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The Lurking Veteran

Before the season started, we had some kind of indication that the offense would be bad. That's still true, even though it’s much, much better than expected. Heck, almost every non-shortstop is a league-average hitter. We also had some kind of indication that the young pitching would determine if a sub-.500 season would be considered a "success." That's still the cases, and the fine pitching of Jonathan Sanchez has made the expected success even successier. The season has gone as we expected, more or less. We are who we thought we were.

So there weren’t too many sabers to rattle in the winter or spring. There was only the redundancy of Dave Roberts. The crusade started here, and the theme was repeated ad nauseum after that. In an organization with two veteran starting-quality outfielders and two outfield prospects with nothing left to prove in the minors, the last thing the team needed was a non-starting-quality veteran outfielder to gobble up at-bats.

The crusade was postponed, however, when Dave Roberts was injured. Note that this was never something I wished for – it’s beyond ghoulish to hope a player gets injured – but it sure was the simplest solution. Roberts went down, which forced Fred Lewis to get the bulk of the at-bats in left field. Lewis has been a league-average left fielder, and it sure seems like there’s room for improvement in his game. With the emergence of Lewis, the Giants have one less roster spot to worry about when trying to put together a winning team for the future.

Roberts is about to start a minor-league rehab assignment. He’ll be back soon, and this will present the biggest test of Bruce Bochy’s Giants career. With the other veteran v. whippersnapper debates, Bochy could always hide behind the "we’re trying to win ballgames"-argument. As in, yeah, I could get Bowker some at-bats against lefties, but Rich Aurilia is probably the better hitter against lefties, so I’ll start Aurilia in those situations. He really believed that, and, heck, he’s been right for the most part. Ray Durham, Rich Aurilia, and Randy Winn have been assets to the 2008 Giants.

With Lewis and Roberts, though, things are easy:

  • Fred Lewis is currently hitting better than Roberts has ever hit in his career.
  • Fred Lewis is a left-handed hitter. Roberts is too. There is no reason to sit one in favor of the other because of platoon considerations.
  • Fred Lewis is part of the Giants’ future, and Roberts isn’t.

Poof. Self-created problem solved in three bulletpoints. Roberts deserves the same amount of playing time that Brian Horwitz has received. Fourth- or fifth-outfielder at-bats, at best. It makes sense in the present, and it makes sense for the future.

So let’s see how deep Bruce Bochy’s veteran appreciation runs. Will he split time evenly between Lewis and Roberts? Or has Roberts been pipped past the point of no return, even by Giant-standards?

I’m curiously optimistic. I think Roberts starts once a week – spotting Randy Winn and Aaron Rowand just as much as Lewis – while popping up mostly as a pinch-hitter or runner. I wouldn’t be surprised to be wrong, though.

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* Ship Roberts to Boston for a 5-gallon bucket of seeds

solved in 1 bullet point

Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.

by delorean on Jun 30, 2008 12:43 PM PDT   0 recs

I agree

That this, as well as who remains after the deadline, will be the biggest indications of if the Giants are for real about rebuilding, or of the sucess this far has just been an accident.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jun 30, 2008 12:54 PM PDT   0 recs

Hunh. I must say that you are missing at least three points.

One is that your essayette doesn’t even mention how good Zito is and how helpful his contract is to the Giants’ future.
The second is related to the first: Brian Sabean is an excellent GM, so all your big think-tanky kind of astrophysicky kind of questions that you’re asking. We can count on Sabean to do the right thing, just like Jesus never lets anything too bad happen to anyone.
Third, once we pick up Maddux (for Ortmeier), he will have the veteranness, savviness, and oldness to tell Bochy that even my cat knows to play Lewis the majority of the time and use Roberts as a spot fill-in guy.

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 30, 2008 12:56 PM PDT   0 recs

Essayette… I like it. I will make my students write only essayettes from here on.

by RougeGorrila on Jun 30, 2008 1:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

(nevertheless, I am flattered.)

I'm adopting a true Giant and an awe-inspring gamer: tk. "Atta babe."

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 30, 2008 1:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The solution:

Start Lewis every game after Roberts returns, but have him wear Roberts’ uniform. Whip up the trade frenzy, then trade the real Roberts at the deadline for whatever they can get. Charge the $8 million due him in ‘09 to Double Agent Ned Colletti’s credit card.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Jun 30, 2008 12:57 PM PDT   0 recs

I've become accustomed to life w/o Dave

I tried to remember his uniform number after reading your post and am unable to do so. I think it’s either 10 or 30 though.

I was THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Jun 30, 2008 1:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

May I become your devotee

*does this cult come with a fun hat?

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Jun 30, 2008 1:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I wantz subskribz 2 ur nwzpapr

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Jun 30, 2008 1:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Obviously...

... since you mentioned “bullet points”, there needs to be a duel.

yeah, well, the whole world stinks, francine -- so get used to it!

by satyricrash on Jun 30, 2008 1:03 PM PDT   0 recs

There needs to be a different catchphrase.

Because “bulletpoints” is conjuring up Madonna in all her tacky , conical glory.

NL West TempestTeapot - An ENTIRE DIVISION under .500!

by victor frankenstein on Jun 30, 2008 6:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

mmm"bulletpoints"

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Jul 1, 2008 10:28 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Durham and Aurilia

I wonder how the Giants would have fared if Durham and AUrilia had hit like this last year in that Bonds filled lineup

[url=http://www.wazzel.com] Wazzel [/url] (prove your sports knowledge if you can)

by NeifiChicken on Jun 30, 2008 1:05 PM PDT   0 recs

The division was argueably the best in baseball last year

So I don’t think it would have made a difference.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jun 30, 2008 1:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Castilla, Castilla, Castilla

You will all come to know the one thing about Bochy that I truly despise.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Jun 30, 2008 1:05 PM PDT   0 recs

Ghoulish

As someone who has wished injury upon players before, I would like to defend myself. While it sounds terrible, it really is just an acceptance of the reality of the situation. For example, Vizquel needs to be benched and Burriss should play almost every day. This won’t happen unless Vizquel gets hurt. I don’t want him to get hurt, but the only way the Giants will do the right thing is if he is hurt.

Also, magic doesn’t exist so me wishing for something doesn’t actually do anything.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jun 30, 2008 1:06 PM PDT   0 recs

Marcello is a ghoul!

At least he’s not a troll.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Jun 30, 2008 1:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He's not?

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jun 30, 2008 1:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope, just sometimes an ass.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jun 30, 2008 2:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think he's a ghroll.

All-Father Watch: 1.26 ERA, 7 saves, 1.01 WHIP, 36 Ks in 35 2/3 IP

by EliminateMe on Jun 30, 2008 1:53 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

WITCH!!!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jul 1, 2008 2:43 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

My prediction? Pain.

I’m seeing Roberts starting in left 2 days a week and becoming Bochy’s #1 pinch-hitter.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Jun 30, 2008 1:17 PM PDT   0 recs

tangentally...
Before the season started, we had some kind of indication that the offense would be bad. That’s still true, even though it’s much, much better than expected. Heck, almost every non-shortstop is a league-average hitter.

Interesting that the hitting has been much better than expected, and yet we are not exactly a .500 team. Was the pitching over estimated to a greater extent than hitting underestimated? I actually think this is a bad sign for 2009 (maybe 2010 as well). If we can actually reduce the Giants line-up woes to a single sucking black hole as SS… and we are still playing .450 ball… how, exactly are we going to make a good team?

I mean we could replace Bocock/Burris/Vizquel with Jose Reyes 2008 and still only be 40-42. Anyone who points out that this would make us “Contenders in the NL West” will be taken out and shot.

I think many of us were laboring under the assumption that with a league-average offense, we would be a pretty good team. Fact is, the pitching + defense hasn’t been all that (8th in the NL in runs allowed—3rd in the NL West, and you can only blame so much on that on Zito)

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Jun 30, 2008 1:17 PM PDT   0 recs

First thought that comes to mind. . .

Is bullpen. How many ND’s do these guys have?? I mean, the starting pitching (save for Zito) has been decent if I recall (haven’t looked at numbers in a while) but it seems to me that we’re finding defined roles for people, ferreting out those who will not be in our future, e.g., chulk, and such. Should tach be a lh specialist? Where is hinshaw comfortable, who set’s up? Merkin when he comes back? etc. . . I really think that with some definition of say a 7th, 8th, 9th innings taken care of, those 1 run games will be much better.

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Jun 30, 2008 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Defense is a big problem. We are one of the worst defensive teams in baseball. All the talk of pitching and defense and the Giants F.O. somehow still missed half of that equation.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jun 30, 2008 1:22 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1!

This squad is about as close to being good defensively has its batters are to being a power offense. And that is a double bad mojo whammy that a team does not just shrug off. Or do people think that nice little run at the end the May just happened by accident instead of because the Giants were playing teams with a similar level "d" ( thus freeing arms, for a bit, from one of the whammies) ?

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Jun 30, 2008 1:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ahem....

blame the infield, especially the right side (and possibly the catchers with too many passed balls)
the outfield defense has been good, with Lewis as one of the top defensive left fielders, Winn as a good right fielder, and Rowand as an above average center fielder, according to multiple different defensive metrics (e.g. The Hardball Times Revised Zone Rating and # of plays made out of zone, and John Dewan’s Plus/Minus rating)

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

by baetown415 on Jun 30, 2008 1:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No doubt, you put Durham and Castillo out there everyday and what do you expect?

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jun 30, 2008 1:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Outfield is great right now, and will be even better next year with more coaching from Rowand to Lewis and, soon, Nate Dawg.

IF – Jose is pretty awful, Omar is great but plays defense on offense, Ray makes 1 awesome play for every 7 bad ones and the only defensive upgrade to him is Buriss, and Bowker just needs time.

If the rooks are getting time and learning their positions at the MLB level im fine with it, even that awful play by Horwitz a few days ago.

by Giant Voodoo on Jun 30, 2008 1:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No clue

I think he’s pretty okay…. like you said to the eye he looks decent. With JT Snow close and Bowker beign a rook he might turn into an above average defender with a .290, 20 HR guy. I’m more concerned about his BB/SO ratio than defense.

by Giant Voodoo on Jun 30, 2008 2:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

he’s a 2 in Dewan’s +/, but that rates him as a “B -” right now

The Hardball Times RZR has him at .737 (below league average) with only 7 plays made outside of zone (interestingly enough, they rate Aurilia lower than Bowker in RZR).

The guy’s learning on the fly though and just from eyeballing it, he looks a lot better defensively lately

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

by baetown415 on Jun 30, 2008 2:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

he’s a – 2, sorry

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

by baetown415 on Jun 30, 2008 2:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

His stats on THT aren’t too great, but he doesn’t even qualify yet for their leaderboard. Given his limited time at 1B in his career, and the limited sample size we’re working with this year, I don’t know how much we can conclude.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jun 30, 2008 2:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He has made a few nice pick's over there

Especially on liners that would have gone for extras

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jun 30, 2008 4:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for a while and haven’t had any issues with him so far.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

by marcello on Jun 30, 2008 5:20 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If I am honestly looking at it I have no bitch about our outfield "d".

Yet it does have flaws. Have we gone a 3 game series yet were the regular starting three has not given up extra 90 on their throws? If the Giants were scoring like 5 runs a game not as big of a deal. If they were more constant on converting infield groundballs it outs would also mitigate it also. But if a team is counting on your "D" to prevent enough runs to make up for a lack of fire power it is not good enough yet.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Jun 30, 2008 2:47 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Good point, range-wise the outfield is very good but they have made a lot of mistakes with their arms.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 30, 2008 2:49 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Just incase I come off as too negative.

I am just trying compare our starting three O.F. to a really good ( maybe elite ) "d". The type that just strangles teams to death if they don’t go deep or are really good at using the walk & small ball methods. In some ways its an unfair standard for a rebuilding year. And to be honest I did not expect them to be as close to it as they are. But because the Giants made "D" their mantra this off season I feel I am justified in bring it up.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Jun 30, 2008 3:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The offense is better than expected

but it’s still pretty bad.

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 1:26 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The pitching was not overestimated, in my opinion. Lincecum has been, if anything, better than we thought he’d be, so +1. Cain has been worse, so -1. Sanchez has been way better, +2. Zito has been way worse, -2. Bullpen has been mediocre. The way I see it, our expectations overall were about right, even if we were off on individual players.

The reason why we’re overperforming on offense and still sucking in the W-L column is because we had no margin for error- if everything clicked, we were going to be a team that could be taken seriously. If it didn’t click, we were going to set a new standard for craptacular. I think the .500 expectations were obviously off-base, but hey, everything clicked, and we can be taken somewhat seriously. Hell, we finally won a series with the A’s, and we did it with style!

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Jun 30, 2008 1:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

You’ve nailed the pluses and minuses of the starting pitching, but failed to mention that having to start Misch instead of Correia turned out to be a pretty big minus.

2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!

by Goofus on Jun 30, 2008 1:44 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That probably cost us quite a few games.

I’m also not sure we can’t blame it on Zito.

The combination of Zito / Misch is responsible for a LOT of earned runs as well as a good # of losses.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Jun 30, 2008 1:46 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

this post

is meaningless without Giants runs scored in those 34 games.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Jun 30, 2008 2:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

No

Just less meaningful

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Jun 30, 2008 2:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ok smart guy

maybe I meant MY post!

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Jun 30, 2008 2:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

While we're all lovey-dovey about Fred Lewis

Hasn’t is occurred to anyone that he may be over-performing, even as a league-average LF? I’ve seen a few stats that say that he’s not really this “good,” such as this

I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..

by lmaozedong on Jun 30, 2008 1:21 PM PDT   0 recs

doubt it

I have no idea what your link said because it doesn’t lead to anything, but his minor league stats are pretty much on par with what he’s been doing in the majors. He’s been a good contact hitter with the ability to walk a lot. And it really doesn’t matter if he can keep it up in the majors or not. The point is we should be giving him a shot over Dave Roberts. Dave Roberts is old and is irrelevant to our future. Lewis might not be. If there’s a chance he could consistantly perform good enough to be our future everyday left fielder, then we should play him.

by boonitez on Jun 30, 2008 1:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

doubt it

I have no idea what your link said because it doesn’t lead to anything, but his minor league stats are pretty much on par with what he’s been doing in the majors. He’s been a good contact hitter with the ability to walk a lot. And it really doesn’t matter if he can keep it up in the majors or not. The point is we should be giving him a shot over Dave Roberts. Dave Roberts is old and is irrelevant to our future. Lewis might not be. If there’s a chance he could consistantly perform good enough to be our future everyday left fielder, then we should play him.

by boonitez on Jun 30, 2008 1:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

LALALA

I’M NOT LISTENING

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 1:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He still needs to be in instead of Dave Roberts.

Also, that link didn’t lead anywhere

Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.

by groug on Jun 30, 2008 1:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah it just lead us here

proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..

by Azmanz on Jun 30, 2008 1:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

ideally, you want more power in left than Lewis has provided. that said, the way Freddie’s performing this season is about the same as the past 2-3 years. which makes the Roberts signing even more indefensible

Adopted Giant: Aaron King

Wearing the crown by 2011. Or at least the LOOGY hat

by baetown415 on Jun 30, 2008 1:55 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with all of this...

but am I really beyond goulish to hope players get hurt? I mean it’s not my fault I hate Jeff Kent, A-rod, Derek Jeter, David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Dave Roberts, Ray Durham, Russell Martin, Jose Mesa, AJ Pierzynski, and Kosuke Fukudome…

by boonitez on Jun 30, 2008 1:22 PM PDT   0 recs

What's wrong with Fukudome?

or Manny for that matter…

I only have a signature because I recognize everyone else by their sigs, not their usernames..

by lmaozedong on Jun 30, 2008 1:23 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

the only reason he's going to the allstar game is because...

his last name spells out Fuck you do me. That’s the only reason he’s getting votes from anyone that’s not a Cubs fan. He doesn’t deserve to be there, especially not over Braun.

by boonitez on Jun 30, 2008 1:28 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

true

but I still hate that Cubs fans overrate the shit out of him. He’s not really that good.

by boonitez on Jun 30, 2008 1:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Big offseason acquisition + pretty hyped Japanese player + not sucking + Cubs fans.. It’s pretty much expected that he’ll get lots of votes.

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 1:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree. That a real good reason to hate him.

2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!

by Goofus on Jun 30, 2008 1:38 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Cubs fans are very hard to please. If the Fuck-You-Dome wasn’t producing, they would want him out on his ass along with anyone partially responsible for signing him. Thusly, I’m not too sure his high-proflle-ness is a cub fan thing, as much as it is an ESPN thing.

by toofruss on Jun 30, 2008 1:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Shouldn’t you be hating Cubs fans then? Also it’s not pronounced that way goldarnit.

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 1:31 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Going off on an All-star related tangent...

What’s with all the Brewers players ranking so high in the All-star voting? Jason Kendall in third place? I mean, seriously?

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jun 30, 2008 1:32 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I hate, hate, hate that AS appearances are considered important

when the voting system is such complete BS. I mean, you couldn’t design a worse system. Wow.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Jun 30, 2008 1:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, it’s pronounced Fuck You Dome, as in, “Welcome to the Fuck You Dome.” Actually, it’s not pronounced that way, but that’s how I likes it.

Neglectful father of David Quinowski

b