Lincecum or Sanchez) just to stock up the farm system or save money as they’re relatively cheap and controllable for a number of years (plus, they’re possibly perennial all-stars.) Unfortunately, Zito ($$) and Correia (suck) are not that tradeable, so the Giants are stuck with a potentially dominant/awesome rotation for a few more seasons.

Also, it’s kinda too early to think that either Sosa, Mad Bum, or Alderson will be ready to pitch in the majors as soon as next season, as your comment about opening up a spot in the rotation, indicates. IF the Giants were to consider trading Cain, one of those three had better be ready to go.

I agree that they team should have made some deals like this a two years ago (with Schmidt and Lowry, not to mention Durham, Feliz or Omar), and not pulling the trigger on those type of deals were as bad of mistakes as some of the poor moves that Sabean has made. So, in that respect, that window may have closed.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 17, 2008 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

"then why draft him at all? Presumably, the team did its homework"

Draft a guy who will probably break down eventually, but will be really shiny until he does?
Hope to flip him for bats before he needs surgery?

/tinfoil :-)

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Jul 17, 2008 10:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose that's one way of looking at it

but, if he’s such an injury risk, the team may not be able to get as much for him as you’d hope.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 18, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

From the article:

With Bumgarner, the Giants “changed my whole windup,” according to the lefty, but the early returns weren’t so good. After allowing 10 runs in 11 innings through his first three starts, Bumgarner reverted to his old windup and immediately dominated.

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on Jul 18, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

IF the Giants were to consider trading Cain, one of those three had better be ready to go.

Why? Do you think they will contend next year?

Only 878 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Jul 18, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do not understand

Is that what you tell your 25-man roster? Your season tix holders? Advertisers?

by wilriv21 on Jul 18, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It happens all of the time

Teams understand they won’t be competing and so they make moves with an eye toward a season beyond the current one. Sometimes even the next one too. It’s not really that foreign a concept to MLB.

Only 878 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Jul 19, 2008 12:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

A couple of clarifications

First, it is I who worry about Mad Bum’s long-term arm health, not the Giants’ scouts. Hopefully they’re right, and I’m wrong. I did feel better about Mad Bum after Carlos Gomez gave him a sold grade on mechanics. Carlos knows a lot more about them than I do.

Second, I didn’t mean to imply that Sosa, Mad Bum or Timmy Two would be ready to take Matt Cain’s spot in the rotation next season. I doubt very much that will be the case—at least not at the beginning of the year, and likely not at all. That is why I specifically said “I would trade a proven pitcher such as Matt Cain in order to open up a spot for Mad Bum to EVENTUALLY take.”

The Giants aren’t likely to truly compete next season, so I’m not worried about the rotation then. Patrick Misch or Brad Hennessey would be OK with me.

by sharksrog on Jul 19, 2008 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anagram of "Giants Farm System"

Arms-fest may sting

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on Jul 17, 2008 9:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

AHHH WHAT?

http://tinyurl.com/64kr9g (#10)

good mechanics, finish is a bit on the abrupt side. HIS MECHANICS ARE FINE!

If a mechanics expert can be quoted somewhere saying otherwise, can we please put to rest the notion that there is anything wrong with Bumgarner’s mechanics.

If anything, Alderson has the poor mechanics of the two!

BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jul 18, 2008 4:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I don't like

I don’t like Timmy Two’s mechanics either. :)

by sharksrog on Jul 19, 2008 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who the hell is John Perrotto??

The Giants are going to trade their young pitchers because he said so?? Funny, I heard Brian Sabean said he will not trade any young pitching. Right now the Giants have a major league pitching staff where about half of the guys are keepers. There are plenty of openings for their pitchers of the future. And what do you want to get for these young pitchers?? You have Posey coming for behind the plate, Villalona for first base, (Sandoval, maybe TI, coming in case either shocks us and doesn’t make it), you have Frandsen, Denker, Velez for second, Burriss for short, Gillaspie and Roehlnger for third, and young outfielders like Nate, Bowker, (if not first base) Lewis, Fairley, Horwitz, EME, etc. What exactly does this team need more than its young pitching?? And finally, you also have a successful (business wise) franchise that is not afraid to go out on the market and fill a need with a free agent. The Giants do not need to trade young pitching, nor should they do so. (and in my opinion, they won’t) Perrotto probably knows his baseball, but I doubt he has an in with the Giants.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Jul 18, 2008 6:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Middle of the Order bats

The Giants need middle of the order bats. The only real middle of the order bats you mentioned are Villalona (who is both hardly a sure thing and far away from the majors) and maybe Posey (who might be a better #2 hitter) and Gillaspie (who might be Bill Mueller) and Sandoval (maybe; for emphasis).

None of that makes it so the Giants don’t need middle of the order bats. The only way they get those are trade or free agents. There’s not a lot on the free agent market this year or next. The Giants have three stud pitchers in the majors and three stud prospects plus many lesser prospects that have a decent shot at being 3rd-5th starters. They can afford to trade some of their pitching. We don’t need to hoard it.

Only 878 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Jul 18, 2008 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You make a decent point, but there’s no guarantee that your pitching prospects bring you a middle of the order hitter, and not only that, you mentioned four guys that might be middle of the order hitters eventually. They will also be looking at high draft position again next season and probably the one after that. That’s plenty of opportunities to fill in those three spots between everything, and like I said, they also have free agency, although you are correct to point out that pickings have been slim recently. However you say we’re hoarding pitching, and I can’t really agree with that. Which pitcher in the minors should be in the majors right now but he’s being blocked because we have so many pitchers?? If that eventually happens, we can make the move then, there’s really no reason to do it now for an unproven player who might be a future middle of the order hitter. The scary thing is if you trade one of the kids and he turns out to be a stud and the others wind up disappointing.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Jul 18, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's risk in everything

We can go over what if scenarios all day. What if Lincecum becomes Mark Prior 2.0? What if Cain’s workload at a young age catches up to him? What if this is just a temporary step forward for Sanchez? What if Alderson/Bumgarner/Sosa never develop? What we have to do is go with what has the best chance of making the Giants a good team in the future.

Sure there’s risk involved in trading one or two of the sensational six, but there’s risk in keeping them too. I just trust the Giants ability to come up with more stud pitchers than I trust their ability to come up with an impact bat.

Only 878 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Jul 18, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Mark, Mark, Mark

You say “you have Frandsen, Denker, Velez for second, Burriss for short, Gillaspie and Roehlinger for third, and young outfielders like Nate, Bowker, (If not first base) Lewis, Fairley, EME, etc.” When were you going to get to the GOOD prospects for those positions? :)

I do like Gillaspie and Fairley, and I think Nate is good enough to start and that Bowker might be. Burriss and Frandsen are possiblities. But aside from Fairley and possibly Gillaspie, I don’t see any stars there—and likely no more than two or three starters, most of merely adequate stature.

As for trading young pitching, a source reasonably close to the Giants but not an insider told me he felt they would trade their young players to get well quickly. I suggested they hold onto their young pitchers because they might be able to build an all-time type of rotation.

So I would be fine with holding onto the young pitchers. But I would be open to trading proven pitchers whose value might be up, much as the Indians and A’s have done. Those teams have picked up some nice prospects.

by sharksrog on Jul 19, 2008 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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