Pain
by Grant on May 9, 2008 11:17 AM PDT
85 comments
"It’s a fine line between clever and stupid." – Nigel Tufnel.
That’s always been one of the more functional movie lines out there. It works for so many situations. Allow me to bastardize it.
It’s a fine line between a watchable team and sheer torture. Before yesterday’s game, the Giants were bebopping along with a strangely satisfying record of 14-20. There shouldn’t be enough ecstasy in the world to make you feel alright with that record…but, hey, there were positives to be found. I could dig it. You could dig it.
Now they’re 14-21, and I could probably take a month off from watching another game. It’s a fine line between a watchable team and sheer torture. The difference is in how the team loses. I can deal with a team scoring three runs a game under the right circumstances. Maybe in one game, John Bowker goes 0-4 with four Ks, but Fred Lewis hits a pair of opposite field doubles. Maybe in the next game, the performances are reversed. The end result is a bad offensive team, but it’s a bad offensive team that’s at least building toward something. There’s a glimmer of hope.
What I can’t deal with is the constant spirit melting that accompanies every freaking Matt Cain start. A young pitcher, who left his last game with a tender hamstring, is cruising through six innings. He has 93 pitches at the end of six, he’s in line for the win, and he’s scheduled to bat in the top of the seventh. I can make a case that this young pitcher should go out for the seventh. A manager could say something like:
You might disagree, but it isn’t a totally unreasonable argument.
Except this is Matt Cain! He’s cursed, dammit. Some Greek goddess came down in the form of a llama and tried to seduce him, but Cain didn’t really want to make it with a llama, the goddess got offended, and now Cain is forever doomed to pitch well in losing efforts. I’m pretty sure it’s in the Metamorphoses.
You pull Cain in that situation, if only to prevent him from taking a loss. Good effort, kid. Those were six innings of good ball. If the bullpen blows it, the bullpen blows it, but your job is done. There will be a whole season to try and stretch his endurance. For now, though, just worry about breaking the streak of unpleasantness. Just worry about getting Cain on a normal cycle of ups and downs before treating him like any other pitcher.
The constant canoe-paddle-to-the-face feeling that accompanies Matt Cain’s starts is wearing me down, and I’m just some dink who watches too much baseball. I can’t imagine being the guy who is actually losing all of these games.
Mercy for Matt Cain. Please. It’s a fine line between a watchable team and sheer torture.
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plus..
With Cain’s velocity down, I might be extra careful. Personally, Cain’s decreased velocity is very high on the Threat Meter.(which needs updating)
Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.
by irwin on May 9, 2008 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gameday had him at 93/94 yesterday. Or was I reading that wrong?
by Grant on May 9, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen , Chief.
The Care And Feeding Of Your Matt Cain should be one of those high imperatives as far as managerial reading , if they genuinely have a conscious eye toward a successful present/future pitching staff.
Psyches aren’t fictional things , they do exist. And it would take an almost superhuman resolution to withstand the constant failure that Matt has had to suffer at the hands of mismanagement and lack of offensive/bullpen support.
This same lack of proper handling has been bandied about ad nauseum here for so long it’s positively astounding that those minds paid to make professional baseball decisions haven’t come to the same conclusions themselves and acted accordingly.
If I didn’t know better (and , really , I don’t) I’d say they either didn’t give a flying fuck about his mental/physical preservation or they were fucking idiots. Or just really , really unlucky.
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on May 9, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't catch gameday
But too many games that I have seen have him at 90-91 far too often for my comfort. I would love to see someone with a bunch of time look at his pitch f/x over the last couple years and check it out completely. I suggest assigning that task to an intern
Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.
by irwin on May 9, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the Chron (I know, awesome source)
There was a quote from Cain saying that he was throwing a little softer for the sake of increasing his control. He also said he liked being able to stay effective in the low nineties but still be able to dial it up higher sometimes when he needs it. He might just be saying that for our sake, but in any case he did say it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 9, 2008 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t he at 97 pitches before the 7th though?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 11:37 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
In any case, it doesn’t make a big difference. I agree that it’s not really a bad thing to just play it safe with Cain, if only for the reason you stated, to avoid losses. I feel like the set-up types in the bullpen were relatively well rested going into the game. (Am I right? They didn’t really pitch in the first two games of the series, did they?)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taschner was (obviously) rested and ready. Valdez had thrown THREE PITCHES on Tuesday night and hadn’t pitched at all on Wednesday. Chulk had thrown an inning Tuesday night and was ready. Brian Wilson was ready.
In other words, you had a tailor-made situation: a two-run lead in the bottom of the 7th with your key bullpen guys rested and ready to take you to the promised land of a “W”. As Grant says, if they come on and shit the bed, hey it sucks, but things happen. To start the inning with your hard-luck starter at nearly 100 pitches - and then to NOT PULL HIM after the first two batters get on base - is purely bad managing and nothing else. I’m not sure how you’d argue otherwise.
24 hours later and I’m still upset about this.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on May 9, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeh. wut yu sed.
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on May 9, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. I was pissed-off yesterday and I’m still angry about it today.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
”...then to NOT PULL HIM after the first two batters get on base…”
This is the part that really got to me as well. It’s one thing to send him back out there for the 7th - stupid, but defensible (as Grant outlined) - but what kind of twisted rationale could you possibly come up with to leave him in once the tying runs were in scoring position with none out? “I just wanted to give him a chance to get the loss”?
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 9, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the rationale is that if you don’t leave him in in tough late-inning situations, he’ll never learn how to pitch through them. I personally was rooting for a can ‘o’ bullpen, but there’s something to be said for the school of hard knocks.
by Johnny Disaster on May 9, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Cain is perfectly familiar w/ that school, thanks.
I believe they are comissioning a statue, in his honor.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 12, 2008 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes me wonder
There have been lots of calls of late, on KNBR mostly, for Bochy/Rags to “just let the kids pitch.” You know, that stupid macho bullshit about pitch counts turning us into a nation of sissies and stuff. Does anyone suspect that this kind of outcry has anything to do with leaving Cain in in situations like this, or is it merely coincidence?
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on May 9, 2008 11:45 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
"Stupid" being the operant term there.
It’s been Chronicled so damned often that it’s no longer a coincidence how his fortunes go when he gets up around 100ish…when does the learning curve flatten out? Hasn’t our mid relief/setup/closer combo held relatively well of late?
I’d STILL like to know whose decision five straight curves was , however…is it executive decision from The Big Bobblehead or do Cain and his catcher du jour have carte blanche?
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on May 9, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My prediction?
Paaaaaain.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on May 9, 2008 12:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
He should have been pulled
Cain did his job, and was near 100 pitches. The ‘pen was rested and ready. He had a lead, and should have been pinch-hit for and allowed to call it a day. Instead, he’s allowed to hit in the 7th inning, and then endures some questionable-at-best pitch selection when it seemed he was running out of gas.
When your starting pitcher gives you six quality innings on the road and a lead, at the back end of a dreadful road trip, and you have a rested bullpen, you pull the starter and make others do their job just as well as he did. If they don’t, you deal with them, but you don’t doom the kid to another potential loss because of your own stupidity.
Bochy and Rags provided Exhibit A yesterday on why their asses should be gone.
by Buck Henry on May 9, 2008 12:26 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Are there managers in the league who have this sort of automatic rule? My impression is that the entire league plays it this way, guy going well, bring him out for the 7th.
by allfrank on May 9, 2008 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Buck, this has to be the least thought out, most knee jerkey (mmm….knee jerkey) response I’ve ever read.
"When your starting pitcher gives you six quality innings on the road and a lead, at the back end of a dreadful road trip, and you have a rested bullpen, you pull the starter and make others do their job just as well as he did"When did this become some sort of common knowledge? This seems like total opinion stated as fact. You totally ignore the bunt that was an umpire mistake, then the fact he was pulled after two hitters. Yes, it sucks that the Giants’ lost, but Cain didn’t do his job. 100 pitches isn’t the magic number at all. From all the research I’ve looked at, it seems to be around 120, which Cain should have been able to get out of the inning with.
You can quibble with Bochy and Rags’ on some things, but that’s is just asinine.
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops
ment four batters. Sorry about that.
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess you don't get out much
tyrannoman, if my observation was the least thought out, most knee-jerky, asinine response you have read, God help you and those around you. Your ridicule isn’t warranted just because someone disagrees with you, especially on something as relatively trivial as baseball.
I don’t recall ever saying that “Conventional baseball strategy dictates . . .”.
Through six innings, Cain DID do his job. To me, it was Bochy’s job to protect a lead and a possible win on the road at the back end of a bad road trip, not toss the guy out there to shoot way past 100 pitches with a rested bullpen.
You and I can disagree on baseball strategy, and why Cain even was allowed to bat in the 7th, but your response is over the top.
by Buck Henry on May 9, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps
it is over the top, but your response does seem quite from the hip, with little thought. We can disagree, but when you end your post with “Bochy and Rags provided Exhibit A yesterday on why their asses should be gone.” it seems to me that you just want the manager and pitching coach fired and used this as an excuse to rake them over the coals.
I wasn’t ridculing you, just reacting to what I red in your post. Perhaps, without the context of a spoken word, I read your post with more hostility than you ment it. If that’s so, I am sorry I came off as hostile. To me, your argument is backwards, with the ends being used to jusitfy a position you had before the incident.
And nobody every disagrees with me on anything : )
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
First of all, the obvious. Why pull him for a pinch hitter when the team can’t hit and he already has two hits in the game?? Second of all, why pull him after two batters, when one of them had a bunt single in which he was actually out, and the other hit was by somebody who was absolutely on fire?? And here’s where I piss everyone off. Everybody loves Matt Cain, (as I do) but I’m tired on giving him a pass like everyone else does. Nothing is ever his fault. He’s still very young, but he’s hardly a rookie. The great ones smell that victory and that finish line and they close the other team out and turn the game over to the setup man and closer, or they even finish the team off themselves. Matt Cain didn’t do that. The Pirates are a piece of shit baseball team, and Matt Cain should go out there in the seventh inning and blow them away. He did the same thing earlier in the season against the Cardinals. He was given five runs in the sixth inning, (he helped with a solo HR) and then he immediately gave two back in the seventh, forcing Bochy to go the bullpen. It’s basically damned if you do and damned if you don’t with Cain, and you can be sure if the bullpen had blown it for him yesterday we would be complaining that Bochy shouldn’t have taken him out. To me the difference between Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain is that you know damn well that Lincecum would have not given up a pair of doubles in the seventh inning with a two run lead. Matt Cain has had a lot of bad luck the last two years, but he brings alot of it upon himself.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on May 9, 2008 12:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Have to agree with you
He has to pitch into the 7th in this situation. He is a big league starter, and that’s what they are supposed to do. If Bochy goes to the ‘pen here, and Valdez/Taschner/whoever gives up 3 runs, there is a post here screaming that Cain never should’ve been lifted.
The Pirates have some sort of weird fairy dust they sprinkle over the Giatns’ the last three years that allows them to run roughshod over the local nine. If those games were against any other team, the Giants’ take two of three.
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You just pissed everyone off
Actually, I agree with you to the extent that Cain deserves his share of the blame. He’s maddeningly inconsistent from start to start, walks too many, throws too many pitches. He doesn’t always help his own cause.
And if you want to bring him out to start the bottom of the 7th yesterday, I think it’s a bad call, but at least I can see the logic behind that move. But you HAVE to have him (or any starter in that scenario) on a short leash. Bochy left him in there to face FOUR batters. The first two reached base. To quote Josh From Hollywood higher up the page, “what kind of twisted rationale could you possibly come up with to leave him in once the tying runs were in scoring position with none out?”
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on May 9, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, he got the third guy out, and McClouth right now is their biggest threat. Once he was out it was now man on second and one out, and that’s hardly the makings of a huge inning. Once again, this guy is your supposed ace, and as your ace he’s supposed to be the pitcher you most want in the game in a situation like that. Don’t forget, it’s just one legitimate hit there out of those three hitters he faced in that seventh inning. That’s hardly a sign that he has nothing left.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on May 9, 2008 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So it comes down to Cain vs. Jason Bay. You’re Bruce Bochy, and you know (or should know) that Bay is hitting .314 vs. righties for the season but only .212 versus lefties. Oh, and your lefty reliever is warmed up in the bullpen and ready to go. What do you do? If you guessed “Bring in the lefty reliever,” then you guessed wrong. Also, you’re Bruce Bochy.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on May 9, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the lefty..
Is really a right mascarading as a lefty! That’s where you fail to cover your defenses Natto.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on May 9, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what you're trying to say
First you say that Cain gave up only “one legitimate hit there out of those three hitters he faced in that seventh inning”, but on the other hand you say that that he is responsible for the loss and that we “know” Lincecum wouldn’t have given up those runs. It seems like your point is:
A) Cain didn’t pitch that bad so the decision to leave him in was a good one.
B) Cain pitching poorly is the reason we lost and he shouldn’t be given a pass.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on May 9, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
B and some of A. Leaving your ace in the game IS the right move. That being said, the ace has to then do his job. Bochy showed faith in Cain, and Cain failed to reward him for his trust.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on May 9, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a second...
Let me get this straight: The hits were lucky and not Cain’s fault, but the loss is Cain’s fault even though it came due to the hits he gave up which were not his fault?
Also, you keep saying Lincecum is better than Cain, but then insist that Cain is “our ace”. How can both be true?
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 9, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The hits were lucky and not Cain’s fault, but the loss is Cain’s fault even though it came due to the hits he gave up which were not his fault?
This is what confused me. And I don’t really get the hole “the ace has to do his job” thingie. Like aces never give up runs? If we “know” Lincecum wouldn’t have given up those runs, then how come his ERA isn’t 0.00? If he really knew how to never give up runs in the late innings, he would do the same things in the early ones.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on May 10, 2008 1:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Barry Zito was supposed to be our Ace.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 9, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Cain, while he obviously has some pretty horrible luck, often puts himself into situations that allow that sort of bad “luck” to happen. I think I’ve been as critical of Matt as anyone; I’m extremely disappointed, for example, in his irritatingly high walk totals so far this season (especially after he walked only 14 batters in the last two months last season.) I’ve honestly felt deflated, waking up in the morning to find out he walked 5 batters in 6 innings (or similar).
That said, I think we have to be careful not to go too far away from “giving Matt Cain a pass” to the point where we’re at the other end of the spectrum and complaining about everything that he’s not. I know the “he’s so young!” mantra gets old, but he really is. In many ways, I think we all went into this season with far too much expected of and invested in Matt Cain. I mean, I know I’ve read plenty of season predictions on here that seemed dependent on the idea that Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum would combined for a 2.50 ERA in 435 innings with 475 Ks (yes, this is probably slight hyperbole.) The fact remains that both Tim and Matt are still very young and both of them are still learning how to pitch. They’re both going to have plenty of bumps along the way.
I’m not really sure what I’m trying to say here except that I hope people don’t start really turning on Matt Cain for not being as good as Timmy or for not being a true ace yet. I dunno, maybe I’m getting all sensitive on Matt’s behalf, but I’m starting to feel maybe a bit of anger and frustration in all the Cain disappointment on here? I JUST DON’T WANT PEOPLE TO START HATING HIM OKAY. HE’S JUST A BABY. :((((((((
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry
Tim will self-destruct a few starts this year, and come back down to earth a little.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 9, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not turning on Cain by any streach of the imagination. I do think this is part of the maturation process of nearly every pitcher. I have every confidence that Cain will be in the mix for many Cy Youngs in the years to come. This is all part of the learning process, and it’s an important process.
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, I’m not calling out anyone in particular, it’s just a vibe I’ve been getting lately. Again, I’m probably being oversensitive.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t mean to imply that you were. I was trying (in my own, run on sentence sort of way) to explain my feelings on Matty. I think we all expect Cain and Lincecum to never give up a run, and when they do take the lumps that all pitchers take, we get a little excited.
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly haven’t seen anyone turning on Cain, (maybe sharksrog, but that’s just because he’s not Lincecum) and that’s why I said my comments might piss everyone off. I think alot of us thought that this is the year that he took all of that potential and turned it into superstardom, and while it still might happen this year, he seems to still have the same problems that have plagued him in the past. Lincecum has less big league experience than Matt, and yet we see him maturing almost every time out.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on May 9, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ve pretty much echoed exactly what I was talking about in my first comment. Unfavorable comparison to Tim Lincecum. Unreasonable expectations, i.e. wondering why he hasn’t become a superstar yet a month and a half into his age 23 season. It’s not that I think people are turning on Cain already, but it seems like people are becoming impatient with him because we have another similarly aged pitcher on the team who has come out of the gate looking awesome and hasn’t had a single struggle yet so far this season. I just don’t think that’s entirely fair.
Yes, he’s been disappointing (like I said, no one is more disappointed than me, though I’m happy his walk rate has been down lately) but he’s 23 and he seems healthy (for now anyway). He’s had his share of good starts and a few really awful ones.
No, he’s not Tim Lincecum. Most pitchers in baseball aren’t (though I don’t really think Tim’s going to have a 1.49 ERA the whole year, as much as I’d like it to happen.) We’ve got something really special in Tim Lincecum, for sure. I just don’t think that means Matt Cain is any less special, just because he’s not as good as Tim.
So, it’s certainly fair to criticize Matt Cain for the lack of progress (and indeed, I would say, regression he’s shown so far this year) but I don’t think it’s fair to say stuff like “he’s not maturing like Lincecum!” or “Lincecum would never blow an X-run lead in the Xth inning (because, hello, he’s done it before and he’ll do it again… Cubs game last year, anyone?)”
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dissent. The manager should never make any decisions with an eye to any player’s individual stats. The good of the team as a whole (both long-term and within the game) must be his only concern. And after the game, he can lecture his pitchers about how pitcher wins, saves, ERA, etc are meaningless, archaic relics of a benighted era in baseball stattery.
That said, I definitely would have pinch-hit for Cain in the seventh.
by Evan on May 9, 2008 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s more than stats. I’m not a huge psychology of baseball guy…but this is about as demoralizing as a situation can get for a young pitcher.
by Grant on May 9, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt Cain..
Is about the most demoralized young pitcher ever.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on May 9, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, that’s true. But I usually assume that the manager knows more about his player’s psychology than I do. Managers have to be good at something, right? It sure isn’t their skill as in-game tacticians.
I do think that a good manager would devote some energy to creating a clubhouse atmosphere in which things like a pitcher’s w/r record don’t matter much.
by Evan on May 9, 2008 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree – although on the one hand we are talking about one guy, this one guy can affect the fortunes of the team several more times down the road this season. Irrespective of his W/L record, having him mentally ready to go out there with the expectation of a win (instead of a loss) will pay dividends going forward. If he gets beat down, wins and even no-decisions can more easily become losses through the season.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on May 9, 2008 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Irrespective"
copyright canofcorn2008 all rights reserved
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on May 9, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh heh heh.
It's my blarg! Quick Pitch
by can of corn on May 9, 2008 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm enjoying this season so much
My attitude of “who cares if they win or lose, just enjoy the games is working for the most part.”
The fact that I want the #1 pick helps take the sting out of losses.
I’ve been watching about 2/3 of the games and I root for them to win every single game. I root for them to win the ones I don’t watch. The key is as opposed to most people who want to see them make the playoffs (which is really what people want even though they don’t admit it) I am hoping for a much more beneficial goal that is well within their reach. That top pick.
Oh no! Cain blew a game on his own. Well I say good. This is no one’s fault but his own and he needs to learn how to do this stuff if he is ever going to be anything other than a #2 or #3 starter. We have a #1 and it would be nice to have twin Aces, but that is entirely up to Cain at this point. Bochy is giving him his shot.
by positiveuphemism on May 9, 2008 1:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Canoe Paddle in Face
<The constant canoe-paddle-to-the-face feeling that accompanies Matt Cain’s starts is wearing me down>
Well, first thing that comes to mind... Looks like Ren has a better swing than half the Giants lineup. :(
by riceball55 on May 9, 2008 1:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jon Krickfalusi Goes Insane FTW
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on May 9, 2008 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the question is:
how much more bad could it get for Matt? The answer is none, none more bad.
by sweetjuxtapose on May 9, 2008 1:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know.
I could think of worse situations.
Only 938 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on May 9, 2008 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
IMO
All of the “save his mental state” and “close to 100” pitches arguments are moot.
He was CLEARLY out of gas. We have all watched Matt pitch for a while now, and typically, at some point around the 6-7th, the wheels come off.
The way he pitched the first three batters in the inning demonstrated to me that he was in trouble. It would be one thing if the bullpen was beat up, or the bullpen sucked and you didn’t want the bullpen to blow HIS game.
But our bullpen was rested and our bullpen kicks some serious ass. You really want to get that win to close our the road trip, and you’ve got a 2 run lead in the 7th with your starter around 100 pitches are starting to look a little shaky..
Why on earth would you not pull him? Why Why Why? When it’s a “must win” game from a physiological standpoint (go home w/ a win) and you have all of the resources at your disposal, why even take a chance?
At the time, I thought Cain should be pulled. As soon as he got in trouble – a runner on base (regardless of how he got there) – yank him out and let Valdez/Jack/Tyler/Wilson do their thing.
Pile on top of that all of the mental stuff w/ Cain and everything else, and this is the most obvious decision in the world to me right now.
“Biggers no-brainer in the history of mankind” type of situation.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 9, 2008 1:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think that’s an important distinction to make and one that makes it different from last year… the bullpen, particularly the late inning guys are actually pretty damn good this year. It’s not like last year where you were bringing in a bunch of turds to pitch the late innings. I understood sometimes why Bochy seemed uncomfortable taking Cain out late in games… I feel like that shouldn’t be as much of a concern this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yet the worst performance by the bullpen this year still happened in a Cain start, and that was the game against the Cardinals that he left leading 5-2. Although I wasn’t happy with Cain giving up the two in the seventh, the bullpen should have been able to hold a lead like that. You can’t blame Bochy for trusting Cain more than his bullpen after all he has seen, and Cain is supposed to be better than his bullpen until about 120 pitches, isn’t he??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on May 9, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s one game. as a whole, the bullpen has been quite solid.
And no, it really seems to me like Cain starts to lose effectiveness once he gets to 105-110 pitches (if not earlier).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. People keep on calling him a “workhouse”, but just because he’s a big fella it doesn’t mean he can pitch 120 pitches every game.
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on May 10, 2008 1:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
It is common practice in MLB for managers to protect their pitchers from a loss if they have pitched well. You see it all the time. If the manager has faith in the bullpen and his team has a lead past the 6th inning, the starter will often be pulled 1 batter before the possibility of being on the hook for a loss.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 9, 2008 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
I think Greg Maddux was pulled after throwing something like less than 70 pitches through 6 innings against us this year, and he wasn’t hurting. That’s probably an example of what you’re talking about.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 9, 2008 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was CLEARLY out of gas.
See, this is something I missed by following it on Gameday. I just assumed his sixth inning was smooth after he gave up a single to Nady.
by Grant on May 9, 2008 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You didn’t turn on Gameday’s new “gas gauge” feature? It had Cain right at “E” after the 6th.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on May 9, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn
I thought that was to gauge my interest in Gamcast as the wheels came off…
by tyrannoman on May 9, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that guage was for my car. I kept trying to fill it up and only spending a few cents. I thought gas prices had gone down. It awesome.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 9, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The llama should have gone in for lazer hair removal first. Now matter how soft the under-belly hair, it’s just not sexy.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 9, 2008 1:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Silly Matt Cain- the Llama Always Wins!
Always knew I’d have a use for that image again.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on May 9, 2008 1:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I like the smug look on the male’s (llaman?) face and how the female (llamama?) looks like she’s bored and just grazing
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 9, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there's one thing Goofus knows how to spot...
It’s an unsatisfied woman.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 9, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
To steal a great line...
Mrs. Goofus: “I want you badly!”
Goofus: “Then that’s how you shall have me!”
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 9, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
he needs to get ripped
for walking the pitcher after having him down 0-2, small part of a bigger problem. he need he head out of he ass. he isnt atlee hammaker or don robinson, hes matt frikkin cain and at this point in his career, he should be pitching better and not making dumbo rookie junkball pitcher mistakes
my adoptive son is pat misch... because he spent time in fresno and he isnt zito...
by Headhunter Rollins on May 9, 2008 1:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he has to work on some things
To get from a really good pitcher to be an amazing pitcher.
That’s not really the issue here. Even the “amazing” pitchers start to get in trouble in late innings more often than not, and the smart managers know how to utilize their bullpen to maintain their “amazingness”
In retrospect, it is clear that Cain pitched 1 inning too many yesterday. The big problem is that 90% of McC knew that as it was happening. Why didn’t Bochy/Rag?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 9, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wasnt bochy
in the clubhouse recovering from his fall?
Someone get Damon Minor's agent on the phone stat!
by fanofvanlandingham on May 9, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point. If Cain lines one into the dugout and makes me fall on my head, I want him to lose the game too.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on May 9, 2008 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bochy looks like the Brain sans the actual brain
by Man-o-War on May 9, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
THIS IS IMPORTANT
who’s Pinky????
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 9, 2008 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does it matter?
NARF
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on May 9, 2008 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pinky is Sabean
The Brain: Pinky, are you pondering what I’m pondering?
Pinky: I think so, Brain, but then it’d be Snow White and the Seven Samurai…
by Man-o-War on May 9, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cain is a workhorse
Give the big fella the ball and watch him pitch.
Side bar: Why doesn’t Merkin Valdez pitch more often? Bochy has no problem throwing Taschner and Chulk out there nite after nite yet I seldom see Valdez pitching. The 7th is his inning I keep people saying and there was the 7th inning yesterday beckoning.
by wilriv21 on May 9, 2008 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
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