Lincecum leads league in Ks
There's a long way to go in the season yet, but it's very cool to see Tim Lincecum's name atop the national league leaderboard for strikeouts. Cool and at the same time, very strange. It made me wonder, who was the last Giants pitcher to lead the league in strikeouts over a whole season?
It wasn't Jason Schmidt, whose 251 Ks in 2004 were eclipsed by Randy Johnson's 290.
It wasn't John "The Count" Montefusco. He struck out 215 in 1975, won Rookie of the Year, but was well behind Tom Seaver's 243.
Gaylord Perry's best season as a Giant, in terms of strikeouts, was 1969 when he recorded 233 Ks, but the leader that year was Fergie Jenkins with 273.
It wasn't Juan Marichal either. He struck out 248 in 1963, but Sandy Koufax struck out 306 and won the MVP that season.
In fact, as it turns out, no San Francisco Giants pitcher has ever managed this feat. The last NY Giant to do it was Bill Voiselle (who?) in 1944, against a WW2-weakened league. Last one before that was Carl Hubbell in 1937. Christy Mathewson led the league five times between 1903 and 1908.
Both Hubbell and Mathewson, of course, are Hall of Famers whose numbers have been retired by the Giants. Not that I'm saying Lincecum is a hall of famer. I'll wait at least one more season before starting that drumbeat.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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All-Father Watch: 1.26 ERA, 7 saves, 1.01 WHIP, 36 Ks in 35 2/3 IP
by EliminateMe on Jun 30, 2008 3:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hadn’t even crossed my mind.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 30, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
way ahead of you. but thanks for understanding.
I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."
by Mayor of 311 on Jun 30, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two people already gave you the spite vote.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jun 30, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not your father because you’re a bastard in a basket!
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Jun 30, 2008 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I DRINK IT UP!!!
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 30, 2008 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
DRAINAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DRAINAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Jun 30, 2008 8:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet
Also if Cain gets three strikeouts on Tuesday, it’ll mark the first time the franchise has had three pitchers with 100+ strikeouts before the All Star break (the other two being Lincecum and Sanchez, of course).
by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 3:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez
The three of them remind me of the old Braves trio… Glavine, Smoltz, and Maddux ;D except younger. :P
by GiNgiNxbOi on Jun 30, 2008 3:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If the three obtain the same amount of control that Big Three had over their pitches, I’d be beyond ecstatic.
by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only the wide strikezone would be brought back too.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 30, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adopted brother of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE⢠returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Jun 30, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
never gets old
Rafael Rodriguez: Vlad Guerrero on layaway?
by BrianBokake on Jun 30, 2008 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
so...
does that mean Lowry=Avery?
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on Jun 30, 2008 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
Because then Zito=Maddux.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 30, 2008 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about if Zito=post-hooker Denny Neagle?
by ExcuseMeSwing on Jun 30, 2008 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
can we trade him for the pre-hooker Neagle? He was waaayyyy better.
by tyrannoman on Jul 1, 2008 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or someone who’s smart enough to purchase quality hookers with all that cash he’s made for doing nothing? $40 for a BJ is still the most egregious part of the whole scandal, to me.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 1, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, everyone knows the established price is $20. What a moron…
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 1, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm pretty sure you can get one for free of craigslist
It might be from a dude, but I hear it feels the same.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 1, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The old, “It’s all the same in the dark” motto?
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 1, 2008 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
something like that
A close derivative of “it’s all pink on the inside”.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 1, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s exactly what I was thinking, I was just trying to keep it a little classy.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on Jul 1, 2008 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
pink is classy.
I’ve always felt that way, anyway.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Jul 1, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And with way more power
You never saw Glavine or Maddux lead the league in strikeouts…
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 1, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me while I salivate...
...but now I’m thinking of a rotation of:
1. Tim Lincecum
2. Matt Cain
3. Madison Bumgarner
4. Tim Alderson
5. 2009 draftee Stephen Strasburg
Make Sanchez and Sosa possible trade bait in (emphasis) good trades, and, well, Zito can go just about anywhere. I’m not exactly picky. I’d even drop him if we could have a rotation like that.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Jul 1, 2008 12:05 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I dunno...
The way Sanchez is playing, I’d like to see how well he does for a full season next year. If he outperforms Cain as he has this year, I would make Cain rather than Sanchez trade bait.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on Jul 1, 2008 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why limit the situation?
Why not evaluate both Matt Cain and Jonathan Sanchez carefully, place a value on them and then see which players comes closest to achieving his value with what is offered in trade? Hopefully that might result in receiving even MORE than the evaluated level of the pitcher, if one doesn’t artificially limit its options?
Your idea of waiting to see how Jonathan performs over two full seasons (2008 and 2009) is a good one, but why not ALWAYS have an ongoing evaluation of players so that if a truly good offer comes along, one is ready to leap on it?
In the evaluation I would include ceiling, chance of reaching the ceiling, most likely level, worst-case situation and injury potential. Oh, and the readiness of replacements, of course. But right now I would be looking to improve my overall talent pool and wouldn’t be all that concerned with position.
In comparing Sanchez and Cain, I have thought for a while that Jonathan has the higher ceiling—but that Matt had a much better chance of reaching his ceiling. Jonathan’s fine performance thus far this season leads me to increase my estimate of his chances of reaching his ceiling, but I still worry about the long-term health of his arm.
But the Giants have a full staff that is far better positioned to make these evaluations than we are. We can only hope that they are making informed judgments and that they will be able to convert their assets into younger and better ones.
Probably the two most important things the Giants can do right now is to develop the players they have and identify under-appreciated players of value in other organizations that might be available for veteran players or even for reciprocal prospects.
There are a lot of similarities in how teams evaluate players. But there are differences as well - both in methodology and in acumen. The goal should almost always be to find players to trade whose value to the Giants is less than another team is willing to pay - and to find undervalued players to receive in return.
Eventually the goal will be to fine-tune the roster to be as competitive as possible. Right now it seems to me that the goal should be getting younger and accumulating young assets. And developing the ones they have, of course.
by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Barry Zito
your lefty specialist. Just think…bottom of the seventh, the Giants’ clinging to a two run lead…a double and an intentional walk brings up Prince Fielder…the call to the ‘pen…out trots B-Zit! Condfidence soars…
by tyrannoman on Jul 1, 2008 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Specialist
I like your idea here, Tyrannoman. While disparaging the signing of Barry when it happened, I mentioned that possibly his best usage would be as a relief specialist. Barry’s career ERA the first time through the order is 2.18, and even this difficult season, it is just 3.03 the first time around.
by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compare value to offers?
With the surfeit of potential starting pitchers developing (hopefully with a healthy Noah Lowry and possibly others such as Ben Snyder, Jesse English and Clayton Tanner joining the mix), wouldn’t it make sense to evaluate each of the contenders, then see which pitchers draw the highest interest level compared to their evaluation?
Also, might this potential bounty afford the opportunity to place pitchers in the rotation to improve their value, then trade them to make room for a younger (and hopefully as or more talented) pitcher in the rotation? Wouldn’t the ideal situation be to always have enough pitching talent in the pipeline to force the trading of a rotation pitcher or pitchers whose trade value may exceed his marginal value in the rotation?
It would seem that the Giants might have the potential to establish such a situation if they have the patience to do so.
by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I've been preaching for years now that Sabean is doing
Fill up the cup with pitching, when the cream overflows, you can start selling for parts you do need.
I would say that a pitching staff full of Giants developed pitchers is a pretty good sign that they have the patience to do so.
To your comment above, Sabean has noted before that the player development organization creates a book on all their prospects, basically in a thumbs-up/thumbs-down fashion, basically whether they are a keeper or OK to trade. So I would have no doubt that the team has something similar for the 25 man roster as well. Perhaps that is why Tidrow was re-assigned to help with the MLB roster and MLB evaluations, to help with that assessment.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 1, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean's also been preaching it for years
it’s just that his attempts at practicing it have had some pretty dismal results.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 1, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is good
I like the thumbs-up, thumbs-down approach, but I would hope they take things much deeper than that. I would hope that they would perhaps have something like a 100-point scale, with players such as Albert Pujols in the 90’s and a player who was on the verge of being released from the minors a “one.”
And I would hope that they would update that scale on a rotating basis, with all players in the organization and players outside who are deemed to be of consequence updated perhaps once a month. Evaluations would consider factors such as present level, potential, likelihood, health, salary and eligibility for arbitration or free agency, as well as any intangibles of importance.
With tens of millions being spent on individual players, it would seem to make sense to have the best in talent evaluation and development that money can buy.
by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2008 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A small editorial change, if I may
“Matthewson, a Hall of Famer whose ‘jersey’ has been retired by the Giants…”
Not sure why I felt compelled to do that.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 1, 2008 7:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I was just about to do the same thing. No numbers back in the aughts and teens. (Baseball nerd alert!)
Proud new parent of Mr. Buster Posey... you know, if he signs and stuff.
by GiantsFanInExile on Jul 1, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another Nerd alert: the Big 6
I would advocate retiring the number “6” in Mathewson’s honor because his nickname was “the Big 6”, which, if I remember right, was the number of the local fire engine truck (unfortunately I don’t remember why he picked that up, perhaps the speed of the engine, or the way they saved the day by getting the fire out)
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 1, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not tremendously relevant, but this quote from Matthewson’s Wikipedia page cracked me up:
Along with his brother Henry Mathewson, he holds the major league record for combined wins by brothers playing for the same team: Christy 373, Henry 0
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on Jul 1, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My one and only Giants jersey says Mathewson on the back with the number 6. It would be a great idea – would love it if they did this.
Proud new parent of Mr. Buster Posey... you know, if he signs and stuff.
by GiantsFanInExile on Jul 1, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great idea!
I really like the idea of retiring the number six for Christy Mathewson. From what I have read, Christy was probably the most respected of all Giants, and he seems to be considered by many to be the third- or fourth-best pitcher ever.
I have predicted that Tim Lincecum will become the best pitcher in SF Giants history, but I wasn’t so bold as to predict he would outperform Christy. Yes, I think it is possible. But Christy is probably one of the best 20 players ever to play the game.
I predicted Tim would become the best pitcher in SF Giants history because that was what my eyes, my brain and my heart were telling me. But they are also telling me that it is more possible than likely that he will surpass Christy, who is just a HUGE icon and likely no worse than the third-best player in Giants history.
I will say this: If Tim had the control Christy had, I believe he would indeed be better than Christy. And that’s really saying something.
by sharksrog on Jul 1, 2008 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa whoa whoa, now. Better than Marichal? Tim? Look I love him so much I’d consider waiving my no babies edict for him, but….zuh?
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 1, 2008 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually most pitchers of this era have a decent chance of better careers than Marichal and his contemporaries because of the way usage and sports medicine have changed the game. Juan, like most of the greats of the 4 man rotation, finish what you started era, was finished pretty young. His arm was shredded by the time he was 32, and 33 was his last good year.
That was pretty typical of the time. Drysdale’s last great year was at 28 and he was done at 31. Koufax of course retired at 30 with chronic pain in his elbow. Palmer pitched until he was 38, but with the exception of a fluky 1982 season, he was done as a great pitcher after 32. Whitey Ford was notoriously babied by Casey Stengle (who would often pitch him on 6, 7, or even 8 days rest and refused to start him against second division clubs), but was still done by 35 or 36. Bob Gibson managed to maintain excellence all the way to 37. There’s a good reason why none of these truly great pitchers came close to 300 wins. Their arms were gone before they could get there.
Despite the moronic intonations from ESPN and the talking heads about how we’re seeing the last ever 300 game winner, which I’ve heard now for the last 4 or 5 300 game winners, it’s much much easier to pack on win totals and other counting stats in this era than it was in that one because so many years are added on to the end of pitcher’s career. I remember when Clemens hit 300 that many were predicting that Maddux wasn’t going to make it there—of course they were only off by 50 wins or so.
Of course, Lincecum could go on to have one of those 300win, HOF, pitch until 43 careers and still not be the greatest Giants pitcher, because keeping him in our uniform may be a much bigger challenge than keeping him on the field and in the win column.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 2, 2008 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not talking in terms of stats per se or that Marichal and friends could pitch 16 inning complete games. It is a completely different era in usage, conditioning, and the like as you said.
Just the fact that Marichal was unhittable nearly every time he stepped out there is what makes me question Lincecum as the greatest pitcher the Giants ever knew. Lincecum has the killer instinct, he has the stuff, but I see him falter here and there. Opposing batters can still get to him. Which is perfectly acceptable with his age and experience.
As Lincecum matures and grows the potential is there to be an incredible pitcher, one who can lead the pitchers of his era. But of all time…all time is a lot of time to consider when comparing Marichal and Mathewson to Lincecum. And it’s even harder to comp to Mathewson IMO, because of the vast differences in eras between then and now. Even Marichal to Lincecum is an easier comp and those two eras are basically night and day.
I singled out Marichal because his success is easier for me to understand. Mathewson is undoubtedly absolutely one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived, as was Marichal. But when I see him throw even in old old old film, I can see exactly what made him such a badass for any era.
I hope in 40 years we’re both still around to see the result of this debate. If Lincecum is the greatest of all time, I’ll buy you a Coke. :)
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 2, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a big Juan fan but...
The era in which he pitched was very hard to hit in. His career ERA+ is 123, tied for 77th in history. (Although that includes 800 odd innings of inning eater at the end of his career in the 70s) .
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on Jul 2, 2008 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unhittable?
Baron, you say that Juanito was unhittable almost every time he stepped on the mound, yet he has yielded 8.09 hits per nine innings to Tim’s 7.56. Juanito also yielded a homer every 10.9 innings, while Tim has given up only one every 15.1 innings.
This despite today’s game being more of a hitters’ game and particularly more of a power game.
Juanito had much better control than Tim, but that was his only real advantage. He pitched a lot more innings, too, but that was because the game was much different.
I think Tim has a LONG way to go to catch Juanito. But if he pitches as he has the past year for ten more, he will have blown Juanito away.
By the way, I had the pleasure of seeing Juanito’s no-hitter. The one ball that appeared most likely to be a hit was a drive to left center which was caught on a very fine running backhand by … Willie McCovey.
I also saw Juan bloody John Roseboro. I realize how stupid the irrational Giants/Dodgers rivalry (It’s a great thing, but gets carried WAY too far on many occasions.) is when I think back to Willie Mays’ walking his good friend Roseboro to the tunnel leading to the Dodger clubhouse.
Using the crazy logic of some fans, that would have made Willie a traitor. But didn’t someone once say you would never go broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public? :)
Willie was such a traitor that he won the game with a three-run homer off Sandy Koufax in the eighth inning.
by sharksrog on Jul 2, 2008 5:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rog, our history really is freakily convergent. I, too, was at Marichal’s no-hitter. I believe it was the third game I ever saw. If I recall correctly both our fathers saw Mays’ 600th HR in San Diego as well. Strange.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jul 3, 2008 7:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m in trouble if I don’t understand how these numbers work, aren’t I?
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 3, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah… I’m going to have to wait 15 years before I even think about putting Lincecum into Mathewson’s class. Timmy’s good, but let’s see if he can string this kind of performance together for a few years in a row, much less the balance of his career, before predicting he’ll be better than Mathewson (a.k.a. one-fifth of the original Hall of Fame class).
Proud new parent of Mr. Buster Posey... you know, if he signs and stuff.
by GiantsFanInExile on Jul 1, 2008 8:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
Timmy will have to be be unhittable from this point on to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Matthewson.
by Natto on Jul 1, 2008 10:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
OMG YOU JUST DID IT
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jul 1, 2008 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said
I said right away that I believe Tim would become the best pitcher in SF Giants history, replacing Juan Marichal in doing so. Although I think it is POSSIBLE Tim could become the equal of Christy Mathewson, that is a prediction I’m not yet prepared to make, given that aside from Walter Johnson and Cy Young, Christy may be the best pitcher in the history of the game.
Christy was also a war hero and was perhaps as beloved as any baseball player in history. I have no problem mentioning Tim in the same sentence with Christy, but it would be at least a decade before I could likely even CONSIDER them as possible equals.
As I said, I think Tim COULD become the pitcher Christy was. But predicting it at this time would take someone far more prescient than I. (Or at least someone who THOUGHT he was. :)
by sharksrog on Jul 2, 2008 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I would certainly hope his jersey’s been retired – it’d have to be pretty threadbare by now otherwise.
I wasn’t sure how to phrase that, but the Giants own website includes Mathewson and McGraw in the list of “retired numbers” without qualifying it, so I figured it was close enough. Of course I didn’t reckon with the mighty nitpicking powers of the McCoven.
All-Father Watch: 1.23 ERA, 8 saves, 0.98 WHIP, 37 Ks in 36 2/3 IP
by EliminateMe on Jul 1, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The two M's
Christy Mathewson and Juan Marichal share quite a few things.
Both had surnames starting with M’s.
Both players were heroes in their native county in a manner that went far beyond merely baseball.
Both are Hall of Famers.
Both are right-handed and pitched lots of complete games.
Both are the best pitcher in their respective town’s portion of Giants history—Christy in New York and Juan in SF.
But don’t get confused by thinking that Juanito, as great as he was, was in a class with Christy. Christy is considered by many to be the third-best pitcher of all time. Juan was no better than the third-best pitcher of his ERA. (That’s era, not earned run average. :)
Juan was a delight to watch, and his 1-0 16-inning win over Warren Spahn was epic. But he wasn’t Sandy Koufax, and he wasn’t Bob Gibson, and he wasn’t Tom Seaver, and he may not have been Jim Palmer or possibly even Nolan Ryan.
by sharksrog on Jul 2, 2008 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

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