Story Title
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 12:58 PM PDT
125 comments
Every team needs a whipping boy. Here are the origins of the term according to Wikipedia:
Hmm. That last part is odd, and certainly not something I would write, but it kind of fits. Tomko used to be a whipping boy for the Giants faithful. He was never the worst pitcher on the team, but there was just something about him. A certain je ne sais suck, if you will.
It would appear that this year’s whipping boy is Jose Castillo. He’s already earned the gamethread nickname of "Rally Killer", as his prowess for hitting into double plays is well established. But I can’t get on board with this one. We’ve all known third base was going to be a deep, dark hole since, oh, October. There were a ton of different scenarios out there:
a. Trade for a tough-luck former prospect like Andy Marte
b. Trade valuable trade chips (i.e. Jonathan Sanchez) for a young, controllable hitter like Edwin Encarnacion or Mark Teahen
c. Re-sign Pedro Feliz
d. Sign Mike Lowell to a five year, sesquillion dollar contract
e. Play a minor-league veteran like Justin Leone
f. Sign a low-risk, high-reward free agent like Dallas McPherson or Jorge Cantu
g. Just stick Rich Aurilia at the position and poke him with a stick between innings to wake him up
Those were the options. I was partial to "b.", hoping the Giants would trade Jonathan Sanchez for Edwin Encarnacion. I was a moron. The correct answer was "f." Jorge Cantu is doing well for the Marlins, and Dallas McPherson is raking for the Marlins’ AAA club.
I would include Jose Castillo in the same subcategory, though. Cantu had more of a big league track record, and McPherson had a better minor league track record, but Castillo had a few things going for him. His relative youth and his versatility were in his favor. The Pirates rushed him past AAA, so it wasn’t inconceivable that there was still some development left in him. He has a little pop, he’s only 27, and his defense was usually acceptable. Pedro Feliz without the defense, but free of charge.
So the Giants’ starting third baseman is under 30, cheap, and has flashed a little bit of extra-base ability. He isn’t perfect, but he isn’t Andy Marte (.152/.188/.174 in 2008) or Edwin Encarnacion (almost the same player as Castillo this year, except we would have paid through the nose in a trade). He isn’t an overpaid Mike Lowell, and he isn’t a futureless 30-something minor leaguer.
He is who we thought he was. If you want to crown…you get the idea. This team has roster problems going forward, but Castillo isn’t the biggest. If you told anyone on this site in November that the Giants would have a 27-year-old third baseman hitting .260/.314/.438 in June, they might have popped a bottle of champagne. We knew the position was going to be a gaping hole. The Giants filled it with a player who gives them something like a 5% chance of continued success. That might have been the best-case scenario from this offseason. I’m not pleased that the front office put the Giants in this position in the first place, but that doesn’t qualify Castillo for whipping-boy status.
My conclusion: A picture is worth 1,000 words. Leave Castillo alone. Pick on someone else, you jackals.
Note: I reserve the right to pretend I never wrote this if Castillo hits .005/.005/.010 for June.
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You wrote this very post to drive me insane, didn’t you?
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
As long as C wasn't the answer
I was pretty much going to be happy with anything, barring some ridiculously stupid trade.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on Jun 9, 2008 1:03 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
For the price...
Castillo is like finding something really sweet at Ross or Marshalls that would have been 4x the price at a good store. Just keep in mind it’s probably got a stitching issue or something..
Down in Front Meat!
by homerdrew415 on Jun 9, 2008 1:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Just keep in mind it’s probably got a stitching issue or something..
Or has a flesh eating parasite woven into the fabric.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh man...either that was frackin hilarious or I'm in dire need of my pizza to get delivered..
Down in Front Meat!
by homerdrew415 on Jun 9, 2008 1:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 9, 2008 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree with this!
It has always baffled me why people hated Castillo so much.
A player like Castillo doesn’t hurt a re-building team, he is a replacement level player who gets paid like a replacement level player. What hurts a re-building team is committing more money and more than years that a player is worth. I am glad that we got a cheap guy off the scrap heap rather than going with some of the other options you mentioned.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 9, 2008 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What hurts a re-building team is committing more money and more than years that a player is worth.
Sooo….Zito?
I am glad that we got a cheap guy off the scrap heap rather than going with some of the other options you mentioned.
You’re making me and Justin very sad here.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Leone gets a little bit hosed, but I don’t think his future is as anything but a backup. I mean, he is hitting .230 in Fresno right now.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Leone and would have preferred him, but I’m still convinced that the only reason the Giants picked up Castillo in the first place was because they had some idea that he could field time at short stop occasionally, forgetting that he was never a good defensive second baseman.
He’s bad at third but I can’t imagine him at short. Leone’s stats are a little down this year but he’s still walking and hitting for a little power. After his season last year, I would have thought he would have been first in line for a 3B opening.
His problem this year is that his LD% has dropped a bunch - down to 11% - and he’s a little bit unlucky on the BABIP side of things. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him end the year with numbers closer to his ‘07 showing. Something like a .265/.390/.500.
I guess my fear with Castillo is that the Giants will use him way longer than they should.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what would you have done?
Personally, I am ambivalent regarding Castillo. I know he is not the long term option, and he is cheap. Meanwhile he is putting up decent offensive numbers.
BTW, I don’t know how it is possible to really quantify defense. Castillo has 7 errors which is the highest number on the team, but I watched at least two of those errors which were balls he just couldn’t quite reach, which were IN FRONT of Vizquel. So he showed some range, and got the E. Since range is so important in defensive stats and yet unquantifiable statistically, it is basically impossible to really compare one position player to another unless he is a complete out lier like Vizquel. So saying a player is bad defensively is basically subjective.
I was ambivalent about the Crede for Sanchez/Lowry rumors during the off-season and now am VERY happy we did not pull that trigger. And I am happy we don’t have to endure Petey rolling over on a slider, or just flat rally killing via the strike out.
In a few years it will be a Castillo will be a trivia question. “Who played 3rd after Feliz left, and before Gillaspie?” But for now he will do.
I’m beginning to not be a big fan of being overly critical of this current team. They have faults, but we already knew that. But that are also pretty entertaining, especially when they are playing the good teams tough and beating up the bad ones, except Pittsburg.
by toofruss on Jun 9, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castillo will be a trivia question?
I’m shooting my editor as I type.
by toofruss on Jun 9, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW, I don’t know how it is possible to really quantify defense.
It’s possible. Defensive starts are evolving and getting better all the time. RZR for example creates zones that players are responsible for, that’s super basic explanation. Read the glossary if you need something more.
Since range is so important in defensive stats and yet unquantifiable statistically
Range is definitely quantifiable by RZR because it splits the field into zones. They even have a stat called OOZ, out of zone plays, that shows you how many plays a player made outside of his assigned zone, indicating that the player has good range or at least nice positioning.
So saying a player is bad defensively is basically subjective.
No, it’s really not. Tell me why it’s subjective when a metric holds everyone to the same method of analysis?
I’m beginning to not be a big fan of being overly critical of this current team.
I’m not being overly critical, if saying “Jose Castillo isn’t good at baseball” is overly critical for you, I don’t know what to tell you.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, what would you have done?
Range is definitely quantifiable by RZR because it splits the field into zones
Sure this can be done, but this still doesn’t take into consideration situations bla bla bla… This is nice, but still insufficient for splitting hairs between average fielders.
No, it’s really not. Tell me why it’s subjective when a metric holds everyone to the same method of analysis?
Because the metric is basically flawed due to the nature of the game. One situation a 3rd baseman is guarding the line, the next he is guarding the hole, the next he is on the grass for a bunt or the force at home. So unless you have a statistician tracking all of these variables, and creating stats to account for them, which he or she could only make assumptions about anyway, then the entire concept of fielding stats is flawed for the large group of average players. Only the out liers can be said to be good or bad.
You managed to avoid the question entirely, what would you have done? It is easy to cast stones.
by toofruss on Jun 9, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the metric is basically flawed due to the nature of the game. One situation a 3rd baseman is guarding the line, the next he is guarding the hole, the next he is on the grass for a bunt or the force at home.
Have you ever read about Zone Rating? I’m not trying to be mean but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about.
From THT’s page on Zone Rating:
There were about 71,500 balls hits into zones last year (not including pitchers’ zones), out of the 133,200 batted balls I mentioned before. That’s partly because certain types of batted balls are excluded. Zone Rating doesn’t include bunts, for instance, or infield flies. For infielders, Zone Rating only includes ground balls that travel at least 69 feet (for middle infielders) or 59 feet (for corner infielders). And many batted balls don’t fall into the “50% zones” at all.
Zone rating does not include bunts and sets a limit on how far a ball must travel before it’s going to accept it. Zones are defined as areas in which 50% of balls in play are turned into outs. It’s only comparing fielders against balls that 50% of other fielders have turned into outs, creating a measuring stick to measure everyone against. RZR doesn’t care if your 3B can’t turn a ball into an out that no one else can turn into an out.
You managed to avoid the question entirely, what would you have done? It is easy to cast stones.
I’ve not cast any stones and why would I? I’m just trying to respond to your comments.
If you mean what would have I done with 3B situation? I would have traded Tim Lincecum for Joe Crede.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll agree to look at it and be open to changing my mind.
Would you still make that trade now?
by toofruss on Jun 9, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes exactly like Zito
how could would it have tasted to chase the awful Zito with an almost as awful Mike Lowell contract?
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 9, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
did they ban you?
they banned me for a year for undeleting someone’s hilarious add to the FP page…
by slojoe on Jun 9, 2008 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ll find more entertaining stuff on his myspace.
Like him feeling down on Byrnes:
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 9, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s guy love between two guys.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 9, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good ole’ Vanilla and Super Chocolate Bears….
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Jun 9, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you know FP played baseball? Just like Byrnes does!
by Natto on Jun 9, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He did?
I remember him saying Sakata right hand man this, San Jose Giants coach that.
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 9, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
holy douchebaggery
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 9, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, you made that supposed F.P. myspace page right?
if so, good job, that is fucking hillarious
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 9, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
man, that is amazing
that is better than any parody one could make.
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 9, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not logged in...posting from work = no ban
I really am a supporter of Wikipedia, and I think that what I did was juvenile, but it made my post funnier. I regret nothing.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I like Castillo as a player as it seems he’s always trying hard and we aren’t paying a ton. What I don’t like his him batting 2nd….wtf Bochy
Bill Mueller? I expect at least A-Rod type numbers from my son, Conor Gillaspie
by Gamer101 on Jun 9, 2008 1:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's All Relative(TM)!
What does $650,000 buy you?
a) a one-bedroom cottage in Bernal Heights
b) Between 7.5 and 10 innings of Barry Zito pitching
c) a not-old 3rd baseman with adequate defense and an adequate bat who is NOT BLOCKING ANY CURRENT YOUNG GIANTS PROSPECT† for a team that is NOT CONTENDING THIS YEAR‡
† Not even Nate Schierholtz, groug.
‡ Mr. Sabean, please avert you eyes from the “Games Behind” column of the standings.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on Jun 9, 2008 1:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
c) a not-old 3rd baseman with adequate defense and an adequate bat who is NOT BLOCKING ANY
He’s one of the worst fielding third basemen in the majors and he’s never, ever been adequate with the bat.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s actually climbed the chart some, defensively, so he’s no longer “Cantu Bad” but he’s still very weak and I’d never think of calling him adequate at third.
I’ll be interested in seeing his UZR’s when they come out.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s one of the worst fielding third basemen in the majors
That surprises me. Where do you get defensive stats for 2008?
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I accidentally replied to you down below. See comment.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like my comment dissapeared or something
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mine was eaten too. Weird.
My comment was along the lines of: Kouzmanoff over Zimmerman? There are sample-size shenanigans going on with RZR, or it’s still a work in progress.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the smaller the sample size the less you can draw from, so as the season goes along, the players will move up and down the RZR board. And the results should become more valid and reliable.
But Castillo is a 2B playing out of position and you can look at his RZR from his time at 2B, and he was at the bottom of the rankings. Therefore, I’m thinking he’s going to be at the bottom of the ranks for 3B.
For example, in 2006 Castilo was the 2nd to last worst 2B in the NL. Only Jose Vidro was worse at the position. Jose Vidro who’s now a DH and not because he can hit.
He was middle of the pack in ‘04 and ‘05 but terrible in ‘06. I think he’ll end up as a below-average 3B this year defensively.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh, his wiki page was raving about Castillo and Jack Wilson
being a great double-play combo….must be edited by a relative or something
by slojoe on Jun 9, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ray Durham well above Orlando Hudson?
Pass. I mean, I read the intro to RZR, and it makes sense, but I’m going to have to fall back on my default position on defensive stats: one season isn’t enough of a sample, and I don’t trust ‘em.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not that outlandish, Durham was once a decent defender. Plus, RZR isn’t THE defensive stat but it’s the one I’ll use in-season because it’s constantly updated. I’d recommend you use a variety of them to form an opinion on a player, UZR, Pinto’s stuff, The Fielding Bible, RZR, all of them have merit.
But to just point at one season and say “Durham’s better than Hudson, no thanks!” is silly.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Fielding Bible had Hudson as a +11 2B in ‘06, I’m not sure what Durham’s rating is because it’s not listed. From 04-06 he was also highly rated.
http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/charts/2006plus-minus.gif
See my point about using more than one metric.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d recommend you use a variety of them to form an opinion on a player, UZR, Pinto’s stuff, The Fielding Bible, RZR, all of them have merit.
Absolutely. But that’s what kills me about defensive stats for a single year, much less two months. Pinto will disagree about a player with Dewan, who disagrees with Dial, who disagrees with James. You’ll start to see that some players are agreed upon in all of the systems (like Feliz), but there are still huge differences in some evaluations. Therefore, I will never feel comfortable forming an opinion based on just one of the fielding stats for a season. And I will almost completely ignore two months worth of data in any fielding stat, just as I would with park factors.
It’s not that outlandish, Durham was once a decent defender.
But this is 2006, not the distant past. Durham didn’t look good to the naked eye. Is it possible that I underrated him? Absolutely. Is it possible that he was better than Hudson, who is usually one of the premiere second base defenders in the league? I can’t buy that. But luckily for me, Dewan’s numbers concur, so I’m back to not trusting RZR for single-season evaluations.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder what all this stat crap means
to the aging fielder who knows his time is near.
Who has , for years , focused primarily on the physical aspects of thye game…
...probably not much.Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on Jun 9, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
to the aging fielder who knows his time is near.
Good for him we’ll probably sign him for a 2-year $8M contract.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pinto will disagree about a player with Dewan, who disagrees with Dial, who disagrees with James. You’ll start to see that some players are agreed upon in all of the systems (like Feliz), but there are still huge differences in some evaluations.
I think that’s a little bit of an exaggeration. Only a few players are widely disagreed upon or break systems, like Manny in Boston is always dinged more harshly than he should because of the weird LF dimensions in Fenway. Generally, I’ve found that if you’re a good defender, most systems agree on it. And vice versa.
But this is 2006, not the distant past. Durham didn’t look good to the naked eye. Is it possible that I underrated him? Absolutely. Is it possible that he was better than Hudson, who is usually one of the premiere second base defenders in the league? I can’t buy that.
So, RZR didn’t like Hudson that year, I still say it’s no reason to toss the system out.
You’re right that doing in-season analysis on defense isn’t the best because of a small sample size issue.
And you’re right using your eye to solely judge defense is tricky. It’s like when Yankee fans will tell you how great a defender Jeter is because he LOOKS good with he does that jumping throw from the hole. Just don’t mind the balls that shoot past him to his left. Thats why using your eyes can be bad, you get selective and remember the amazing plays and forget the bad ones. Thats why I like fielding stats, they stripe away that, to an extent.
They aren’t perfect but it’s a heckuva lot better than just using your eyelids.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only a few players are widely disagreed upon or break systems, like Manny in Boston is always dinged more harshly than he should because of the weird LF dimensions in Fenway.
I didn’t mean to imply that the systems could have Vizquel as the worst defender according to one metric and the best according to another. And I can’t really do research right now, so this will have the stink of anecdote upon it, but there seems to be a nebulous glob that stretches from below-average to above-average, and players freely roam within the glob from one season to the next, and from one metric to the next. That’s why I’m wary of putting my full faith into defensive stats, though I will agree that over an extended period they are a huge improvement over the naked eye.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s easy to forget how small the samples are. Last year, an average everyday third baseman had around 320 balls hit into his zone according to the RZR system. So the fielding sample size is about equivalent to half a season’s hitting sample size. I think you need two seasons’ worth of data at a minimum (and general agreement among the systems) before you can have any confidence at all in the rating.
Castillo has played mostly second, but over the years he has accumulated 1052 balls in zone, and every system I know of has scored him as consistently bad. The evidence is getting close to dispositive.
That said, he still looks to me like he has the tools to be a solid third basemen, so maybe it will come in time.
by Evan on Jun 9, 2008 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And AVG and IsoOBP and OPS all disagree on Nate Schierholtz. AVG says he’s great and IsoOBP says he sucks and OPS says he’s good but not great. That’s why you should look at more than one stat. Same with fielding metrics. At least that’s how I see it.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jun 10, 2008 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The difference is that average is almost entirely useless on its own, IsoOBP helps evaluate the sustainability of a player going forward, and OPS is a quick and dirty evaluation of the player’s current performance. They all clearly have different uses. Defensive metrics are all purporting to tell you the same thing.
Actually, that’s exactly why all of the stats in my posts are in .300/.400/.500 format. You get all of those hitting sstats (and more!) in one.
by Grant on Jun 10, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By adequate
I didn’t mean “good”, I meant “mediocre but better than our current second baseman has been the last few weeks.” Yes, the bar has been set very low for me.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on Jun 9, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better defensively than Durham, not offensively.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on Jun 9, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
its all pretty much irrelevant unless some of the McC wanted them
to be competitive in 2008….Sabean had the option to trade for or sign a better 3B and chose not to…maybe there was nothing out there reasonable, and although i wanted them to sign McPherson hes probably not the answer either….
i dont really care if they have a few stooges out there as long as Lewis, Bowker, etc. get the chance to develop
by slojoe on Jun 9, 2008 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate that.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Jun 9, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t mind Castillo considering what the Giants got for him.
The automatic GIDP’s & the double pump throw to 1st just kill me, though.
I consider him a Band-Aid until a 3rd base answer emerges.
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 9, 2008 1:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh
And Tomko can suck it.
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 9, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t worry about it, Grant. All I said of Castillo was that I was weary of his dopey Vizcaino-like visage and lame bat.\
I’d be happy to focus all of my venom on Zito, if you like.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 9, 2008 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
he hasn't been that bad
considering what we’re paying him and how we got him, it is correct to say that he’s performing alright. But its been only 2.1 months. Considering his age, I wouldn’t mind seeing him stick around for another year or two, but I wouldn’t pay very much to keep him, if, at the end of the year, he has performed at his current level for the entire season.
I also agree that he should not be hitting 2nd in any lineup. He should be hitting 6th or lower.
But in the end, and as I’ve stated before. I don’t worry too much about Castillo because when the Giants are good again, he won’t be on the team.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 9, 2008 1:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m still not on board. Put this list together with this list and what have you got? Not the worst third baseman in the game - Mike Lamb has that one sewn up - but damn close to it.
by Evan on Jun 9, 2008 1:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
that's about right..
..except you left off salary. Castillo is producing about the way Feliz is and always used to, though more with the stick and a less with the glove. Feliz costs $4M, which is roughly market value, Castillo costs less than $1M. Nobody thinks Castillo is more than a stopgap, unless he suddenly starts hitting like Wright or defending like Rolen, but he sure is a better solution that the usual Sabean idiocy.
His glove is pretty ugly out there, though. This guy used to play short?
by wcw on Jun 9, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not a better solution, he’s just a cheaper solution. Which is fine, I guess. Signing him up was a good idea. But you have to pick up two or three such players (as Florida did) to have good odds of getting any more than replacement level play.
by Evan on Jun 9, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a little hard to accept the efficacy of a measurement or evaluative system that has Aurilia (OPS 744), Beltre (745), Encarnacion (749), Blake (732), Scutaro (702), Gordon (726), Bautista (722), Zimmerman (718), And Kouzmanoff (712) ALL, each and every one, ranked higher than Castillo’s 752 OPS.
by allfrank on Jun 9, 2008 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if you believe that OPS is more accurate than RC/27. I’m not sure why anyone would believe that, though.
by Evan on Jun 9, 2008 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are a couple of rough links for Bill Hall.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Jun 9, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You had me at "Story Title"
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 9, 2008 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
uh...yeah
you’re failing to recognize the possible Joe Crede trade scenerio from all of this. He’s batting .295 with 14 hrs right now….fwef….glad we dogged that bullet.
by TheUnsean86 on Jun 9, 2008 2:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn.
I did forget the Joe Crede flirtation. Still wouldn’t have wanted to trade anything of value for him, though.
by Grant on Jun 9, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah,
i agree, i wasn’t an advocate of the trade at the time, but the way Crede has excelled so far it definatley got me rethinking a bit.
by TheUnsean86 on Jun 9, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
although...
You’ve gotta admit that a Lowry/Crede swap at this point in the season is looking like it woulda been a pretty genious move.
by TheUnsean86 on Jun 9, 2008 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
We were worried about Crede’s healing. Looking better than poor Lowry’s.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I reserve the right to bash Castillo in game threads. I am convinced that is the only reason he is performing adequately.
Jose Castillo = all the deliciousness of pie crust; except filled with Grant’s smelly socks.
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 9, 2008 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Is that a Norwegian delight?
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 9, 2008 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought everyone loved pie crust
Is this not the case?
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 9, 2008 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You do?!?
Sheesh…and I am all the way over here! =P
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 9, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
'Tis true.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With this proclamation
No one will ever doubt my reach!
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 9, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ack! I just re-read was written and responded.
So much for lazy message board reading skills. Gah!
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is way too close to the time for me to leave work
Just havin’ some fun. =)
by Lars The Wanderer on Jun 9, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you, now. :o)
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a ginormous pain in the ass to make, but it is rather tasty.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 9, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can //make// it? Using what kind of witchcraft??
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I wouldn’t call it making it per se, more like cussing at the failed product and then swearing to use premade crusts from now on.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 11, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironically...
Aurillia and Castillo have both be pretty close to equally mediocre with the bat… and both have been better than Bowker/Ortmeier.
So, as usual, it all comes down to the usual suspect of inability to find an average hitting 1B.
Oh – and how badly does Omar have to hit before he loses his job?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Jun 9, 2008 2:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
For me, Castillo is symbolic of everything wrong with the Giants right now. Sabean can’t be bothered with silly little things like planning for the future or (until this year’s draft, I hope!) developing quality position players, so we’re constantly stuck with the best of a bad set of options. Even if he is the best of our options, what’s inexcusable is that we had to choose between those options in the first place. The Giants aren’t a small market, no budget team who should be forced to make do with spare parts across the diamond – we have the budget to have quality players. Just not the brains.
by jcb9 on Jun 9, 2008 2:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and personally, I would be less cranky with Castillo if Sabean wasn’t on record as saying he’s our solution for the third base problem. Not that it’s Castillo’s fault that Sabean says stupid things, mind you.
by jcb9 on Jun 9, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the “problem” was the desperate situation that was created when Frandsen went down. Up until that point that were auditioning Velez there for chrissakes. I really don’t think Sabean was insinuating that they’d found their cornerstone in Castillo.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Jun 9, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Besides, if Sabean said what management really thinks (i.e., “Oh shit – THAT’s who we have to play third?”), then somebody’s feelings might get hurt. Can’t have that (I’m looking at you, Bengie).
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps you’re right. The last few seasons have certainly inclined me to read idiocy into Sabean’s every statement (and I used to defend him – ah well).
That they keep batting Castillo #2 makes me wonder if they have more faith in the guy than reality warrants, though.
I’d rather have him with his contract than Feliz with a three-year deal, however.
by jcb9 on Jun 9, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a no brainer when you remember that not having Feliz and that three-year deal also got us Gillespie.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Jun 9, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
interesting scenarios proposed by the NY post. (the giants are mentioned in) scenarios 4 and 5:
http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/st/archives/2008/06/five_yankee_tra.html
The 2008 Giants: Think 2005 Rockies with a payroll twice as big and half as much talent.
by BCsteve on Jun 9, 2008 2:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
i didn’t realize giantsrainman wrote a sports blog for the Post.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 9, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve seen that article pretty much based by most fans, I read it and thought it was a little silly.
by xanthan on Jun 9, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT: Dallas McPherson
I went to the Isotopes’ game a few weeks ago (Marlins farm team) and much to my 6 year old son’s delight the cleanup batter had the same name as him, Dallas. And he hit a home run for us that night. Dallas (my son) thought that was great.
by paboperfecto on Jun 9, 2008 2:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You're spot on here....
I think the reason people have chosen him as the whipping boy is he share’s that one VERY frustrating trait w/Pedro: he loves him some double plays (and swinging early, but thats a bit diff).
Here are 2 comment starters of my own (things I’ve been wondering):
-As bad as Velez was defensively at 2b, would he have been any worse at 3b? Would people have made him the whipping boy if he started there over Castle?
-Also, would people have been willing to put up with the OMG SAVE TEH CHILDRENZ quality defense McClain would’ve put up for the .05% chance he really would’ve been Cust-ian?
KTHXBYE
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Jun 9, 2008 2:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
re. McClain
no fucking way
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 9, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's something interesting I've noticed
Is there a connection between low OBP and lots of DP? The three guys I can think of that ground into tons of DP – Feliz, Castillo and Pierzynski – all average about 9 walks per season. Xanthan, get on it!
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jun 9, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, if Castillo is unable to fulfill his duties as whipping boy....
who is his successor?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 9, 2008 2:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
F.P. Santaneglo?
Oh, wait, he’s “Whipping Boy Emeritus”
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on Jun 9, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tough tough q.
People have said we can’t use Zito b/c its not his fault he’s overpaid. So who does that leave?
Walker for sweating country gravy and blowing some games?
Chulk for being mediocre?
If I can’t blame Castle (which you make a strong case for), I don’t know who to use :(
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Jun 9, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I picked the Dodgers.
One of my coworkers is a fervent Mets fan who hates blowmeatz as much as I, and he’s like “dude, he’s still pitching in the majors. How much would you love it if he made his way to the Dodgers?”
to which i said, OMFG I want to see that.
Just incase you were wondering.
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Jun 9, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito's not *just* overpaid though
He also sucks, independent of his salary.
I dub him SFG Whipping Boy 2008!
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 9, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now that I think of it, there isn’t anyone on the team who drives me as batty as folks like Benitez, Neifi Perez, and Pedro Feliz have in the recent past. In the past we’ve always had a giant black hole of suck getting far too much playing time somewhere on the diamond. This year, though, it’s more just a general sea of mediocre goop.
by jcb9 on Jun 9, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Viva la RallyKiller!
Think SF should have RallyKiller playing 2b and someone else playing 3b.
by wilriv21 on Jun 9, 2008 2:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why? Not that I have any faith in Durham, but he’s hitting well enough to trick some of the stupider GMs into thinking he has trade value. Nobody on our roster who can play third base is doing as well or better than Durham. So why move Castillo to 2B? Defense?
by jcb9 on Jun 9, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This team can walk and chew gum at the same time
This team can trade Durham and still play for the pennant this season. If teams are scared off by Durham’s defense then possibly an AL club may want him for his OBP at the top of their order or at the #9 hitter. While Castillo is not the answer to the SF future 3b job he may be the answer to the 2b job. Atkins, DeWitt, Tracy, Crede and Hall all play 3b and may be available. Kick the tires. Due diligence.
by wilriv21 on Jun 9, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whipping boy
He’ll probably stay my whipping boy. His strike out rate is increasing, even if he’s not hitting into as many DPs (uh, because he’s just whiffing!). His defense is pretty bad, particularly when it is not compensated for with good offense. I think I’d be much more willing to give the guy a break if he didn’t suck in both halves of the inning.
I look at it this way – the team is definitely rebuilding (even if we are just one hot week away from contention! not). We’re trying to give the youngsters (sometimes that’s a relative term – I’m looking at you Orty) some time to develop. And when that’s going on, the position players you have should contribute to the improvement, not hamper it. If your developing 1B or 2B isn’t getting a crisp throw from your 3B for an out or DP, then that’s not going to help that guy improve at this level.
And even if Castle isn’t hitting into the DPs, he’s still not producing much at the plate. So batting 2nd is definitely stupid (not his fault, admittedly). And that’s blocking someone else who should maybe be getting those ABs at the top of the order.
At any rate, he’s cheap and he’s here. I’d still rather see him than Mr. Happy, but if I had my druthers, I’d rather have someone else. And, I feel betrayed that Sabean didn’t either get someone to play the corners or pay enough attention to the farm system to have someone ready. We’ve known for years that we need someone there, and look what we’ve got.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on Jun 9, 2008 3:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Happy for the Draft
No one has mentioned that by not signing Pedro, but instead his younger equivalent, the Giants got a draft choice that they used to get someone who has a good chance of being their future third baseman. Castillo is doing about as well as anyone available, at much lower cost in $$ and/or personnel while rebuilding, and he stands out favorably in an infield with Omar hitting .200, Durham playing as though he lacked opposable thumbs, and an as yet makeshift first baseman.
by campanari on Jun 9, 2008 3:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
'Cos I'm the Statman
yeah , I’m the Statmaa – a – a – aan…
Out of curiosity I looked it up.
Jose “Rally Killer” Castillo , in 87 games with Pittsborgh in ‘07 , GIDP eleven times.
Here it’s only taken him 61 games to eclipse that total by one.
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on Jun 9, 2008 3:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought the only reason we signed Castillo was because Kevin Frandsen injured himself in Spring Training. Going into the season I believe the general feeling was that Kevin and Richie were going to man the hot corner (I didn’t say it was a good plan, but that was the plan.) Kevin got hurt and Sabean didn’t overreact and mortgage the farm by getting a Crede or Encarcion. I personally didn’t mind the move at the time and yeah it bites at me with every GIDP or fielding blunder (sometimes I miss you Pedro), but Grant is right, he is what he is. The best available solution (cost and talent) in late March.
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
by WilliamVanLandingham on Jun 9, 2008 3:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone else wince at the term “injured himself” when referring to a likeable guy?
I dunno, maybe I’m a wuss, but I prefer “got hurt”. For some reason my brain thinks “injured himself” implies that he could’ve done something to avoid it. And I’m pretty sure Kevin would’ve done that, if possible.
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on Jun 9, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that kinda like when people say “He’s only beating himself”? Ithink most guys who are beating themselves wouldn’t do so if there are other options present.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Jun 9, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That whipping boy, he’s only beating himself.
All-Father Watch: 1.19 ERA, 6 saves, 0.92 WHIP, 30 Ks in 30 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on Jun 9, 2008 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castillo still sucks!
stop trying to spoil all the fun, Grant.
by sam23 on Jun 9, 2008 4:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If Castillo’s error in the ninth had cost the Giants the game today (like, if the Nats had gotten a two-out two run homer after he made that error), it would have been entirely Grant’s fault.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Jun 9, 2008 9:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Castillo? I hardly know you!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 10, 2008 2:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm… that at least sounds right in my head. It doesn’t read very well.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 10, 2008 2:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know what does read well, though? This joke:
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world: those who understand binary code, and those who don’t.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 10, 2008 2:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s two kinds, stupid!
Man are you stupid.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Jun 10, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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