Interesting Cain/Lincecum Blurb
by AngelWillSaveUs on Jun 19, 2008 3:57 PM PDT
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From Tim Kurkjian in ESPN the Mag:
Tim Lincecum is so good that a Giants teammate says his success on the mound has actually hindered Matt Cain's progress-because Cain is trying too hard to keep up with Lincecum.
Anyone believe this? I don't. Personally, I think too much is being read into Cain's slow start, which seems to be an annual occurance. Anyone think there might be some truth behind this?
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I do think Cain is in a weird spot
Zito is paid ace money.
Lincecum is a superstar youngster.
Cain was supposed to be both. Pile that on top of last season, and he’s got more baggage than just about anyone. Frankly, I think he’ll be fine, but I don’t blame him if he’s got some mental shit to sort through.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
no no all backwards
Lincecum and Cain are suppose to inspire each other to greatness via friendly competition.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
yeah, just my opinion though...
i thought Cain would be top 10 in NL by now…
Bets on who the teammate is?
Bengie has to be the favorite, right?
Cain had a great year in 2007.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
He had an ERA+ of 122, DERA of 3.68, a K/B over 2 and was 9th in the NL in VORP. At 22. That seems pretty great to me.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
Okay, if you want to go all STATSY at it!!!
I’ll play your little game…
Okay, I actually won’t, I’m just going to say that parts of his season were stellar, parts were pretty awful, and parts were good.
I’m sticking with it having been a good year. If it makes you feel better, I’ll say it was just a good year for Cain, Mr. Superwonderful.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
Great -- and not so great
Matt Cain DID have a great season in 2007. In April, August and September. Unfortunately, in the months of May, June and July his WHIP exceeded 1.60 IIRC.
Close
Matt’s 2007 was pretty close to my expectations—although he reached those expectations in a very inconsistent manner.
This season I thought his ERA might sneak up to around 3.80. While his ERA is half a run above that, he has probably pitched a LITTLE better than his ERA indicates. I think 3.80 is still realistic—and he might even beat it.
All I can say
I expected Cain to build off of last season better than he’s seemed to so far. He should still get better, but I was hoping for and expecting a much more solid start than he’s had (primarily, I was expecting him to finally cut down his frickin’ walks! I swear if I see him walk too many more pitchers or number 8 hitters, I’m going to throw a shoe at my tv!).
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
Tim Kurkjian makes crap up
It’s “reporters” like him that make ESPN more like MTV than CNN. He tries to create sensationalist garbage so that he can “scoop” a story that doesn’t exist.
Matt Cain is just a few MONTHS older than Lincecum. He’s just been screwed by run support and his inability to keep his pitch counts low. The former is out of his control. The latter is something that he recognizes and will fix.
Life will be all good for “Bobby Hill” if he pitches in the #3 spot in the rotation next year. There’s good luck at that spot (see, Lowry, Noah)
by Rusty the Robot on Jun 19, 2008 5:45 PM PDT reply actions
if he doesn't
give a direct source for this I have to agree that this is BS and I really can’t give this comment any weight.
This is like Fox saying, “Some people have said . . . “
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 19, 2008 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
ive never heard anything negative about Kirkjian
and he doesnt strike me as the kind who likes to make things up for his own benefit
Kirkjian, along with his dorky enthusiasm for ridiculous stats, is by far the best and most entertaining thing on Baseball Tonight, and it’s really not even close.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
And I mean the thing about dorky enthusiasm in the nicest way possible. He’s genuinely awesome.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
So groug is a highway in southern California now.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 20, 2008 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions
This is why he's awesome.
Yeah, I like him, too. Especially that time he got all excited about the Rangers scoring 30 runs.
Oh
I wholeheartedly agree. However, in this instance, I can’t take this comment seriously because it is without logic and unsourced.
If W.C. Heinz made this comment, I still wouldn’t buy it.
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 20, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I think this is a pretty silly thing.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 19, 2008 6:47 PM PDT reply actions
Matt Cain's problem
is that he’s been too hittable. His LD% has jumped up which means he’s leaving up too many fat pitches. He’s been a bit unlucky and has seen more HR’s leave the park than usually do. I really don’t think there’s any competition that’s detrimental between the two.
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 19, 2008 7:48 PM PDT reply actions
Now, this is an intelligent comment. On top of this, were Cain “trying to keep up,” wouldn’t he be throwing harder than he ever has? Instead, he’s taken a few MPH off his heater in an attempt to gain more control. Unfortunately, that hasn’t materialized (the control) yet. And, as a copnsequence, he’s throwing way more thigh high, middle in fast balls than in any prior year.
I just don’t see what part of Cain’s development is screaming “retarded” in any way, shape, or form. And I see a lot of things that scream that on a daily basis.
All this “Cain disappoints me / Cain isn’t developing right / Cain is a loser / Cain is a headcase” talk really saddens me. Particularly because it couldn’t be further from the truth.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
I’m with you. Guy struggles and he’s rubbish? Jeez even when he’s bad he’s more tolerable than a lot of the shit we’ve been subjected to this season. I’m also wondering what the expectations could be for a not-yet-24 year old pitcher.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 20, 2008 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Roger Clemens had a 2.20 ERA and won the Cy Young and MVP when he was 23. Anything less than that is unacceptable.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
Good point. Cain better get on it.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 20, 2008 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions
im one of the people that have been saying cain is definately struggling and needs to find his way.. but also I wouldnt trade him for anything. i think others are the same way, we just expect sooooo much out of the 23 year old and until he gets that ERA under 3 we probably will say hes not good as he could be
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
Amen
Proud new mom of Mr. Buster Posey.
by GiantsFanInExile on Jun 20, 2008 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I doubt Matt Cain is affected by how good Tim Lincecum is. Any problems that Cain has is probably due to frustration because of all the tough losses, and the bad luck he has had the past two seasons. Right now he’s going through a bit of a slump, but there is no way he doesn’t turn it around in the near future and give us a period of a month or two where he doesn’t have a bad outing.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
I would have to agree with you. Cain has got to be frustrated with the bad luck so far this year. The guy goes out throws a pretty good game, gives up two or three, only to have the pen give it up or the crappy offense give him no run support. IMO, he has dropped the velocity a bit to try to “control” his pitches and limit the damage. Rags needs to tell him to let it fly. He seems to be trying to limit runs by pitching around folks rather than pitching his game.
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
I predict
Cain pitches a stellar game tonight in KC. Road game, night game, pretty big park—it sets up well for him. Which isn’t to necessarily say the Giants will win.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
I think there’s a smidgen of truth to the statement. All the hype that has been given to Timmy the last two years is the same as what was given to Cain the two years prior to that. And while Cain is a fine pitcher, I think we can all safely say that Timmy has completely lived up to the lofty expectations, while Cain has not (keeping in mind that “our” expectations of our two studs are very high). Of course, a lot of things are out of a pitchers control, such as run support and defense, but considering that Cain is the “veteran” of the two, and that other teammates are always saying “When Tim’s out there, we know we have a great chance to win”, it’s got to eat at you.
agree with that
and its not a knock on Cain – its just that if you’re Cain, you’ve been a #1 pick, moving thru the system and kicking ass at every level, and then doing well in the bigs, the press starts to build – and it looks like you’re going to be “the man” or at least the #1 on the staff for a very long time…things look good, things look damn good….and then all of a sudden, here comes this odd little twirp who shoots through the minors in one year and they’re saying he’s got unbelievable stuff and going to be even better than you…..its got to be a letdown
ive been a Cain fan and thats kind of what i thought when i saw what Sharksrog was writing on here – that Lincecum would be better than Cain….. i thought “b.s. on that, Cain is the man and is going to anchor the staff for 15 years” – well, doesnt look like its going to happen that way….
im praying
that cain actually turns out better than lincecum and every year the league has a hard time determining which giant should win cy young
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
Trade Cain. Do it before he loses value. He may wind up being a Cy Young candidate one day, sure, but just look at what the A’s got back for Dan Haren. Does that not intrigue you at all?
Billy Ripken is not a fuck face
Cain is fine
People tend to forget that he’s still only 23 years old; most players his age are still trying to figure out A-ball or maybe AA if they are really good. Only the best players are in the majors at such a young age, and of course he is going to suffer his ups and downs as a pitcher, he’s young, inexperienced, sometimes the lessons don’t take so easily until you fail enough that you have to listen.
If Cain is anywhere near the competitor, professional, mature player that he has been presented as, having Lincecum around is going to inspire him to do even better.
Look at how humble he is, earlier (about a month ago) in an interview, he says that he goes anywhere for advice, including Lincecum.
I think he is going to take to heart Lincecum’s transformation from last year to this year, and the changes he has implemented, and work hard at integrating that into his repertoire. And perhaps that is why he has been struggling, trying to get the kinks out while trying out some new stuff.
Just give him a break.
Just don’t trade him, he is not going to lose value, he will only gain value as long as he doesn’t suffer an injury. And if you are going to trade him because of that, then you will never hold onto any of your young pitchers…
I’ve been saying it for over a year now, having a staff of exceptionally strong starters is the key to winning in the playoffs. That may seem far enough away now, but that’s what happens when you are rebuilding, you wonder when the light at the end of the tunnel is and get impatient. You need to stay strong in your convictions and not blink and follow the plan.
I would only consider trading any of Cain, Lincecum, and Sanchez when Bumgarner and/or Alderson look ready to take over and do just as well.
That is how Beane did it, he took a calculated risk getting rid of Haren, but he had a ready replacement for him in Harden plus possible replacements among the prospects he picked up. If we trade Cain away, it would only weaken the rotation for us plus I would wager that it would lessen the load of prospects we would get for Cain should we ever trade him, he’s going to get better, not worse, unless the worse happens.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 20, 2008 3:42 PM PDT reply actions
If
If pitchers are really good, they AREN’T trying to figure out A ball or AA at age 23 3/4. They are usually in the majors or REALLY close to it.
The younger and less experienced players are when they reach the majors, the more likely they are to be superstars or stars.
I can see a teammate saying this, and I have a really tough time seeing Kirkjian making it up then pulling it from his arse. If it was Benjie who said it, I’d believe it’s true more than what anyone here says. Sorry y’all.
Lincecum had made it look pretty easy this year. So had has Sanchez at times. Cain might be pressing at times, especially if they have this “friendly rivalry”, instead of trusting his stuff and letting the game come to him.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
Not an annual event
I don’t believe Matt Cain’s slow start is an annual event. Two years ago he got off to a very slow start and actually was bullpened while skipping one start. But last season his April was a month for the ages. Something like 12 hits against in 33 innings.
Really?
You say that unless he suffers an injury, Matt Cain will only gain value. I would be more likely to believe that if I didn’t feel that Matt’s trade value is clearly down from the end of April, 2007.
As for Lincecum
As for Tim Lincecum, I don’t really see that he has made that big a transformation since June 25th of last year—so basically a year ago.
Tim struggled in his debut start, probably because he was really amped up - and because Bengie Molina didn’t have much of a clue as to what to call with Tim on the mound. I should add also that Tim didn’t help Bengie in that regard, since his very first major league curve ball wound up on the pavillion - off the bat of Shane Victorino, no less.
Tim then pitched well through the end of May. Then on June 3rd, he had a nice beginning to his start in Philadelphia. But perhaps because he tired, perhaps because Bengie was still calling for too many fastballs, he got raked late in the game.
Thus began a streak in which Tim often had a befuddled look on the mound as for the first time EVER, batters were hitting his fastball. He began to overthrow, and added wildness to his problems. It is easy to forget now, but he likely was one start away from being skipped as Matt Cain had been the year before.
Then came June 25th and seven innings of shutout baseball against the Padres. On July 1st, he threw what might have been his best start of the season, striking out a dozen Diamondbacks IIRC, as he painted the corners with all three pitches.
In July, Tim could easily have been the pitcher of the month, although the honor went to the better-known Carlos Zambrano, whose July stats were surprisingly close to Tim’s.
Tim may have tired in August, but he still sported a spiffy 2.96 ERA from June 25th through the end of the season.
Tim has added his slider, and he has become NAILS with runners in scoring position, just as he was last April in Fresno, when he allowed no - zero - hits with RISP. Mike Krukow says Tim didn’t have his change up last year, but Mike is mistaken. PITCH/fx data shows that his change was his best swing-through pitch last season.
I would say Tim’s “transformation” from last year has been more of a polishing of the transformation he made last season beginning on June 25th.
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