AA dilemma
I got to go see the Conn. Defenders play in New Britain last night, nice game, 6 - 4 victory as covered in the Minor Lines thread. Seems like almost no one on that team is over .250, but the offense looked great.
Anyway, got to reading about the team a bit, and came across this recent article from a local writer:
Defenders' Affiliation Has Been a Giant Pain
Sounds like no one is very happy with the situation. Only other opinion I found on the subject was a Defenders blogger that agreed. The attendance is the worst in the league.
Looking at other AA options, there are a bunch of teams that are coming up for renewal this year, but very few that might actually consider moving. Seems like SF/Norwich is about as poor a geographical situation as there is in AA ball......maybe Seattle would prefer it to West Tennessee, the cold might work out a bit better for them. Ideally they'd end up somewhere in the Texas League.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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And this......
was a pretty informative thread on the subject.
by Stoned Slacker on
May 28, 2008 9:46 PM PDT
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isnt this the 3rd mcc thread on joe perez' column
joe sounds more childish each time i read it…he seems to think that CT alone is responsible for giving Denker a shot at MLB….
by slojoe on
May 28, 2008 10:43 PM PDT
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Yes, it's our third rehash of Joe's fascinating column
But in the stoned slacker spirit, I’m just going to watch a Gilligan’s Island rerun as if it were the first time.
by Moggeee on
May 28, 2008 11:05 PM PDT
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Whoops.....
my mistake, though exclusively due to the mediocre search function, I did try to check for that.
by Stoned Slacker on
May 29, 2008 9:05 AM PDT
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My parents say I have a dilemma, which also involves AA, but I say that they don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about and just don’t understand me.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
May 28, 2008 10:46 PM PDT
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It’s alright. I understand, duct taping the dog to the ceiling and pissing in the flowers is an “expression of individuality” that a lot of people just don’t seem to grasp.
by toofruss on
May 29, 2008 8:06 AM PDT
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They don’t know about the flowers yet, thankfully, but the couch in their basement is almost certainly ruined.
Neglectful father of David Quinowski
by marcello on
May 29, 2008 1:10 PM PDT
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Because you’re Doug, and you’re outta here?
by mxmob33 on
May 28, 2008 11:31 PM PDT
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Hey man, I’m Doug, not Bob Dylan.
by Stoned Slacker on
May 29, 2008 9:06 AM PDT
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I haven't had a chance to comment on this on here yet, so I will...
And I say this coming from having just been in Norwich.
The cold is no exaggeration…and I say that as a Bay Area native. There was pushing and shoving in the Reading Dugout to get the valued bench space in front of the heater. The visitor’s dugout (third base side got the worst of it: wind would blow straight in, but also at times come from either side. It was like all the swirling wind of Candlestick, in one small area.
People downplay Dodd’s negative effects….which is fair. Some people can do well there. Power can be had down the lines, and ground balls can exploit a hard ground and infielders with hands as cold as those of the hands of hitters. And the cold can help or hurt pitchers just as much in the same ways.
But at the same time…it’s not a pleasant stadium. Sorry to Skip and Hondo and the guys out in CT who I haven’t gotten to meet. It’s not the dimensions, or the fence height. It’s not a bad stadium. Augusta is legitimately bigger, but not by much. For me, it’s location. To start, it’s on top of a hill, and on the edge of a pretty steep hillside. And the outfield is facing down towards the river and towards the ocean. Even though it’s from the south and east, the wind blows in off the ocean.
Also…it’s in the middle of a business park. It’s quite a ways away from Norwich, which is not a big town to start with (36,600). And while New London County is fairly populous (about 260,000), the surrounding counties, the neighboring counties make up just about about one sixth of Connecticut’s total population, and that’s spread out over about half of the state. Even though it’s along a couple of pretty big highways and is central, there isn’t a lot of support, it seems, and it just feels far away from the rest of the area, without many restaurants and places to hang.
I know, I know, there’s the fact that ‘Everyone loves a winner,’ and the Giants aren’t that…but it’s a downward spiral. And the manager Bien Figueroa made some pretty spiteful comments about it, which I’m sure you guys have read. “(Bowie) was my old team and when you play in front of 10,000 fans, that’s kind of enjoyable," he said. "When you’re here and there’s not a lot of fans- it’s hard. It gets boring sometimes, I don’t like to say that, but that’s what they call home field advantage." Connecticut is the lowest attended team in the league, when I got there, they averaged 1,712 a game. The next team (Harrisburg) averaged 1,827. But after that, the next lowest is 2,413 per game, which is a pretty huge jump. That’s significant, and can’t just be attributed to losing teams.
I also think that Perez’s article short-shifts the Giants. The Giants’ farm system is one of the winningest in baseball the last few years. The team directly below Connecticut has been one of the best teams in the California League, with two championships in three years. And it’s not like the Defenders haven’t had the benefits that have won the Giants other championships, like slow player pushes, older players and minor league free agents.
The team is hardly a bunch of angels, either. Calling the owner ‘absentee’ is a compliment. The fans (both those present on here and those I met there) seemed dissatisfied with the ownership as much of the Giants. And this is a team that frickin’ didn’t play ‘Take Me Out to the Ballgame’ last week….and it wasn’t the first time apparently. And when the guy in charge was told about it and was complained to…he shrugged.
And the numbers are hard to lie about. I wrote about this last week, and these were the first major splits I came across with their top players:
Eddy Martinez-Esteve at Home: .216/.333/.216, 11 for 51, no extra-base hits.
Eddy Martinez-Esteve Away: .352/.410/.507, 25 for 71, 5 2B, 2 HR
Carlos Sosa at Home: .167/.224/.278, 9 for 54, 3 2B, 1 HR
Carlos Sosa Away: .338/.432/634, 24 for 71, 7 2B, 1 3B, 4 HR
Travis Ishikawa at Home: .167/.261/.250, 10 for 60, 2 2B, 1 HR
Travis Ishikawa Away: .321/.424/.452, 27 for 84, 5 2B, 2 HR
David Maroul at Home: .178/.193/.286, 10 for 56, 6 2B
David Maroul Away: .280/.289/.560, 21 for 75, 6 2B, 5 HR
Ultimately, there’s one thing that needs to be said. When I was speaking with the very pleasant PA Announcer, I mentioned that it might be my last time out there. He smiled and nodded, and said “Yea, I understand. I don’t expect the team to be here after next year either.” It had never even occurred to him about the affiliation agreement. When the Defenders agreement with Dodd is up after 2009, it may be that the Defenders will be as out of town as the Giants.
To that end…who knows. Maybe the Giants will stick with the Defenders, with possibly a deal with the owner to sell out, or a new owner that may lead to the team leaving town. (Maybe a two team defection to the Texas League?)
But one thing it seems no one disagrees with is that the Giants may be out of Norwich soon. Whether or not that means also with in tandem with the Defenders is another big question.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on
May 29, 2008 1:12 AM PDT
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Great job, Kevin!!
Thanks so much for the on-location reportage, which is so valuable to those of us nowhere near the source of any of these topics we discuss frequently. This post made this 3rd fanpost about Perez’s article worthwhile. As Martin has pointed out before, the home/road splits are certainly a strong argument against Dodd. I feel badly for the true baseball fans in the area – it’s like they’re stuck with Candlestick, as you said.
The thought that owner Lou DiBella (a boxing promoter) might move the team is an interesting one. And your suggestion of perhaps 2 EL teams moving to Texas League territory is VERY intriguing – was that just a random guess on your part, or have you heard something somewhere?
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
May 29, 2008 6:12 AM PDT
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Moving Woes...
The idea that two teams might go to the TL is mostly my speculation (not entirely, but I’d hardly call what I heard reliable), but it makes sense. A lot of Eastern League teams have issues with weather. The AA Eastern League has 12 teams, the AA Southern League has 10, and the Texas League (the Westernmost of the leagues) has just 8.
The problem is that the other team with attendance issues (The Harrisburg Senators) was bullied into a 29-year lease when the new owners picked up the team. Outside of that, the most likely team to move would be the Erie SeaWolves, who have had long attendance issues (albeit helped with a recent renovation). The problem is that the SeaWolves are owned by Mandalay, who are part owners of the Texas League’s Frisco RoughRiders (along with the Rangers-owned Tom Hicks Group). They’d probably have to sell their interest in Frisco to move the SeaWolves. But unlike several other Eastern League teams, Mandalay has no local interest to keep the team. Erie is one of 8 affiliated minor league teams in Pennsylvania, in addition to 3 independent minor league teams, and of course the 2 major league teams. So it’s pretty easy to point out heavy competition.
However, it seems beyond likely that even if a switch of leagues won’t happen, the Defenders will be out of Connecticut as soon as possible.
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by BruteSentiment on
May 30, 2008 12:16 AM PDT
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Thanks
I agree that having 2 EL teams move to the TL makes a lot of sense (assuming there are appropriate cities ready, willing, and able to support two new franchises). And yes, I’d think Harrisburg would be the logical partner to leave….too bad about the lease situation there.
And you’ve just about convinced me to subscribe to your newsletter – I do find your ideas intriguing!
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
May 30, 2008 6:18 AM PDT
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Awesome...Thank you!
Please let me know if we live up to your expectations if you do join….and if we don’t, let me know how we can. :)
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on
May 30, 2008 11:53 AM PDT
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Great writeup. I still don’t believe the splits hurt the Giants in any real developmental way; but if Dodd is a rotten place to watch a game and the fans don’t show up, then there’s nothing more to be said. Time to move.
by Evan on
May 29, 2008 9:55 AM PDT
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Kevin...
when’s the TI/Romo interviews being posted?
http://gregsconnecticutdefenders.blogspot.com
by greg8370 on
May 29, 2008 7:29 AM PDT
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One within 24 hours....
...the other on Sunday.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on
May 30, 2008 12:17 AM PDT
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do some research
do you know how hard it is to hit in AA????? HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO DODD?? do some research next time you talk about a team that youve never seen play at home. LISTEN, i live in CT i’ve been there countless times, its not cold, i was there on sunday, the game went fine
dont be ignorant
Keep the Watson
by czechwonder on
May 29, 2008 8:31 AM PDT
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And who the hell are you to come in here all high and mighty? calm down.
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
by Andy from DC on
May 29, 2008 8:53 AM PDT
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why he's the "czechwonder", thats who....
and the rest of us is just ignant
by slojoe on
May 29, 2008 7:30 PM PDT
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Who are you responding to, exactly?
The original poster didn’t say anything bad about Dodd, and BruteSentiment, who did criticize Dodd, said clearly that he had just been there.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on
May 29, 2008 12:11 PM PDT
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But have YOU ever been to Dodd?? Certainly haven’t played centerfield there, that’s for sure!!!!
by Natto on
May 29, 2008 1:01 PM PDT
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Didn’t I ever tell you about my college world series appearance?
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on
May 29, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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Never mind those guys. What I want to know is: How hard is it to hit in AA?
by Evan on
May 29, 2008 12:46 PM PDT
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See, like a chess grandmaster, the advanced McCC poster is always planning his “That’s what she said!” jokes two or three moves ahead.
by Evan on
May 29, 2008 1:20 PM PDT
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Since we're rehashing this again
A thought popped up: why did the Giants change from Shrevesport to Norwich anyway? That was our AA affiliate for a long-time.
Adoptive parental unit of Kevin "Most Spectacular Pitcher" Pucetas.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley
"I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on
May 29, 2008 9:46 AM PDT
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Tom Hicks group bought the Shreveport franchise and then moved it (Frisco?) so it would be closer to the big club in Arlington (so players would be a quick trip away just like Fresno is for us).
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on
May 29, 2008 9:52 AM PDT
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It still annoys me that there’s a team out there called “Frisco.”
by Evan on
May 29, 2008 12:48 PM PDT
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AA Dilemma
Brute,
My big area of disagreement is with the Giants recent minor league success. These successful seasons have materialized in the lower minors and rookie leagues. When the players hit Norwich or Fresno, team records head South. The AA team hasn’t smelled the play offs since the Giants have been here, and although I don’t follow Fresno carefully, I don’t think they’ve been in the upper echelons either. I really believe that a lot of these guys who have had success at San Jose and the other lower levels just aren’t that good. Who has come out of the farm system who is going to be a stud with the Giants for 5 to 10 years? Answer; no one. Just look at the players who have come out of New Britain and Portland in the EL and are now big contributors with the Twins and Red Sox. The Giants haven’t “held a candle” to either Minnesota or Boston.
Yes, it’s cold at Dodd in April, but it sure as Hell warms up from the middle of May on and
the winds are much less of a factor. The stadium is a factor, but it’s not the whole problem..
by thehondohurricane on
May 29, 2008 11:10 AM PDT
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Fresno has been good...
...not great, but they also have played in the same division as historically the strongest teams in the PCL, as Tacoma, Sacramento and Tucson have all won championships in recent years. Fresno hasn’t been near those levels, but have been at or above .500 and been in playoff contention late into the season the past couple of years.
The thing is that winning and prospects are usually not the same thing. The team in Augusta is a big example: that is by far the most prospect-laden team the Giants have had in a while. Many prospect-watchers would agree that it’s a legitimate team for any system.
And yet, they have lacked in wins. They are coming on a bit stronger of late, but they are still a team that flirts with .500.
The teams the Giants have had in the low minors win because pitching usually wins in the lower levels. And yes, the hitting has not been as well-rounded, and not the kind that would survive the big jump from A to AA. But I honestly believe one big (and ignored) reason the Defenders haven’t won…is because the Giants have not stocked it as much with older players or minor league free agent vets as they do the others to replace poor-performing prospects. Since Mike Cervenak, they have posted maybe one such hitter. This year, with Sosa and Rosario, they have done better, but not as much. I suppose Ishikawa and Martinez-Esteve count as well, maybe.
That kind of ploy won’t make prospect watchers happy. But as Joe said, fans love winners. And now more than ever, its the Defenders fans rather than Giants fans, who are the relevant group of fans.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on
May 30, 2008 12:36 AM PDT
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minor league free agents..
in ‘06 they signed Quincy Foster out of the indy leagues for a half season and in ‘07 brought in Randy Ruiz for a half season as well bringing back Tyler Von Schnell from SJ.
http://gregsconnecticutdefenders.blogspot.com
by greg8370 on
May 30, 2008 5:52 AM PDT
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Unfortunately...
I consider signing mid-season minor league free agents as afterthoughts, and certainly they are not the pick of the minor league free agent litter. That’s different than going out and picking up a solid independent league’s leading hitter and one of their top relievers to fill in.
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by BruteSentiment on
May 30, 2008 11:45 AM PDT
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sorry guys
sorry about my message, were all giants fans here, i guess i feel drawn to it because it is my nearest tie to the team,
anyways i think we need to say that minor leagues arent for team records or attendance, they are for development, besides the giants dont get gate receipts from the defenders so they arent losing money
also, no doubt the front office understands how hard it is to hit there so its almost like opposite inflation, an example would be someone like todd helton who plays in a homerun hitters park, same thing for a AA player in Dodd the front office understands how difficult it is to hit there
Keep the Watson
by czechwonder on
May 29, 2008 4:26 PM PDT
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Agreed, I think
If what you are saying is that the stats/splits don’t matter as long as management knows how to interpret them, that’s what I was trying to say in the previous threads. Despite my moniker, I’ve only see them play on road trips to Trenton. I won’t shed a tear if they leave Dodd, but I don’t think Dodd is a much of a burden on Giants’ player development as the critics here have been saying. And i do think the team should try to keep a base in some Eastern League city.
by NearestNorwich on
May 29, 2008 7:13 PM PDT
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Stats splits
Although I agree that we all hope the Giants organization is smart enough to factor in the park conditions in Norwich when evaluating the talent (or lack thereof) there, my chief concern is not so much about our evaluators (although perhaps it should be!).
I’m concerned with the players themselves. Although this plays into Joe Perez’s “they’re crybabies” rant, I worry about how the sudden change in conditions affects the thinking process of the young men we send there – both hitters who become frustrated and pitchers who become lazy. Sure, some of them will have the perspective and mental toughness to endure and possibly thrive, but some will have a big negative experience at a critical juncture of their development.
Hypothetically, if Sergio Romo starts coasting on his natural ability to throw the curveball and fails to work on his other pitches – because he can get away with it – then that’s a problem. Yes, he should know better, but he’s a young guy and the coaches can’t get in his head all the time. Or, if Travis Ishikawa takes it upon himself to change his swing to be more cautious in his approach, giving up power in an effort to avoid an embarrassing .235 average, then that’s a problem also. That’s the kind of thing I worry about. SHOULD it be a problem? In an ideal world, no. In reality, yes, quite possibly.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
May 30, 2008 6:29 AM PDT
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Fresno has been good....
One last thought I forgot to mention in my previous post is the Giants AA teams have historically led the league, or been close to it in most strike outs. This year they are again near the top. And that ain’t Dodd’s fault.
by thehondohurricane on
May 30, 2008 4:59 AM PDT
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The climate complaints about Dodd are unfair too. We’ve had this discussion before, but should all teams move out of the northeast because it’s cold before June?? The majority of the season it’s going to be a helluva lot warmer in Connecticut than it’s going to be in San Francisco!!
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on
May 30, 2008 5:32 AM PDT
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Touche
I remember once back in the 90s, the major league office decided that it didn’t want any more of those snow-outs in early April in the northeast and great lakes states, so they stacked the schedule to make teams play as far west and south as possible for most of April. The end result was a long homestand for the Giants to start the season—and that was when they still played at the Stick. Good God was that a cold homestand and everybody was complaining about it. I think the Cubs came in on that stand and players were saying they couldn’t wait to get back to Chicago to warm up.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on
May 30, 2008 5:44 AM PDT
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It’s less about climate and more about weather…and San Francisco fans know the difference better than anyone. Look at the difference in between two parks in the same climate, Candlestick and AT&T.
If you want to look further, look into where Ewing Field (where the Seals played briefly, near the current USF campus) was which, a lot like Dodd, on the side of a hill facing towards cold ocean currents. That stadium was abandoned after half a season due to weather.
If Dodd was more sheltered down in one of the valleys along the Yantic or other rivers, it would not be as susceptible to the winds that cause the chill, and affect the game play.
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by BruteSentiment on
May 30, 2008 11:50 AM PDT
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Neutral is fine
Team doesn’t need to be in Dodd Stadium also do not want the team in an Albuquerque or Colorado Springs inflated numbers stadium.
by wilriv21 on
May 30, 2008 10:35 AM PDT
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True
I can’t wait until the team gets a AA franchise in the Texas League and everyone talks about how awful it is for our pitchers.
That said, Dodd really seems to be awful. A look at the splits tells you a lot.
My girlfriend’s brother is in the Navy and was at Groton when Norwich switched affiliations from the Yankees to the Giants. He said that the locals were disappointed: going from the Yankees to the Giants? They were likely to be disappointed regardless, unless the team was just lights-out awesome.
The Giants SHOULD pay more attention to SJ and Fresno – especially Fresno – to keep fans in their geographic and broadcast area happy. I am sure they are fine people, but who really cares if the fans in New London/Norwich/Groton are happy? The fans in that area just aren’t going to become Giants fans, so who cares?
That team exists, as far as the Giants are concerned, as simply a development level for our prospects. It has not served the team well in that capacity, so it’s time to go.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on
May 30, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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Yes, it is time to go
http://gregsconnecticutdefenders.blogspot.com
by greg8370 on
May 30, 2008 1:57 PM PDT
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