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Velez down, Denker up

They're saying it on the postgame wrap right now.  It looks like Eugenio "One tool" Velez was sent down to Fresno and Denker was called up.

As much as I wanted Velez gone, I don't know if Denker should be called up this soon.  I'd rather he got a full year in at Fresno before getting up to the majors and having the opportunity to sit on the bench for several games at a time.

 

Still: Goodbye Eugenio.  Hello Travis.

Your thoughts, McCovey Chronicles readers?  Other than "How much of this post was padding to get to 75 words?" (Hint: A Lot)

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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I am in agreement with you

I’d rather someone like Ochoa or Leone come up. Eh, whatever.

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by Natto on May 20, 2008 9:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I concur

Denker should not be up. As shown like a lot of moves the Giants have made this year, management equates “Youth Movement” with “lets overpromote prospects that need regular time in the minors to our bench!” The reason Ochoa, Leone and McClain should be up is so the young players can get regular time developing in Fresno. Players that the organization knows have no future should be riding the bench behind our vets that we are (hopefully) trying to find trade partners for. Perhaps the best moves by management would be to make Fresno the 2009 Giants by giving Velez, Bocock, Schierholtz, Denker, Timpner, maybe Bowker or Ort and soon to be Sandoval time to work together and develop in preparation for being large parts of next years’ team or if trades work out, the second half of this season.

Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park

by Speedforthewin on May 20, 2008 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and yes, i did include bocock in that statement

Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park

by Speedforthewin on May 20, 2008 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well..

Unless you cut someone/transfer to the 60-day DL someone it was either Denker, Bocock, or Ishikawa. We’ve seen what Bocock can’t do, why not see what Denker can’t do.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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by WalrusMan on May 20, 2008 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dave

Couldn’t we have transferred Dave Roberts to the 60-day DL due to his surgery and just let Joe Castle go if Dave was ready to come back in august or whatever?

Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park

by Speedforthewin on May 20, 2008 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I suppose Dave Roberts..

Could have gone on the 60-day DL. Didn’t think of that.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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Freezing Giants Blog

by WalrusMan on May 21, 2008 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank goodness they put Timpner on the 40-man, eh? Otherwise they might have had another option.

All-Father Watch: 1.16 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 23 Ks in 23 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 21, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 23, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This should be interesting. Denker’s a bad defender also. But, the kid has plate discipline.

The best thing about Denker making it to the Majors is that we got him for Mark Sweeney. Take that, bums!

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on May 20, 2008 9:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm torn

I want to see Denker play.

But, yeah, he should stay in AAA for awhile. But, hey, let’s see what he can do.

And, guys, I know many of us (including me) want Leone or McClain or Ochoa up. But it’s become obvious at this point that Giants management do not see them having a place on the current or future Giants team

Only 926 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on May 20, 2008 9:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I got to give credit to Baggarly – this was up on the blog this afternoon. Dude’s on it.

by KCE on May 20, 2008 9:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Denker?

I hardly even know her!

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by Natto on May 20, 2008 9:50 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Denker came up for me full-time in Baseball Mogul in 2011 and hit .302/.384/.470 with 18 homers, winning the ROTY award. I’m pretty sure that’ll happen to him in real life.

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by Natto on May 20, 2008 9:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

3 years

That ‘11 callup just goes to show how premature this call-up is.

I’m all for young players and understand the 40-man issues, but this is getting ridiculous. Denker was just hitting below the Mendoza line at AA – I’m not sure that this sends the right message to the team’s prospects….

by aGIANTfan on May 20, 2008 10:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And..

Denker isn’t even in my BBM 2003 game yet, so either he’s too young or he just sucks too much and isn’t a prospect to be in the game.

Hint: See Signature

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by WalrusMan on May 20, 2008 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yay!

I tired of Velez long ago…

by WTF on May 20, 2008 9:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ehhhhh

i have doubts that denker’s bat is AAA ready much less major league ready
and his defense is “projected” to be sub-par, which means its gotta be pretttttyyy bad in the present moment

waiting for 2011....

by Osama91w9 on May 20, 2008 10:15 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm just glad Velez is down...

I don’t think I could ever like him again because of that grounder he didn’t make out of pure laziness…

by boonitez on May 20, 2008 10:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Kid struggles at AA and makes it to The Show two months later, what a country!

There still is hope for EME and TI. This move is based on who is on the 40-man roster otherwise Brian Horwitz might be the player being promoted. Didn’t Denker strikeout a lot during spring training?

by wilriv21 on May 20, 2008 10:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

At least there's one thing not too bad for me.

I do consider Eugenio Velez to be more of a “prospect” than Travis Denker. That “prospect” applies to both of them I guess. Both of them were in A ball for a few years and got promoted pretty quickly to the upper minors and the majors. But Velez can be a game changer if he can learn to get on base and learn to steal a few bags. Denker I don’t see as that, and at best he’s a bench player on a good team or 7th/8th place hitter on an ok team.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
Freezing Giants Blog

by WalrusMan on May 20, 2008 11:09 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

What a proud day!

I never thought my half-hearted adoption of Mark Sweeney would ever amount to anything, or that the PTBNL would be decent, but what do you know!

Here’s an article from spring training from the local authority on sports, the SF Bay Guardian, about Denker. It’s not really that great of an article (except the quote by the 72-year old man: “He exudes a certain grittiness. He looks like he’s been in the majors for 15 seasons, not 15 minutes.” Gamer!) but apparently he was a sponsored skateboarder at age 4?!

I like what I’m seeing so far.

Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?

by scotterduder on May 20, 2008 11:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Meh

I’d rather Denker get more ABs in Fresno, but since he’s on the 40-man who else was going to come up? It’s sad because he won’t be seeing a lot of action, what with Aurilia and Durham “heating up.” I think Bochy will play those two old farts, if anything to boost what minimal trade value they have. Which means Denker’s going to ride the pine, and that sucks.

Noonan. Nooooonan!

by Giant Fan in Singapore on May 20, 2008 11:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure how all this contract stuff works but...

Don’t people talk about not promoting prospects to the Majors until they’re definitely ready because we’ll just lose them a year earlier? I like seeing young guys play… but then again, I like seeing young guys play.

by lmaozedong on May 21, 2008 12:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sabean is a fucking idiot.

by AndOnTheDrums... on May 21, 2008 12:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

And you’re just now figuring this out?!? Welcome to the club.

Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.

by PacBellBoozer on May 21, 2008 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

fuck it...bring up broshuis

at least he will get one blog entry on how he wet his pants from the excitement of finally getting to the show….if we are gonna make a mockery of what a callup means, lets go all the way…...hey, and what about eme?? shoot…stick him in left and lets see what that noodle arm can do.

sabean is a joke

by bacci40 on May 21, 2008 1:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

It just goes to show

Sabean actually does read this blog

And then he does this:

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2008 3:00 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

The name game

Nasty Nate Schierholtz
Dangerous Dan Ortmeier
Jolting John Bowker

Please welcome… Tremendous Travis Denker !!!eleven

Fred Lewis can stand under my umbrella.

by S.F. Giangst on May 21, 2008 5:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

you good

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on May 21, 2008 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t understand the irritation over this move. Leone and Ochoa are NOT the answer. Not only because they’re not on the 40 man roster, but they’re not prospects. Denker went to Triple A and got hot…..If your players suck, at least play the hot hand.

"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean

by Smotheredinhugs on May 21, 2008 5:31 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

Todd Jennings: Next up on the Non-prospect Backup Catcher Train. Next Stop: The Pine at AT&T Park

by Speedforthewin on May 21, 2008 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't recommend this comment enough!

Seriously, how difficult is it to see that the older non-prospects are the ones that should ride the pine? Then again, why did the Giants way until over a month and a half of the season had gone by to put Frandsen on the 60-day DL, thus enabling a roster addition? I keep trying to assure myself that the FO isn’t made up of idiots, but it’s getting harder and harder.

Nevertheless, I am happy that Velez is down, and I look forward to Denker at-bats con mucho gusto.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on May 21, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Frandsen...

I think someone pointed out that during the regular season, you’re required to have the 40-man roster filled, so if you didn’t need to add someone, then you keep Frandsen on the 15-day DL until you need the spot.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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Freezing Giants Blog

by WalrusMan on May 21, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i don’t know about Ochoa, but doesn’t Leone maybe make sense as a super-sub backup and pinch hitter? takes walks. has power. sometimes i think he or Mclain might make decent guys to play the Mark Sweeney role. i think it would make sense to try them out, see if they can perform the pinch hit/sub role. And if they don’t cut ‘em when Roberts comes off the 60day dl.

Castillo hits doubles.

by kennv on May 21, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

He could be the positional Yabu. The guy who’s useful because you can abuse him!

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on May 21, 2008 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

yabu has surprised me

maybe he nets them a minor prospect or something at the deadline

by slojoe on May 21, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not impossible.

He has surprised everyone

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 21, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I agree, but then Sabean couldn’t bring every prospect up to see how he performs in the big leagues. You know, because Sabean can’t make those decisions from a guy’s minor-league track record. We should call it the “Linden Rule” – Sabean’s not getting burned again!

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I should have said “I agree, but then Sabean couldn’t bring every prospect up to see how he performs in the big leagues” REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL OF THE MINORS HE SHOULD BE IN.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

This assumes

that they will be riding pine. It’s not “out there” to be sure, but I don’t think it’s a slam dunk either. One thing Denker has going for him is that he can “play” both 2nd and 3rd. Another thing is that he is a righty. Therefore, he won’t be sat when facing lefties. Another thing he has going for him is Ray Durham’s frequent injuries (and hopeful future trade).

I have no problem with these kids being up as long as they get a decent amount of at bats. The ones who have been up so far haven’t been getting as many as they should but they have been playing. If it continues, then I don’t really have a problem with these kids being here (within reason).

Only 926 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on May 21, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brianwinkle: Hey Bochy! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!

Bochy the Boulderheaded Squirrel: Again? That trick never works!

Brianwinkle: Hmm, good point … Okay, watch me promote a prospect two levels above where he ought to be!

Bochy [sotto voce]: Neither does that one …

Brianwinkle: Nothing up my sleeve … Presto!

[Ballplayer leaps out of hat. Ballplayer starts strong but quickly falls apart in a gruesome montage of strikeouts, double plays, pickoffs, and bungled defense. Ballplayer is demoted to AAA, where he continues to struggle and is eventually traded for Juan Pierre.

[Meanwhile, Ivan Ochoa and Justin Leone clamber out of the hat when no one is looking. They knock Brianwinkle to the floor, then proceed to kick him and stomp him and pummel him with Fresno Grizzly plush toys.]

Brianwinkle: It’s Magowan’s fault.

[Exeunt.]

by Evan on May 21, 2008 6:45 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

You had me at exeunt

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on May 21, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld loves these moves!

On Bocock going 0-5 with 3 Ks last night:

It’s like the Giants said to themselves, “Let’s destroy whatever shred of confidence he might have left after he hit .143 in 77 major league at-bats.” Except they probably wouldn’t have used that many big words. Bocock hit .220 in high-A ball last year. He belongs back there or in Double-A.


On Denker coming up:
Brian Sabean has very little left to lose, so he can just keep running through young players, not caring what it’s going to do to them or the Giants down the line. Denker was hitting .314/.417/.510 in 51 at-bats for Fresno, but that was after he hit .184/.308/.263 in 76 at-bats in Double-A. He’s a fringe prospect without the glove for second base or the bat for third. It would do the Giants little harm to play him over Rich Aurilia and Jose Castillo. However, there’s no good reason to have both he and Manny Burriss on the roster.

by KCE on May 21, 2008 9:39 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld won’t be getting a Christmas card from the Giants front office this year.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on May 21, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld Writers

Can be tiresome with their jabs at GMs moves. Is there any evidence that bringing up a player prematurely has a lasting effect on their career? Maybe in the event they are sent back down, the cup of coffee is a strong motivator to the player, who now knows what to work on and re-doubles his efforts to get back? I wonder if anyone has studied this, or is this just another baseball “truth.”

by out machine on May 21, 2008 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely

Rotoworld is a great source of updates, but yeah, the jabs are retarded sometimes. It isn’t even that they continually make jabs at GMs, especially at those they consider stupid (and they aren’t the only ones – Sabean, Bavasi, etc). It’s that their agenda is screwy. They clearly dislike cycling guys in and out at positions, bullpens by committee, and promotion of guys who aren’t at all certain of putting up quality major-league numbers.

The “why,” of course, is that they want fantasy numbers, and in that deep NL-only league, at least Durham all year is likely to put up reasonably predictable numbers, while the combo of Durham, Velez, Denker, Burriss, et al means that you can’t own one guy. Rotoworld tends to be happier with a crap player staying there when that player steals bases – like Velez – even when that player sucks and gets a lot of CS, because CS isn’t a normal fantasy stat.

There are also plenty of good players that Rotoworld doesn’t much like and underrates – say, Dustin Pedroia or Placido Polanco – because that player doesn’t give you HR or SB. Also, Rotoworld almost completely disregards defense for obvious reasons. Take everything they say with a grain of salt.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Take everything they say with a grain of salt.”

See: Alex Hinshaw’s “soft” 94 mph stuff

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 21, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

thats a joke

rotoworld is making me think “soft” stuff is a good thing

by Azmanz on May 21, 2008 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

and on top of the snarkiness

it’s gramatically incorrect. Should be “there’s no reason to have both Manny Burriss and him on the roster.”

I got one word for you: "youneverknow"

by senorvegas on May 21, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

Rotoworld doesn’t have much in the way of editing beyond spell-check.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

cnat help it - whenever i see that handle "senorvegas"

i think of “Senor Smoke” – one of the best nicknames ever

by slojoe on May 21, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rotoworld before the season: “The Giants have no one in their minor league system worth anything!1”

Rotoworld now: “The Giants are ruining their prospects!1”

So which is it? Is it garbage or is it something worth protecting?

They are snark for snark’s sake. There isn’t any real analysis going on. They are a glorified news reader. An RSS with a groupthink mentality.

by Lars The Wanderer on May 21, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I agree, it’s not even like they’re particularly witty either. Oooo, the Giants management doesn’t use big words. Hilarious. They really seem to only make their “jokes” at the expense of the Giants and the Mariners. It just seems lazy and unfunny to make the same snarky comment over and over again.

Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?

by scotterduder on May 21, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be fair, they haven’t been negative about all the prospects. Bumgarner got ranked sixth on their list of rising prospects this season.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on May 21, 2008 8:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

rotoworld right on the money...except

sending bocock back to high a isnt the answer, and sending him to the eastern league, where very few hit, isnt the answer either…and thats why he went to the pcl

but they are right about denker….and just wait till, after sitting on the bench for a week, he is put out to play 2nd, and makes 3 e’s on one play

by bacci40 on May 21, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t get the motivation behind Denker coming up, unless he gets time at third and spares us from the tedium and ennui of watching dopey-faced Castillo suck over there. Let this be the case, with more John Bowker at first and the return of Hawaiian shirt Fridays.

As for Velez, yeah, I agree with sending him down. I hope he takes the time to get it right while he’s there.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 21, 2008 9:48 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

ennui

good word, but redundant when conjoined with the preceding tedium…

:)

Delaying the disappointment: I adopt Hector Sanchez because he's only 17.

by tedfordfan on May 21, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Castillo is redundant to me. :)

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 21, 2008 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unbelievable

Evan is right, Groug is right (forgive me if you belong in this section and I forgot you).

This is just exhibit 28582384 as evidence for “Brian Sabean doesn’t have any idea what he is doing.” It’s as if Sabean thinks that there is some sort of magic gamerness that he needs to promote a guy to discover, that Denker will somehow come up to the bigs and that elusive, manly quality will allow him to succeed where others have failed, minor-league numbers be damned.

Denker has very good numbers. IN 51 AB IN AAA. 51! What kind of sample size is that? Give Denker a bad week and all of a sudden he looks like Ochoa with a bad glove. Sure, in the great scheme of things this might not be a big deal, but what is the point of having Leone at all if when callups need to be made, he isn’t the guy?

Rotoworld is right in that Sabean has little to lose. Why not cycle through players when you have created the mess that requires promoting guys 2 levels above where they should be? At least Sabean can claim he is giving these guys a look rather than stocking the team with boring AAAA retreads, and many fans will simply accept that (even if they won’t accept prolonged losing) as proper, especially if a guy catches fire for the first week or two. It buys him a little more time as some fans temporarily get excited about the next J.R. Phillips.

What I don’t get is that maybe, maybe it makes sense to promote a bad bat/good glove guy for the sake of the pitching staff. Even if that were true, though, then why Denker? Why Velez? Why bring in Castillo?

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:00 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Castillo was a last second stop gap measure brought in to replace the sadly injured Kevin Frandsen, who would be getting the lion’s share of time at 3B. Velez, because he does have one tool that is unbelieveable (speed), and one that is above average (arm). the rest of him…well…let’s call that a work in progress. Denker is on the 40-man, has a hot bat, and hell give the guy a shot.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still don’t get it. Castillo sucked in the majors, sucked in the minors, and isn’t exactly Matt Williams at 3B. Why bring him in as an emergency stopgap at all when Leone is around? Why not have Castillo in the minors and Leone up?

It doesn’t really matter, as neither is going to be very good, but it’s another example of Sabean failing to maximize the talent on the roster.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I haven’t seen Leone play enough to know, but I do keep reading that his defense is beyond Velez bad. If that’s true, that would be the reason he does not get called up.

I am quite frustrated with Castillo’s propensity to ground into double plays as well, but he hasn’t been that bad. Not claiming that he’s good, but it really isn’t that bad.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m really not familiar with Leone’s defense. Dan Szymborski’s BTF Giants ZiPS projections showed Leone as “average” at 1B and 3B, “fair” at 2B, “very good” at LF and RF, and “poor” at SS and CF. Castillo rates “average” at 3B and “poor” at 2B and SS.

Castillo’s .267/.329/.447 line, good for a 102 OPS+, has been a pleasant surprise.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

When Leone was the heir apparent at third with Seattle, before getting Beltre’d, he was considered a good glove. I don’t know what happened, but clearly the Giants don’t think he’s a 3b, because they keep playing him in the outfield even though Fresno has plenty of outfielders and no real third baseman.

I’m not saying they’re wrong, but on the other hand we KNOW our current 3b is a bad fielder, so how much worse can Leone be?

by Evan on May 21, 2008 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Like I said, I just keep reading about his defensive struggles. You guys have convinced me. Move Roberts to the 60-Day DL and call up Leone. If nothing else, dude can play everywhere. Maybe he can get some mask time, in case of another emergency catching situation.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Any post that says “Groug is right” is a good post.

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on May 21, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

i found this funny

by Azmanz on May 21, 2008 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why not?

I’m not sure what Denker is, and I’m really not sure how to take any stats put up in Norwich because of Dodd. That being said, 51 AB’s in Fresno isn’t an indication of anyting other than a hot hitter. I really don’t think coming up to the bigs will retard Denker’s devolpment in any way, shape, or form. I don’t think Bowker needs any time in AAA at this point either. The Giants’ are smart to use this down year to seperate the wheat from the chaff. Bowker has taken big steps so far in pitch recognition, and his defense at 1B has been more than adequate. Why not see what Denker has? Richie and Ray may be hot right, but Durham is one IBB away from a catastrphic hamstring pull (while jogging to 1B), and Aurilia can play anywhere in the IF. Bring ‘em up, let ‘em play, and find out if there is any future in the group, or if they are just a bunch of JR Phillips clones (sorry JR!)

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 10:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Why not see what Denker has?

Suppose Denker flops. What do we have?

Would that make him a nonprospect? Could we cut him from the 40-man to make room for someone else? Of course not. It would just mean that he’s not ready for the show yet. Which would hardly be surprising, since he’s 22 and has a total of 130 at-bats above A-ball (in which he has hit .238 with little power, by the way).

This is why these moves are so ridiculous: We don’t learn anything from them. There’s no reason on earth to think Travis Denker is ready to play in the majors. We’re just flailing.

by Evan on May 21, 2008 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Suppose Denker flops. What do we have?

Would that make him a nonprospect? Could we cut him from the 40-man to make room for someone else? Of course not. It would just mean that he’s not ready for the show yet. Which would hardly be surprising, since he’s 22 and has a total of 130 at-bats above A-ball (in which he has hit .238 with little power, by the way).

We could trade him to the A’s.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2008 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Justin Knoedler!

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on May 21, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh yeah… I forgot.

BTW, Knoedler is hitting .132/.200/.309 for Sacramento (in a 68 AB sample).

Linden is Linden – .333/.447/.538 for Sacramento… with 22 K in 78 AB.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

i see he is getting that K rate down

by Azmanz on May 21, 2008 10:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jerome Williams, of course.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 21, 2008 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And suppose he hits .260 .335 10 45 for the rest of the year. While a flop won’t prove he’s not a prospect, but a strong year could prove that he is. I really don’t see the harm exposing these guys to major league pitching, except for starting the arbitration clock. If he does well, great. If he doesn’t, then he gets to go back to Fresno for a little more seasoning.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Denker

A bit premature, for sure. I would like this move if and when we offload Aurilia and/or Durham. As long as these guys are taking ABs away from Denker, Burriss et al, there’s no sense in having them up.

This move only makes sense if Denker starts more games than not, particularly at the expense of Castillo and Aurilia. The chances of that are slim, thus, Brian Sabean is stupid.

Orange Black and Blue - The Purgatory of the Giants Lost

by shn155 on May 21, 2008 10:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Right now, Durham and Aurilia need to play, because sitting them on the bench isn’t going to get them traded. They should be getting some days off, though, to keep them fresh.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 21, 2008 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Good Move

About time they sent Velez down. Hopefully, he will work on his defense and regain some confidence at the plate. There was a nice article in the Fresno Bee about the Giants’ roving minor league instructors spending some time in Fresno. Hopefully, they will play him full time. I am okay with bringing Denker up. The dude can hit the ball – his AA stats notwithstanding.

by APGiantsFan on May 21, 2008 10:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m going to call him “Darling Denker Schoen”

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on May 21, 2008 11:02 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Velez down is good

The other night when he got picked off, I let out a loud “Uhhhhgggghhh!!!!!” to which my wife responded “What is the matter dear?”.

I then re-winded the DVR and called in my 11 year old son who has about 2 weeks of “non-Little League” experience (you know, where he got taught how to lead off of first base.) which was 2 years ago, and I asked him to tell my wife what Vel-f@$king-ez did wrong. My boy correctly informed her that Vel-f@$king-ez needed to make sure the pitcher’s plant foot started home before he went. This is the same 11 year old son who asked me “Wasn’t that Winn’s ball?” a couple of Sundays ago vs. the Reds. Good Boy.

Vel-f@$king-ez is a train wreck right now, and it cannot get better at this level. He is too screwed up in the head now to get it right, so down he must go. Hopefully he can relax, and reflect upon the learning experiences he has had in the show and get himself back into shape mentally.

Regarding Denker coming up? I have no opinion, so I’ll take the generally agreed upon attitude of “WTF Sabien!!!”.

“WTF Sabien”!!!

by toofruss on May 21, 2008 11:18 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

you are right about velez' probs with seeing lefty pickoff moves...however....

in that situation in the 9th….he never shoulda had to steal….omar shoulda bunted him to 2nd, where a single woulda easily scored him

so after omar was told to swing away, and pop fouled out…it put more pressure on the kid to run

so the org is now punishing the kid for bochy’s constant stubborness re bunting in late innings

lest we forget, the inning prior, we had men at 1st and 2nd, none out and rowand was told to swing away

this is a small ball team….everyone, and i mean everyone, should be told to bunt in that situation

forget demoting velez….bochy needs to go…and sabean needs to join him

by bacci40 on May 21, 2008 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seeing the big picture, I'm not

You are looking at a larger view, which could be right and could be wrong I don’t know, as I am not paid to run a ball team, justifiably so.

I’m just looking at the small things, which in Count Choc-ula’s case are Pony League F*$^-ups that need to be worked on in the Minors, not in the show. This is due to his head swimming with all of the information at once, plus the stress of trying to figure out what is the right thing to do on the spot. At this point he is beyond the Benitez level of head case, and working his way toward Ankiel.

by toofruss on May 21, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Working his way towards Ankiel?

Sweet. We could use a power-hitting outfielder.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 21, 2008 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lonestar over at the giant's mlb board tried to use matty as an example

of how a real major leaguer handles a demotion. i retorted (incorrectly) that despite matty being incapable of hitting a curve or a breaking ball, i never recalled him being sent back down. lonestar linked me to matty’s stats, and lo and behold, he was indeed sent back to the minor’s on two occasions. however, lonestar did not note when he was sent back.

matty started the seasons in 87, 88 and 89 all at phoenix….when he came up, he stayed up till the end of those seasons. that is why i didnt recall his being sent down, because he was never sent down during the season…in 87 matty played in 84 games with 245 abs, 88 he played in 52 games and 156 abs, 89 he played in 84 games with 292 abs.

velez has played in 36 games with 117 abs

why do i note this? i note this because those late 80s teams were committed to a youth movement…they had no other choice.

this org should be working in the same way…but to start the season, velez was nowhere near the starting lineup…and the first goof he made, bochy was all over his ass

it may frustrate you to watch the kids make mistakes, and maybe velez will never be an all around ball player….but if an org is indeed committed to some sort of rebuilding, shuttling kids back and forth from aaa to the mlb aint the way to do it.

and if velez’ head is swimming with too much information to absorb at one time…then why in the heck do you have him playing 3 different positions during the course of those 36 games??

face facts…the problem with this club is twofold

sabean and bochy…and both must be shown the door

by bacci40 on May 21, 2008 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

One huge difference between Matty and Velez is that Williams was fantastic with the glove even while struggling with the bat. Velez is playing 3 positions for two reasons:

A) his D is so god awful that he can’t stick at one position
B) he is best used as a super-utility guy a la Chone Figgens.

If he can play halfway decently at 4 positions (2B, 3B, RF, LF) he is an incredibly valuable player. If he has to stick in a corner outfield spot, he is nearly worthless because he will never hit enough to justify his position on the field.

I also strongly disagree that Bochy was “all over his ass”. I think Bochy gave Eugenio a lot of rope before jerking him from the lineup. Velez was not making physcial errors, he was royally screwing up basic tenents of the game. I don’t know if it was lack of effort (which it appeared on TV, which is always hard to tell) or a huge misread of the ball that is totally unacceptable. He’ll either learn from this, or flameout but I don’t think it’s the Giants’ fault.

I do find it a little funny that you can boil every problem with the entire Giants’ organization to Bochy and Sabean, and you’ve turned a poor performance (so far) from Velez into that one sentence.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

ah crap

The ground ball I was ranting about was the one in Philly that cost the Giants the game. That’s what I get for ranting.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Matt Williams was 24 in 1990 when he broke into the Giants lineup for good, posting an OPS+ of 124. I couldn’t find any minor league stats for him. Velez is already 26, and has 20 PAs in AAA.

They are not comparable.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 21, 2008 7:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

though perhaps lonestar was referring to the mental side of the demotion, not compairing them as players.

by tyrannoman on May 22, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here you go, Zen

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 22, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

funny dat

I googled matt williams baseball cube and got a different matt williams…

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 22, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Corrections
“matty started the seasons in 87, 88 and 89 all at phoenix….when he came up, he stayed up till the end of those seasons. that is why i didnt recall his being sent down, because he was never sent down during the season”

Williams started the 1987 season in Phoenix, but was recalled on April 10, less than a week into the season, when Jose Uribe was placed on the DL. He then started 69 of the next 74 games for the Giants (60 at SS, 9 at 3B) before being sent back down to Phoenix on July 3. He stayed in Phoenix until September 1, when the rosters were expanded and he was recalled.

Williams was the Opening Day 3B in 1989, starting at 3B in 9 of the first 10 games, then platooned with Earnest Riles for a couple of weeks (each starting 6 games) before being sent down to Phoenix on May 2. After mashing at Phoenix for almost 3 months, Williams was recalled on July 24, and started 61 of the final 64 games that season for the Giants (47 at 3B, 14 at SS).

For reference, here are links to pages listing all the starting lineups for 1987 and 1989.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 21, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you get it

I think that you might be the last person to realize that we don’t have any Williams type position prospects in the organization. Velez will never be a Williams. Velez’s problems are much more fundamental than Williams’ problems ever were. Williams couldn’t hit ML pitching. That is only ONE of Velez’s problems. Velez is suffering from youth baseball mistakes, which are mental. This is from either lack of training, or brain freeze. So comparing Velez to Williams doesn’t wash. Velez does have a great deal of potential as a utility player however due to his speed, strong arm, and potentially decent bat. So it make sense to get him out of the fire where he can learn to think on his feet, and give us some production next year.

In case you missed it, the organization has been drafting and developing pitching for our own staff and for trading for experience position players to support Barry Bonds. That is an organizational philosophy which does not get changed overnight.

Bochy is working with what he has, and in my opinion is not doing too badly. (That is if you believe that he is helping Sabien showcase the vets for trade value, which I do.) He has structured the Bullpen into something pretty good, and is managing the games the way you need to with a very slow clean-up hitter out there, and speed in most of the other spots. Most importantly, I don’t think he is over using the young starting pitchers which is going to pay off in the next couple of years.

Sabien on the other hand is one of the organizational philosophers, so is partially culpable for the status of the farm system, no argument here. But being that he has restructured the scouting/development crew, and is very vocal about getting college experienced position players with the high picks it is fair to say that he has started down a different path. That path will not bear any fruit this year. It might next year if we can get some value in return for Molina and Winn (and maybe Durham) this year. But realistically 2010 will be were we can start judging Sabien for this state of the “rebuild” or “Youth Movement” whatever you choose to call it.

Meanwhile, we have some pretty good pitching to keep us entertained.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

One more time let me ask

Other than the ill-fated AJ trade, when has Sabean ever traded excess pitching prospects for a bat? That “philosophy” we hear about so much seems much more notable in the breach than in the observance.

For that matter, during the (winning) Bonds years how much of our pitching staff was home grown? Ortiz seems like the start and end of that list to me.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 22, 2008 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I see a lot of talk about this “strategy” but that is the only example I can think of putting it in practice.

Oh yeah, and Accardo.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 22, 2008 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The also somewhat ill fated Accardo for Hillenbrand and Vinnie Chulk

I say “somewhat ill fated”, as Chulk is being productive. But then again, have you seen Accardo’s numbers from 08, before he went down?

Otherwise the young pitching has been developed or was traded for other pitching like Jason Schmidt and Livan Hernandez. But the Sidney Ponson deal must also be acknowledged. For Schmidt we got several seasons of quality, including some Cy Young type stuff for a while, and I think (meaning I’m only pretty sure) we got a sandwich pick when the Dodgers signed him. Livan gave us a couple of good years. Ponson stunk. Then again, what we gave up in these deals has not really amounted to much either. Grilli is the only player still in MLB as far as I know.

Also, one thing people seem eager to forget regarding the AJ trade is how Nathan SUCKED in the post season for us in 03. Jose Cruz was bad, but Nathan was a GAS CAN. The trade only became an issue a year later when we couldn’t close a game and Joe started doing well in MN. Well Joe was brilliant for us too the year before we traded him, until the pressure came. He has been mediocre in the post season for MN at best. Albeit AJ did not turn out, but at the time Nathan was a choke artist. Liriano had one good year, and Bonser is adequate.

Since you seem so eager to beat up Sabien, how do you rate the Morris for Rajai Davis trade? I know you will say that “anyone would have made that trade”. I know Davis is an Athletic now, but we have 10Mil off of the books this year because of it, which I’m pretty sure is getting paid to Barry Bonds in deferred compensation.

If you want to fault Sabien, I’d go for the misjudging Vlad’s back problems, or the low balling on FA offers to Carlos Lee (who was probably going to Houston no matter what) and Soriano last off season which led to the complete organizational melt down on the Zito deal.

Anyway, that was the philosophy, I never said it was productive. Free Agency has been a “bit” more productive.

I am reserving my judgment on Sabien until at least 2010, and given the current pitching staff I’d say he has earned that much.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 9:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That seems overstating Nathan’s ‘03 post season. He had one bad appearance. His second appearance he walked one batter and then was yanked and sent directly to the doghouse from which he never returned.

As for Morris, while it’s certainly good that we aren’t the ones paying him 10m this year, is there anyway possible for me to credit Sabean for ditching the contract without blaming him for signing it in the first place? Mattie joins a lengthening list of players who’s performance became so bad they were essentially forced into retirement while in the middle of lucrative contracts signed by Brian Sabean. A list that would include Morris, Alfonso, Grissom, Bernard, Benitez (he has 2 IP this year for Toronto but the end seems near), and quite possibly will grow to include Zito, and maybe Durham and Roberts. He also tried desperately to sign Juan Pierre who will almost surely be a part of a similar list for Ned Colleti. (By way of injury it also includes Nen and Matheny—that’s a different matter entirely but it is notable that they picked up Nen’s option after they knew he was scheduled for shoulder surgery.) So no, I don’t believe the Morris trade really amounts to much of a shiny spot on the resume. Now the Sweeney trade does indeed look quite nice.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 22, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Denker turns out to be anything.

So you are Calling the Nen signing a bad one? The Matheny one as well?

But you don’t acknowledge the Schmidt or Hernandez trades, or the Jeff Kent trade either. Those were all good trades that netted multi-season production. And with the exception of Matt Williams not very much went out.

It is real easy to pick on the negative.

I’l agree with you on Alfonso, and Benitez. Very bad decisions. Marvin Bernard was drafted by the Giants in 92. He was kept on way too long though. Matt Morris was productive for 1.5 seasons and dumped just in time. The current Durham contract is bad, but the first one was decent. The Roberts deal was bad, given that we all knew how fragile he is. Aurillia? We are getting a lot of good defensive innings and his bat is starting to come around now, so I’ll wait to judge.

(BTW, Ned Colleti is TERRIBLE. He has Schmidt, Jones, AND Pierre around his neck.)

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fun fact: Schmidt, Jones, and Pierre combined are owed less money by the Dodgers than Barry Zito is by the Giants.

by Evan on May 22, 2008 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Shoot Me

If you EVER see me defending the Zito deal.

To justify that money he would have to win at least 17 to 19 games EVERY year of the deal, which he has already failed to do.

Zito may learn how to win with the crap he has now, but it will never be worth the contract.

The only thing that almost makes it somewhat palatable is that we did not outlay and major FA money this off-season. And as the other deals come off of the books our margin should start to get larger due to the “Youth Movement” . In that respect the Zito deal wont hurt us as badly. That and inflation shrinking those dollars as we speak.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

And BTW

Zito has been more productive over the last two weeks than those three.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Performance over two random weeks in May is possibly not the best way to judge a signing.

Regardless, I don’t understand why you bother to take a shot at the albatrosses around Colletti’s neck when it’s inarguable that Giants’ situation is in every way more dire than the Dodgers’.

by Evan on May 22, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't argue with this

nor do I defend the Zito contract. Are you reading? I’m questioning Collette.

The Dodgers have a much better development system than the Giants do. No argument here. And this year they will have a better record.

Collette had nothing to do with that however. He has made 3 really bad signings, AND he wanted to trade James Loney for Derrek Lee last year. Talk about excited Cubs fans, who hate Hendry for not pulling THAT trigger.

Zito will turn out to be a fair to decent 3 or 4 spot starter who is definitely over paid. But will Jones, Pierre, or Schmidt ever produce again? Doubtful. And in all three cases there was a definite trend toward the current level of suck, nor not even on the field enough to suck. So who will get more value? Don’t know, but I’m betting on the Giants.

Meanwhile the giants have some good young pitching, and the Dodgers have some fine young position players. Which is a better situation?

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

imho

I’d rather have the fine young position players. Hitting is more projectable than pitching. Pitchers suddenly “get it” at unpredictable times in their careers (David Cone comes to mind), and just as suddenly get dramatic injuries (Peavey, for example). Hitters do get injured, of course, but overall it’s safer to have the young hitting.

And Sabean has proven to be bad at his job. I’m surprised you can’t see that. If he were in my job, or yours, he’d have already been let go by now.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on May 22, 2008 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What makes you think that?

I know plenty of people who are amazingly bad at their jobs, yet are still gainfully employed.

Sabean must be union.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 22, 2008 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, actually I’d say at the management level, I’ve known far far more people who were bad at their job than good, and that covers a pretty wide variety of organizations and industries. It’s subtle, it’s somewhat vague, it involves getting other people to perform rather than performing oneself, and there’s no real blueprint to success.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 22, 2008 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn't say he wasn't

Just holding judgement. Our lack of hitters is only partially his fault.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nomah also.

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on May 22, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can’t recall if Nen’s option was mutual or not, to be honest. If it was it’s a mute point. If it wasn’t, then yes paying $22 or so million for someone who wasn’t able to take the field during those two years was a bad idea. Declining the option then offering to resign him to an incentive based deal that provided him with the organization’s medical staff and facilities for his rehab would have been the way to go. The Matheny deal was misconceived (for me) in many ways, just one being its direct link to the stupid ending of the stupid AJ saga. But placing over value on Catcher D and savvy and under value on offense was somewhat troublesome to me, too,

The Schmidt deal was probably the greatest deal of Sabes career, and more importantly the resigning of Schmidt was (other than Bonds) probably his best value re-sign or FA signing ever.

Nen and Hernandez were good trades but I don’t tend to give him that much credit for him because of the source and I’ll admit this is probably me unwilling to give too much credit. but in about a 6 month period in the winter of ‘98 the Marlins traded
Charles Johnson
Bobby Bonilla
Gary Sheffield
Jeff Conine
Jim Eisenreich
Edgar Renteria
Moises Alou
Devon White
Craig Counsell
Greg Zaun
Kevin Brown
Dennis Cook
Rob Nen

In return for all they got two prospects who turned into very good players: AJ Burnett and Derrek Lee. They got a month of Mike Piazza & Todd Zeile which in turn fetched Preston Wilson. That’s it. Three productive major leaguers for nearly an entire World Series roster full of stars. Oh yeah, they also got Bradon Looper and Pablo Ozuna. And then we descend: Ed Yarnall, Armonda Almanza, Manuel Barrios, Oscar Henriquez, Mark J.Johnson, Jesus Martinez, Mark Hutton, Rafael Medina, Steve Joff, Jesus Sanchez, Robert Stratton, Fletcher Bates, Scott Cromer, Joe Fontenot, Mike Paegeler, Mike Villano.

In other words, fleecing the Marlins in the winter of ‘98 doesn’t appear to have been the toughest task in the world. It was more a matter of beating the rush to stores before the sales aisles were empty.

I guess what I don’t understand about Sabean defenders is the notion that after 12 years, we really don’t know how to evaluate him. Or that we don’t have a solid handle know his beliefs, values, and MO. It seems to me that there’s plenty of evidence there. The famous “why we didn’t go after Vlad or Sheffield” quote is exactly the same logic in roster construction as he used when he traded Matt Williams (it’s better to have many useful parts than one star - and by the way, I’ve said many times over the years that that was a telling comment because the Williams trade was a success in exactly the opposite way Sabean intended it. It was a success because we got a rising star in exchange for a declining one, NOT because we got many useful pieces - but that logic of lots of mediocre pieces being more valuable than one impact player is intrinsic to Sabes belief system to this day). The evidence is there. I don’t like it. I don’t get any joy out of these failures. I simply am noting them and adding my belief that he won’t bring us back to success in the post-Bonds years.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 22, 2008 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

lots to wade through here

Pardon me for cherry picking, but here goes.

If these signings were in a vacuum, then yes the Giants’ would’ve signed Vlad and not cared about his back. However, there is only a certain amount of $, and you do have to fill out a 25 man roster. The reason the Williams trade was successful was first and foremost, Jeff Kent. However, the spare parts bin in that trade proved very useful. Tavarez seemed to thow every day in 1997, pitching a lot of valuable innings. Vizcaino played a solid SS, and hit the ball fairly well. The leftover cash went to sign Daryl Hamelton who was a key cog in the division winner that year. I almost forgot about Joe Roa, who from all accounts made great coffee for the bullpen. Point is, the trade worked on both levels.

by tyrannoman on May 22, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there's one thing wrong in that paragraph...

The Williams trade was successful was Jeff Kent. The reason it was made was Tavarez and Vizcaino I believe. Kent was more of a throw in.

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by WalrusMan on May 22, 2008 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

To sum up my Sabien thing

He has been party to some really good trades, and 1 really bad trade. The bad trade looks bad only in hind sight. At the time it looked good as we gave up a couple of minor leaguers and a choke artist, for a pretty good bat and a catcher.

The failure to get past the Marlins in 03, and subsequent failure to succeed when we were supposed to succeed have frustrated many people and generally they have gone for the head of Sabien. But the reason for the failures is organizational philosophy which Sabien is a “part” of, not the sole proprietor of.

So, we now have the re-build. The scouting/development crew has been overhauled and the draft strategy is (yet to be seen) supposedly changed. We are looking to move our veterans, and giving good time to some youngsters like Lewis and Bowker who are exciting. Meanwhile the draft pitchers strategy is paying off, and looks to have the potential to pay off for a few more years to come.

If we are not a .500+ team next year and in serious contention by 2010 and dominant for a few years after that, then I’ll start to call for Sabien’s head too, but meanwhile I’ll cut him some slack because he has not been the complete problem.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

1 Bad Outing + 1 Walk = Choke Artist?

Really? That’s how you evaluate baseball talent? On how they did their last two games? Really?

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 22, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Time to add “Sabien” to the Aurelia-Lowery-Lincicum list.

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by Natto on May 22, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t forget “Magowen”.

"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK

by Josh from Hollywood on May 22, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or “McGowen”

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on May 22, 2008 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought that was a sandwich…

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 23, 2008 2:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Alfonso!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
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by WalrusMan on May 23, 2008 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Forget if Denker turns out to be anything

It was a good move regardless. The Giants got a guy with some upside for a part they had absolutely no use for. That is a great trade.

Consider the move itself, not its results.

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on May 22, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I believe Nen’s options were player options, not club options. The Giants’ didn’t pick those up, Robbie did.

by tyrannoman on May 22, 2008 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can’t credit Sabes for trading Morris for Raj Davis, Morris should never have been signed in the first place.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 22, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was actually excited about the signing at the time. I figured he’d do well pitching at AT&T, but I was wrong. Oh, so wrong.

by tyrannoman on May 22, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Morris in 06

To go along with Schmidt, Cain, Lowry looked nice to me. I never got behind Jamey Wright.

by toofruss on May 22, 2008 12:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Let’s not forget Morris pitched pretty well that season, too. That was very much a “win now” type of move, and not a horrible one.

The disentigration of Morris was, IMO, unexpected.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 22, 2008 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d rather have Zack Morris. Imagine the misadventures we could have had!

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by Natto on May 22, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm, not sure what to say about that. The idea that “win-now” applied to ‘06 was fairly mistaken in the first place (as Sabean has been openly admitting this year).

But beyond that, Morris had had major shoulder surgery about a year before being signed after having really been rocked in the ‘04 postseason. Beyond that, his performance had been in pretty steady decline for several years (often as he battled elbow issues). His ERA+ had been in a pretty constant decline from his Cy Young Caliber year of 2001 when it was 137. In the years after that it was 117 (02), 109 (03), 90 (04), 103 (05) at which point the Giants signed him, and then 90 (06), 90 (07), 43 (08).

Finally, he actually pitched much better for us in ‘07 than in ‘06. He had an ERA+ of 102 for us in ‘07, though as many people here noted at the time he was vastly outperforming his peripherals in the first half of the year. His 71 ERA+ with the Pirates the last couple of months was more in line with where he should have been.

To sum up: bad signing, entirely predictable.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 22, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Debatable.

If Velez has the speed to steel a bag nearly at will (assuming he doesn’t get picked off), I’d rather be steal the base to get into scoring position rather than waste an out with a sac bunt. It gives you an extra out to bring the run in.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on May 21, 2008 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

that works if velez stole prior to omar fouling out

it was obvious during omar’s at bat that velez was unable to pickup the pitchers moves…or else, he woulda gone

and again i note….how is he gonna learn big league pitchers moves playing in the pcl?

by bacci40 on May 21, 2008 6:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's not just the pick off moves

it’s basic game situations from all over the field. I’m sure that you and I would’t make the kinds of mistakes he’s making. Making crazy throws long after a safe call, being thrown out at third tyring to strech a triple at the worst possible time, etc. These are the things he needs to work on in Fresno. After his head is right, he can come back and dominate.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 6:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

with a lefty on the mound

you bunt him to 2nd and have him steal 3rd

by Azmanz on May 21, 2008 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Denker and Dodd
Denker, who becomes the youngest Giant at age 22, didn’t appear to be bound for the Majors when the season began. He hit .184 in 25 games with Double-A Connecticut. Yet, he was promoted to Triple-A Fresno after Burriss was summoned to the Giants in late April and regained his stroke, batting .315 in 17 games.

“Being in 30-degree weather every day doesn’t help,” Denker said, referring to his Connecticut stint. “I really didn’t feel like hitting when I was there.”

SF, please do not re-up.

by wilriv21 on May 21, 2008 3:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

if you go by sabean's recent comments, as well as the defenders current manager

the chance of reupping seems slim to none

less to do with the weather, and more to do with the configuration of the field and the lack of any real fan support

ct could care less that the giants are there (give or take 2-3 peeps) if the org finds another home…they are gone

by bacci40 on May 21, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but

The “didn’t feel like hitting” comment actually kind of bothers me. One could argue that it shows either unearned cockiness, or a lazy work ethic.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on May 21, 2008 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting point

I hadn’t considered that point of view. I was just thinking he was referring to the bees in the bathandle, and the general discomfort.

by tyrannoman on May 21, 2008 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a gamer

Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!

by Mr Scruff on May 21, 2008 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would interpret that not as lazy work ethic

When its freezing cold out side, it often makes you not feel like going out and playing your sport – which is going to effect your performance. I can understand that.

People are only human, and when the elements get shitty it can certainly distract you from the game. I sure as hell wouldn’t feel like playing baseball in 30 degree weather.

If your at the plate and your fingers are stiff and aching from the cold, it’s going to affect your performance.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 22, 2008 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

30 -degree weather shouldnt be the problem

what, 12 teams in the EL? if he wants to complain about the ballpark fine…aside from that….

by slojoe on May 21, 2008 7:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Denker’s only 22?

Jeez, I just kind of assumed he was at leats 25.

This changes everything for me.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 22, 2008 2:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too young for you?

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by Natto on May 22, 2008 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dr. Denkenstein

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on May 21, 2008 4:03 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

You’re clearly not treating this with the seriousness it deserves.

by Dan from NM on May 21, 2008 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clearly Rosario was the option here.

What do you mean bias? Not on the 40 man roster? Another over promotion? Piffle I say!

Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!

by Mr Scruff on May 21, 2008 7:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Rosario (and Denker)

It would be entertaining to see just how low Bocock’s average could go at Ct. And if Rosario is hovering around .300 at Ct., what would he do at Fresno? They’ve got these assignments backward. As for Denker, I can’t imagine he sees this as toying around with his career. It takes luck as well as skill to make it to the Majors and I’m sure he’s happy to have his card punched even if it means long stretches on the bench.

by NearestNorwich on May 21, 2008 10:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

as would we all. I’m sure Denker is walking on air at this point.

by tyrannoman on May 22, 2008 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

That would make ONE giant who can take a walk.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 22, 2008 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

http://www.instantrimshot.com/

All-Father Watch: 1.16 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 23 Ks in 23 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 22, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's pretty bad

It’s pretty bad when a team has already sent down one player who clearly wasn’t major-league ready (Brian Bocock), only to send down another (Velez), only to replace him with yet a third (Denker) and still leave up yet a fourth (Manny Burriss).

At least only Velez wasn’t close to being entirely predictable. Eugenio merely looked to be not very good moreso than not ready.

by sharksrog on May 22, 2008 2:39 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I only agree with Sending Velez down

If you insist on playing Durham. If it was entirely up to me, I would sit Durham and continue to play Velez every day.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 22, 2008 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I say play Durham 3 or 4 out of 5 days. He needs to show he can play and get just enough rest not to get worn down. You aren’t going to trade Durham if he does nothing but sit on the bench.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 22, 2008 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh ye of little faith…

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by Natto on May 22, 2008 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I notice you aren’t even advertising him as your son in your sig anymore!!

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 22, 2008 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s only until I can think of something witty/clever/lame to write.

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by Natto on May 22, 2008 8:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Halfway through this season, he will only be owed $3.75m, and is a FA at the end of the year. Now it makes no sense to keep him intentionally, as it would be insane to offer him arbitration, and even if that happened, no team would sign him before the deadline.

However: at $3.75m or so for the rest of the year, with no further commitment, Durham really might make sense for several teams. The Mets, White Sox, Rockies, Angels, Twins… not to mention Sabean’s pal Colletti with the Dodgers. Other teams might end up with an injury at 2B.

Will he bring back some kind of future star? No, but with this team, every little bit of prospect helps.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on May 23, 2008 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

On what?

On what do you base your comment, Fair Weather Fan? I see no indication that Ray will return to .220. I agree with you that he is fortunate to be hitting close to .300, but in order for his batting average to return to .220 even with his present low-end strikeout and home run rates, his BABIP would need to drop to about .260.

It fell even lower than that last season, but his career BABIP is .308. Line drive percentage correlates most closely to BABIP, and after dropping to just 13.4% last season, Ray’s 19.8% line drive percentage this year is slightly above his career 19.0% rate.

What leads you to so strongly believe that Ray will return to .220 that you just blithely make such a statement?

by sharksrog on May 23, 2008 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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