Trade speculation season must be starting
by thehavenot on Jun 19, 2008 12:20 PM PDT
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It appears that trade speculation season has officially opened. There's about a month and a half left until the deadline but it's always fun to talk about possible trades. I usually don't put my two cents into the ring (crossed metaphors FTW), mostly because I feel it's futile. 99% of all trade speculation ends up not coming to fruition and 90% is no where near the ballpark and 75% is simply rediculous. Not that that stops us.
However, I participate despite the fact that I don't contribute. I usually read the various rumors and then let my imagination run wild. It's fun; much funner than the off-season simply because of the fact that the speculation is condensed into about a month or so.
This is all just a long-winded lead-up to my first ever contribution to trade speculation.
Here it is. The Giants should make a trade with the Texas Rangers. The Rangers need pitching. Badly. The Giants need young position players who are either in the Majors or close to the Majors. Badly.
I have no idea if the Rangers consider themselves contenders or buyers or whatnot. But here's the beauty of the situation. It doesn't matter. We can give them a pitcher that can help them not only this year but also in years to come. And they can return the favor in the form of a hitter.
So I propose a trade centered around Matt Cain and Chris Davis. It's looking like Chris Davis will be up in the majors this year. He's done nothing but hit at every level. He's probably a first baseman now, but, hey, we need one of those. Matt Cain, of course, is extremely valuable. Probably more valuable than Davis (though, I am not very good at determining the trade value of players). So the Giants could probably ask for something else too. But Davis would be the centerpiece.
So, how'd I do? I've never done this before. Does that make sense? Are you scoffing at the notion just because you love Matt Cain? Well, I love Matt Cain too. But we need us some impact bats for cheap and Cain/Lincecum/maybe Sanchez is really the only way to get that in the next couple of years. And one thing we have is pitching.
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Addendum
One issue here is something that I never would have thought would have been an issue. And that is pitching depth. One thing we had was pitching depth in spades. Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, Correia, and Zito as the starting five with Misch and Hennessey as backups.
Well, Misch and Hennessey (and Zito) have sucked badly, while Correia has been injured. I’m not sure we can really afford trading a starting pitcher. If we were contenders, that is. Who cares who the fifth starter is this year? It really doesn’t matter.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
you dont trade matt cain at the trade deadline. you trade winn/durham/aurillia and i pray zito
proud father of the newly acquired Brandon Crawford..
I'm not against trading those people
This does not mean we can’t trade Cain.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
Timing
It may be better to trade a young pitcher such as Matt Cain over the winter because one may be able to get more value for him at that time. But if the right deal comes up at the trade deadline - when teams can be willing to make a trade that is good for the urgency of their present even while very bad in the long run - why not take it?
+1
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 19, 2008 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Too easy
The Rangers need pitching. Badly
They might want Zito…because he’s pitching, well, you know.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
If this post does nothing else but set up a Goofus joke, then I am happy.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
We really don't have that much pitching...
Zito looks done, Misch was awful, Hennessey has been awful, Correia had 8 good starts last year, but that hasn’t really carried over this year, Sanchez has been great at times, erratic at others and Cain has also been up and down. If you trade Cain, who do you replace him with? The 3 best pitching prospects we have (Sosa, Alderson and Bumgarner) are all at the lower levels. We have 3 above-average major league starters and 3 above average minor league prospects. And a lot of poo-slingers, quasi-prospects and disappointments in between. We need hitting, but not at the expense of starting pitching that we cannot replace in the near future.
And a lot of poo-slingers , quasi-prospects and disappointments in between.
That’s why you don’t trade Matt Cain. He’s 23 years old. With the run support he gets, I’m just happy he still shows up at the park. Matt Cain > “poo-slingers”
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
I agree
I wasn’t saying Cain was a poo slinger. I like Matt Cain a lot, I think his struggles can be traced to our shitty offense more than anything. He’s an above-average major-league pitcher and he can get a lot better.
by mark30perq3 on Jun 19, 2008 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions
It doesn't matter
At least not this year. Possibly next year too. Let’s just throw anybody out there to replace him. Let’s see if Misch can right himself. Let’s let Palmer have a shot. Somebody. Anybody. It doesn’t matter.
We worry about replacing Cain in a year or two. Maybe replacement comes through free agency (Sabathia?). Maybe not. That might be an unpalatable route to many after the Zito signing. Maybe it comes through the farm system. Alderson could move fast. So could Bumgarner. Heck so could Sosa.
And I wouldn’t discount the myriad of lesser pitching prospects we have. Nor would I discount Misch just yet. One thing we still have is pitching prospect depth. Even if a lot of it is of the relief variety. But that depth will lead to at least one or two surprises.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
I don’t know about you, but I’d rather not replace a guy who makes something like $4mil a year (Cain) with someone entering free agency who’s going to make – at a bare minimum – $10mil a year.
Plus, with all the pleasant surprises we’ve had, I don’t think we’re three years from contending. I think we’re a year away from having a solid team again. But overpaying for another pitcher while losing an affordable one seems backwards to me.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
So
You’d rather overpay a middle of the order hitter? We could just go the Teixeira route, I suppose. Because other than trading someone like Cain, that’s the only way we add a middle of the order hitter in the next year or two.
Further, we are much more likely to replace Cain in the next year or two from within than we are to find a middle of the order bat from within over the next year or two.
I actually agree that we could be competitive as early as next season (that’s why I said year or two, instead of two or three). But a lot would have to go right for that to happen. I also mentioned that maybe free agency wasn’t the best way to go in order to replace Cain. But it is an option.
It just seems like the giants are in a better position to replace someone like Cain than they are for finding a middle of the order bat.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
It does matter
Misch is awful. Palmer is struggling at AAA. Bumgarner and Alderson are very, very young. Free agent pitching is very, very expensive and it rarely turns out (see Barry Ziton, Carl Pavano, Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Matt Clement). Trading for pitchers is very expensive and it rarely turns out (see Mark Mulder). Matt Cain will be an integral part of the next Giants good team, and he’ll only be 26 years old I bet.
by mark30perq3 on Jun 19, 2008 11:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Another point by point
It does matter
Not this year. Probably not next year either. And maybe even the year after that. What does it matter if we have Matt Cain pitching in our pitching staff if we are a sub .500 team anyway?
Misch is awful
So far this year. He’s shown promise in the past. I betcha you would have given up on Carlos Beltran during or after his second season. Sometimes players turn it around. I swear, it seems like some people think they have a crystal ball and know what’s going to happen in the future.
Palmer is struggling at AAA.
Sure, he’s very unlikely to be much of anything for us. But it doesn’t hurt to throw him out there this year.
Bumgarner and Alderson are very, very young.
Alderson, at least, seems to be on the fast track. With the way Bumgarner is pitching he could be too.
Free agent pitching is very, very expensive and it rarely turns out (see Barry Ziton, Carl Pavano, Randy Johnson, Kevin Brown, Matt Clement).
Middle of the order bats are also expensive in free agency. As for “it rarely turns out,” do you have evidence to back this up besides a few names? By the way, Randy Johnson was a fantastic acquisition for the Diamondbacks. Kevin Brown was valuable for the Dodgers for several years before he was traded.
Trading for pitchers is very expensive and it rarely turns out (see Mark Mulder).
One thing I have not advocated any where on this post is trading for a pitcher. However, you say Mark Mulder, I say Tim Hudson or Roger Clemens or Randy Johnson (98 Astros). Besides, this is a strange point to bring up when trying to argue against trading away a pitcher.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
What does it matter if we have Matt Cain? Tim Lincecum? Jonathan Sanchez? Brian Wilson? Fred Lewis? Why have good young players or good players at all if you suck? Maybe because if you keep these guys and get more good young guys and an occasional solid vet, you will have a good team soon?
Trading for Pitchers: If you trade Cain for offense in the hopes of having a good offense to compete in a couple of years, and Misch and Palmer don’t turn out (which they probably won’t given their age and track record) or Bumgarner and Alderson take more than 2 years to get here (which I think they will) you are going to need to replace Matt Cain somehow by trading for a pitcher which is very costly in terms of prospects as seen by what the D-Backs gave up for Haren or very costly in free agency.
It does matter that we either keep Matt Cain or get a Haren-like package for him. A one-for-one would solve one problem while opening up a new one. Also, if you trade Cain for an unproven player who doesn’t turn out, wow, that would really screw us.
Pat Misch is not Carlos Beltran: He’s a dime-a-dozen lefty without a plus pitch or tool. I personally believe he’s a reliever and his failures as a starter in the majors compared to his success as a reliever should have indicated to the Giants that he should now be relieving in Fresno.
Free Agency: Matt Morris. Barry Zito. Our recent free agent splashes have been expensive and worthless and pitchers seem to decline often times around the time they hit free agency. I was talking about the Yankees expensive signings that didn’t work out very well even though those pitchers had previously succeeded. I would much rather develop pitching and control the contract for their prime years than have to trade prospects or waste draft picks and millions of dollars signing guys who could break down or lose their velocity quickly. I don’t have time to a detailed examination of free agent pitching signings but Mike Hampton, Denny Neagle, Barry Zito, Matt Morris, Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, Mark Mulder last year, Jeff Weaver last year, Carlos Silva this year….all guys who had success, got big contracts and then became dead weight for the team that signed them. Matt Cain is 23, he throws 92-96, he has a solid off-speed repertoire though he lacks a dominant off-speed pitch, he lacks great command but he is still an above-average major league pitcher with a dominant fastball. You don’t give up on that in the hopes that Pat Misch will replace him and the one bat you get in return pans out. He is the 2nd most valuable player on our team behind Lincecum and ahead of Wilson and Sanchez. Let’s keep what is good and add more good players to it rather than squandering the limited young talent we have.
by mark30perq3 on Jun 20, 2008 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions
What does it matter if we have Matt Cain? Tim Lincecum? Jonathan Sanchez? Brian Wilson? Fred Lewis? Why have good young players or good players at all if you suck? Maybe because if you keep these guys and get more good young guys and an occasional solid vet, you will have a good team soon?
You miss the point entirely. It does not matter if we have any of those guys this year. Probably next as well. Why? Because even with those players, the Giants are a bad team. The point is this: I feel that the Giants are more capable of replacing Matt Cain than they are of finding middle of the order hitters. Apparently you disagree, which is fine. But just understand what I am saying.
Matt Cain is a valuable commodity. Either for us on the field or for us as a trade chip. The choice is either keep Cain and hope to find offense some where else or use Cain to get a good chunk of offense. (There is another choice that rxmeister brought up further down thread, and that is trade our other younger pitching for hitting, but the crux of this post is about trading Cain so I will leave that alone)
Trading for Pitchers: If you trade Cain for offense in the hopes of having a good offense to compete in a couple of years, and Misch and Palmer don’t turn out (which they probably won’t given their age and track record) or Bumgarner and Alderson take more than 2 years to get here (which I think they will) you are going to need to replace Matt Cain somehow by trading for a pitcher which is very costly in terms of prospects as seen by what the D-Backs gave up for Haren or very costly in free agency
Yes, pitching is very costly on the trade or free agency market. But…so…is…offense. Everything is costly in baseball, right now. This is why the farm system is so valuable. And this is the heart of the matter. The Giants have some guys up right now that are very valuable as pitchers. But once the Giants can get any offense out of the farm system, all of those guys will suddenly have become much more expensive. The clock is ticking. It’s not easy finding middle of the order bats. Who do you want? Texeira? Not likely. Dunn? Bad choice for this team. Who else?
Also, if you trade Cain for an unproven player who doesn’t turn out, wow, that would really screw us.
Yes, that would. You know what would also screw us? Having Cain leave the first moment he can because we never got a decent offense.
Pat Misch is not Carlos Beltran: He’s a dime-a-dozen lefty without a plus pitch or tool. I personally believe he’s a reliever and his failures as a starter in the majors compared to his success as a reliever should have indicated to the Giants that he should now be relieving in Fresno.
Sure, Beltran is an extreme example. The point is simply that ballplayers struggle at times and they are able to turn it around. Pat Misch has struggled for exactly two months. He might be a reliever in the end. But we have the time to see.
Free Agency: Matt Morris. Barry Zito. Our recent free agent splashes have been expensive and worthless and pitchers seem to decline often times around the time they hit free agency.
Edgardo Alfonso, Ray Durham (the second contract), Mike Matheny, Rich Aurilia. What makes you think the Giants would do better with offense than with pitching on the free agent market?
I was talking about the Yankees expensive signings that didn’t work out very well even though those pitchers had previously succeeded.
Sorry, you don’t get to cherry pick.
Matt Cain is 23, he throws 92-96, he has a solid off-speed repertoire though he lacks a dominant off-speed pitch, he lacks great command but he is still an above-average major league pitcher with a dominant fastball. You don’t give up on that in the hopes that Pat Misch will replace him and the one bat you get in return pans out.
I’m not “giving up” on Matt Cain for Pat Misch and Chris Davis. I’m making a calculated sacrifice (hypothetically) for Pat Misch/Matt Palmer/Henry Sosa/Bumgarner/Alderson/possible free agent/possible surprise from farm system and Chris Davis/whoever else we got in the trade (you did notice the multiple times I mentioned that I thought Cain was more valuable than just Davis, right?)
The main point here is something that I will bold because it seems to be missed by everybody. Do you have more faith that the Giants can find middle of the order bats (multiple) than you have that the Giants can replace Matt Cain? I do. Maybe you don’t. That’s fine. Explain why.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
I wasn’t cherry-picking, I was merely stating that in regards to Kevin Brown and Randy Johnson I was speaking specifically about them in regards to their Yankee contracts and performances. Jeff Suppan is another recent very expensive bust that comes to mind and Gil Meche is expensive and having a down year after a good year and I would bet he’ll only get worse. At this point, I think I have listed 20 examples.
As for your specific point as to the Giants ability to develop pitching or hitting I would say that whatever we trade Cain for, if it was done by Sabean, would not pan out as seen by his Timmy for Rios bullshit idea, Nathan for AJ and Accardo for Hillenbrand. So I have no faith in him pulling of a deal with any of our valuable pitching commodities.
Do I have faith in his ability to build an offense in the post-Bonds era? Not really but the last 2 drafts have been good (minus Jackson Williams, terrible pick because of how high it was made!) and the signing of Big V and potentially Rafael Rodriguez are definitely signs of a new direction. Will that hitting get here in time for Cain and Lincecum’s prime years (25-28 in my opinion)? Probably not.
So in the meantime here is what I would advocate: you can build an offense on free talent pick-ups but you can’t build pitching that way. Look at the free talent team you could have this year just by using the Rule V draft, the waiver wire, disgarded free agents, etc. without splurging on a Teixeira, A-Rod or over-paying for a Rowand or Dunn.
C Jesus Flores (Rule V 2007)
1B Carlos Pena (signed minor league deal with Tampa 2007)
2B Dan Uggla (Rule V Draft)
3B Russell Branyon (tearing it up for Milwaukee)
LF Jack Cust (tearing it up for Oakland, released by the Padres in 2007 I believe)
CF Josh Hamilton (Rule V 2007 by Cubs, then traded to Reds)
Those are just off the top of my head. Its much easier to build an offense cheaply and quickly than it is to build a pitching staff. I agree that Aurilia, Roberts, Durham (2nd time) were terrible contracts and still are. I think Rowand and Winn have terrible contracts. So my faith in Brian Sabean is very limited to do just about anything. And I certainly don’t want him trading Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez or Wilson. In fact, I don’t want him to be our GM at all.
by mark30perq3 on Jun 20, 2008 10:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Its much easier to build an offense cheaply and quickly than it is to build a pitching staff
Here is the essence of our disagreement. Maybe this is the case but the sheer enormity of the Giants’ task, coupled with their depth in pitching prospects leads to me to conclude otherwise in this instance.
Only 898 games until the end of Zito's contract
if offense first works so well then tell my the Giants have not WS ring? Or the Reds only have 1 after the days The Big Red Machine?
Even the Big Red Machine had to have Gullett, An innings eater in Billingham and one year get lucky with Rookie named Zackry.
Offense first make a nice, entertaining, regular season squad. And this is the best it makes.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
I don't want offense first
I want a balanced ball club. Besides, who said anything about getting rid of all of our pitching? We’d still have Licecum and Sanchez and Correia. And I have confidence in the Giants ability to replace Cain. This is my whole point. I don’t want to have no pitching. I like good pitching.
Only 898 games until the end of Zito's contract
I brought it up because this branch seems to be waffling on whether is better to go get high ceiling hitters ( usually with power) or hold on to the high ceiling young arms.
I think were are still at the stage were we do not have the rescores to go get both so we have to chose. And if you chose hitters right now were are, de facto, choosing to assemble and offensive side of the squad first.
If going "O" first the last few decades of Giants & Reds post season success is a valid point if the fan really wants to witness pennants and W.S. games.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
I believe the Giants can replace Matt Cain.
Or at least, that they have a better chance of doing so than they have of finding a middle of the order hitter.
I think the Giants could trade Matt Cain to improve the offense and still have good pitching via Lincecum, Correia, Sanchez, and then replace Cain with Bumgarner, Alderson or Sosa (or somebody else).
Only 897 games until the end of Zito's contract
I belive it could turn out that way.
But at this point I would say hold onto Cain,Tim, Sanchez & Wilson tell the the wonder kids in “A” ball get a lot closer to The Show. The exception would be if someone comes up with a Hersal Walker type offer.
I like Corriea but his best is probably a middle rotation type guy . The other 4 don’t get touched tell we have a vialbe equal or better replacement in or near the big leagues. Otherwise we are only holding still or going backwards with the over all talent level of the team.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
I would settle for offense second.
I would settle for offense second—as long as there IS some. :)
well its very offending now.
oh, not what you ment? ;)
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
Not that smart
You made up a very nice list of players the Giants could have had on the cheap. It’s just that they’re not that smart.
By the way, you mentioned Russell Branyan. The Giants could have signed Russ for about half a mill in 2006. Instead the only left-handed bat they had on their bench that could play third base was Jose Vizcaino (signed for more than twice what Branyan cost). So the Giants had to play Pedro Feliz to death that season rather than have the lefty-hitting Branyan complement him and give him proper rest.
The Giants fell apart beginning September 15th that season when Jason Schmidt was injured and the Giants didn’t call up a rested Tim Lincecum to replace him in the rotation. Instead they went with Brad Hennessey, who was rocked, leading to arguably the worst spate of Giants pitching over the next week and a half or two weeks that we have seen. So they probably wouldn’t have made the playoffs anyway.
But with Branyan and a properly rested Feliz, they at least would have had a CHANCE to do so.
Yes, the Giants didn’t have the most money to spend. But that brings up two problems:
First, they didn’t have much money because of the poor signings they had made in the past (including the forgettable Matt Morris before that very season).
And secondly, they spent/wasted money on guys like Vizcaino when players such as Branyan were available for even less money.
By the way, Branyan - who hit his 10th homer of this season in his 61st at bat - is far from a star. He has played for a LOT of teams. But he is just the type of inexpensive piece a team like the Giants who focus too much on batting average (at .231 career, Branyan is only 16 points above the Mendoza line, even though his OPS - which clearly is a better measurement of a batter’s contribution - is over .800, a figure only Barry Bonds among the Giants exceeded last season IIRC) overlook—to their detriment.
The Padres wound up with Branyan down the stretch in September of 2006. And sure enough, he won a couple of games for them and aided their making the post-season over teams such as … the Giants.
Thank goodness the Giants seem to be making huge strides in their farm after nearly two decades where the system essentially lay fallow. Since the 2002 season, they haven’t made many good calls at the major-league level, causing them to have one of the oldest and worst teams in the majors for a while there.
Correia
I have faith in Kevin Correia. Kevin was great early in his comeback start last Sunday and still wound up striking out four while walking only two. He should be just fine. Matt Cain has struck out 17 while walking only two in his last two starts. He too appears to be back on track.
Only Barely Zito, with eight strikeouts and 17 walks this month, appears to be in the toilet. I thought his signing was a horrible one, but even I have been surprised at how quickly he has lost it.
Davis looks like a hell of a slugger, but the bad k/w is a pretty significant chink in his armor. I’d want another good prospect before I’d consider trading Cain for him.
Fair enough
I did mention that Cain was worth more than him so we’d probably want something else.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
The problem is that we see Cain as worth more than him but with his win/loss record is Cain really worth more in other teams’ eyes?
by paboperfecto on Jun 19, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
and blame any injuries he would suffer on having the pitcher bat in an NL park during interleague games.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
Nah, the fans wouldn't do that.
They may be completely unrealistic, but even they have more sense than Hank Steinbrenner.
All-Father Watch: 1.11 ERA, 6 saves, 0.90 WHIP, 34 Ks in 32 1/3 IP
I don’t think many, if any, teams still evaluate pitchers by win/loss record.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
Nice job
Nice job of picking up the bad K/BB rate from Davis. I haven’t looked at him, but I do know that if a hitter doesn’t have a good balance in the minors between home runs (or at least extra base hits), strikeouts and walks, he is more likely to struggle in the majors. Pedro Feliz was a good example of that.
I'm fairly sure you aren't comparing Feliz to Davis
But just in case you are, Davis has been much better over his minor league career than Feliz was during his stay in the minors. Even during his fantastic 2000 season in Fresno. And even then, Feliz did what he did okay.
Davis will be a much better hitter in the majors than Feliz.
As for the K/BB ratio, one encouraging sign is it’s improving. He’s striking out a lot less over the last year or two. And he’s still only 22 so there’s plenty of room for improvement.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
we can't get rid of zito
even if there were some team stupid enough to want him…if i’m not mistaken, he has a full no trade clause.
we are stuck with the guy.
hey the tigers sent dontrelle to single A, why can’t we do the same with zito?
that trade
was so ridiculously underappreciated on the side of the Marlins.
Also, because Zito is under a fully protected major league contract I don’t think we can just straight outright him. i guess we could put him on the DL
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 19, 2008 7:58 PM PDT up reply actions
Trading Cain is crazy
He’s under team control at a reasonable price. There is no one in the minors to take his place in the rotation in the immediate future. At this point, there is no upside to trade Cain unless the other player coming back is named Longoria, Tulowitzki, or Ramirez (Hanley, not Manny). If you keep Cain and Lincecum, you will have 2/5 of a dominant rotation when Villalona, Posey, Alderson and Bumgardner are promoted.
Trading youth for more youth at this point would be insanity. Cain is a relatively known quantity (good arm with incredibly bad luck) for a minor-league slugger. Long story short, bad idea.
by Rusty the Robot on Jun 19, 2008 5:34 PM PDT reply actions
You must have thought the Haren trade was stupid for the A's, then
Point by point
He’s under team control at a reasonable price.
As would Chris Davis and anyone else who came in the trade.
There is no one in the minors to take his place in the rotation in the immediate future.
No one has to take his place this year and possibly next year. We don’t need to worry about that until the team is actually good. Further, I have much more faith in the Giants replacing Cain in the next year or two than I do in them finding cheap young impact bats.
At this point, there is no upside to trade Cain unless the other player coming back is named Longoria, Tulowitzki, or Ramirez (Hanley, not Manny).
At this point, Chris Davis is probably a top 50 prospect in baseball. Maybe not quite as valuable as Longoria, Tulowitzki or Ramirez (though, I would argue he’s pretty close to them), but we would never get those players. By the way, why stop there? Why not the Upton brothers? Why not Jay Bruce?
If you keep Cain and Lincecum, you will have 2/5 of a dominant rotation when Villalona, Posey, Alderson and Bumgardner are promoted.
If they don’t get injured, that is. You want to point out the risk involved with trading for prospects but want to forget the risk involved with young pitchers.
Also, when is that? Will they all be promoted at the same time? And why no mention of Sanchez? I suspect Villalona, at least, will be a good four years or so away. By that time, Lincecum and Cain will have become very expensive. And we will still be paying Zito. That’s a problem.
By trading Cain and getting back a 22 year old slugger, if he pans out like he is likely to, then we will be better equipped financially once those four (and any others as well) are ready for the majors.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
Cubs fans don’t even create one sided trades like this. How do the Giants go from trading Cain for an established All-Star (Alex Rios) to a Top-50 prospect? Chris Davis is nothing to get excited about. I want to win a World Series in my lifetime. I just don’t see how trading Cain accomplishes this unless it is COMPLETELY ONE-SIDED for the Giants.
by Rusty the Robot on Jun 20, 2008 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Do people not read?
I swear it’s becoming an epidemic. I post the answer to their questions or comments in the post that they are responding to all of the time.
I have stated on more than one occasion that I thought Matt Cain to be more valuable than just Chris Davis. Why do people (more than just you, Rusty) continue to address this issue as if I said just Chris Davis?
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
What? Somebody said that???
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 20, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Cain and Zito to Yankees
for nothing
hate to clean up a mess this way, but I think we would have to bite on that one
flame on!
Rebuilding
I dunno. It just seems that if we are going to rebuild, we need to take inventory of our assets, and then trade or DFA anything else when possible.
Any inventory of our assets would deem Lincecum and Cain as the centerpieces of the team, both now and in the future. To trade away the best of what we already have kinda defeats the purpose.
Don't play a dangerous game.
I see it differently
I see things differently than Lincecum and Cain as the centerpieces of the future. I also see players such as Bumgarner, Posey, Villalona, Alderson and Fairley in that mix.
You had no problem
writing 75 words. Kiddies take note: it is easier to write 75 words than it is to write 25 great words.
Huh?
Did you really just come on here just to insult me?
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
Oh, man, uh
I didn’t “come on here just to insult you,” but it certainly looks like I insulted you while I was here. I’m sorry about that. It’s just that I had just read another post where someone said how hard it was to get to 75, and here you were making it easily. In the most un-confrontational way possible, though, I would suggest that your post was a bit self-indulgent, which is another way of saying that it took too many words to say what it said. Lest my response begin to resemble your post, I’ll stop there. But obviously not while I’m ahead, because that horse left the barn about fourteen hours ago.
I often take too many words to say what I say
It’s a failing of mine. Just know that it is in no way phony or pretentious or self-indulgent. Well, maybe self-indulgent. But aren’t we all self-indulgent at times? All I really want to express about the way I write is that it is completely natural to me. It’s just the way I think. And the way I think is expressed in the way I write. Maybe that makes my words not great, but merely mediocre. Whatever. I’m not being paid for them anyway. Though, I do feel (and maybe this is me being self-indulgent again) that I could write for a living if I had made an effort in that direction.
Anyways, no worries Nick. Your post just seemed to have no point other than to say that my post was lacking. I get annoyed at drive by insults. I see that was not your intention, so all’s well.
Only 898 games until the end of Zito's contract
I’ve been self-indulgent 5 times already today.
You think my hand would get tired.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 21, 2008 1:24 AM PDT up reply actions
5 times in one sitting or 5 different intervals?
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 21, 2008 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions
If it’s one sitting, then howie deserves an award or something.
Trent Kline: Decentish. Also, my website is called ChatterBalks Dot Com and on it I make jokes about things.
Cain to the Rangers?
Why would you do that? First of all, you never trade a player who has dominated to some extent at the major league level for someone who has never played in the major leagues, especially when they’re pretty close to the same age. Secondly, how many good first basemen have the Texas Rangers traded over the last few years, and gotten nothing close in terms of talent to someone like Matt Cain?? Travis Hafner, Adrian Gonzalez, Mark Texeira, and I’m probably forgetting a guy or two. You’re on the right track that getting Chris Davis is a good idea, but you could probably sucker the team with the worst pitching staff in the major leagues into giving him to you for alot less. You could literally give them half a pitching staff that’s better than they already have. Pat Misch, Kevin Correia, Billy Sadler, Jack Taschner, Brad Hennessey, Alex Hinshaw, and some younger arms at AA level or lower could be put together in some combination for Davis. A trade like that could turn their whole team around, and you could hold onto Matt Cain. Then again, why should we give up on John Bowker as our possible answer at firstbase so quickly?? Why make a deal at all??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
Fair enough
If it’s possible, I would definitely be down to give up less. But then, we could probably get more than Davis with Cain.
As for giving up on John Bowker, I don’t want to. But what’s the odds that all three of Lewis, Schierholtz and Bowker all turn out to be good Major League players? It’d be great if they did, but I wouldn’t bet on it. And even if they do, none of them are likely to hit like what Chris Davis is likely to hit.
The whole point here, is that it is far more likely that the Giants are able to replace Matt Cain than they are of finding an impact bat. Does anyone disagree with this particular point?
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
You wouldn't have?
You wouldn’t have traded Matt Cain for Jay Bruce or Evan Longoria over the winter? You wouldn’t trade him for David Price or Clayton Kershaw?
Chris Davis or Max Ramirez?
I’ve attended quite a few Frisco Roughrider (Rangers AA) games over the past few years. I’m really not that impressed with Davis. He’s impatient & swings at a lot of pitches. I got the feeling he was going out there without a gameplan. I can’t envision him hitting for a high average in the bigs. Max Ramirez (who has been playing first recently) can work the count & the ball sounds like it’s been crushed off his bat. That’s as amateurish an opinion can get.
Not that I think either one is worth Cain. But with the Rangers drafting Smoak & Davis (supposedly) almost ready, maybe Ramirez would be available for a pitcher not named Cain.
Don't think, it could only hurt the ballclub.
Fair enough
The Rangers are a good trading partner, yes?
I am confused at the meh attitude towards Davis. So he doesn’t walk a lot. Neither did a beloved Giant who happened to play third base. Yes, Matt Williams was a much better defender than Davis, but as hitters they seem very similar.
I’d be fine with Ramirez, though.
And, for the last time, if we were to trade Cain away I would expect more than just one of those guys.
Only 900 games until the end of Zito's contract
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