A Shot at 4 All-Stars?
by hairball on May 28, 2008 9:11 AM PDT
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Tim Lincecum: 7-1, 2.33 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 76K/28BB in 69.2 IP, tied for ML lead in strikeouts, with every start being a QS so far
Aaron Rowand: a popular guy, hitting .331/.398/.538, with only 2 errors so far
Bengie Molina: .329/.357/.524, absurdly living up to the #4 hitter role, with zero errors behind the dish and a decent 7 runners caught stealing
Brian Wilson: Tied for NL lead with 15 saves in 17 chances (88%) on a team with only 21 wins, 24K/12BB in 21.1 IP
Kinda reminds me of when I went to Cal Berkeley, and we had plenty of A-list talent playing on losing teams. Oh well. Let's try to make sure these guys get picked.
p.s. for my wife, who's a suffering Padres fan, I recommend Adrian Gonzalez for 1B- the guy is RAKING!
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I think 3 will make it
I see Timmeh in there, with Molina as a reserve at the very least, and one of Wilson/Rowand, depending on which of them heats up or cools down.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I think Timmy and Bengie will make it. Rowand might if he keeps it up. I don’t think Wilson has a chance. He has a 5.06 ERA and a 1.61 WHIP and it’s not a Mike Williams type situation where he’s the only real option from the Giants, since I think Tim is pretty much a lock. Of course maybe he gets really hot now, but I don’t think his ERA/WHIP will be impressive enough to make the team by July.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
I think Tim at this point is a lock.
How many catchers are on the team? Two? If so, I think McCann is just about a lock for one, the other one is a competition between Soto and Molina. Wilson? he really needs to reduce his ERA into the mid 3, to be considered. Aaron Rowand? I don’t think so, there are so many outfielders, I don’t think he has a chance.
Jesse English: He is BAAAAAACCCCCKKKK!
Lincecum and Molina, the team usually carries 3 catchers if I’m not mistaken.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Freezing Giants Blog
I voted 2 for
Timmah and Brian “soul patch” Wilson.
Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.
agreed
I don’t think Molina’s widely appreciated or well-known enough to get even a backup nod.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on May 28, 2008 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Daily mentions on Baseball Tonight
via “Name That Molina” segment
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
Last year, Bengie had the numbers to make it at least as a backup, but LaRussa said he’d choose Yadier over Bengie. *shake fist *
I'm hoping for two
No way in hell is Wilson an all-star (this year). Saves are shiny, but not that shiny. But barring some kind of severe implosion, Timmy will go. I think Molina deserves a backup catcher spot. Rowand… he’s playing well, but there are a lot of good outfielders to choose from, so I don’t think he’ll go.
You just explained why Wilson will go (if he keeps up the saves)
Saves are shiny. To those of us who know better, they aren’t as important. To most people who vote, though, a look at the saves leader is enough to get a vote.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on May 28, 2008 10:24 AM PDT up reply actions
how many relievers do they take?
I would bet some better known guys such as Wagner or Lidge make the team ahead of Wilson. Nobody knows about Wilson except us.
Still defending Rich Aurilia, and the Niners' classic unis
I’ve seen them take as many as four closers and just use them as the RP in the game.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 28, 2008 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Exactly
And one would imagine that if they took 4 closers from the NL, and Wilson was still at the top of the pack in saves, he would have to be among them.
Managers tend to base “elite closer” on save %, much more than ERA and WHIP, both of which are not necessarily good indicators for closers, if what you care about is saves (better indicators for pitching in general, at least WHIP). Closers have to have unhittable stuff. So they often have strikeouts and walks, without many hits. Wilson gives up too many hits- that’s the biggest mark against him that I’m aware of.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Are you talking about fans or managers?
Many fans overrate saves, I’m sure, but they don’t get to vote for pitchers. As far as managers, I’m pretty sure even the least stat-savvy of them can look beyond saves at least as far as ERA.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on May 28, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Frankly, for a closer
IMO the only important # is sv . Everything else is just peripherial. Unlike starters w/ wins, the closer has 100 complete control over his save % (Barring errors or otherwise shitty defense).
If the guy walks a lot of people and scatters more than a few hits, but still is closing at higher than 85% rate – who cares, he is getting the job done.
Some could just say that the guy knows how to pitch in the situation. Giving up a bases empty hit w/ 2 outs in the 9th and a 3 run lead isn’t really a big deal, for instance.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 28, 2008 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah but if he’s walking a lot of people and scatters more than a few hits, you have to start worrying about when it’s going to catch up to him and how much longer he’s going to be able to convert saves at a good rate.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
Well
With Wilson, he’s given up a lot of hits. His walks could be better, but they’re not out of control. The important thing with him is that he always seems to have the strikeout stuff. I trust him as a closer right now. He’s scared me a few times, but he seems to really understand the role, and it is reflected in his save %. Do I care about his ERA and WHIP? Not nearly as much as I would with a generic reliever, let alone a starter.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
His walks could be better, but they’re not out of control.
He lowered his BB% some with his walkless outing last night, but his BB% of 12.12% is very close to “out of control”. That’s a bad BB% rate. He balances it out some with is ability to strikeout hitters, but he’s going to need to improve his walk rate if he wants to improve as a pitcher.
Compared to what- starters?
See my other comments on this.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I don’t get how you think that what makes you a good starting pitcher is somehow different than what makes you a good closer.
They. Are. The. Same. Things.
Both need to do the same things to succeed.
Remove yourself from the mentality of “Your close must be scary, have a goatee, tats, and throw 95+” and you’ll see that the things that make pitchers good are universal.
John Smoltz would agree with you
But he always had what people would describe as “closer stuff”
I think you’re reading a lot into what I’m saying
Do you think that a team should therefore take its best non-starting pitcher, statistically, and, regardless of everything else, make them the closer?
Do you believe that the “closer” is even a worthwhile position?
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I think
“closer stuff” is a myth.
To your first question, yes, but they shouldn’t be Bochy-esque in using them ONLY in CLOSING situations. (IE, bring your “closer” in in the 8th if you have a 1R lead facing the 3-4-5 hitters)
To your 2nd question, “closer” isn’t a position. It’s the name teams give their best relief pitchers.
If I might jump into the conversation here
I usually don’t get into arguments over the closer position. That’s because I tend to be sort of in the middle so I end up arguing with both sides.
But I just wanted to point out that closer is in fact a position. Regardless of whether you think it should be or not, the best relief pitcher (this isn’t always true, by the way) is given the position of closer. Closer is a position because that pitcher has a specific role. His job is to close out games when his team has a lead of 3 runs or less. You can argue with the logistics of such a role but you can not argue that the role does not exist.
Only 919 games until the end of Zito's contract
If you consider starting pitcher to be a position...
then you should consider closer to be one.
Only 918 games until the end of Zito's contract
Role, not position
Starting pitcher is a subset of the pitcher position. It is a role, not a position. Same with relief pitcher, set up man, long reliever, middle man or closer.
Reliever is to pitcher as backup catcher is to catcher.
IMO, you're really wrong.
IMO the only important # is sv .
Saves are a purely arbitrary statistic that don’t measure at all how good a pitcher is.
You’re going to have much more success at looking at things like: K%, BB%, GB%, FB%, HR/F%, LOB%, LD% as underlying stats for ANY pitcher to determine what he’s doing right and what he’s doing wrong.
the operative word in your post was 'pitcher'
Remember, whether you as a stat-appreciator like it or not, managers tend to regard closers as something different than a typical “pitcher”, thus assigning importance to a certain mentality, and of course the ability to get saves.
If Brian Wilson were trying to be a good “pitcher”, he would be focusing on different things than if he is trying to be an “elite closer”.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Sorry
But this idea
If Brian Wilson were trying to be a good "pitcher", he would be focusing on different things than if he is trying to be an "elite closer".
Is totally bunk.
What makes you a good “pitcher” is the same thing that makes you a good “closer”
(Also, a closer is a pitcher, they are the same)
Things such as I listed above. See my list.
Also, humor me.
What does a good “closer” do as compared to a good “pitcher”?
I’d really like to hear your opinion on this.
I don't want to argue over the obvious
I guess you could liken what I’m saying to “situational hitting” vs. “hitting” in general.
A closer is a “situational pitcher”, and there are different dynamics in play. For example, a great starting pitcher doesn’t necessarily equal a great closer.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Brian WIlson...
has been pretty close to awful this season. Only an arbitrary and pretty much meaningless stat (as xanthan mentioned) masks his true performance.
Flossing a dead horse
"close to awful"?
Only someone who is more a fan of stats that the game would say that. Nevermind the excellent K numbers. Unlike Benitez, he’s doing his job.
Personally, I wish everyone on the Giants could play so awfully, if it meant they were all doing their jobs equally well.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I hope you're sitting down...
Only someone who is more a fan of stats that the game would say that.
But I’m a fan of BOTH!
OMG!
I don’t like the notion that you can’t both enjoy baseball by using analytical methods - such as using statistics - and just plain old loving the game. It’s not an either or, this isn’t a tug of war.
“OK, all you computer nerd basement dwellers get on one end of the rope and we’ll get on the other, 1,2, 3….”
Sorry, doesn’t work like that.
For the record
I was replying to kenshin, and I resent the fact that someone complained about my post to moderators.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Why?
He has a good strikeout rate, and he’s getting the job done (only 2 blown saves). The ERA is bad, but it’s blown up by a few bad outings. Sure, his innings haven’t been clean, and his WHIP must be very high. But I think it’s hard to say he’s been close to awful.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
re: why
1. Saves have extremely limited value in evaluating past performance and less in predicting future performance.
2. stranding runners is not a repeatable skill.
3. you cannot have a ridiculously high BB rate in the majors and survive
4. Saves are a crappy stat (so true, it deserves to be said twice)>
Flossing a dead horse
Saves are the only factor with closers
Seriously, that’s their job.
It may be your opinion that saves are a crappy stat, but seeing as there is an important baseball role built around them and only them, that’s like saying homeruns are a crappy stat. I mean, you’re arguing with the sport here, not me.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I’ll admit that saves have little to no predictive value. However, I still think that the fact that he has only blown a save twice shows that he has done a good job so far.
As for his all-star chances (I know this may not be your point, but I’m just getting this out there) if you don’t want to use saves or blown saves, what do you think should be used to pick relievers? Does that mean you would choose a middle reliever for the team just as soon as a closer with similar stats? The closer is being put in more important situations. Again, I don’t know if what you’re saying has anything to do with all stars, but I’m just wondering.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
thank you!
I should have said earlier that I agree that saves are NOT an indicator of a good pitcher. However, they ARE an indicator of a closer who is doing his job, and that is the kind of person who is often picked for the ASG, although I agree that Wilson is a longshot.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I don't entirely agree with your second point.
Some pitchers lose more than others while pitching from the stretch. Also, as Velez repeatedly demonstrated, a good pick-off move (or just being difficult to run against) can prevent some runners scoring over a season.
I’m not sure how big of an impact these things have, but it’s not nothing. I’m not sure how it applies well to Wilson, either.
ERA is not a good measure of closers
Nor relievers in general.
Are you telling me that you’d rather have a closer with a low ERA and a rotten save % than one with a high ERA and a shiny save %? One of these situations indicates a poor closer, and one indicates a guy who got rocked on 1 or 2 outings, but is generally dependable.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
No, I'm not saying that...
...but I am saying that ERA is one of the “shallow end” stats that non-statgeeks, including most MLB managers, look at. Pitchers with ERAs over 5.00 just don’t get picked to the All-Star team. Can you think of counterexamples?
Derrick Turnbow ended up with an ERA over 6 in 2006, but at the time he was picked for the team it was 4.04.
Here’s one I found: Mike Williams made the ASG in 2003 with an ERA over 6.00. However, he was the token selection from a lousy Pirates team, and he had been selected the year before when his ERA was shiny. (See Ozzie Smith Principle elsewhere in this thread.) That doesn’t apply to Wilson since we have Lincecum as an obvious candidate for the mandatory team representative.
Other than that, I see a mostly guys with ERAs in the 2s and 3s…
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on May 28, 2008 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree with this.
ERA is a poor measure of “closing ability”, but one that people will look at nonetheless: ERA > 5 means he’s not an All-star (though he does have some time to bring it down). The main reason I think Wilson shouldn’t go is the high hit and walk rate. I think his excellent save % is a bit a bit of a fluke at this point, in the future either his WHIP or save% will go down. I’m hoping for the former.
I agree with pretty much everything you said
Wilson is definitely a dark horse candidate.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Yes.
if his other peripheral stats are better too, because that is an indicator that over time, he will be more successful than the pitcher with the shiny # of saves.
It’s a lot like looking at a hitter’s Avg. without taking into account their BABIP. If a hitter has like a .400 BABIP, he’s probably going to fall off in a pretty big way. Similarly, if a pitcher or “closer” has a really high WHIP and BB%, but a good save %, he’s probably going to fall off in a pretty big way.
Well I guess Robb Nen was a terrible closer then.
1999 – 37 worthless saves, 3.98 ERA, 1.465 WHIP (Which is BAD)
All-Star.
Brian Wilson WHIP is 1.641. Also BAD, but probably a little inflated from one or two specific outings.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 29, 2008 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Cherry-pick much?
“Well I guess Robb Nen was a terrible closer then.”
CAREER STATS:
Robb Nen: 2.98 ERA, 1.21 WHIP
Brian Wilson: 4.32 ERA, 1.48 WHIP
“1999 – 37 worthless saves, 3.98 ERA, 1.465 WHIP (Which is BAD)
All-Star.”
First of all, Nen was already an established closer at that point (148 career saves, 3 straight seasons of 35+ saves), had won a World Series, and was coming off a season where he saved 40 games, had a 1.52 ERA and a 0.94 WHIP.
By contrast, Wilson had only 7 career saves coming into this year, and has never had a full major league season. Personally, I think Wilson has a chance to be every bit as good as Nen, but he’s not nearly as established as a closer, or well-known throughout the league as Nen was by 1999.
Secondly, the year-end stats for Nen are irrelevant. All-Stars are chosen at mid-season, and both Nen’s ERA and WHIP skyrocketed in the 2nd half of 1999 when he was pitching through an arm injury which would necessitate surgery after the season. When he was actually elected to the All-Star team that year, his ERA was at 3.59 and his WHIP was 1.31 (neither great, but both easily better than Wilson’s current numbers).
“Brian Wilson WHIP is 1.641. Also BAD, but probably a little inflated from one or two specific outings.”
I assume since you’re pointing out Wilson’s numbers are inflated by a couple of bad outings, you must’ve gone back and seen the same was not true of Nen, right? No, I guess not, because a quick look at Nen’s gamelog from that year shows that if you remove his worst 2 outings from the first half - namely, this one and this one - he would’ve had a 2.19 ERA and a 1.12 WHIP at the All-Star break.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 29, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
My point is just that
People like to pigeon hole players based on a few statistics and then make dogmatic statements.
Saying a Closer with a 15/17 sv/op ratio has been aweful is kind of rediculous, completely independant of what his peripherial stats may be.
Also, it always bothers me when people are so certain of future performance based on past statistics. I’m sure all of the sabermetric’s guys had the Colorado Rockies as a 100% lock to make the WS last year, or the Arizona Diamondbacks with their negative run differential making it to the NLCS.
If we can predict how effective Brian Wilson will be over the course of the season based on a few peripherial statistics – then why even play the game? Just put those #’s into the record books and we can save everyone a lot of effort. Satitstics only works on large samples, and Brian Wilson is not a large sample. The best indicator of Brian Wilson’s performance is Brian Wilson, not a pile of data from other situations.
The chances of any given individual surpassing the statistical mean is 50%. That’s pretty damn good…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 29, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, it always bothers me when people are so certain of future performance based on past statistics. I’m sure all of the sabermetric’s guys had the Colorado Rockies as a 100% lock to make the WS last year, or the Arizona Diamondbacks with their negative run differential making it to the NLCS.
Who made any such claim? All I’ve heard is that the save stats is pointless (it really is) and that Wilson has a problem with walks (he always has).
hi2u gambler's fallacy
No, the chances of any individual surpassing the statistical mean is absolutely NOT 50%.
Certain stats do have predictive value, over a large enough sample size (which Wilson doesn’t have yet, as you point out). If a pitcher’s WHIP has been falling by about .05 every season over say 5 seasons, there’s a much better than 50% chance he’ll surpass his statistical mean WHIP (and ERA, for that matter).
However, stats like saves and wins offer no predictive value because there are too many factors going into them out of the pitcher’s control. That’s why you look at the other peripheral stats.
also
stats can’t predict with 100% accuracy. They’re very good at looking at trends, and giving you an idea if a good (or bad) season is likely to continue, but they can’t predict things like injuries, and they’re notoriously bad at predicting the outcomes of singular events (in that they can’t even come close to reaching 100% certainty). There are also anomalies, like the Diamondbacks last year, however if you look at the last 100 teams to have those RS/RA numbers, most of their records would approximate the sabermetrician’s predictions.
It’s very similar to political polling, however, in that if candidate A has a 20 point lead over candidate B in the polls, you would be pretty foolish to put money on candidate B
Not 50%
I was going to comment that the chances of exceeding the mean aren’t 50% because a few will equal the mean, reducing that 50% by a bit.
Statistical analysis DOES have predictive value if done properly. No one has all the answers, but some have at least a few of them.
If you don’t think statistical analysis has predictive value, challenge me to a fairly broad sample of predictive challenges—me against you. Assuming I use stats as part of my prediction and you don’t, I suspect I will fare better than you.
If our positions were reversed, I would bet on you.
Rowand has one big advantage...
...namely that he’s been before. Once an all-star, always an all-star. (In some circles this is known as the Ozzie Smith Principle.)
I say Rowand and Timmy get picked.
All-Father Watch: 1.07 ERA, 4 saves, 0.95 WHIP, 24 Ks in 25 1/3 IP
Just for the record...
Greg Smith doesn’t have great stuff. He’s basically Noah Lowry with better command. Supposedly he hit 93 last night, but I think the TV radar gun was juiced… he’s normally 86-88 with his fastball.
You may be thinking of Dana Eveland (also a candidate for the A’s rep) who typically works 90-92 and touches 95, which is very strong for a lefthander.
My personal guess is Justin Duchscherer… again on the Ozzie Smith principle… as for the Giants, I think Molina will have a hard time getting selected, and people aren’t going to ignore a 5 ERA, so I’d figure Rowand and Lincecum for the G-men.
Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.
Dang
You’re right- it is Eveland who has the great stuff. Duchscherer may actually be the real deal- we’ll see.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Nah, Aaron Rowand is way too underappreciated to make the All-Star team.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
I think we get 2
Timmy and B-Money. WIlson is too unknown and I think a guy like Wagner will go ahead of him. Rowand is good but OF usually goes to big name guys.
Still defending Rich Aurilia, and the Niners' classic unis
But Rowand is a big name now.
He was an all-star last year, and his stats are the same or slightly better than this time last year.
Current OF vote leaders are Soriano, Fukudome, and Griffey. The other “big names” in the voting are Beltran, Carlos Lee, and I suppose Matt Holliday. Then there’s Burrell and Ankiel who are pretty well known but have never been picked to the AS team. Last year they had 4 reserve OFs, so I think it’s very possible for Rowand to make it.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on May 28, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Speaking of All-Stars...
....I used my write-in votes on Fred Lewis and would like to encourage everyone else to do the same.
If just one of us does it, they’ll think he’s crazy.
If two of us do it, they’ll think we’re both gay.
But if three of us do it, they might think it’s a movement. And that’s just what it’ll be…the Write In Fred Lewis Anti-Massacree Movement.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on May 28, 2008 11:32 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Amen on the Freddy Lew write in...
...but he has no realistic chance.
If four of us do it, they’ll think we’re a bridge club, possibly a crazy gay one.
by Johnny Disaster on May 28, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
You were gay last month?
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 28, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Gotta keep up with the trends.
I hear straight is the new gay.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
speaking of freddie
has anyone seen his home/away splits? unreal esp with a lefty, maybe his oppo approach works well for him.
home: 330/404/534/948
away: 203/276/380/656
Timmy and Bengie
Wilson has no chance and Rowand hasn’t hit enough HRs to garner attention.
The bigger question is will Timmy start? At this point it looks like Webb, Timmy or Volquez, w/ Volquez in the lead.
by positiveuphemism on May 28, 2008 11:43 AM PDT reply actions
Another way of looking at this
If the CY voting were to happen right now, how would it look?
Probably 1) Webb, 2) Volquez, 3) Lincecum.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
I'm behind the times
Wasn’t aware of that. I guess Timmeh is looking even better. Damn Tyler Walker for bumping up that ERA!
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
The Giants will get no respect
The years of losing will do that. 1 player, probably the Enchanter.
by Johnny Disaster on May 28, 2008 12:04 PM PDT reply actions
I doubt any Giants will be voted in, and I can’t see Clint Hurdle choosing one of our guys. I’m going with just Lincecum being chosen.
That sounds quite possible
But I sure hope you’re wrong. Tim and Bengie at the very least deserve to go.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Tim definitely, and I could see Rowand getting in too. I don’t think Molina’s going to be good enough over the rest of the first half of baseball to keep up his batting line and make the team.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
Rowand
could make it as a reserve if Beltran is voted in as the only CF, or if no CFs are voted in.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
McLouth
The pirates need an all-star and McClouth is the player with the best case. He happens to play CF.
Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park
by Speedforthewin on May 28, 2008 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Xavier Nady
will most likely be the lone Pirate. As of today, McLouth is the man, but Nady is will probaly be more consistent through the next month.
Wilson's era is higher than 5
I dont think he’s gonna make it. Timmy’s a guarantee, though. And I’d hope Molina makes it because there’s not as much competition at catcher on the ballot as there is OF. He’s pretty much up against just Brian McCann, and maybe Russell Martin if he heats up. Maybe Rowand makes it as a reserve, though.
Timmy
Maybe Rowand
Don't believe the lies Bill!!!! look at the sparkly ERA!!! Sparkly, Sparkly!!! - McCovey Chronicles
Agreed
Molina may be chosen, but will likely decline to rest the injured legs for three days. Rowand should really be the starting CF, since as of today three corner OF’s are leading the voting. So we need to get campaigning to vote Rowand in. He deserves to start, and may not make the cut as a reserve if the roster must allow for Soriano and Griffey as starters. Lincecum is an obvious choice, as dominant as he’s been. Wilson has been good, not great. The saves total is deceiving. He has all-star potential, but I don’t see him reaching it by July.
Lincecum and Molina
I don’t think Wilson will get in until he does it again next season and with a slightly better ERA. Rowand has the name ID and contract now to warrant it, with decent numbers, but I don’t think his numbers are special enough yet to be selected by the coaching staff.
Lincecum is a lock, especially with Webb showing some troubles now. And a catcher who hits .330 with good RBIs has a good shot in my mind. But Molina’s fate will be decided by whether or not a competing catcher would be his team’s only representative.
Mass Campaign to Vote for Ray Durham
it may be our only means, as fans, to raise his shiny trade value as much as possible before the deadline.
unfortunately, Sabean might not get the joke, but rather fall victim himself and sign him for 3 more years.
by ExcuseMeSwing on May 28, 2008 1:54 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Rowand is in the top 10 for hitting. In RBIs, about 10 OFs ahead of him, almost all of them corners.
Beltran? Sure he is from NY, but he’s hitting 257. Pence is also a CF. Who’s Ludwig of St Loo?
so I think Rowand plays some center.
Benjie and Tim too. Among pitchers, the old guys mostly want the time off, they might as well let Tim pitch an inning, more likely 3.
adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson
I’m a bit surprised that Rowand isn’t anywhere in the top 15 for AS voting. However, Michael Bourn is on the list. double-u tee eff?
Astros are rather over-represented so far. I wonder if a lot of the ballots counted have been from Minute Maid? Kaz is 2nd in the voting for second basemen.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
In fifth place in the catcher voting is Houston’s JR Towles, whose batting line is .149/.273/.294. Even I’m not enough of a homer to vote for a guy like that (if he were a Giant). I couldn’t even bring myself to vote for Ortmeier whose OPS is about 100 points higher. An all-star with a sub-Mendoza batting average would be a truly embarrassing spectacle.
So yeah, I’m thinking Astros fans are doing a good job of stuffing the ballots so far.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
First, No Giant Will Be Elected As A Starting Position Player
Second, inspite of the statistically worthy years both Rowand and Molina are putting up they are very unlikely to get selected as backups either. There are just too many outfielders on contending teams that are also having good years (Fukudome and Soriano of Chicago, Lee and Pence of Houston, Ankiel and Ludwick of St Louis, Burrell and Werth of Philadelphia, Braun and Hart of Milwaukee, Either and Kemp of Los Angeles, and Church of New York. Threre are also many worthy from other non contending teams. All 3 Pittsburgh outfielders McLouth, Nady, and Bay; and of course Dunn of Cincinnati and Holliday of Colorado. As for Molina, he is worhy but he will be beaten out by Soto of Chicago (who will start and earn the start), McCann of Atlanta (who will be the number one backup and earn it), and Martin of Los Angeles (who will be the other backup because he is on a contender even though Molina has the better stats).
The only Giant that will make the All-Star Game is Tim Lincecum. Wilson’s saves will just not be enough to overcome his bad ERA and WHIP.
outfield
Of all the OF’s you listed, only Nate McLouth is a centerfielder and realistically the only guy in the NL with potential to keep Rowand off the all-star roster.
Not True
Ankiel has been St Louis’ centerfielder all year. Kemp has moved to CF recently and was a centerfielder throughout his minor league career. Pence was also a centerfielder throughout his minor league career. In a pinch Werth, Church, Fukudome, and even Soriano can play centerfield. This is just not going to matter in the selection of outfielders for the NL.
by giantsrainman on May 28, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
true about Ankiel and Kemp
However, neither are having all-star seasons. Both having good seasons, but not all-star worthy. Pence is borderline. Jayson Werth isn’t even a full-time player. Church had a hot start but is starting to level off; not all-star caliber. Griffey would probably get the CF nod over Fukudome. And Soriano is a train wreck defensively.
Rowand is leading all NL outfielders in batting average. He is also a Gold Glove centerfielder … which will certainly play a factor in the selection process. Not to mention, Clint Hurdle is from the NL West and loves the hard-nosed players. At this point, one of either McLouth or Rowand would be named a reserve, guaranteed.
Just Timmeh.
Wilson’s saves will be trumped by his otherwise wildness, and I can see Molina not making the list of reserves.
Derin McMains had five fingers, but he only used three.
Molina has to get selected
Many thought it was a travesty that he wasn’t last year, and this year, he’s doing a lot better.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
Wilson needs
25 saves by the break and at least a low 4 ERA if hes gonna make it, doubt that happens. timmy is for sure, b money will if they take 3 or 4 catchers, rowand could just cus hes CF and the CF pool is weak compared to the corners
It Will Take The NL Going With Four Catchers For Molina To Make It - Unlikely
I have already adressed the idea that Rowand has a leg up because he is a centerfielder above. There are pelnty of other centerfield options.
Wilson doesn’t have the ERA or the reputation to make an AS team. Nevermind that he’s doing his job as good as anyone else out there.
The Giants website has Aurilia at 3B (he’s started the majority of games), Ort at 1B (70 AB’s?) and ROBERTS in LF over Lewis. That is criminal. The whole “let’s put out the All-Star ballots in April with a list of players that was determined weeks before the season started” is criminal.
The fact that the Giants actually have a few legit AS candidates shows just how far they’re playing over their head… and they aren’t winning. When Castillo, Rowand, Molina and Durham all cool down, watch out, Padres!
I'm writing in Lewis with all my ballots, and I'm not voting until the last week.Bengie Molina: stretching doubles into singles since 1998.
i dont know how i did that.
Bengie Molina: stretching doubles into singles since 1998.
If you put text in between two at-signs it gets the graybar treatment.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
really?
I wanna play
look at me I'm grey, or am I gray?
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
It's only criminal...
if you think that the 2nd half of the previous year doesn’t count.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
Wilson
His ERA and WHIP are bad at the moment. But they could change. I suspect they will. I feel he has the second best chance of any Giant to make the team.
But it’s likely going to be just Lincecum
Only 921 games until the end of Zito's contract
Vote
We need to be positive and vote. Timmay should be a shoe-in and Rowland and Bengie both deserve it, especially if they keep putting up the numbers. We all need to vote as often as possible for Aaron and Benjie. I realize they probably won’t be voted in, but the higher they are in the voting the more pressure will be on Hurdle to pick them.
And Lewis!
Write in Fred. Even though there’s none chance he actually gets in.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on May 29, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Likely just Timmy
Tim Lincecum should make it unless he stumbles badly. Right now he’s in the thick of the Cy Young race despite playing for a team that can’t score runs.
Bengie Molina and Aaron Rowand would be very legitimate candidates as of now. But I think both are hitting over their heads and will likely slump sometime between now and the All-Star game.
As for Brian Wilson, I’m not completely sold on him as the closer yet, so I would be SHOCKED if he made the All-Star team. Very small sample, but thus far Alex Hinshaw and Merkin Valdez have outpitched Brian, who has been surprisingly shaky despite his league-leading 15 saves in 17 chances, or whatever he’s up to now.
To be honest, I am shocked to see Brian even mentioned as an All-Star candidate.
But Tim should make the team, and Molina in particular probably has a good shot unless he falters badly. I see Aaron Rowand as a glue guy, not an All-Star (although I will agree he has played like one thus far).
Just the one, Lincecum
Wilson may have the saves, but he doesn’t have the saves, previous form or play for a contending team, so he won’t make it.
Rowand isn’t going to be voted in & again doesn’t play for a competitve team. The other candidates are bigger names (Holliday) or play for teams in need of a candidate (McLouth, Bay) so i’d be surpised if he makes it. I don’t think the fact that he plays CF makes any difference.
Molina i also don’t see making it, like last year, he’s competing against Soto, McCann & Martin who will probably all be prefered.
Proud owner of the most boring Username! Alex Hinshaw: Now showing in a bullpen near you!
You really think Matt Holliday is a bigger name than Rowand?
To me, Holliday and Rowand are both “second tier” stars, obviously not as well known as a Griffey or Beltran but pretty comparable to each other (and to guys like Burrell, Dunn etc.). Rowand’s gamerosity has got him a lot of notice.
I think the second criteria is more likely to get him bumped as you can usually find one OF (or pitcher) on an otherwise lousy team that looks worthy of the token representation.
Unless he somehow manages to keep up his May pace (.349/.441/.581) all through June, in which case he’s a lock.
All-Father Watch: 1.37 ERA, 5 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 24 Ks in 26 1/3 IP
by EliminateMe on May 29, 2008 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
MVP candidate
Matt Holliday was an MVP candidate last season. I personally think he is overrated, since his away stats are good but far from great, but I would rate Matt ahead of Aaron (and I was reasonably happy with the Rowand signing).
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