Looking Towards The Future
As the trading deadline approaches, I am beginning to wonder if B.S. will take his rebuilding commitment seriously and trade away as many veterens as possible; or will he be tempted to keep a potential .500 team on the field. As of right now, Randy Winn has the most AB's of anyone on the Giants this season. With both Randy Winn and Bengie Molina signed through 09', it's pretty doubtful that they will contribute at all to any competitive Giants teams that hopefully will arrive around 2010/2011.
Molina should be able to fetch us a B level prospect or maybe even more if we throw in a young middle reliever or trade with the right knucklehead team.
Randy WInn should be able to get us a C level prospect, and the Giants might have to pay some of his salary, but it would clear the path for Nate Schierholtz who has no business being in the PCL.
And even with Ray's lukewarm start, we could probably even dump half his salary. I would much rather watch Denker hit .240 then watch Ray Ray hit .280
The absolute worst thing the Giants could do this year, is play all the veterens, win something like 70-75 games, and not build anywhere towards the future. I know the draft isn't as sure a thing as it is in the NFL (which is still never a sure thing in its own right), but picking somewhere between 10-15 next year would be a complete disaster. We need as many high profile hitting prospects as we can garner.
I'm feelin this Grant Green guy.
3) Grant Green SS Southern California
Green is probably the best shortstop prospect in America whose last name isn’t Beckham. His upside is similar to Troy Tulowitzki minus a little glove but plus a little power and two working quadriceps. Green started the year off a little slow but has rebounded nicely. And after a 13 game hitting streak was recently snapped he sits at .386/.425/.667 on the season – USC plays in a pitchers park (87 PF) and against very tough competition (2 SoS). Green is a good athlete and efficient base runner (8/9 steals). His power potential is what will really have teams intrigued, .281 IsoP and 40.68 XBH% project very well for a shortstop. With a big spring next year and a bump in his walk rate – he has drawn just 11 free passes this season – he could go in the top 7 picks, like Tulo.
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11 walks on the season for Green?
Sounds like a Sabean pick. Can he pitch?
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
I completely agree about your points on Winn and Durham
Maybe if Durham gets moved Velez comes back up, either way it is good. However, Winn HAS to be moved. Schierholtz has passed every test the org has put in front of him and he needs to be in the bay. Maybe Winn for Andy Marte, i dunno, just something. I can think of at least 3 teams that could use Durham or Winn, with the Indians having use for both. B.S. get it done.
Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park
Trades
Winn – Any decent prospect under 23 with a bit of upside
Durham – Any decent prospect under 25 with a bit of upside
Vizquel – Any decent prospect under 28 with a bit of upside
Aurillia – Any decent prospect under 27 with a bit of upside
Down in Front Meat!
Idk about this Green guy...
I’d be less skeptical if he had 3 working quadriceps…
Comp Pick
One thing to keep in mind is that if Molina doesn’t fall off a cliff production-wise and leaves as a free agent, the Giants would still get a prospect in the form of a compensation pick.
http://minorgiants.wordpress.com/
Where the relative merits of Joe Paterson and Daniel Otero are hashed out over knife fights and tea.
If we offer him arbitration, that is. Or if he signs before the deadline.
Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.
If he's good then, we'd have to be pretty stupid not to offer him arbitration
*waits for it *
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
True Enough
But I would imagine that at that time Bengie would be looking for a multi-year contract to round out his career. This is all moo, however, if he pulls a Ray Durham (2007 model) next year.
http://minorgiants.wordpress.com/
Where the relative merits of Joe Paterson and Daniel Otero are hashed out over knife fights and tea.
Remember
The veterans aren’t going to get traded by sitting on the bench all year. They need to be showcased and prove that they still can play. Yeah, keep them fresh by giving them a game or two off per week, but keep them in the lineup and productive, or other teams will neither want them nor give up anything worthwhile in return.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 7, 2008 2:47 PM PDT reply actions
which is why its important to be shopping these veterans now. If the veterans don’t get traded, the development of new players this year will have been minimal. If just two out of the group of Schierholtz, Bowker, Velez, Denker and Burriss get starters time, i will be happy. That requires 2 vets being shipped off in a trade or DFA’d
Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park
by Speedforthewin on Jun 7, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
Sabean should be attempting to move Molina, Winn, Durham, Aurilia, and Vizquel. Maybe only two of them get moved, maaaybe three. Still, at the end of July, anyone not traded should sit at least half the time.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 7, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Aurilia and Durham
Last season it was not feasible or reasonable for a team to trade for the likes of Aurilia or Durham because they had a 1.3 yrs of contract remaining, This season, at the trade deadline, Aurilia and Durham will “only” be owed about .3 of their salaries so a contender could make a trade for either if they are productive.
I wonder if we don't overemphasis this somewhat
It seems to me that teams looking for vets for the stretch drive are relying more on a career’s worth of effort than any recent, short-term success. I know Kendall last year virtually played himself onto the bench before being traded, and switching sports for a minute, it’s not been that unusual in the NBA for players to get stretch-run trades like Shaq’s this year, where they’ve played little or none all year. I can’t offhand think of a baseball trade like this recently, but I wouldnt’ be surprised if someone else came up with one. I just don’t think that GMs running teams with post-season hopes are really that concerned about last night’s or even last week’s box score before pulling the trigger on a deal.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
No, but 1) a guy with better recent success will likely bring better return, and 2) a guy buried on the bench with a .167 average is more likely to make teams look elsewhere.
Contenders will bring in a benched, perhaps washed-up vet to be a bench player or PH, but a productive vet will go to a team looking to upgrade or with an injured regular. Also, while these vets won’t bring huge value back, they are handy because teams will overpay for the stretch run.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 7, 2008 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions
But what about a guy (say Durham) only semi-buried on the bench with a .290 average. Would a reduction in playing time really change his trade value that much from whatever it actually is right now?
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
Since he has proven that he still can play, then no, probably not.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 8, 2008 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I was hoping to see a
projected 2011 giants roster. anyone? I’d attempt to speculate, but I dont have anywhere near the minor league knowledge of most of you so I wont embarass myself. seems like after this draft we could fill out a pretty nice team around that time without having to rely on the free agent market much at all.
I'll give it my best shot
Lineup:
C: Buster Posey
1B: Andy D’Alessio (only b/c I don’t think Big V will be ready yet)
2B: Eugenio Velez
SS: Manny Burris
3B: Conor Gillaspie
LF: Fred Lewis
CF: Aaron Rowand
RF: Nate Schierholtz
Rotation:
1.Lincecum
2.Cain.
3. Sanchez
4. Alderson
5. Zito (hopefully Mad-Bum instead)
CP: Wilson
waiting for 2011....
Won't happen
At some point, FAs will be brought in and other guys will be traded. The chances of having a completely homegrown roster in 2011 (save Rowand) are about zero.
I’m also going to bet that Schierholtz never becomes a Giants regular. They might act like he will, and he might get a shot at it, but he is either going to fail or be traded.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 7, 2008 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I tend to think Schierholtz is the least likely Giants prospect to be traded or buried. Which organization would you expect to value a walkless wonder more highly than ours?
I think he’ll be pretty good, too, though the park is going to hurt him.
True about this organization, but Schierholtz is going to be Shea Hillenbrand. His power will evaporate in this park, he doesn’t have tremendous power in the first place, and he’ll hit .260 with a .310 OBP. Oh, he’ll have some doubles. Woo.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 7, 2008 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I think
I think Nate Schierholtz will be about a .290 hitter, not .260. He does need to achieve his stated goal of waiting for more pitches he can drive if he is to hit with enough power to be feared enough to draw enough walks.
I see Nate as a decent hitter right now—with the potential to be above average for a corner outfielder. I would bet against his achieving that potential, but I still think he will be an acceptable major leaguer.
I have trouble seeing him hit 20 HRs as a major league regular, especially in our park, and with virtually no IsoOBP to get with it I’m not sure how acceptable that would really be. Those are the personnel decisions that mark the difference between first division and second division clubs. Maybe instead of looking at league average production for positions, we need some kind of matrix to arrive at contending team average production numbers instead.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
I agree and disagree
I agree with you that knowing average contending team production numbers could be helpful, but some teams (such as the 2007 Padres) contend on pitching, not hitting, rendering those numbers less meaningful.
I like to look at the average numbers for each position and increase them a bit—not to be more like a contending team, but in order to more closely approximate the average numbers for STARTERS at the positions, throwing out the reduction in the average caused by bench players.
I then figure that if I can have a higher OPS at each position than the average starter at each position, I should have an above-average offensive team. If I have a player or players who are below that average, those players aren’t carrying their weight offensively and are usually guys I would look to replace first.
If I am good at evaluating players, I can build a model of what a team’s OPS is likely to be, based on projections of plate appearances and performance from its players. If I weight each player’s expected performance by his appearance of plate percentages for OBP and his percentage of at bats for SLG, I can estimate the overall team OPS.
I then can apply the rough formula of taking .600 and subtracting it from the expected team OPS, multiplying that difference by 200 and adding the product to 450. If I have done a good job of estimating the team OPS player-by-player, that should give me a fairly close approximation of how many runs the team will score.
If I can make a good estimate of how many runs the team will yield, I can subtract runs yielded from runs scored, then divide the difference by 10. If I add the resulting quotient (which could be negative) to 81, I should have a decent idea of how many wins to expect from my team.
Unfortunately I find pitching more difficult to predict than hitting, but at the very least I should be able to do a decent job of predicting offense. And if I can do a good job of predicting the pitching - which is usually more variable - I can often do a nice job of predicting how many wins that team will indeed win.
This year’s Giants team has an OPS of .732. That would project to 714 runs scored. Because of their very slow start in scoring, they are on pace to score only 666 (an ominous number) runs. That means if the Giants keep up their .732 OPS the rest of the season, they should continue scoring more runs.
The bad news is that it doesn’t appear the Giants will be able to sustain their .732 OPS the rest of the way. The following key hitters appear unlikely to be able to sustain their BABIP’s: Aaron Rowand (.391 vs. .328 career), Bengie Molina (.339 vs. .283 career), Ray Durham (.367 vs. .309 career) and Freddie Lewis (.363).
So my guess would be that the Giants’ team OPS will go down the rest of the way, but their run scoring may not suffer quite as much as would normally be expected (since it shows signs of bad luck now).
It will be intriguing to see how it all turns out at year’s end.
Durham and Lewis should be more likely to keep up those BABIP numbers. Durham has a sweet LD rate this year with the same GB rate as last year; basically, he has traded fly balls for line drives. His BABIP rate may fall somewhat, but if he doesn’t swing for HR, he shouldn’t have those fly balls dropping into gloves because they don’t make the fence.
Freddie! doesn’t have the LD rate Durham does, but he hits a lot of GB and is fast. He is exactly the kind of player that should have a high BABIP.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 8, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think
I think the strongest argument for a high BABIP would be with Fast Freddie—although they showed on TV today that his follow-through keeps him from getting a great jump out of the box.
I do expect Freddie’s BABIP to drop, but he hasn’t played in the bigs long enough for me to be certain. But he’s up there in Ichiro territory, and I doubt that can continue. Even Ichiro’s BABIP is down this season.
As for Durham, he’s hitting 58 points over his career BABIP. Did he suddenly become a much better hitter at his advanced age and reduced speed?
hmmm
I hope Big V will be ready to take the 1B gig, otherwise thats still a pretty lackluster lineup. Velez over Frandsen? maybe, but I sorta doubt it.
Maybe not until 2012
Maybe it won’t be until 2012, but here is the lineup I’m hoping for:
Fairley RF
Noonan 2B
Rowand CF
Villalona 1B
Posey C
Gillaspie 3B
Schierholtz LF
Burriss SS
Rotation:
Lincecum
Sanchez
Correia
Bumgarner
Alderson/Sosa
(Cain traded for a top-notch shortstop to take Burriss’ place above and Lowry traded if healthy and Zito even if the Giants have to eat salary)
Add in Pablo Sandoval and Freddie Lewis off the bench and a bullpen that includes Brian Wilson, Alex Hinshaw, Billy Sadler and a couple of other youngsters from the minor leagues and I think the Giants just might have a good team. Sosa, Alderson or Correia could also be in the bullpen—and possibly even Zito if the Giants would have to eat too much of his contract.
By the way, Barry DOES have a phenomenal career ERA the first time through the lineup. Although he’s clearly being paid to be a starter, it’s not impossible he could become an asset out of the pen. When the Giants first signed Barry, I actually had the gall to mention this as a possibility. :)
CAIN TRADED FOR A SHORTSTOP???
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 8, 2008 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions
that looks
like a great 2011-2012 to me. I’m not opposed to Cain being swapped for a SS and a few other prospects, that rotation has plenty of firepower even without him. Even accounting for Rowand being pretty old by that time, that lineup is pretty full of guys who can fly, and the d should be fairly solid as well.
A SHORTSTOP???
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 8, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
HTS
I know you love Cain and your “he’s only 23” argument is totally valid. I just dont think he’s shown dramatic improvement. I’m not saying dump him, but if we can get the kind of haul that other teams have been getting when trading good young pitching lately, its at least something we should consider. Especially when we will still be paying Zito when it comes time for Timmy and Matt to get rich new deals. We just cant pay 50-60 mil for 3 starting pitchers in my opinion. I feel like Cain’s trade value may never be higher than it will be for the next year BECAUSE of the argument you make- 23 year old pitchers with his kind of experience and stuff ARE extremely rare. After this draft shortstop seems to be the most premium position where we have the least in the system. (arguably still corner infield) Again nobody is saying go swap him for JJ Hardy, but since we are still several years away from contending, a package of several blue chip prospects could make sense.
Well a couple of things
That lineup includes so many Best Case development scenarios (not only reaching ceilings but reaching them in fastest imaginable cases) that it really seems akin to winning spending one buck on Lotto in your lifetime and hitting the Superball.
Also, even if all these guys are in the bigs by 2012, it seems pretty likely that you’d be talking about 6 or 7 rookies starting for you (either every day or in the rotation)—now THAT’S a rebuilding year, and if that was indeed a 2012 lineup, I don’t see how it could be aimed at anything other than trying to compete by say 2015, in which case why are they spending money resigning such a fungible player as Kevin Correia? (not to mention, UGH 10 years of losing!)
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
Oh also
If Timmy’s going into his walk year surrounded by rookies and second year players, I think it would be safe to assume he’d pursue riches, bright lights, and post-seasons elsewhere.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
And
And the friendships he has built up on the team. If Tim performs as he would seem to be capable, he’ll make plenty of money no matter where he plies his wares.
My guess two summers ago was that Tim might earn half a billion dollars in his career. That would be “only ” four Barry Zito contracts. :)
If Timmy performs as you (and I) expect
then there are tremendous pressures at work to get him to the free market. Some are external (the PA exerts tremendous behind the scenes pressure to get premier players to out on the market to set market prices), some are just natural ego (I could be a super star under the bright lights of NYC) and some are perfectly natural competitive drives. Adding to all those forces by fielding a non-competitive team is pretty ominous. To be honest, I’d expect him gone in 5 years regardless of our fortunes, but certainly if those fortunes trend closer to worst case and less to best it would seem to me to tip the scales. I don’t frankly think friendships play any role at all in these things. Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitie being maybe an exception.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
I’d expect him gone in 5 years
If this is the case then move him in a Haren/Santana type deal when the time comes.
I am more optimistic
I don’t have any inside information, but I’m a bit more optimistic that Tim will stay.
But why oh why didn’t the Giants try to lock him up long-term last season as soon as they brought him to bigs, as the Rays have done with Longoria this year. I know when I suggested doing so over a year ago most thought I was crazy, but perhaps I don’t look so crazy now (even though I am :).
I say I'm optimistic
I say I’m optimistic, but that may be hope more than substance.
Honestly, Shark
imagine this, Lincecum reaches year 5 or 6 and has NEVER played on a .500 team. Surely this a player who has been bred to greatness, and who probably wants to be considered one of the greatest ever—what possible reason could he have for staying with a long-term loser (other than a contract offer that massively overpays the market)?
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
I love Grant Green
next year’s starting pitching class is a lot better than this year’s with Stephen Strasburg and Kyle Gibson great bets to go 1st and 2nd (although it’s ridiculous to say that a year early). That might lead other teams to take pitchers and leave the Giants with the best position player.
I don’t think the idea that we have to ‘trade vets so we can play prospects every day in order for them to develop’ is accurate or correct. Actually, bringing young guys up to watch and to play part time and to watch some more I think can be very beneficial – and provide a means of learning without the risk of complete and utter failure (a la L Niekro). The Giants have shown, for the most part, a patience with guys who are making progress. But when they are just lost (Velez, Bocock), they get sent down. The benefit to having vets to play is that you don’t have a merry-go-round of players from AAA. Bochy – or whoever would be manager – isn’t going to do it the way I would. But I think Bochy is doing a pretty good time of allocating playing time – except for Ort. He, basically, let’s guys earn playing time, but gives them plenty of opportunity to learn by watching.

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