Axe Lansford Now. Your thoughts.

by Mayor of 311 on May 31, 2008 9:00 AM PDT Comment 57 comments

Brian Horwitz came up to bat last night, (1) making his ML debut, and (2) thus facing a pitcher he had never seen before, (3) probably even on video, (4) in a tie game, (5) when the Giants had been punchless for a few innings, (6) in a situation in which if the Giants score, game over and we win. So he swings at the first goddamn pitch. AAAGGGHHHHH. It takes minimal brain capacity NOT to swing. So he (I think) takes the next pitch, right down the middle. He then, naturally, swings BADLY at the 3rd pitch for a 3-pitch K.

And his was not the first 3-pitch K of the evening for the Giants.

So am I being either rash or harsh for thinking that Carney Lansford should be canned as our hitting coach? Mind you, I'm not saying he should be axed because Horwitz didn't get a hit, but just because Horwitz went up there with NO plan at all, even something as simple as the advice I would have given him: "Son, I don't care what the pitches are, do not swing at the first two pitches. Get a look at the pitches and the man throwing them, remember to breathe, and start having fun at the 3rd pitch."

Horwitz isn't the only of our young guys who seem to go up with no plan and hack at first-pitch slop in tough situations. It never works. I am not in love with Bowker, but I give him credit that he SEEMS to go up with a plan in mind. But the other young guys, not so much. And I'm not holding Lansford at all responsible for Aurilia, Vizquel, Molina, or any of the other vets who aren't hitting well, as I think those guys are well beyond coachability.

Your thoughts.

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yes, they should fire their hitting coach because they can’t hit. If Lansford was the hitting coach for the Red Sox they wouldn’t be able to score runs either. The problem is the bunch of bums that Lansford was given to work with, not the coach himself. Omar Vizquel was one of the worst hitters in the majors last years, and they gave him a new contract. They lost Pedro Feliz, and replace him with the closest thing to Feliz that they could find in Jose Castillo. Half the team is washed up veterans and the rest of them are kids who have had dubious success in the minors, and that’s not Lansford’s fault because he just got here. As for Horwitz’ first major league atbat, how could you possibly blame the hitting coach?? You don’t think the kid might have been a little anxious??

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on May 31, 2008 9:16 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

(I just noticed your tag line, b.t.w.-- very funny stuff. May you have better luck w/him than I did.)

Yes, of course Lansford (a) just arrived this year, and (b) was given the vet bums-misbegotten newbies swirlie that you describe. Obviously. I specifically and completely exempted him from blame for the vet bums. As to the new guys, whom I assume to be more coachable and more able to enact some changes, I think it is certainly arguable that Lansford is doing zilch for these guys. (You could well be right that they weren’t ever going to amount to much.)

As for Horwitz, yes, of course he was anxious. That’s when coaching is most important. That’s when really concrete advice (“don’t swing at the first 2”) is most important. I am sure you don’t really think that Horwitz’s anxiety would have prevented him from following that kind of concrete, doable advice… if only he had gotten it. Frankly, I would hope that he would have had enough sense to get a look at a couple pitches from a pitcher he’d never seen before—hell, in a league he’d never seen before. Anxiety doesn’t overwhelm ALL sense and experience.

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on May 31, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I get your point, but do you really think it’s good advice to tell some kid to take two pitches in his first big league atbat?? There’s a long list of players who have actually homered in their first atbat, and how does Lansford know that Horwitz is going to go up there like a nervous wreck?? What if the first two pitches are fastballs right down the middle?? By the way, how do any of us know what Lansford actually said to him, if anything?? I would think if he told him anything, he told him not to swing at any bad pitches, and pick out one you like. You can’t blame Lansford there for what the kid did.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on May 31, 2008 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Axe Lansford? What are you nuts?

Just today the Chron had an article saying how the Gigantes were 2nd in the league in doubles and 2nd in triples, and have had a the 4th best slugging percentage in the NL. If you’re looking for a scapegoat, look at our bullpen (with the exception of Yabu, a man among men).

Down in Front Meat!

by homerdrew415 on May 31, 2008 9:27 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Mmmm... cherries

The slugging is great, and I’ll give them their due for that. Doubles and triples are good, but are by-products of other stuff—namely putting the ball in play and getting on base. The article doesn’t mention OBP… (and I admit I’m too lazy and rushed to look it up right now!)

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on May 31, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

2nd fewest runs scored in the National League, our offense isn’t good, sorry

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on May 31, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

wait, fourth-best SLG? baseball-reference says they have the 11th best SLG at a pathetic .399. Or actually that’s a split stat for May, okay.

The offense still sucks horribly.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 31, 2008 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was hoping to cherry pick some absurd stats to make a joke when i came across this little nugget:

AVG | OBP | SLG
.288 | .346 | .461
.234 | .312 | .319

Line one is with no one on base and line two is with RISP. Hrrmm?

-- Born Yesterday

by thatdog on May 31, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That may have more to do with out lineup

than anything else. Typically the guys to get in scoring postion are going to be 1-5. The guys who are most often going to be batting with RISP is 6-9.

How often have we had Rowand and Molina on w/ Castillo Vizquel and Pitcher up.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 31, 2008 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly.

When you’ve got such a polar lineup, the good hitters get on base and the bad hitters fail to drive them in. You could get around that if the good hitters were driving themselves in, but the Giants just don’t have deep threats. Their offensive system demands a consistent hitting attack with few holes, their actual lineup features several batters with event horizons.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on May 31, 2008 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I Like Lansford

Without even looking at the numbers, I think the Giants have shown a better approach to hitting than I remember.

The Gmen rank in 9th in BA and 14th in OBA and 12th in Slug. For a team that was supposed to be the worst offense in 20 years, these numbers are not bad.

Baseball Players get hosed. And Rookies get hosed even worse.

by Change Up on May 31, 2008 9:44 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

As a player, Lansford was a hacker. He didn’t walk much, didn’t strike out much, didn’t work counts. I imagine that’s what he teaches.

But that’s not really the problem. The problem is that that’s why he was hired. The organization believes in being “aggressive,” and virtually every player that comes through the system has the same hopeless approach.

by Evan on May 31, 2008 10:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

i agree that it’s an organizational thing. and i think it’s a factor in their inability to produce any quality hitters.

why is it so widely accepted that pitchers need to throw strikes, but its so hard for some to see the value in hitters who take a lot of balls?

this organization learned nothing from all those years of watching pedro feliz hack at slop and barry bonds wait for his pitch. it’s sickening.

Bengie Molina: stretching doubles into singles since 1998.

by jasomack on May 31, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s hard to evaluate coaches like Lansford as an outsider, but it’s clear something’s been wrong with the Giants’ approach over the years.

The A’s tell their youngster to wait for their pitch, then crush it. The Giants, it seems, tell their hitters to swing aggressively to the opposite field, which produces a lot of empty batting averages in the minors.

by Dan from NM on May 31, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I could not agree more

Look at Noonan’s regression.

Also, I have heard noise that Lewis needs to reduce his strikeouts….I fear this will lead to many fewer walks

Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.

by irwin on Jun 2, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also schierholtz

Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.

by irwin on Jun 2, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree the situational hitting is bad

But across the board , our hitters are exceeding expectations by a longshot. Grant listed the vets who are hitting way over their head so far, and I’d include Bowker and Lewis with that group. I don’t really know why you say Molina is struggling, he’s killing it. Aurilia is also doing better if not great. Vizquel and Velez have struggled this year, but that’s about it.

I didn’t watch the game last night, so I don’t know the exact circumstances (were their runners on, had the pitcher walked a batter or two?), but I don’t think Horwitz swinging at the first pitch is a big deal. If anything, with Horwitz’ background as a high average/low walk guy, the simplest and best advice is to have him go up there and swing at a pitch he likes.

by hammystyle on May 31, 2008 10:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I have seen two young players

Develop a very patient eye at the plate. John Bowker and ESPECIALLY Fred Lewis.

Shit, even Castillo has improved dramatically.

The hack at first pitch type of crap has gone way down in the guys who are playing every day. I don’t think Lansford can be blamed.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 31, 2008 10:17 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

These guys weren’t expected to do anything and they are hitting decently well this season. To me, the lack of approach that our young players have when they get up to the big leagues is an indication that they aren’t being coached well in the minors. Maybe we should be looking at the hitting instructors down there for blame

by m34josh on May 31, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

exactly. I don’t think they’re great offensively, but they’ve been better than advertised. In past years, we’ve seen starting pitchers against the Giants consistently getting to the eighth and ninth innings with about 70-80 pitches, and we have rarely seen that this year, if at all. This firing the hitting coach thing is an old theme with Giants’ fans and all teams fans whenever their team doesn’t score enough runs. Who didn’t want to fire Dusty’s hitting coach, Felipe’s hitting coach and Lefevre last year?? It’s the same old story, only this time it’s almost impossible to justify. The guy has only been the coach for two months, and the team HAS shown improvement. Also, the argument that he was a hacker as a player so he preaches the same thing as a coach is also incorrect. Just because he didn’t do things the right way, doesn’t mean that he tells others to do things the wrong way as well. It’s sort of like your parents telling you not to drink and smoke when they drink and smoke themselves!!

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on May 31, 2008 10:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fred’s always been a pretty patient hitter, IIRC. His Minor League OBP is .377.

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on May 31, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow...

...I think it’s overboard to blame the hitting coach using as an example a player’s first ever at-bat. Considering Horwitz arrived just earlier today, how much time had he had to work with Lansford?

A hitter is expected to be eager in his first at-bat. Fire based on long-time, extended behaviors that don’t change.

It should also be noted that Horwitz is one of the system’s most professional hitters, with two batting titles under his belt, a good rate up the system, and is considered to have excellent plate discipline.

SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!

by BruteSentiment on May 31, 2008 10:34 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, too harsh.

No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball

by Skaldheim on May 31, 2008 11:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Youth movement!

If you play young guys, I think you have to expect that a lot of them will make these kinds of mistakes. It comes with the territory. It could be that Lansford is partly to blame… I don’t really have any evidence with which to make a judgement. If Horwitz continues to do go up there without a plan, then you can probably say he’s not being coached well. Until then, I don’t think it’s fair to say.

by neurofarm on May 31, 2008 11:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Too early to tell if he should be fired, IMO. I’d wait until the end of the season or sometime next year.

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on May 31, 2008 11:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Well, you’re just completely wrong regarding the Horwitz AB. He had a good pitch on the first pitch, put a good swing on it and fouled it off. The second pitch wasn’t bad, Horwitz fouls it off. If Horwitz follows the Mayor’s advice, he’s still 0-2 and gets that same nasty 0-2 pitch which he can’t even put wood on. He had a good approach. If it is hittable, take a rip. He made very good contact on the first swing, lining a foul into the seats. Horstiz had 3 shots at it, and on 2 he put wood on the ball. The mayor’s way he can’t start to rippin’ until he is 0-2. That is a hitting coach I would be lloking to get fired.

by allfrank on May 31, 2008 11:43 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Weird

The spelling of Horwitz is slowly transforming into Horsshitz over the course of your comment. It doesn’t get all the way there, but I bet if you’d written another paragraph…

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 31, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Howie couldn't be suggesting

Allfrank is giving us a horseshit comment, could he?

Cuz it sounds like Frank is studying the atbat in the Giants’ Video Room as we post.

by Moggeee on Jun 1, 2008 12:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh… I hadn’t even thought of that interpretation. Honestly, I just thought it sounded funny.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jun 1, 2008 1:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lansford's been pretty good actually

Lewis has been better than we expected, Ort’s been pretty good, and Bowker’s been pretty good. Horwitz had his first AB in the majors he had to have been kinda nervous. It’s not Lansford’s fault he struck out. I’ve actually been pretty happy with Lansford so far…

by boonitez on May 31, 2008 12:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The only way this dude shoudl be fired is if he is a complete disaster, like showing up for work wasted and having the hitters hit empty Schlitz cans at BP and instructing the young players by saddling up right behind them and taking the bat in his/their hands while tenderly whispering instructions in their ear. Who needs that?

yeah, well, the whole world stinks, francine -- so get used to it!

by satyricrash on May 31, 2008 12:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

be it as it may...

that the Giants brought another guy into to the organization who is wearing a World Series ring that he won AGAINST the Giants, what’s done is done. Lansford has done a good job. I dare anyone out there to get a bunch of 22-year olds to think about hitting instead about girls. Go ahead, try!!

by StickRat on May 31, 2008 12:57 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Cannot complain about BMoney either

by wilriv21 on May 31, 2008 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, that’s the undoing of many a major league coach.

maybe the giants don’t have any patience because they’re thinking about trying to hook up after the game.

Bengie Molina: stretching doubles into singles since 1998.

by jasomack on May 31, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Lansford is doing a great job

by fwoty oz on May 31, 2008 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

i dont think anyone will ever know how much difference a hitting coach actually makes on his team’s approach. what i do know, is that the company line was that lansford was hired to help the team with their “situational hitting,” which is not what the giants need to be focusing on. they need to focus on 1) patient hitting and 2) good hitting.

Bengie Molina: stretching doubles into singles since 1998.

by jasomack on May 31, 2008 2:14 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It's the guys we draft/develop

With few exceptions (Lewis and, well, Lewis) almost all of the hitters we draft and develop do not have good plate patience or discipline.

Go Durham, Roberts, Aurilia, Vizquel, Winn, Lowry! The better you do, the quicker we can trade you!

by NeifiChicken on May 31, 2008 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Axe Lansford would be an awesome name for the frontman of a metal band.

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on May 31, 2008 3:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Before I came in here, I thought this Diary was going to be about a metal band.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 31, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe

With all the hype about the youth movement, are we really giving our players enough time to develop, or are we jumping the gun a bit? I think by calling up some people (Denker, Bowker) we didn’t give them enough time to truly have enough ABs to be ready up here.

by giants9107 on May 31, 2008 4:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I also vote no axe

Not yet mentioned here is Bocock. Despite being not remotely ready to face big league pitching, he did draw a respectable number of walks (although that seemed to drop off somewhat as pitchers figured out they didn’t have to be as careful with him). He showed good patience at the place even if he didn’t show anything else.

Also looking better than expected: Steve Holm, despite making the leap straight from AA

The Giants’ team OBP is really dragged down by two guys: Bocock and Velez. One should never have been here in the first place, and the other has been sent down to work on it. Take their numbers out and the team OBP goes up about 10 points, which puts them right in the middle of the pack. You couldn’t really expect more than that from this team.

All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 31, 2008 9:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The amazing thing is that pitchers thought they had to be careful with Bocock to begin with. As long as you have a scouting report, there should be a limit to how scared of a guy never having faced him before is allowed to make you, and that limit should be “this guy would be bad in AA.”

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Jun 1, 2008 1:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

I think we don’t know enough about a hitting coach’s effect on a batter or what Lansford’s effect truly has been for us to make an informed judgment here.

by sharksrog on May 31, 2008 11:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sorry Mayor, but if I was going to give advice to a hitter about to have his first big-league at bat, I’d probably say something like, “Don’t try to over-think. He probably be trying to get ahead in the count on you, so look for a first-pitch fastball. Stay relaxed and if you see a pitch you like, hit it.”

If Carney had told him to take the first two pitches, I’d be surprised.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Jun 1, 2008 4:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

And I think the oppo pitcher would try to get him to swing at crap, rather than pipe one to get ahead in the count.

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 2, 2008 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

For the pitch in question, wasn’t it a fastball in the strike zone.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Jun 2, 2008 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But wait!

Horwitz got a hit in his first at bat today!

Promote Carney Landsford?

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on Jun 1, 2008 8:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

And his hit in the 10th was on the first pitch, against a pitcher he’d never seen before.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 1, 2008 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I DON’T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE ANYMORE

Everybody Loves Durham
comics | cartoons | Nattowear

by Natto on Jun 1, 2008 11:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Um, yeah, but...

... it was a medium roller that was JUST out of reach of the 2b. A butterfly fart from the west, and it would have been a double play ball just like mom used to make. (And, by mom, I mean Marvin Benard.) I was delighted and screaming in my seats, don’t get me wrong, but that was lucky.

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on Jun 1, 2008 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs