Keith Law says the Giants probably have a top 5 farm system
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jun 11, 2008 10:56 PM PDT
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In his chat on espn.com today somebody asked Keith Law about the Giants farm system:
Kenny (Sacramento): After the last 2 drafts, which appeared to be solid, where would you rank the Giants farm system? 
Keith Law: Assuming they get these guys signed, which I assume they will, they're probably top five.
Now this is only one guy's opinion, and shouldn't be taken as gospel, but isn't it amazing that in just a couple of years the Giants have gone from what was universally recognized as one of the worst systems in baseball to one that can even be considered close to the top five? Even more impressive considering the first rounder from 2006 isn't part of the system because he has already graduated.
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Having the six early picks in the 2007 draft helped the farm immensely. The couple of early picks in 2008 will go a long way. The signing of Angel Villalona was another big boost to the farm system.
Here is some 2008 draft information from Andrew Baggarly’s Blog.
by wilriv21 on Jun 11, 2008 11:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jason Jarvis academically ineligible for cheating on a Music Appreciation test? At least it wasn’t an ethics test, I suppose.
Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?
by scotterduder on Jun 12, 2008 12:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone cheats on those, he just got caught. Jarvis is nasty, just a little immature.
by JackoASU on Jun 12, 2008 1:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, apparently,
has no appreciation for music.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jun 13, 2008 6:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too am impressed with our farm system's fast rebuild
and it’ll only get better next year when we have another top 10, maybe top 5 pick. Maybe we can get a Pedro Alvarez or Justin Smoak so we have a polished college hitting prospect that could be a good cleanup hitter someday. We could use one of those incase AnVil doesn’t work out. But I can’t wait till we start churning out some hitting to go with our pitching.
by boonitez on Jun 11, 2008 11:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
get a Pedro Alvarez or Justin Smoak?
I’m pretty sure both of those guys just got drafted by other teams.
by WTF on Jun 12, 2008 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he means Alvarez or Smoak type of hitter.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 12, 2008 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is why he said “a Pedro Alvarez or Justin Smoak”, and not “Pedro Alvarez or Justin Smoak”.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on Jun 13, 2008 3:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now they have to graduate them
For a long time the A’s had farm system ranked in the middle of the pack, but seemed to churn out a couple of average or better players every season. I’m also skeptical of such a high ranking based almost exclusively on talent in or below A-ball. It’s good to draft highly rated talent, but one of the major knocks on the Giants in recent years has been their coaching and development of position players.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
by Bhaakon on Jun 12, 2008 12:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute...
I thought at the offseason we had a historically bankrupt farm system.
MAKE UP YOUR MIND SPORTS MEDIA!
Don't you it's gonna be all right. But not right now.
by Revolution1 on Jun 12, 2008 12:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
No one said we had a bankrupt system, but it was a lower tiered one. I think Kevin Goldstein from BP had us in the lower 20’s.
by xanthan on Jun 12, 2008 5:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
morally bankrupt
cheating on music appreciation tests??!?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 12, 2008 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
...Law was higher on the Giants’ system than most even before this draft. I can’t remember if it was a chat or an article, but he toyed with the idea of putting them top-five after 2007’s draft.
by Grant on Jun 12, 2008 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Giants were ranked 23rd headed into this season, idk who ever said we had a bankrupt system. What’s funny is the system was improved last year yet their ranking dropped by 3 spots from their pre-season ranking by BA heading into 07 to 08.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 12:36 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s what losing (or graduating if you’d rather) Lincecum and Sanchez from prospect status will do to your system.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Jun 12, 2008 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know....
A lot of the Padres chuckleheads right before the season started, when they would talk about the Giants and our farm system, they’d use words and terms like “disarray” and “in shambles” liberally (for a bunch of conservative a-holes looking through preview mags). For the Padres homers, they sure seem to like to throw stones in their glass temples since their farm system is piss-poor when you look for a stellar prospect after Chase Headley and Matt Antonelli and that they’ve drafted position player after position player with one of the highest bust rates around. Then regard Khalil Greene as one of the “pre-eminent” shortstops in the NL…according to every single announcer on the team’s payroll. If being all-glove and a poor batting average is the standard for that, don’t tell them they’re wrong!
I do hope this draft class puts us in the top 10 at least and the Padres’ unbridled arrogance keeps building steam and takes them higher in the NL West standings, while we go lower. They do need talent, but I’m all for building a logjam of talent wherever we can…however possible!
it's always noonan somewhere
by sectionop92 on Jun 12, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now if only we could find out who the hell has been signed by us already. The A’s already snatched up like 20 of their picks.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 12:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Carter Bell
Really want him to sign. Sounds likely. Can’t type in complete sentences.
I was hoping for a turnaround with the 2006 draft, and it looks like that has come to pass. More to build on for 2009 and beyond too. Even the Giants draftees recognize what the organization is doing to improve and that’s motivation for the kids to sign.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2008 6:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Blame Canada
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 12, 2008 8:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With all their hockey hullabaloo and that bitch Anne Marie too!
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2008 8:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Baron doing her best WilRiv imitation. Do like.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jun 13, 2008 6:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Plus as wilriv mentioned the Northwest League season starts early—next week!Crawford, Quirarte, Kieschnick, Gillaspie et al better get on it to get to Salem-Keizer. No Posey until the Seminoles are out of the CWS, though.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 12, 2008 7:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope Fairley gets healthy and gets some games in.
by xanthan on Jun 12, 2008 7:09 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It seems that hating Sabean is becoming more and more difficult. He’s been making a lot more good moves than bad, and moves he didn’t make look smart in retrospect.
Obviously, Lincecum for Rios would have been tragic. I’m also glad he didn’t make the rumored Sanchez for Godzilla trade. People here were crying “DFA Durham!” from the mountain tops. That might not have been such a good idea as he’s now been contributing and has value as a keeper or trade bait.
And now the biggest complaint about him, the farm system sucktitude, seems to be a mute point, for all intensive purposes.
Medium-to-big ups, Sabes!
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 12, 2008 7:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ye of little faith...
I will wait until after the trade deadline before I pat Sabean on the back.
Proud supporter of the Fightin' Hydrants.
by Little Napoleon on Jun 12, 2008 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much. I want to see what happens over the deadline.
by xanthan on Jun 12, 2008 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understandable.
Question: What was the last truly indefensibly horrible decision Sabean has made? (Things like “Taking Posey instead of Smoak” doesn’t count because there’s plenty of evidence from experts that say Posey is the better pick. )
I’m trying to think of the last truly bad move and I have to go back to the Roberts signing. I still think Zito’s signing wasn’t Sabean’s call, but we’ll probably never know for sure.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 12, 2008 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito, definitely Zito and the idea that Sabean was forced into that contract has never had a shred of actual proof to back up the claim.
And even if Sabean was pressured, the moves that the Giants make go on his resume and part of his job is to deal with management.
His recent FA signings have been mixed, Roberts and Aurilia have provided almost no value. Molina has been decent and it’s too early to tell with Rowand, though he’s having a nice brief first season. The Giants drastically overvalued Mike Matheny and his defense. The Matt Morris contract was bad, even if they got out of the last year.
by xanthan on Jun 12, 2008 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Circumstantial evidence regarding Zito: Maowan’s out and Sabean was re-signed. I think if had been Sabean’s call, we probably would have seen a different outcome. I heard Magowan sort of accept responsibility regarding Zito with Ralph and Tom.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 12, 2008 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What did he sort of, say? No way he came out and said Zito was a mistake while he’s still in office and Zito is still on the team. Maybe you’re reading too much between the lines on that one?
by xanthan on Jun 12, 2008 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
A few weeks before he announced his retirement, he said (paraphrasing) “It looks like signing Zito might very well have been a mistake, although there’s still time for him to do well over the term of the deal.”
then I thought he said “I’ll responsibility if it was a mistake.”
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 12, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aurilia signing is kind of defensible
I thought it was a pretty okay signing, because he was hitting well the year before and more importantly, he’s a utility guy all over the diamond. To me, if the notion were that Aurilia would be an infield sub, getting fairly regular at bats while spelling everyone else, I’d say the pick was solid.
Of course, he’s kind of turned into the Constant Starter, which sucks, but if he’s a utility guy, it’s not a bad pickup.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Jun 12, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean’s on a roll, no doubt. But it’s hard to believe that the decision-making process that led to Zito, Roberts, Morris, Hillenbrand, et al. has really changed. I don’t really care who was the prime mover behind the Zito deal was, because it fits perfectly in with Sabean’s career-long failures: not understanding how players age, not understanding replacement level, not understanding how to read stats.
by Evan on Jun 12, 2008 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
..if your name is on the door and the boss tries to make a bad decision, it is your job to change his mind or resign. Sabean stayed. He owns Zito.
by wcw on Jun 12, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
apple and oranges
That’s fine and dandy in corporate America, but if you are dealing with the actual owner, it’s my way or the highway, no matter how much of an idiot the owner is.
It’s like Goofus noted, Magowan is out, Sabean is still here, and he got a two year extension based on the plan he presented to the managing owners.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 12, 2008 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but (my favorite beginning)...
...if you’re Sabean and your boss insists on signing a Barry Zito, you can’t just roll over and do what the boss says – because the signing will be forever linked to your name. And your reputation is what gets you future jobs. So it’s not in a GM’s best interest to bow to that kind of pressure.
As wcw aptly described it, your job is to change the boss’s mind or quit.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jun 13, 2008 6:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t agree that it’s incumbent upon anyone to quit in such a situation. My argument is that whether Magowan drove the signing or not, there’s no reason to think that Sabean disagreed with it. Zito is exactly the kind of pitcher he traditionally overrates. He signed basically the same pitcher the year before in Matt Morris, and no one is suggesting that was mandated from above.
by Evan on Jun 13, 2008 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you Evan
I was merely saying that, even if you asume best-case scenario for Sabean (he was forced to sign the Albatross), that still isn’t a good excuse.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jun 13, 2008 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like my paychecks too much to quit my job if my boss makes a decision I don’t agree with. Unless it’s over something ethical/moral, I’ll object strongly, but won’t quit.
Some may call that spineless, but I call it realistic.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 13, 2008 12:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, I have to agree with goofus again. I hate it when that happens. The non moves that Giants’ have made have been very good this year, and the one big FA signing (Rowand) is playing very well. It is fun seeing all these kids get playing time, and I just wish Frandsen wouldn’t have been hurt so badly in ST. It would make it even better to see him on the diamond every day.
by tyrannoman on Jun 12, 2008 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m probably the worst when it comes to rating Sabean, which is one of the reasons I adopted him. (guilt) I defended him when others were calling for his head, and when I finally decided the “lunatic fringe” was correct about him and he SHOULD be fired, he is starting to turn it around.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jun 13, 2008 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it's your fault Mark?
Somehow your adoption has caused the Bizarro Sabean to come to our world? That would explain a lot.
Dang, regular Brian must be confusing the heck out of Bizarro world right now. I wonder which veteran he’s already traded for in the Bizarro major leagues….
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on Jun 13, 2008 6:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had the Giants DFAed Durham...
and he went on to produce for another team, that wouldn’t bother me one bit. He didn’t/doesn’t have a TON of value and is blocking guys like Denker and Burriss who might be part of a future, contending Giants club. The fact that we still have Durham and he might net a lower-level prospect in a trade is fine, but the converse wouldn’t have been the end of the world either.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 12, 2008 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Denker and Burriss should be in AA. He’s not really blocking them any more than he’s blocking Velez. He was blocking Frandsen, but that problem solved itself, unfortunately.
by Evan on Jun 12, 2008 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, yeah
Neither Denker nor Burriss is a bona fide major leaguer, so Ray isn’t blocking them per se. I guess what I meant was in this rebuilding year, it doesn’t matter much to the Giants whether Ray comes, stays, lays, or prays.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 12, 2008 9:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but if guys belong in the minors, nothaving a Durham on the big team means you have to rush guys up before they’ve had a chance to progress through the system properly.
I think Velez is a great example of a that. The only thing that may have helped him by being on the big club is learning how much he needs to improve.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 12, 2008 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m not sure how big a handicap that is, really (being promoted too quickly). I suppose it can destroy a guy’s confidence, but I don’t think it’s a given that it will have adverse effects. I imagine some guys will benefit and even thrive when confronted with superior competition.
Just my $.02, I guess. But still, ship Durham please. :-)
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
by delorean on Jun 12, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the second base situation has worked out rather well. The injury to Frandsen enabled them to keep Durham who has been productive, plus get enough of a look at Velez and Denker to decide whether they can battle a healthy Frandsen next year for the job. I think Durham is gone at the deadline, they get something decent, and Denker and Velez get two full months to show what they can do.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jun 13, 2008 6:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're on it!
You’re right on it, Evan! Nice insight. I’m thinking the Giants’ front office should hire you.
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re all nervous about getting on Evan’s bad side, but let’s not get carried away with the kissing up. :-)
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 15, 2008 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a long ways between treading water and swimming in the Olympics.
Over the last year and change I would say Sabean has been successfully treading water. If he makes it past July without a net gain in over 30 MLB vets I’ll give him an "A" in treading water. If he enters August with a net loss of over 30 MLB veteran I will recommend him for the next class.
I agree the Albatross did drop some of its "dump" on his desk but kind of lean toward Goofus’s point. The bulk of it landed on Magowan’s desk.
Hillenbrand was inexcusable and is a nice little example of what happens when a club gets into a "buy at any price" mind set.
One thing about Aurilia is he has absorbed a lot more innings then I thought he would. Without him we could very well still be seeing Bocock or Velez stunt any possible growth in S.F. Search your hart for you know it is true.
At the time I thought the Roberts contract was a reach but had some insurance qualities to it. Remember Lewis & Nate had shown nothing at the MLB level. Bowker was with out his break out year in Conn. We could just as easily been looking at say a couple Lindens and Elisions out there instead. In hind sight though it has not worked well at all for the club.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on Jun 12, 2008 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really like the Hillenbrand trade, but I don’t think it was as bad as a lot of others on this board. The Giants’ did give up Accardo (who I really liked and feel the Alou totally mismanaged), but they got back a descent bat, and a servicable reliever. It was certainly a win now kind of move, and Hillenbrand’s total and complete meltdown while with the Giants made sure the move didn’t pay off, but I think it was a gamble worth taking.
by tyrannoman on Jun 12, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the ‘06 Squad had a lot of wholes even then. If the Giants had been getting a Hillenbrand a couple season before I could see the move but this was a guy the other team ( The Jays) were royally pissed at ( for fighting with the manager) and we gave up an arm like Accardo? To be fair I thopught Accardo would be a nice ‘pen ar not nessarly a real good closer. To me it stank like old fish with out ice when it arrived and it just got more fun.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on Jun 12, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed -- not an addlepated Sabean special
I didn’t expect Accardo to be as good as he’s become, either. I did, however, hate Hillenbrand as Yet Another Vetaran Hacker.
by wcw on Jun 12, 2008 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought
Although I too liked Jeremy Accardo, I thought the trade was worth the gamble. It was a gamble I didn’t expect to work out (since Hillenbrand was IMO an overrated hitter), but the Giants needed to catch some lightning in a bottle, and Shea seemed as likely to provide it as anyone they could afford at the deadline.
Brian said at the time of the trade that while Jeremy was the better prospect, Vinnie might pitch as well or better the rest of the season—and he did. Didn’t the Giants get one of last year’s draft choices as a result of Shea’s being a free agent? Or was that not the case?
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
when you go with older guys, it’s pretty much a crapshoot. They can have bad injury filled years, or they can have one of those turn back the clock years. I think Sabean used a faulty philosophy in picking the veterans he signed, but while all of them were bad last year, they have all been decent to good this year. Sabean was not dumb last year, and he’s not smart this year. It’s been all a matter of luck. A solid GM doesn’t need luck though. Sabean’s faulty philosophy involves signing the wrong type of veterans. If you’re going to sign veterans, the first thing to avoid is those veterans who built their career on speed and power, because those are the first things to go. When it comes to pitchers, the first thing to go is the mph on their fastballs. Therefore when you sign old guys, you look to the ones who constantly get on base, because selectivity at the plate only improves as you get older, or in the case of pitchers, get the ones who never relied on just velocity to get hitters out. Sabean’s bad signings were pretty predictable with that criteria. Roberts, Klesko, Durham, Aurilia, etc. The veteran signings are even more risky these days with the cracking down on PED’s and amphetamines. They just can’t compete with the young guys. Most GM’s would have lost their jobs already, but Sabean has hung on long enough to come around to the right kind of thinking, and it now looks like he’ll be here for awhile.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Jun 13, 2008 6:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well one factor that can’t be overstated was Bonds presence.
I don’t mean his personality or any of that crap. Sabean and Company realized they had once in a generational player ( if not generations) and a lot of those moves were made with only 1 season, perhaps 2 seasons, in mind from ’04 tell last August. No Bonds and there is no reason to insanely over value the first year or two of a players association with a club.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on Jun 13, 2008 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By your logic, Klesko was a samrt signing. He was a high OBP guy. In addition, the fact that he was coming off an injury made him pretty low-risk since he came cheaply.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 13, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was fine
I was fine with the Klesko signing. He came cheaply, and was the type of player who might have rebounded well. Ryan had unfortunately lost his power, but he got on base decently. The Giants needed hitting to back up Barry Bonds from SOMEWHERE, and I thought a platoon of Klesko and Aurilia had at least a CHANCE of providing it.
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 10:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Insurance
The Roberts signing DID have an element of insurance. The problem was that the Giants didn’t realize that only if several of their hitters had career or near-career years did they have a chance to truly contend. What I’m saying is that if they reached the point where they needed insurance, it wasn’t going to matter anyway.
The Giants badly misjudged their ability to score runs in 2007 IMO. There was really no way to know that Ray Durham and Omar Vizquel would have such down years, but even if those guys had hit, how were the Giants going to replace Moises Alou with Dave Roberts? And it wasn’t as if they Giants were scoring machines in 2006.
Let’s be honest. Take away Barry Bonds, and the Giants wouldn’t have been a good-hitting team since at LEAST 2002 and perhaps back as far as 2000. The Giants actually scored 925 runs in 2000, meaning that for arguably the last time, they didn’t rely very, VERY heavily on Barry Bonds.
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more question
I haven’t followed the farm stuff closely for all that long. When was the last time the Giants had a top-5 system? Was it when they had Clark-Thompson-Williams? Was the system real deep beyond those guys?
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 12, 2008 8:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
top-5 seems like a stretch
..but I am pretty happy with this year’s draft, and while I wanted the team really to step up to the plate last year, with all those high picks they managed to get a few promising players in. I’ll give them better-than-average assuming they sign all their first-day picks, top-quartile if they sign a few of the tough signs they picked late on day two.
by wcw on Jun 12, 2008 9:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure its that big of a stretch
The Giants have some very good young talent in Bum, Alderson, Sosa, Tanner, Snyder, English, Pucetas, Noonan, Villalona, Sandoval, and then you add in this draft with guys like Posey, Kieschnick, Gillaspie, and Crawford (who all were considered 1st round talent at one time or another). And some of the other guys they took have considerable talent as well. If signed it enhances the system that much more. The only problem of course is almost all of these guys will be lower then AA. But ranking systems is always about projection anyway, so you’ll often see teams with a lot of younger prospects being ranked pretty high.
There’s also the re-emergence by Thomas Neal (who’s only 20), and good play from some older prospects at SJ like Ryan Rohlinger, Matt Downs, Travis Ishikawa and EME, that could enhance the Giants system ranking.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with the thrust of your point, but I don’t think Snyder, English, and Pucetas quite belong with the rest in that list. They’re C level prospects for me at the moment.
http://minorgiants.wordpress.com/
Where the relative merits of Joe Paterson and Daniel Otero are hashed out over knife fights and tea.
by RougeGorrila on Jun 12, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some teams would be lucky to have pitching prospects like Snyder and co.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well sure. I would bet the Astros farm system is such that they would love to have Snyder. It’s not to say these players don’t have any value. It’s just that they’re not on the same level as the other prospects you listed who would actually impact how the Giants farm system measures up against other farm systems.
In other words, Snyder and co. add valuable depth to a team’s minor league system. But depth is not as important as ceiling when evaluating the strength of an organization. That is, having three Pat Misches or Brad Hennesseys (or Geno Espinelis or Joey Martinezes) is useful, but rarely would they influence whether or not a minor league system is a top five system, whereas a Nick Noonan or Henry Sosa or Nate Schierholtz would.
This of course is contingent on how you see Snyder and co panning out. I see them as future Brad Hennesseys and Pat Misches. If you see them as middle of the rotation starters, then it’s a moo point.
http://minorgiants.wordpress.com/
Where the relative merits of Joe Paterson and Daniel Otero are hashed out over knife fights and tea.
by RougeGorrila on Jun 12, 2008 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Snyder is better then Hennessey and Misch. He’s probably capable of being a #4 or #5 starter. The other 2 are not. They’re like #6/long relief guys, at best.
But that’s what I meant we have more depth now, and we still have impact talent. That will give us a higher ranking. And that’s with 9 of the top 30 prospects having reached the majors already this year, and Schierholtz likely to be promoted sometime this year too. Albeit more than half of those 9 were rushed to the majors, and a few will still have prospect status next year. It’s actually 12 guys if you count TImpner, Sadler and Hinshaw, who weren’t in the top 30 by BA. Since they’ve all made an appearance this year.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
i can buy that argument.
http://minorgiants.wordpress.com/
Where the relative merits of Joe Paterson and Daniel Otero are hashed out over knife fights and tea.
by RougeGorrila on Jun 12, 2008 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If
If I were another team, I wouldn’t be willing to give up much for Snyder, English AND Pucetas, let alone for only one of them. I would be surprised if at least one of them doesn’t make the majors, but I don’t seem them as impact pitchers. Only Snyder appears to me to have much more than replacement-level capability.
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, come on!
The guy just used the phrase “thrust of your point,” and nobody even flinched???
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Jun 13, 2008 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To those of us who’ve done time, it takes a harder thrust than that to make us flinch.
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 13, 2008 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think top-five is too far off
I don’t think top-five is TOO far off for the Giants. IMO what really makes a system is the top-notch prospects, and I feel that in Posey, Bumgarner and Villalona, the Giants have one of the best top tiers around. I’m also pretty confident in Alderson, Sosa, Noonan, Fairley and Schierholtz as second-tier prospects. That’s a darn good nine to start with.
Other teams likely have more DEPTH in the farm system than the Giants (who have almost nothing above Class A), but to me the Giants’ high level of prospect (One could argue that Alderson is top-tier, not second-tier—and probably be right.) overcomes the depth of other teams.
If I were a farm system franchise, I might prefer the depth. But as a fan, I prefer the quality over the quantity. And IMO the Giants DO have decent depth in the lower minors. It is merely in the upper minors that the cupboard is virtually bare.
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing what drafting early and often in the first round does for your reputation as GM
This makes sense, even before the Rodriguez signing, we have four legitimate major league prospects who not only will make the majors but should be good, in Angel Villalona, Madison Bumgarner, Tim Alderson, and now Buster Posey, plus Schierholtz is probably included since he’s still considered a rookie right now, so that’s potential 5 major leaguers, plus whatever you think Velez, Burriss, Sosa, etc can potentially do.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jun 12, 2008 5:47 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You're only showing how legitimate those criticisms of our system were
We have certainly had the kinds of picks that would get us Alderson before. Villalona wasn’t drafted. Schierholtz wasn’t a first round pick. Velez, Burriss, and Sosa were all the kinds of players that we could have acquired before.
That list is proof that while a consistently winning team probably won’t have a top 5 system (due to the lack of Bumgarner and Posey), they can easily be in the middle.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Jun 12, 2008 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
in the past we were ranked about in the middle. In 2002 for instance we were ranked 12th.
Ranked 11th in 2003. 2004 24th, 2005 17th, 2006 18th. 2007 20th.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The 04/05 drafts were pretty terrible for the Giants, as they lost a bunch of picks due to free agent signings. No wonder they were ranked so low in the following years.
http://minorgiants.wordpress.com/
Where the relative merits of Joe Paterson and Daniel Otero are hashed out over knife fights and tea.
by RougeGorrila on Jun 12, 2008 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is a big reason why yes. Especially 2005, which was very strong. But the last 3 years have been pretty good for the Giants, luckily at least so far.
by Hobbes2d on Jun 12, 2008 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sosa not so-so
I think Sosa can be better than so-so, but likely not Burriss and particularly Velez. I LOVE Velez and Burriss. Eugenio was my favorite position player before being sent down. Now Emmanuel has taken his place. But I don’t think either one is going to hit well enough to make an impact.
I do give Manny a bit of a chance—but only a bit of a chance to become any type of impact player, and even that would likely be low-impact.
by sharksrog on Jun 13, 2008 10:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But being Soso would be more manly than being Sosa
2008 Giants: Scrappy! Scrappy! Joy! Joy!
by Goofus on Jun 15, 2008 8:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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