Fun With Game Scores

by SnowLeopard on Jun 9, 2008 6:16 PM PDT Comment 26 comments

[Warning : LOTS OF CHARTS]

I imagine everyone knows what the statistic "game score" is? If you don't, this is for you.

I have a spreadsheet that I keep with information on starts by Giants pitchers. It's got data from opening day 1996 to, well, yesterday's game in it. Today, procrastinating packing to move, I was messing around with the "game score" column, and I wanna share some of what I came up with.

Here comes the science ...

Here are the Giants pitchers who have started ten or more games since 1996, post-season included, ranked by descending number of total starts:

Rueter	283
Schmidt	166
SEstes	159
RuOrtiz	159
MrkGardner	148
LiHernandez	115
Lowry	100
Cain	83
Tomko	60
Morris	54
VanLandingham	49
JerWilliams	47
Zito	46
Hennessey	40
RyJensen	40
OsFernandez	39
Lincecum	37
Hershiser	34
Correia	32
DaDarwin	32
AlnWatson	29
Nathan	28
DuHermanson	24
Foppert	23
MrkLeiter	22
JerSanchez	21
JaWright	21
Brock	19
DaMoss	19
Ainsworth	15
WilAlvarez	12
SPonson	11
Misch	10

Here are their average game score, in descending order:

Schmidt	58.3
Lincecum	56.7
Cain	54.4
SPonson	52.2
Ainsworth	52.0
WilAlvarez	52.0
JerWilliams	51.2
Lowry	51.1
RuOrtiz	51.0
SEstes	50.7
DuHermanson	49.8
JerSanchez	49.3
MrkGardner	49.3
Correia	49.3
Hershiser	49.3
AlnWatson	49.2
Tomko	49.2
LiHernandez	49.0
Nathan	47.9
MrkLeiter	47.6
Morris	47.4
Rueter	47.3
Foppert	47.2
Zito	46.9
RyJensen	46.9
DaMoss	46.8
OsFernandez	46.2
Hennessey	46.1
Brock	45.2
VanLandingham	44.9
JaWright	44.8
DaDarwin	44.6
Misch	40.7

Man, Schmidt was good for us. Can't say as I'm too unhappy I've never seen him in blue. And I don't remember Kurt Ainsworth, Jermome Williams, or Sir Sidney being that good for us, and I don't think of Pat Misch or "Bad Brad" Hennessey as being that bad. But, other than that - no real surprises I guess.

Here is a list of game score standard deviation. Basically, the lower the SD, the most stable the pitcher was from start-to-start. The higher the SD, the more the pitcher varied in how good a start you got from one to another (how "flaky" or "mercurial" they were)

Hermanson	13.2
Ainsworth	13.4
Correia	13.4
Williams	13.7
Foppert	13.9
Alvarez	13.9
Ponson	13.9
Misch	14.0
Lincecum	14.4
Moss	15.3
Hershiser	15.5
Darwin	15.5
Rueter	15.8
Wright	16.4
Brock	16.5
Ortiz	16.6
WatsonAln	16.6
FernandezOs	16.6
RyJensen	16.9
Lowry	16.9
Tomko	17.1
VanLandingham	17.3
Schmidt	17.3
Morris	17.4
MrkLeiter	17.6
Cain	17.9
LiHernandezLi	17.9
Estes	18.0
Gardner	18.0
Zito	18.1
Sanchez	18.1
Nathan	18.2
Hennessey	18.8

The highest game score so far of the Enchanter's young career has been an 83, July 1st last year. In his honor, here is some game score porn : all thirty-seven the Giants 83 or higher game scores from the past thirteen years of play :

* 2007-07-01 - Lincecum, at Hm vs ARI, Giants win 13-0 - 7.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 12 K, 0 HR, 97 Pitches, 83 Game Score

* 2007-05-20 - Morris, away vs OAK, Giants win 4-1 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 2 BB, 9 K, 0 HR, 127 Pitches, 86 Game Score

* 2006-09-14 - Cain, at Hm vs COL, Giants win 5-0 - 8.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, 118 Pitches, 84 Game Score

* 2006-08-21 - Lowry, at Hm vs ARI, Giants win 5-0 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 6 K, 0 HR, 114 Pitches, 88 Game Score

* 2006-06-19 - Cain, at Hm vs LAA, Giants win 2-1 - 8.0 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 4 BB, 10 K, 0 HR, 131 Pitches, 84 Game Score

* 2006-06-06 - Schmidt, at Hm vs FLA, Giants win 2-1 - 9.0 IP, 7 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 16 K, 1 HR, 124 Pitches, 84 Game Score

* 2006-05-21 - Cain, away vs OAK, Giants win 6-0 - 9.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 3 BB, 5 K, 0 HR, 120 Pitches, 87 Game Score

* 2006-05-03 - Schmidt, away vs MIL, Giants win 2-0 - 9.0 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, 112 Pitches, 84 Game Score

* 2005-09-09 - Cain, at Hm vs CHC, Giants win 2-1 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 8 K, 1 HR, 105 Pitches, 86 Game Score

* 2004-08-12 - Schmidt, away vs PIT, Giants win 7-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 120 Pitches, 89 Game Score

* 2004-08-03 - Lowry, at Hm vs CIN, Giants win 11-0 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 9 K, 0 HR, 120 Pitches, 88 Game Score

* 2004-06-20 - Schmidt, at Hm vs BOS, Giants win 4-0 - 9.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 9 K, 0 HR, 133 Pitches, 92 Game Score

* 2004-05-18 - Schmidt, away vs CHC, Giants win 1-0 - 9.0 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 13 K, 0 HR, 144 Pitches, 97 Game Score

* 2003-09-30 - Schmidt, at Hm vs FLA, Giants win 2-0 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 5 K, 0 HR, 111 Pitches, 86 Game Score

* 2003-06-24 - Schmidt, at Hm vs LA, Giants win 2-1 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 6 K, 0 HR, 127 Pitches, 83 Game Score

* 2003-06-19 - Schmidt, away vs LA, Giants win 2-0 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 127 Pitches, 90 Game Score

* 2003-05-21 - Schmidt, away vs ARI, Giants win 6-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 8 K, 0 HR, 119 Pitches, 87 Game Score

* 2003-04-30 - Schmidt, at Hm vs CHC, Giants win 5-0 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 12 K, 0 HR, 117 Pitches, 91 Game Score

* 2002-09-25 - LiHernandez, at Hm vs SD, Giants win 6-0 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 2 K, 0 HR, 111 Pitches, 84 Game Score

* 2002-08-20 - Schmidt, at Hm vs NYM, Giants win 1-0 - 9.0 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 13 K, 0 HR, 128 Pitches, 90 Game Score

* 2002-08-19 - LiHernandez, away vs FLA, Giants win 3-0 - 9.0 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 8 K, 0 HR, 138 Pitches, 83 Game Score

* 2002-07-12 - LiHernandez, at Hm vs COL, Giants win 9-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 4 BB, 8 K, 0 HR, 132 Pitches, 83 Game Score

* 2002-06-19 - Schmidt, at Hm vs TB, Giants win 8-0 - 9.0 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 127 Pitches, 87 Game Score

* 2002-05-28 - Schmidt, at Hm vs ARI, Giants win 1-0 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 6 K, 0 HR, 112 Pitches, 86 Game Score

* 2000-08-18 - LiHernandez, at Hm vs ATL, Giants win 2-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 10 K, 0 HR, 121 Pitches, 87 Game Score

* 1999-09-14 - Estes, at Hm vs FLA, Giants win 3-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 8 K, 0 HR, 107 Pitches, 85 Game Score

* 1998-09-20 - Estes, at Hm vs LA, Giants lose 1-0 - 8.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 10 K, 1 HR, 114 Pitches, 83 Game Score

* 1998-06-28 - Gardner, at Hm vs TEX, Giants win 7-0 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 5 K, 0 HR, 108 Pitches, 86 Game Score

* 1998-06-15 - Estes, at Hm vs COL, Giants lose 4-3 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 115 Pitches, 85 Game Score

* 1997-08-08 - Gardner, away vs MON, Giants win 4-0 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, 103 Pitches, 89 Game Score

* 1997-07-04 - Estes, at Hm vs COL, Giants win 4-0 - 8.1 IP, 1 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 2 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 138 Pitches, 89 Game Score

* 1997-05-23 - Estes, at Hm vs STL, Giants win 2-0 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 3 BB, 5 K, 0 HR, 128 Pitches, 85 Game Score

* 1997-04-30 - Gardner, away vs PIT, Giants win 6-1 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 105 Pitches, 88 Game Score

* 1997-04-26 - Estes, away vs HOU, Giants win 2-0 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 9 K, 0 HR, 108 Pitches, 91 Game Score

* 1996-06-02 - MrkLeiter, away vs MON, Giants win 8-1 - 9.0 IP, 5 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 11 K, 1 HR, 84 Game Score

* 1996-04-25 - Gardner, at Hm vs ATL, Giants win 8-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 90 Game Score

* 1996-04-06 - MrkLeiter, away vs FLA, Giants lose 1-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, 85 Game Score

Hmmm ... we've averaged about three 83+ game scores per year in the past thirteen years, but we haven't seen one yet this year (highest so far this year - 79, Sanchez, 2008-04-25, at home vs CIN). I'd guess with our current rotation, we'll see some more GSs in the 80s before the year is out ...

We have however seen a GS of 9 from Matt Cain in April. Here are all the nineteen worst starts by Giants pitchers, i.e. GS < 10, from the past thirteen years (one of them ugggghhh being Russ Ortiz, game two of the 2002 WS) :

* 2008-04-18 - Cain, away vs STL, Giants lose 11-1 - 3.2 IP, 8 H, 9 R, 9 ER, 3 BB, 4 K, 2 HR, 80 Pitches, 9 Game Score

* 2006-09-22 - Sanchez, away vs MIL, Giants lose 13-12 - 2.0 IP, 8 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 2 BB, 3 K, 0 HR, 65 Pitches, 9 Game Score

* 2006-09-21 - Morris, away vs MIL, Giants lose 9-4 - 4.1 IP, 9 H, 9 R, 9 ER, 3 BB, 2 K, 1 HR, 77 Pitches, 7 Game Score

* 2006-09-18 - Lowry, away vs COL, Giants lose 20-8 - 1.1 IP, 9 H, 9 R, 9 ER, 2 BB, 0 K, 2 HR, 45 Pitches, -3 Game Score

* 2005-08-09 - Hennessey, away vs ATL, Giants lose 7-1 - 2.2 IP, 9 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 4 BB, 2 K, 0 HR, 81 Pitches, 9 Game Score

* 2005-07-23 - Hennessey, at Hm vs FLA, Giants lose 16-4 - 4.1 IP, 9 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 4 BB, 1 K, 2 HR, 88 Pitches, 9 Game Score

* 2004-04-30 - Correia, at Hm vs FLA, Giants win 12-9 - 2.0 IP, 6 H, 9 R, 8 ER, 3 BB, 0 K, 1 HR, 59 Pitches, 7 Game Score

* 2003-07-03 - Rueter, away vs STL, Giants lose 9-5 - 3.0 IP, 9 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 2 BB, 1 K, 3 HR, 86 Pitches, 8 Game Score

* 2003-04-09 - RyJensen, at Hm vs SD, Giants win 15-11 - 2.0 IP, 7 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 2 BB, 0 K, 2 HR, 61 Pitches, 8 Game Score

* 2002-10-20 - RuOrtiz, away vs ANA, Giants lose 11-10 - 1.1 IP, 9 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 0 BB, 0 K, 1 HR, 47 Pitches, 7 Game Score

* 2002-07-26 - RuOrtiz, at Hm vs LA, Giants lose 11-6 - 2.0 IP, 7 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 4 BB, 0 K, 0 HR, 58 Pitches, 6 Game Score

* 2002-06-18 - LiHernandez, at Hm vs TB, Giants lose 8-3 - 2.1 IP, 10 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 2 BB, 2 K, 2 HR, 72 Pitches, 8 Game Score

* 2002-04-27 - RyJensen, away vs CIN, Giants lose 8-4 - 2.1 IP, 7 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 3 BB, 1 K, 2 HR, 56 Pitches, 8 Game Score

* 2001-06-03 - Gardner, away vs COL, Giants lose 11-2 - 3.1 IP, 11 H, 9 R, 9 ER, 0 BB, 2 K, 2 HR, 93 Pitches, 3 Game Score

* 2001-05-06 - Rueter, away vs PHI, Giants lose 10-8 - 1.0 IP, 6 H, 8 R, 7 ER, 4 BB, 0 K, 1 HR, 52 Pitches, 7 Game Score

* 2000-05-12 - Nathan, away vs COL, Giants lose 15-7 - 2.1 IP, 9 H, 12 R, 10 ER, 4 BB, 3 K, 2 HR, 87 Pitches, -7 Game Score

* 1999-06-15 - Brock, away vs COL, Giants lose 15-6 - 3.1 IP, 10 H, 9 R, 8 ER, 3 BB, 0 K, 2 HR, 65 Pitches, 2 Game Score

* 1998-05-23 - Darwin, away vs STL, Giants lose 11-10 - 1.1 IP, 7 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 3 BB, 0 K, 1 HR, 43 Pitches, 8 Game Score

* 1998-05-13 - Gardner, at Hm vs MON, Giants lose 9-5 - 2.1 IP, 11 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 0 BB, 0 K, 4 HR, 54 Pitches, 2 Game Score

And here are the ten lucky f*ckers who got a GS under 20, but the GMen still won the game:

* 2005-09-23 - Kinney, away vs COL, Giants win 7-6 - 2.1 IP, 8 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 1 BB, 0 K, 2 HR, 53 Pitches, 15 Game Score

* 2005-08-16 - Schmidt, away vs CIN, Giants win 10-8 - 3.2 IP, 8 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 4 BB, 4 K, 2 HR, 91 Pitches, 16 Game Score

* 2004-05-02 - Rueter, at Hm vs FLA, Giants win 9-8 - 4.1 IP, 8 H, 7 R, 6 ER, 4 BB, 2 K, 0 HR, 95 Pitches, 19 Game Score

* 2004-04-30 - Correia, at Hm vs FLA, Giants win 12-9 - 2.0 IP, 6 H, 9 R, 8 ER, 3 BB, 0 K, 1 HR, 59 Pitches, 7 Game Score

* 2003-04-09 - RyJensen, at Hm vs SD, Giants win 15-11 - 2.0 IP, 7 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 2 BB, 0 K, 2 HR, 61 Pitches, 8 Game Score

* 1999-07-06 - Estes, away vs SD, Giants win 10-9 - 5.0 IP, 11 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 3 BB, 3 K, 2 HR, 92 Pitches, 17 Game Score (Estes actually gets the W)

* 1999-06-20 - Brock, at Hm vs CHC, Giants win 7-6 - 3.0 IP, 8 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 3 BB, 2 K, 1 HR, 84 Pitches, 18 Game Score

* 1999-06-12 - Rueter, away vs SEA, Giants win 15-11 - 5.1 IP, 10 H, 8 R, 8 ER, 2 BB, 2 K, 1 HR, 107 Pitches, 15 Game Score (Woody actually gets the W)

* 1999-04-06 - Rueter, away vs CIN, Giants win 7-6 - 1.1 IP, 8 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 2 BB, 1 K, 2 HR, 63 Pitches, 12 Game Score

* 1998-04-26 - Gardner, at Hm vs MIL, Giants win 8-7 - 2.0 IP, 9 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 1 BB, 1 K, 2 HR, 58 Pitches, 14 Game Score

And here are the heartbreakers that get the "Matt Cain 2007 Award" winners, dudes who mowed down the opposition, GS of 77 or higher, but bullpen meltdowns and poor run support meant we still lost :

* 2007-04-17 - Cain, away vs COL, Giants lose 5-3 - 7.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 3 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, 110 Pitches, 77 Game Score

* 2006-08-13 - Schmidt, away vs LAD, Giants lose 1-0 - 8.0 IP, 5 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 9 K, 0 HR, 115 Pitches, 80 Game Score

* 2006-08-05 - Lowry, at Hm vs COL, Giants lose 2-1 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 2 BB, 6 K, 0 HR, 121 Pitches, 79 Game Score

* 2004-07-06 - Schmidt, at Hm vs COL, Giants lose 8-6 - 7.0 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 5 BB, 12 K, 1 HR, 116 Pitches, 78 Game Score

* 2004-06-29 - Lowry, away vs LA, Giants lose 2-1 - 7.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 9 K, 1 HR, 88 Pitches, 77 Game Score

* 2001-08-17 - LiHernandez, at Hm vs ATL, Giants lose 2-1 - 9.0 IP, 2 H, 2 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 5 K, 0 HR, 114 Pitches, 79 Game Score (Livan actually gets the loss)

* 1999-07-25 - Estes, at Hm vs CIN, Giants lose 2-1 - 8.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 2 BB, 8 K, 1 HR, 128 Pitches, 78 Game Score

* 1998-09-20 - Estes, at Hm vs LA, Giants lose 1-0 - 8.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 10 K, 1 HR, 114 Pitches, 83 Game Score (Estes actually gets the loss)

* 1998-06-15 - Estes, at Hm vs COL, Giants lose 4-3 - 9.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 11 K, 0 HR, 115 Pitches, 85 Game Score

* 1996-04-06 - MrkLeiter, away vs FLA, Giants lose 1-0 - 9.0 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 7 K, 0 HR, Pitches, 85 Game Score

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Comments

I was at Lincecum’s start vs. Arizona with the GS of 83. That was fun.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Jun 9, 2008 7:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow. That's some fine work.

It looks like the “Matt Cain Award” should be the “Shawn Estes Award” huh?

BTW, I’ll always love William VanLandingham and Shawn Estes. Until recent years, Giants players barely ever lived in the City. In 1989, there was one… Oakland A. Bob Welch lived in San Francisco. Other guys thought he was weird because he was, you know, literate and cosmopolitan.

VanLandingham was actually a pretty cool indie rock kinda guy and lived a few blocks from me in Russian Hill when I lived in Nob Hill. Then Estes took over Vandy’s apartment when he came up. Sweet.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 9, 2008 8:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Wow, that’s rough. Throw an 8 inning 2 hitter against the Dodgers and take the loss.

by paboperfecto on Jun 10, 2008 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly

this is precisely why I got sick of people going on about the Giants lack of run support for Cain last year. Sure, he probably deserved to win about 3 more games, but unless you pitch 8 or 9 shutdown innings regularly, you just can’t “expect” to win.

Anyway, I too am a gamescore junkie – though not to this extent! – so I love this post.

by BigO on Jun 10, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

More on Van Landingham

Yeah, I remember seeing Van Landingham at the Bottom of the Hill at a Yo La Tengo show in 1997. He had pitched that very day in a day game matchup at Candlestick—it was the losing end of Kevin Brown’s no hitter (Van Landingham actually had a no hitter going through a couple innings of that game as well). Quite a day of entertainment!

Oh, and awesome work on the stats. Brings back some great memories.

by Duelling Brandos on Jun 11, 2008 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Danke schoen!

by SnowLeopard on Jun 11, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

this is the game I’m referring to, by the way. Van Landy had a no-hitter through 6 1/3, although he was already down 1-0 before the homer (first hit of the game on either side) ran him out of the game. (Brown’s only baserunner if I remember was Benard, whose uniform was barely grazed by a pitch—even Giants fans were upset with this, which came late in the game.)

by Duelling Brandos on Jun 11, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awesome post, I love it.

This made me laugh

* 1998-05-23 – Darwin, away vs STL, Giants lose 11-10 – 1.1 IP, 7 H, 7 R, 7 ER, 3 BB, 0 K, 1 HR, 43 Pitches, 8 Game Score

Danny Darwin was old as hell when we got him in ‘97. It’s amazing that he threw 148.7 innings in ‘98. His last year in baseball, like many, in a Giants uniform.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 8:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Amazingly serviceable Darwin

A No. 5 starter for the Giants in 97-98. When his age was 41-42.

He was a throw-in as part of a summer deadline deal to solidy the Giants’ chances for the division crown in Sabean’s first season as GM in ‘97.

The Giants obtained potential “ace” Wilson Alvarez and flamethrowing setup man/closer Roberto Hernandez, as well as Darwin. Both Alvarez and Hernandez contributed but were lost to free agency at the end of the season. So the most enduring piece of the trade was Darwin.

Who did the Giants give up? Only future All-Star and bullpen ace Keith Foulke…

by Moggeee on Jun 10, 2008 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bobby Howry has been serviceable at times, too.

Only 907 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Jun 12, 2008 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

God Damn..

did Schmidt ever rack up the pitch counts, criminal use of a great arm. At least he fell apart on the Dodgers watch.

by AngelWillSaveUs on Jun 9, 2008 8:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

You Are Correct, Sir

Only “innings-muncher” Livan averaged more pitches per start.

And I also I continue to dispute Bochy’s habit of throwing Young Master Cain out there for so many pitches per start …

(don’t have pitch per start info for 96, so those starts are dropped from this chart)

—-- --— AvgPitch —-- STDPitch --— NoStarts
LiHernandez —-- 108.7 --— 20.6 —-- 115
Schmidt --— 107.9 —-- 13.1 --— 166
Alvarez —-- 107.3 --— 14.3 —-- 12
RuOrtiz --— 105.6 —-- 17.9 --— 159
Cain —-- 104.4 --— 11.6 —-- 84
Estes --— 102.2 —-- 18.3 --— 148
Lowry —-- 100.6 --— 16.3 —-- 100
Tomko --— 100.5 —-- 15.5 --— 60
Lincecum —-- 100.4 --— 11.4 —-- 38
Zito --— 100.1 —-- 13.0 --— 48
Nathan —-- 99.4 --— 22.4 —-- 28
Morris --— 99.3 —-- 18.1 --— 54
Gardner —-- 98.5 --— 18.7 —-- 120
Brock --— 98.5 —-- 17.3 --— 19
Wright —-- 98.2 --— 13.9 —-- 21
Rueter --— 95.4 —-- 15.4 --— 280
Ainsworth —-- 94.4 --— 9.2 —-- 15
Sanchez --— 94.4 —-- 17.7 --— 22
Foppert —-- 94.1 --— 16.5 —-- 23
Ponson --— 94.0 —-- 14.9 --— 11
Moss —-- 92.8 --— 15.4 —-- 20
Hershiser --— 92.6 —-- 14.0 --— 34
Williams —-- 92.4 --— 17.0 —-- 47
Hermanson --— 91.9 —-- 12.7 --— 24
Hennessey —-- 88.8 --— 18.5 —-- 40
VanLandingham --— 88.6 —-- 19.8 --— 17
Misch —-- 87.6 --— 13.1 —-- 10
FernandezOs --— 87.4 —-- 17.5 --— 11
Jensen —-- 87.3 --— 18.9 —-- 40
Darwin --— 85.8 —-- 14.6 --— 32
Correia —-- 81.9 --— 23.3 —-- 32
--— —-- --— —-- --— —-- --—
Grand Total —-- 99.3 --— 17.7 ——- 1830

by SnowLeopard on Jun 9, 2008 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

RE: Cain

If I’m reading that right, with the low standard deviation, Cain’s pitch counts are more consistantly around his average (104) than Livan. Is that right? If so, I’m not as upset as I would be if he were regularly having games where he went way over his pitch average. It’s my belief (mostly gut feeling without true evidence to back it up) that it is those type of starts (e.g. 144 pitches for Schmidt) that really cause the arm troubles.

by AngelWillSaveUs on Jun 10, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is that right?

As Lord Vader put it, “YOU ARE CORRECT!!”

FWIW, here are Cain’s MLB SFG pitch counts :

70, 77, 80, 84, 84, 87, 87, 89, 89, 90, 91, 91, 92, 93, 93, 93, 94, 95, 95, 95, 96, 96, 97, 97, 98, 98, 98, 98, 99, 99, 101, 102, 103, 103, 104, 104, 104, 105, 105, 105, 105, 105, 106, 107, 107, 108, 108, 108, 109, 109, 110, 110, 110, 110, 110, 112, 112, 112, 112, 112, 112, 113, 113, 113, 113, 114, 114, 114, 114, 115, 115, 115, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 119, 120, 120, 121, 123, 124, 131

Cain is currently #34 on the Baseball Prospectus pitcher abuse point chart (Timmy is a Bochy-cursing #8). But Cain did finish last year at a Bochy-cursing #8 on their list at the end of last year … “

It’s kinda infuriating. As John Perricone rails about it pretty articulately : he says, “There is no reason this team should be abusing Lincecum. I’ll say it again, Bochy’s only job [this season] is to make sure Cain and Lincecum and the rest of these young pitchers don’t get injured. Anything he and Righetti do that jeopardizes the health of their young pitchers should be a fire-able offense. Allowing Lincecum to go past 100-110 pitches is criminally stupid and careless. Why wouldn’t you want to err on the side of caution?” (I recommend reading the whole second link, if not the first also …)

by SnowLeopard on Jun 10, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Timmy is a Bochy-cursing #8"

Disclaimer-I haven’t read those links yet but I will.

I’m mostly fine with how Tim has been used. I think baseball as a whole has gotten much better about how they use pitchers, especially young ones. The thing about PAP, like all set of rankings, is someone is going to be near the top. What is important is where the top is. Here are two quick comparisons that I hope articulate what I’m saying (I’m at work so will probably need to go into this more later). I pick 2003 at random to compare with this year.

In 2003, Mark Prior led the league with 113 pitches averaged per start. Lincecum comes in at about 103 per game, which is 16th this year and would be around 24th in 2003.

In 2003, Kerry Wood lead the league with an astronomical 8,107 (you read that right) average PAP. Lincecum comes in at 1829, which is 7th this year but wouldn’t even put him in the top 30 (!) in 2003. (the league leader this year is Gil Meche with 3122).

The point is, yes, Tim is near the top. But baseball has gotten much better at how they treat their starting pitchers over the past few years and the top isn’t what it used to be.

by AngelWillSaveUs on Jun 10, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re : Schmidt

Also from Perricone’s rant : “(The Giants) signed Felipe Alou after they decided that Dusty Baker was too good, and taking away too much credit from them. At the time, I thought he was the best of the known choices, but in hindsight; it’s clear that Alou cost the Giants dearly. He destroyed the careers of Kirk Reuter, Jesse Foppert, Kurt Ainsworth, Jerome Williams, and Jason Schmidt. Schmidt was probably the most costly. Schmidt’s never been the same after that 143-pitch, 17-strikeout, 1-hitter in May of 2004. That month, Schmidt started 5 games, went 47 innings, allowed 23 hits, had 54 strikeouts, and a 1.53 ERA. Since then, he’s had a monthly ERA below 3.00 just one single time, and he’s been on and off the DL constantly. What Alou did to Reuter beggars belief. Everyone in baseball knew that Woody was a 100-pitch pitcher. Everyone. Everyone on the Giants did, too. Krukow talked about it all the time. Alou let him go 110-plus four times in the first half of ‘04, including his second start of the season. During that stretch, Sabean was putting the final touches on Woody’s $18 million dollar extension –one that he wasn’t even up for, by the way– and when the dust settled, we had another player being paid millions of dollars to watch TV.”

by SnowLeopard on Jun 10, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m kind of a pitch-count nazi myself, but come on. Rueter was a fringe pitcher all along; you should get everything out of those guys you can. The extension was Sabean’s mistake, not Felipe’s. Foppert apparently got hurt before he ever reached SF. Ainsworth broke down thanks to some freak injury, didn’t he? Williams just never developed. Schmidt did burn out, but that happens to every pitcher sooner or later. Correlation ain’t always causation.

by Evan on Jun 11, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well

Accepting your version of events, I think that what you say about Ainsworth, Williams, and Schmidt is still consistent with what Perricone says …

by SnowLeopard on Jun 11, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I remember watching that Matt Morris game. Probably the most surprising of the bunch.

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by Natto on Jun 9, 2008 10:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Matt Cain had a GS of 70 in his 1-0 loss to the Red Sox last year, given the opponent and that it was at Fenway, it felt more like a 90.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Jun 10, 2008 9:50 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Best pitching duel of 2007 IMO vs. Dice-K.

Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on Jun 10, 2008 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cain's Had

Nineteen games with a game score of 55 or higher but where the Giants lost the game :

2008-05-30 – Cain, at hm vs SD, Giants lose 7-3, 7.0 IP, 7 H, 0 HR, 3 R, 3 ER, 1 BB, 6 K, 103 Pitches, 56 Game Score
2008-05-25 – Cain, away vs FLA, Giants lose 5-4, 6.0 IP, 5 H, 1 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 2 BB, 6 K, 98 Pitches, 58 Game Score, Cain actually taked the loss
2008-04-12 – Cain, at hm vs STL, Giants lose 8-7, 6.2 IP, 3 H, 0 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 3 BB, 5 K, 95 Pitches, 61 Game Score, Cain actually taked the loss
2008-04-01 – Cain, away vs LAD, Giants lose 3-2, 6.2 IP, 3 H, 0 HR, 0 R, 0 ER, 4 BB, 5 K, 114 Pitches, 68 Game Score
2007-09-25 – Cain, at hm vs SD, Giants lose 6-4, 7.0 IP, 5 H, 2 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 8 K, 113 Pitches, 66 Game Score, Cain actually taked the loss
2007-09-15 – Cain, away vs SD, Giants lose 6-0, 6.0 IP, 1 H, 0 HR, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 6 K, 77 Pitches, 72 Game Score, Cain actually taked the loss
2007-08-13 – Cain, away vs PIT, Giants lose 3-1, 7.0 IP, 6 H, 0 HR, 3 R, 3 ER, 2 BB, 7 K, 105 Pitches, 58 Game Score
2007-08-03 – Cain, away vs SD, Giants lose 4-3, 7.1 IP, 5 H, 0 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 11 K, 112 Pitches, 69 Game Score
2007-06-27 – Cain, at hm vs SD, Giants lose 4-2, 7.2 IP, 7 H, 1 HR, 4 R, 2 ER, 2 BB, 7 K, 116 Pitches, 57 Game Score
2007-06-16 – Cain, away vs BOS, Giants lose 1-0, 7.0 IP, 3 H, 1 HR, 1 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 3 K, 112 Pitches, 69 Game Score, Cain actually taked the loss
2007-06-10 – Cain, at hm vs OAK, Giants lose 2-0, 8.0 IP, 5 H, 1 HR, 1 R, 1 ER, 3 BB, 8 K, 123 Pitches, 73 Game Score
2007-05-25 – Cain, at hm vs COL, Giants lose 5-3, 6.2 IP, 4 H, 0 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 4 BB, 5 K, 114 Pitches, 58 Game Score
2007-04-28 – Cain, away vs ARI, Giants lose 5-4, 6.0 IP, 1 H, 0 HR, 1 R, 1 ER, 4 BB, 2 K, 99 Pitches, 64 Game Score
2007-04-17 – Cain, away vs COL, Giants lose 5-3, 7.0 IP, 2 H, 0 HR, 0 R, 0 ER, 3 BB, 7 K, 110 Pitches, 77 Game Score
2007-04-09 – Cain, away vs SD, Giants lose 1-0, 7.0 IP, 1 H, 0 HR, 1 R, 1 ER, 5 BB, 4 K, 115 Pitches, 70 Game Score, Cain actually taked the loss
2007-04-04 – Cain, at hm vs SD, Giants lose 5-3, 6.0 IP, 5 H, 2 HR, 3 R, 3 ER, 1 BB, 6 K, 90 Pitches, 55 Game Score
2006-08-01 – Cain, at hm vs WAS, Giants lose 4-1, 7.0 IP, 4 H, 0 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 2 BB, 7 K, 110 Pitches, 66 Game Score Cain actually taked the loss
2006-07-16 – Cain, at hm vs PHI, Giants lose 6-2, 6.0 IP, 1 H, 0 HR, 1 R, 1 ER, 4 BB, 5 K, 105 Pitches, 67 Game Score
2006-07-01 – Cain, away vs SD, Giants lose 7-4, 6.0 IP, 3 H, 0 HR, 2 R, 2 ER, 4 BB, 11 K, 115 Pitches, 65 Game Score

by SnowLeopard on Jun 10, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is depressing.

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by Natto on Jun 10, 2008 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

as stupid as that whole “gamer” thing is, Cain’s gotta be a “gamer” (and have some “grit” and some “moxie”) to keep going out there and giving his all, after results like those …

(his mantra : “X years until free agency … millions of dollars and some real run support … X years until free agency … millions of dollars and some real run support … “)

by SnowLeopard on Jun 10, 2008 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs