With Surprise, Comes Dissapointment
It has definitely been established on knbr 680 local radio progamming, espn television programming, along with numerous sports illustrated pre-season articles as a general consensus that this 2008 San Francisco Giants season, sadly, is all about re-tooling, evaluating, and determining which players, young or not, are fit for a near future competitive team as well as a long term CONSISTENT playoff team. The days of free agent quick fixes are long gone, and the new age of dealing stars towards the termination of their contracts for young studs in opposing minor league systems is here. Just take a peek at the turnaround in Cleveland, and the methods the Marlin front office has developed.
With that in mind, I'm extremely surprised with the offensive emergence of John Bowker, Manny Burriss (although his mother would get angry for not calling him Emmanuel, but Manny sounds cooler), Fred Lewis, and thus far re-surgent seasons of Richie Aurilia and Ray Durham (phew!). Not to mention the not so schizophrenic Jonathan Sanchez. I know and have come to accept the fact that this team isn't going anywhere, especially October, however, each day I want the Giants to win, I allow the game to affect my daily demeanor, and yes, I scoreboard watch in June.
On the other end of the spectrum, I must say, even with his recent solid performances, Matt Cain has absolutely dissapointed me this season. I ventured into this '08 campaign viewing Cain as the Ace of this Giants pitching staff. Just the traditional, rock and fire flame-throwing right hander who can shut down any team every night. Cain, in contrast, has been elevating his fastball, missing in when Molina sets up away and vice versa, hanging breaking balls to hitters and in situations in which he can't do so. That said, let's hope Zito isn't the only Giants starting pitcher to regain form we are used to seeing.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Ease your mind.
Cain will be fine. Allow me to direct you to this fanpost.
by Natto on Jun 27, 2008 12:52 AM PDT 0 recs
When I saw this fanpost I was going to do the same thing. Well done.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
Jun 27, 2008 1:08 PM PDT
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I don't see it
Now keep in mind that I am in the camp that believes Matt will do well the rest of the season. It’s just that I didn’t see much in the post we were referred to that indicates that.
I saw a very high fly ball rate, which could indicate that more home runs will follow. I saw an OPS that was about 100 points higher than that given up by Tim Lincecum, which IMO refutes the premise of the post, that Matt has been almost as good as Tim.
I agree with the conclusion, but I arrived at the conclusion by a different process of analysis.
I have no idea if that is good or bad. :)
by sharksrog on
Jun 27, 2008 5:29 PM PDT
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Tonight I wouldn’t take too seriously seeing as there was a significant rain delay.
He’s inconsistent but all young starters are. Omg Volquez got rocked tonight, he sucks too. Lincecum didn’t show no hit stuff last time out and threw over the catcher’s head like 3 times. These things happen. It took Josh Beckett like 6 seasons to finally approach the kind of potential that the Marlins expected of him when they drafted him, and it happened with another team. I’d still rather have Cain then the majority of the other starters in the league. Inconsistencies and all.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 27, 2008 3:19 AM PDT 0 recs
I think I love you.
So what am I so afraid of?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 27, 2008 3:26 AM PDT
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people in other cities treating you different because of your man love?
by positiveuphemism on
Jun 27, 2008 7:15 AM PDT
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You're afraid that you're not sure of
A love there is no cure for.
DFA all Giants over 34 years old.
by Mayor of 311 on
Jun 27, 2008 7:19 AM PDT
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Isn’t that what life is made of?
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on
Jun 27, 2008 9:42 AM PDT
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Though he is afraid to say
He’s never felt this way.
DFA all Giants over 34 years old.
by Mayor of 311 on
Jun 27, 2008 3:46 PM PDT
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Dammit, Mayor!!!
It’s ‘though it WORRIES him to say’!!! Get it RIGHT!!!
Again, from the top, for the Mayor’s benefit!
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on
Jun 27, 2008 3:58 PM PDT
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Aw, crap! You're right. Stupid brain.
DFA all Giants over 34 years old.
by Mayor of 311 on
Jun 27, 2008 4:13 PM PDT
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Though if you think that's bad, take a look at the Baron right below.
She thinks this is the best summation of the situation as she has read. Wow.
DFA all Giants over 34 years old.
by Mayor of 311 on
Jun 27, 2008 4:15 PM PDT
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Thank you. This is the best summation of the situation as I have read.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Jun 27, 2008 10:54 AM PDT
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Very good point!
Very good point, Hobbes! I hadn’t even thought about it.
by sharksrog on
Jun 27, 2008 5:30 PM PDT
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I’m tired of reading all the Matt Cain excuses. Mr. Clutch is correct, Matt Cain has stunk this year. You can’t keep making the age excuses for him, because he’s not a rookie, he’s now been here for awhile. You see Tim Lincecum and Jonathan Sanchez maturing before your very eyes in the ways a good young pitcher is supposed to improve, and you see Matt Cain headed in the opposite direction. I’ve heard nonsense about his decreased velocity being due to his attempting to improve his control and bring his pitch count down, but all it has done is made him very hittable, even to the freaking Jamie Carrolls of the world, and you know what? His pitch count hasn’t come down one bit. He can certainly turn it around, but it’s time to stop giving him a pass and time to really become concerned. I think alot of posters are blinded by some kind of Matt Cain love and can’t see the obvious. Right now Matt Cain might be one of the most overrated pitchers in baseball. Half the pitchers on the Giants’ staff throw harder than he does right now. He certainly hasn’t been a disaster, so I’m not advocating trading him or sending him to Fresno, but warning lights are flashing all over the place, and I’m sick of reading, “he’s just a kid, he’ll be fine.” In terms of big league experience, he’s not a kid and I’m not that sure he’ll be fine. If he’s not blowing hitters away with his heat his other pitches aren’t good enough to get it done.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jun 27, 2008 5:33 AM PDT 0 recs
Stunk? Seriously?! Matt Cain has been a slightly above average pitcher this year. He’s got a K/BB of 2.20, FIP of 3.93, WHIP of 1.34, DERA of 4.45 (4.5 = league average) and ERA+ of 96. Not great, but slightly above average, and definitely not bad.
He’s become so “very hittable” that he’s striking out 8.29 batters per 9 innings (it was 7.34 last year) and is still giving up less hits per inning than your average pitcher.
The fact that Lincecum and Sanchez are “maturing” is irrelevant. The fact that half the staff throws harder than him is both irrelevant and wrong, since only Lincecum throws harder.
Cain is having a disappointing season so far, but it hasn’t been that bad, and it’s not even the All-Star break. In 2006 Cain’s ERA was over 5 at the break, and everyone was really worried, but he turned out fine. I agree that there’s some reasons to be worried, but people are really exaggerating.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on
Jun 27, 2008 7:28 AM PDT
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as far as throwing harder than Cain, not that it really matters much but
im guessing Wilson, Valdez(when he’s back) and Sadler, Hinshaw and T. Walker might be close….
by slojoe on
Jun 27, 2008 11:38 AM PDT
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I'm pretty much feeling the same way.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
Jun 27, 2008 8:10 AM PDT
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I disagree with you that “people are exaggerating.” My point was that it’s the opposite, with people always saying “he’s only 23, he’s just going through a tough time, and he’ll be fine.” It’s certainly NOT the time to panic, but to simply dismiss it with a shrug of the shoulders is not right either. You talk about Matt being above average, but is that what we’ve projected for Matt Cain?? He’s not supposed to be merely above average, he’s supposed to take his place among the game’s elite and he is simply not doing it. Tim Lincecum is becoming the pitcher we thought he would be, and so is Jonathan Sanchez. Matt Cain is not only not becoming what we’ve expected, he’s backsliding. If you’re satisfied with Matt Cain as being a useful number three starter, well that’s not what we all hoped for when he came through the minors and came up here at the age of 20. We thought future Cy Young, future hall of famer. And you better check the mph’s on him when he pitches if he you think only Tim Lincecum is hitting higher numbers than he is. Both Sadler and Hinshaw were throwing harder than him last night, and we all know that Brian Wilson does as well. Toss in Merkin Valdez when he returns and that puts Cain in the middle. You can dismiss it on the grounds that they’re just throwing one inning and don’t have to conserve energy, but that didn’t stop Cain from consistently throwing 96-98mph before this season. I wouldn’t have traded Matt Cain for anyone before this season, and now there’s a few dozen guys I would trade him for. Will he eventually right himself and become the pitcher we all thought he could be?? I sure hope so, but it would be wrong to not seriously question it right now.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on
Jun 27, 2008 9:04 AM PDT
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don't know if you meant to reply to me...
but I was agreeing with your first post.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
Jun 27, 2008 9:22 AM PDT
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I agree with rxmeister, and Gore... You're SO f'ing wrong!!!
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on
Jun 27, 2008 9:47 AM PDT
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I agree with all of you. You’re all wrong.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on
Jun 27, 2008 11:02 AM PDT
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I was replying to Cookyman, although I did think that your post was in agreement with him and not me. I’m actually surprised that posters for the most part agree with me. Matt Cain usually gets the benefit of the doubt. I’m glad that everybody around here thinks for themselves and doesn’t swallow the bullcrap expounded by guys like Bochy and Sabean on a daily basis.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on
Jun 27, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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Wait… what?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 27, 2008 3:37 PM PDT
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Again, It’s not about giving him the benefit of the doubt. Read my post bellow – It’s not like I’m just saying “he’s 23, give him a break”. I put some thought into this and gave my best shot at serious analysis.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on
Jun 28, 2008 1:57 AM PDT
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Maybe it’s because I expect Cain to be better than he is… But he ALWAYS gets himself into trouble in at least one inning, hits an inning or two where he can’t find the strike zone and throws WAY too many pitches, gives up too many runs, and forces me to turn off the radio because I can’t handle listening to his mediocrity anymore.
I’m to the point now where I’m no longer concerned about whether or not the team will score for Cain. I’m concerned about how many runs he’s going to give up. Will it only be four, or will he give up six or seven?
Don’t get me wrong, I do think he’ll be okay and he’ll show that improvement we all expect to see. Unfortunately, I really expected this to be a breakout season for him, and my suspicion now is that he’ll break out when he’s no longer a Giant.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on
Jun 27, 2008 9:59 AM PDT
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A few clarifications
My point was that it’s the opposite, with people always saying "he’s only 23, he’s just going through a tough time, and he’ll be fine."
Well I guess we’re talking about different people.
He’s not supposed to be merely above average, he’s supposed to take his place among the game’s elite and he is simply not doing it….We thought future Cy Young, future hall of famer.
I never really thought of Cain as a HOFer. And It’s not Cain’s fault that that’s what you hoped for him. Yes he’s been disappointing, but it’s only the all-star break, and he hasn’t been that bad.
And you better check the mph’s on him when he pitches if he you think only Tim Lincecum is hitting higher numbers than he is. Both Sadler and Hinshaw were throwing harder than him last night, and we all know that Brian Wilson does as well. Toss in Merkin Valdez when he returns and that puts Cain in the middle. You can dismiss it on the grounds that they’re just throwing one inning and don’t have to conserve energy, but that didn’t stop Cain from consistently throwing 96-98mph before this season.
I thought you meant the starting rotation. My bad. Hinshaw doesn’t throw as hard as Cain does, but yeah, Wilson, Sadler and Valdez do. So? It’s not he’s fault we’ve got a bullpen full of power pitchers. And it’s not like this is new – all of these guys throw harder than Cain ever did. Cain never threw 96-98mph consistently. His average fastball velocity over the last 4 years: 93.2, 93.4, 93.2, 92.5. He’s lost 0.7mph compared to 2007, but it’s not like he went from throwing 96 to throwing 91.
Tim Lincecum is becoming the pitcher we thought he would be, and so is Jonathan Sanchez.
Again, this has nothing to do with Cain.
I absolutely agree that we shouldn’t dismiss his problems just because he’s young. Wanna hear my two cents?
There are four main aspects to pitching: K’s, BB’s, HR’s and BABIP. Cain has always been above average (but not great) in getting K’s, and bellow average (but not terrible) in not allowing BB’s, so his K/BB has always been at or slightly above league average. The main reason Cain has been an above average pitcher throughout his career is the last two aspects – Cain has been great at not allowing HR’s, and pretty good at keeping a low BABIP. However, there’s two problems with this:
A) Usually, pitchers maintain a low HR rate by getting a lot of GB’s. Cain, however, has always been one of the most extreme FB pitchers around. The reason he hasn’t given up a lot of HR’s is that he’s always kept a very low HR/FB ratio. Problem is, keeping a low HR/FB is a very questionable art. Most of the people who’ve studied this think it’s not really a skill, and that it’s just a function of your home park and mainly luck.
B) Most pitchers can’t really control their BABIP all that much. Usually it’s just a function of your defense and, again, luck.
This year Cain’s K/BB ratio has actually improved to a career high 2.20. He’s pitching less effectively because his HR/FB and BABIP went up and are currently around league average. The question is – what was the fluke? This half season or maybe Cain’s first two and a half seasons? Is Cain really doing something different this year, or is this just regression to the mean?* Only time will tell. Hopefully Cain can maintain his high K% and continue to lower his BB%, so he won’t have to relay on BABIP and HR/FB as much.
*(Sorry, that’s 3 questions).
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on
Jun 27, 2008 12:14 PM PDT
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Wanna hear my two cents?
No… Oh, you gave it anyway. Well then why even ask??? =)
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on
Jun 27, 2008 12:20 PM PDT
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Wow this is my longest comment ever.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on
Jun 27, 2008 12:21 PM PDT
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GB Pitchers have higher BABIP (although it will vary depending on their IF defense)
FB Pitchers have lower BABIP (although it will vary depending on their OF defense)
Cain is an extreme FB pitcher, which is why he generally has had low BABIP
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on
Jun 27, 2008 1:40 PM PDT
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True.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on
Jun 27, 2008 1:46 PM PDT
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Give Cain a fricking break: he's 23 years old
Tell me how polished and mature you were at 23. And I don’t know how old you are, but are you telling me that you are perfect now and don’t repeat any mistakes? If not, then cut Cain a break.
Tell me of any pitcher in the history of baseball who didn’t have their version of the fricking Jamie Carrolls of the world.
It’s one game, one night, pitchers have also been known to have a bad game, nobody is perfect in baseball. Take a breath. Chill.
Not that he’s as good, but Koufax struggled to figure things out for 4 full seasons of starting, 6 seasons as a major leaguer (bonus babies had to be MLB rostered in those days), he was 25 when he finally figured things out, 26 when he started crushing the competition. If you were a fan of his back then, you would have been complaining for a full two seasons before he figured it out if you started when Koufax was 23. And he wasn’t even that good a pitcher to start out, Cain has Koufax outpitched on an age comparison in a higher scoring environment today versus the early 60’s.
That said, there is no guarantee that he will ever be “fine”. But he, over the past two seasons, have been one of the best pitchers in the league, period, no age consideration, no pass for age. Period. So have a little faith that the Cain of the past two years will show up. For whatever reason, he has been a slot starter each season. When he finally puts it all together, he will be as good early in the season as he is at the back end.
For now, enjoy his good games and consider it all part of the learning curve when he screws up. Most people his age are still struggling in A-ball trying to figure things out. Cain is in the big show and better than most.
For example, not to pick on him, but Jesse English signed the same time as Cain and had a better first pro season. He’s still in San Jose trying to put it all together. This year looks promising, but he still has not gone through the gaunlet of AA and AAA. Same age. Nothing to be ashamed of, most prospects never ever get a cup of coffee in the majors, let alone star in it like Cain has for the last two years.
So Cain is fine. If his ERA were like Zito’s right now (not to pick on Barry), then I could understand some worry over things, but Cain is right around where I would like him to be, which is at least a #2 starter overall. Among starters who have started most of the season, he has the 62nd best ERA. With 30 teams, that would make him 2nd among #3 hitters (for simplicity, I like to call #1’s the top 30 ERA, #2’s the second 30 ERA, etc.). That is close enough for me.
Plus, it’s a building year anyway, we are not really meant to compete for the division title. If not for the collapse of all the other teams in this division, we wouldn’t be so close right now. So don’t worry about Cain unless he’s getting battered around every start by the Jamie Carrolls of the world. Every game is different, there’s sometimes somebody who has your number that game. It happens.
So lay off Cain, he’s fine. Worry about Correia, maybe, he hasn’t done much, but as the #5 he isn’t expected to do a lot. But after his end of season run last season, I was hoping for more from him. I am hoping it was just the injury waiting to happen that slowed his start, and that it is rust that is keeping him back now. But he needs to put in a good showing the rest of this season if he wants to stay a starter like he hopes to do.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on
Jun 27, 2008 10:21 AM PDT
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oh yeah, he's only 23 - hear that all the time, but the thing is
he’s apparently had excellent coaching since at least high school – he had some former major league pitcher working iwth him when he was younger, so its not like he’s going to learn a hell of a lot more…
you may have to consider him the equivalent of a 25 or 26 y.o. pitcher in terms of experience and knowledge….
everyone here is rooting for Cain, it just seems less likley that he’s going to be the player we thought he was…
by slojoe on
Jun 27, 2008 11:55 AM PDT
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This seems crazy to me. “His coaching has been awesome so he should have the experience of a 30 year old!”
You can have all the coaching in the world, but he’s still only been pitching for a limited time. I had awesome coaching when I was learning how to drive, but it still took me five years to learn through experience that I needed to start braking about 50 feet sooner, that it wasn’t a good idea to go over 80 no matter how safe I felt behind the wheel, or that I should accept that I’m going to get cut-off instead of trying to sabatoge the asshole every time. Not that I hadn’t been coached in all of these thing ad nauseum. I’d just never gotten beaten by them before, so I unconsciously processed them as exaggerations. I know it’s ridiculous to compare driving to pitching, but the idea is the same, that coaching does not just make you good by virtue of being good. I’d be willing to guess that most major league pitchers have had some very good coaching for a very long time. Coaching IS NOT development. The two are not the same.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 27, 2008 1:29 PM PDT
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that it wasn’t a good idea to go over 80 no matter how safe I felt behind the wheel
Go back to Russia, hippie.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
by groug on
Jun 27, 2008 2:20 PM PDT
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Hey, when your car starts shaking violently at 65, it’s a good idea not to push it too hard over 80.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 27, 2008 2:24 PM PDT
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That's not what she said.
DFA all Giants over 34 years old.
by Mayor of 311 on
Jun 27, 2008 3:50 PM PDT
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what a fucking load.....
he’s had coaching since the age of 11, starting with Maurice Gozzo…..
and he’s pitched 850 innings since the beginning of 2004, hardly inexperienced and hardly your average 23 y.o. pitcher…
J.C. the lenght that some people on this site will go to to distort the truth because they dont want to see it….ah, keep your head in the sand….
by slojoe on
Jun 28, 2008 1:41 PM PDT
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I love it when people resort to “YOU JUST DON’T WANT TO SEE THE TRUTH!!! I’M THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THE TRUTH!”
No. People have explained to you why we aren’t as worried about Matt Cain as you clearly are and you are pretty much ignoring all of it. He’s not a lock to become an ace pitcher, no one is, but I really don’t see any reasons to be completely down on him at the moment like so many seem to be (except for what appears to be a whole lot of impatience and unreasonable expectations.)
To be honest, I feel a lot better about Matt Cain today than I did at the same time last year, even though last year he had a lower ERA to this point of the season. He’s upped his strikeout rate and lowered his walk rate. His home run rate is higher than you would expect, even for an extreme flyball pitcher like him. He’s had a few rough outings this year, but he’s also had quite a few good ones. He’s inconsistent. He’s not the first young pitcher to be that way.
And I seriously doubt that the level of coaching he’s received over his career so far is significantly different than the level of coaching many other inconsistent young pitchers have received.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on
Jun 28, 2008 2:29 PM PDT
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no, some fucking idiot distorts what the hell i said - i said 25-26, HE SAYS 30!!
you like that?? if you want to argue my points fine, IF YOU WANT TO FLAT OUT LIE AND DISTORT THEN BOTHER SOMEOBNE ELSE!!!
by slojoe on
Jun 28, 2008 6:51 PM PDT
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OMG COACHING!!! OMG INNINGS!!!
Did you even see what I said? Coaching is NOT development. Strict experience is NOT development (experience + time more closely approximates development). He could pitch 300 innings this year and it won’t mean that we should expect him to be better than if he pitched only pitched 200 or 150. Some things come with TIME, not innings. Some things come with TIME, not coaching. Development is largely dependent on time, that’s why so much of athletic projections is tied to age rather than playing time.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 28, 2008 3:58 PM PDT
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Pain + Time = Comedy
DFA all Giants over 34 years old.
by Mayor of 311 on
Jun 28, 2008 4:25 PM PDT
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if you cant argue the points and instead choose to distort and exaggerate what the hell
i said then dont bother to comment on my post, you fucking idiot….i said he’s 23 with the experience and coaching of someone who’s 25 or 26 and you make it 30…thats the problem with some of you idiots on here, cant deal with the goddamn truth, have to twist and distort everything….nobodys going to give a goddamn arm and a leg for Cain anymore….why dont get a fucking clue and check around the league and see what the real opinion on Cain is instead of what you wish it was…..
by slojoe on
Jun 28, 2008 6:47 PM PDT
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So my propensity for exaggeration has clearly gotten in the way here. My point is and has always been that he he can have the coaching and experience of anybody, but HE is still only 2, and that counts for more than you seem willing to give it credit for.
When I said 30, that was in the context of hyperbole. Maybe I should have said 60 and it would have made more sense, whatever. It’s not distortion. It’s a rhetorical device.
Anyway, whatever. I’ll start over. POINT by POINT. No exaggerations. No confusing rhetoric. No weak (or strong) similes. No whining.
he’s apparently had excellent coaching since at least high school – he had some former major league pitcher working iwth him when he was younger, so its not like he’s going to learn a hell of a lot more…
First of all, lots of major league players have had excellent coaching for a long time. These guys are playing at an elite level. He’s one of the top, like 200 starting pitchers in the nation (30 teams x Five starters = 150, + reasonable error approaches 200). That’s an exclusive club of guy who have by and large had VERY good coaching during their careers.
But even assuming (and it’s a BIG assumption) that the coaching Cain has gotten exceeds that of his peers in both quality and length, I’m not sure how the simple fact of that naturally equates to him being better than the other guy. It seems like a fallacy to me to suppose that coaching equals results. I’m not sure that has ever been true. I’m not arguing that coaching equals not getting results. That would be asinine. Coaching CAN lead to results, but it is not a necessary cause for the effect, and when results don’t show up it’s likewise not necessarily a failing of the coaching.
And when you say it’s not like he’s going to learn a heck of a lot more, I just don’t see how you can say that with a straight face when you don’t even have to look back an entire year to see Cain actively learning new things. He might have heard all the advice in the world, but that doesn’t mean he’s learned it yet, and that doesn’t mean that it works for him. There are things he can only find out by trying them for himself at the major league level, and he’s VISIBLY still learning those things. He not going to learn a hell of a lot more? That’s just naive.
you may have to consider him the equivalent of a 25 or 26 y.o. pitcher in terms of experience and knowledge….
I’ve oviously been arguing that this isn’t true, but I think there is a light by which it is true. And that is that Cain is pitching a lot like a good 25 or 26 year old pitcher will. He is ahead of the curve. Maybe some of the things that you’re talking about actually account for why Cain is pitching in the major leagues at 23, rather than at 25 or 26. Maybe without all this coaching or experience, he wouldn’t be making his debut for another year. That doesn’t mean that his peak is going to be in his 25-26 years (which would be the equivalent of the 27-28 year old seasons of a 25-26 year old pitcher). Even if we look at Cain’s results in the terms of a 25-26 year old, his peak is still statistically most likely to come around his ACTUAL 27-28 year old seasons. The fact that he has the results of a 25 year old pitcher DOES NOT make him a 25 year old pitcher. Again, this is a question of development. Players are almost universally physically and mentally underdeveloped at the age of 23. This is COMPLETELY independent of both coaching and experience. This is the nature of development. You can’t assume the development curve of a 26 year old for a 23 year old based strictly on the fact that the 23 year old started earlier. It does not work that way. If it worked that way, Joe Nathan would be the pitching equivalent of something like a 24 year old right now. If it worked that way, Rick Ankiel would be in low A learning to hit major league pitching. It does not work that way. Repeat: does not.
he’s had coaching since the age of 11, starting with Maurice Gozzo…..
See above. I don’t think I need to repeat myself. Also, what makes Maurice Gozzo so special? The fact that he played? Oooh, shiny.
and he’s pitched 850 innings since the beginning of 2004, hardly inexperienced and hardly your average 23 y.o. pitcher…
This essentially comes down to the same argument. The reasons to be optimistic about Cain improving on what he’s done almost universally have to do with development. 850 innings is nice (and VERY misleading on your part since he’s only thrown about 542 in the majors), and it’s surely accelerated his development, but it isn’t the same AS development. Jonathan Sanchez has thrown less than 500 professional innings in his career (and less than 300 ML innings), so then by the time he’s thrown 850 innings, he’s going to be awesome, right? It’s another care of “it doesn’t work that way.” You clearly want it to work that way, but it just simple does not. You have to pitch years, not innings. Your body has to have time to grow into a 25 year old pitcher. Your mental state changes as much between your 22-27 years as it did between your 17-22 years. Experience + TIME.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not putting blinders on about Cain’s season. He’s had a fairly frustrating season. He’s had a disappointing season. But he has absolutely NOT had a season that in any convincing way indicates he won’t get better. That doesn’t make any sense.
So where am I taking you out of context here?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 28, 2008 8:06 PM PDT
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I just love seeing posts from people who lack the intellectual capability of dealing with contrary evidence and have no better response than “you fucking idiot.”
People have laid out the case for Cain. The guy put up a 122 ERA+ last year, and his K/BB ratio is better than ever. Yes, some of the relievers throw harder than he does. No shit? They are relievers. They pitch an inning at a time.
You can’t deal with the “goddamn truth” because your intellectual deficiency leaves you incapable of gleaning and understanding the truth. Cain has been a league-average or above starter this year after being well above that last year and the year before. He has 542 1/3 IP that say he is well above-average and 105 1/3 IP this year that say he is merely an above-average starter.
People are saying that Cain has a track record, and that he is going to be fine. They provide reasonable arguments and evidence for that, and you seem to think that anything less than “Matt Cain in the HOF” is a disappointment. You also claim that because Matt Cain has had quality coaching since he was 11, he should be the best pitcher in baseball and beyond any disappointment. Really? If my sister had that coaching, should she be the best pitcher in baseball?
It makes little difference whether said coaching is the equivalent, in your little mind, of having the experience of a 26 year old or a 30 year old, whether you can see that or not.
You lack the credibility here to get away with attacking other posters and spouting bullshit. As far as I am concerned, you should be apologizing.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on
Jun 29, 2008 12:22 AM PDT
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I haven’t seen people making excuses, though. I’ve seen people giving reasons.
There are very good reasons to expect that Cain is going to struggle this year and probably next year as well. There are very good reasons to expect that he won’t put it together until the second half of his twenties.
We’re not dismissing the fact that Cain is struggling. He’s obviously and visibly struggling. We’re just not making a big shit over three wonderfully sample sized months of fairly effective inconsistency in a guy’s early career.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 27, 2008 1:19 PM PDT
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Cain is not your average 23 year old pitcher though. He’s been in a major league rotation since the end of 2005. A pitcher with that much major league experience should not be making the mistakes that your average 23 year old pitcher makes. And a 23 year old pitcher should not be losing velocity like he is. Is he going to be another Barry Zito in a couple of years, only even worse, because he doesn’t have the change or curve that Zito has??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on
Jun 27, 2008 3:36 PM PDT
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I’m not saying that he’s our average 23 year old pitcher. But even your very good, expect a lot out of them 23 year old pitchers don’t just have a history of not struggling through their early 20s. It seems unreasonably on a lot of levels to expect otherwise.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
Jun 27, 2008 3:39 PM PDT
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Everyone else has written you an essay, I'm just going to give you a big old
NAH.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on
Jun 27, 2008 3:54 PM PDT
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I agree with a lot, and disagree with a lot
I agree with a lot of what you said here, Mark—and also disagree with a lot.
Matt Cain HASN’T stunk this year. He has pitched no worse than the level of a #3 starter, and one could argue that he’s pretty close to a #2. Would we like better? Of course. Is Matt capable of better? Almost certainly. But has he stunk? No way!
You say Matt Cain is heading in the opposite direction of Tim Lincecum and Jonathan Sanchez, but I see his performance as more of a temporary blip than as a case of moving in the wrong direction. This month Matt’s WHIP has been 1.31. Last June it was 1.36, and he was about to post a 1.81 WHIP in July! Where were you LAST year? :)
You say Matt’s pitch count hasn’t come down “one bit.” Certainly there hasn’t been a night-and-day difference, but Matt has reduced his pitches per inning from 17.34 in 2006 to 16.76 in 2007 to 16.57 this year.
You say Matt might be one of the most overrated pitchers in baseball. I agree—although I might add that I feel you are UNDERRATING him a bit now.
When I said after Matt’s first start that his lack of swing-through stuff had me thinking he might be “only” at #2 starter instead of a #1, I suspect you thought I was nuts. Now, of course, you KNOW that I am nuts—but I still think it would be prudent to cut Matt a little slack here. I think there is an above-average chance you will feel quite a bit better about Matt at the end of the season than you feel now.
Last season through the end of July, Matt’s K rate was a very average 6.20. So far this season he has improved it by over two strikeouts per nine, to 8.29. Matt’s walk rate through the end of July last year was 4.50. This season he has reduced it by nearly three quarters of a walk, to 3.76.
A year ago I was warning you that Matt wasn’t really pitching as well as it looked like he was. This season I am going to tell you that he is pitching better than you think.
The question I will ask is, assuming Matt bounces back well the rest of the season and finishes with an ERA below 4.00, would you have the guts to trade him? Or would you look at his usual strong second half and feel he had turned the corner and is too valuable to trade?
I think you would trade him. But I suspect there are others who at that point wouldn’t—even if they aren’t opposed to the idea right now.
by sharksrog on
Jun 27, 2008 5:53 PM PDT
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Indians
You know, I’ve been thinking a lot about Cleveland lately. In many ways, they are the face or the blueprint of how to do rebuilding right. In 2002, Mark Shapiro took over the reigns of the team that had been the power of their division for nearly a decade, saw that there were troubled times ahead and chose to get out ahead of the curve so that they could compete in “2004-2005.”
It’s now 2008 and it’s reasonable to start evaluating what they accomplished. In those ‘04 and ‘05 seasons that they were looking ahead to they went 80-82 and then the big leap to 93-69 (narrowly missing the playoffs).
Then in ‘06 a major step back, followed by a team that came 1game from the World Series in ‘07. But now in ‘08 there seem to be some strong indications that this “run” is already near an end. Travis Hafner (owed $57 million from 2009-2012) is now long past slumping and deep into “where did my career go” territory and surprisingly, Victor Martinez appears to be following him there (in Martinez’ case with the help of numerous nicks and owies that come with being a catcher). A major decision is looming with Martinez who has a 7 million dollar club option for 2010 coming that the team will certainly not pick up if his health and production don’t improve dramatically.
Worse yet, there’s all sorts of pitching issues coming in the near future. They appear resolved to have to move Sabathia. And a significant amount of the roster is coming up for FA (with or without club opitons) around 2010 (including for instance, Cliff Lee, Rafael Bettancourt, Jake Westbrook, Jonny Peralta, Delucci, Kobayashia, etc.).
There’s really no question that Shapiro did a great job of acquiring talent with the deals he made in 2002 and I think you can say that his rebuild was a model job. But there is a question at this point whether “tear-down/rebuild” worked. It has produced two winning seasons and one playoff appearance in 7 years and it’s now extremely questionable (if not doubtful) that he successfully set them up for a period of sustained competitiveness (which was the goal for the tear-down in the first place). At the same time they lost well over 1 million fans from the halcyon days of the 90s—even last year’s’ near pennant winner only brought in 2.2 million fans.
So the question, I think if you’re a Cleveland fan, can legitimately be asked at this point: isn’t it possible that they would have done just as well or better over the last 7 years if they had never torn down at all?
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jun 27, 2008 6:26 AM PDT 0 recs
I dunno. Cleveland has dropped from in the top 5 in payroll to the bottom ten over this run. Seems like even with missteps like the Hafner extension, they can afford to throw some money at the problems in the offseason.
One area where Shapiro definetly gets a “D” is bullpen construction. I’ve always wondered why cleveland can’t have good bullpens two years in a row, when the Twins and Padres always seem to have half a dozen quality arms in the pen.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on
Jun 27, 2008 7:20 AM PDT
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If they're going to throw money at the problem
it seems like throwing it CC’s way might be a good first step. Frankly, I’ve said this for a while now, with all the cash that MLB.com, DirectTV, Comcast, and XM are bringing in right now, it looks like all 30 clubs could easily field $125-$150 million payrolls and still be turning a profit. The problem right now is more a sparcity of talent to spend all that money on, rather than lack of funds for the talent on hand.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on
Jun 27, 2008 8:12 AM PDT
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i heard the numbers on MLB.com or MLB.tv, etc. a while ago
i thought it was like $12-$15 mil per club income?
by slojoe on
Jun 27, 2008 11:59 AM PDT
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In 2007 alone
it earned approximately $3 billion in revenue. Divided 30 ways that’s roughly 100 mil. Not all of it’s profit of course and some goes to the mlb offices. On the other hand, it’s a growing concern and last year was probably just a cup in the bucket of where it’s headed. It’s way more than $15 mil per club, though it is entirely possible that that number was used in the bookkeeping.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on
Jun 27, 2008 12:58 PM PDT
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I’ve never liked the strategy of tearing a team down before it really falls apart, because you never know what’s going to happen. If they had kept it together another year or two they might have had some kind of St. Louis Cardinals type year and won themselves a world series. Unless you’re going to have a Yankees or Red Sox type payroll, it’s almost impossible to be in the mix every year, so you might as well fully enjoy it while it lasts. Now, as you’ve said, it’s about time for them to tear it down again, and they have no titles to show for it. By the way, the Indian announcers said last night that they’re going to take one last run at signing Sabathia before they trade him at the deadline, so maybe they’re not ready to fully rebuild just yet.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on


