What Happened to the youth?

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 8:46 AM PDT

Is it just me, or does it seem like the veterans have been creeping back into the lineup ?

A few weeks ago, the lineup card would have looked something like this

Lewis

Velez

Castillo

Bocock

Bowker

Rowand

Winn

Molina

Avg Age: 28

Yesterday, it looked like this:

Winn

Aurilia

Castillo

Vizquel

Durham

Ortmeier

Rowand

Molina

Avg Age: 33

Now, I realize that these two examples are in many ways two extremes. However, I have started to feel that the veterans are playing more and more - and that we are seeing less youth. I'm sure this is performance based (Velez, Vizquel) but I'm not sure that is the right approach.

Coincidentally, this team went from toying with .500 to two 5 game losing streaks this month and a trajectory that has us slated for the #1 pick.

It seemed to me that when we had all the kids playing, we either won in some exciting fashion or lost in a heartbreaking way. Now that we've got a much older lineup, it seems that we are just consistantly insufficient.

Thoughts? Just my imagination?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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The older players have been producing lately.

Therefore, they play.

by WTF on May 19, 2008 8:57 AM PDT 0 recs

Producing a 3-11 record.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 19, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up 0 recs

TANK WITH THE OLDER PLAYERS!

LOL

Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?

by shikantaza on May 19, 2008 9:01 AM PDT 0 recs

Velez has played himself out of the lineup, Lewis is hurt, and Bowker is being platooned.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on May 19, 2008 9:03 AM PDT 0 recs

Lewis is hurt?

where did you hear that? I thought it was just Bochy’s stubborn L/R platoon.

Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com

by leftymalo on May 19, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up 0 recs

his foot is hurt, I don’t know how serious

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on May 19, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up 0 recs

We also don't steal bases anymore

by superk1ng on May 19, 2008 9:05 AM PDT 0 recs

I would say the losing is a result of

all non-Lincecum pitching crapping the bed over the past few weeks.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on May 19, 2008 9:10 AM PDT 0 recs

We just lost 2-0 and 3-1 this weekend in two non-Lincecum games (though Zito’s performance was painful to watch, admittedly).

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 19, 2008 9:49 AM PDT up 0 recs

Huh?

I heard something along the lines of 13 – 8.

Aaron "Swag" Rowand

by victor frankenstein on May 19, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

Amazingly enough

there were 3 games this weekend and BOTH of you are right!

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'm not trying to say that is why we are losing

I’m just saying the team has seemed to transition back to a veteran laden station to station team (the no steals anymore thing) and as a result is kinda blah to watch.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 9:22 AM PDT 0 recs

I’ve mentioned this myself a couple of times. Slowly but surely the kids are playing less and less. I don’t buy that the kids are playing themselves out of the lineup and the veterans are producing. This is still only about 6 weeks into the season, it’s not enough time to have given up on young players as yet. Eugenio Velez should play everyday for a month before we give up on him. The only kids playing these days are Lewis and Bowker, and both of them are being platooned. The Giants “youth movement” is a lie. Don’t believe the bullshit that is being served to us on a platter by Sabean and Bochy is an excuse for losing.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on May 19, 2008 9:23 AM PDT 0 recs

Word.

Ryan Howard is producing worse at the plate then Velez. Has he played himself out of the lineup ? Plenty of players around the league who are still in an early season slump. Part of the deal with this season is playing these guys through the up’s and downs and seeing what happens. If you yank them as soon as they hit a down – what is the point?

It is still too early in the season for anyone to have done so. Velez has not been given a long enough look and that is what I was very afraid was going to happen. Play the kids after the first 2 weeks, and then the instant hook.

As stated above, the only youth getting regular play time at this point is Lewis and Bowker. That is not a youth movement, that’s 25% of the team on the field. And even then, they are getting platooned.

And there are young position players sitting on the bench.

I’m starting to feel a little bit bait and switched.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 9:31 AM PDT up 0 recs

I'm also extremely worried

That if Roberts wasn’t on the DL, if Lewis had an 0-4 one night, we wouldn’t see him for a week.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 9:32 AM PDT up 0 recs

Yep

Roberts being on the DL is the only reason Lewis got in the lineup to start with. Rowands ribs whilst Roberts was on the DL is also the only reason Bowker is here too. Bocock and Burriss only played because Vizquel was injured. Basically the youth movement was always a lie, it was out of circumstance, it was never from design.

Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!

by Mr Scruff on May 19, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up 0 recs

Howard vs. Velez is a pretty bad comparison.

really.

by WTF on May 19, 2008 9:46 AM PDT up 0 recs

As Samir once said in Office Space...

That is horrible… Horrible, this comparison.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 19, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up 0 recs

I'm just saying

That just because a player starts the year hitting poorly doesn’t mean he is done.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 10:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

The difference is that Velez can’t be “done” because he was never ready. He has never done anything to be worthy of a shot. He needs to be in AAA.

by Evan on May 19, 2008 10:15 AM PDT up 0 recs

Dustrin Pedroia

Hit .191 in limited ABs in the 2006 season and .182 the first month of last season for the redsox, but they stuck with him anyway and let him work through it and he ended up as the ROTY. Not saying Velez can be that, but you can’t bench him after a month.

What I find hilarious about this is the fact that redsox are trying to work in youth WHILE contending, whereas we’re struggling to do it on one of the worst teams in the league.

by superk1ng on May 19, 2008 10:26 AM PDT up 0 recs

I don’t think anyone is vouching for benching Velez. Simply that he should either be played to see if he has what it takes, or to move him to AAA so that he can get consistent playing time, unlike what he’s getting up here.

by withclubsauce on May 19, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up 0 recs

Dustin Pedroia had over 700 plate appearances in AAA at that point, Velez has 21.
Pedroia was also much younger, his performance was much better, and he could actually play second base.

But he’s a better comp than Ryan Howard, I’ll give you that.

by Evan on May 19, 2008 10:35 AM PDT up 0 recs

Yeah, and that.

by withclubsauce on May 19, 2008 10:45 AM PDT up 0 recs

Maybe so, but my point was a little different

Velez is basically any of the “young guys” on this team.

we are a BAD team…there is NO reason why aurillia and crew should be taking AB’s away from these guys. There is NO point, they are not going to be apart of whatever world series push we make in the future…we’re just wasting everybody’s time by playing them.

Don't even mention trade value because Aurillia doesn't have it, neither does durham(a 34 year old second basemen with no range or hitting ability) or roberts. Winn has marginal trade value....if we somehow traded him, it would only be for salary dump, we're not going to get any real prospects for him. Same thing happend last year, we were supposed to trade all these guys but we got NOTHING and because of that, it ended up being a complete waste of a year for Frandsen. I have a feeling we're going to next spring still not knowing what we have in schierholtz and crew because we wasted this year playing the sh!tty vets.

by superk1ng on May 19, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up 0 recs

my point got cut off for some reason

basically I said, we’re just going to end up wasting this year for schierholtz and go in to next spring not knowing what we have with any of this young guys all over again. We’re too busy trying to up these guys’ trade value not realizing that they don’t have any.

by superk1ng on May 19, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up 0 recs

I agree

I was simply agreeing with WTF that comparing Ryan Howard – who has an established major league track record to fall back on – to Eugenio Velez – who doesn’t – is an awful comparison to make, saying nothing about the many obvious differences in their game.

I think we’d be better served playing the youth than the many many vets still littering this team.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 19, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up 0 recs

I agree with your reasoning about being a bad team, using the year to find out what we have, etc. But you have to draw a distinction between young players who have some reasonable chance of success and those who don’t.

This is what’s so frustrating about the Giants’ new scheme to overpromote their prospects. If (I should probably say “when”) these players go on to fail, we still don’t “know what we have.” We haven’t learned a thing. All we know is that they’re not such transcendently great prospects that the normal developmental curve doesn’t apply.

by Evan on May 19, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up 0 recs

Pedroia is the definition of scrappiness

Don’t forget that he also went to a really ASU for 3 years and picked up some awards:

2003 First Team All-American (Louisville Slugger)
2003 D1 First Team All-American (ABCA)
2003 Pac-10 Co-Player of the Year
2003 NCAA Defensive Player of the Year
2004 Golden Spikes Award Finalist
2004 First-Team Baseball America and USA Today All-American

Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on May 19, 2008 10:59 AM PDT up 0 recs

*really good college at ASU

Why did it cut off?

Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on May 19, 2008 11:00 AM PDT up 0 recs

Velez

Didn’t hit particularly well in the Minors, either. He’d probably be much better off playing in Fresno right now than what he’s doing right now.

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on May 19, 2008 7:54 PM PDT up 0 recs

fairweather,

Did you really compare Ryan Howard to Eugeno Velez? Really? OK, just checking.

by tyrannoman on May 19, 2008 11:46 AM PDT up 0 recs

Sometimes

I hate the internet. Did I say they were the same quality of player? No.

Did I say they were having slow starts to the season? Yes.

Did I use Ryan Howard as an example of how a slow start to a season does not mean the player is worthless, and how a player could still be massively under performing 6 weeks in? Yes.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 12:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

Like I'd said above...

It’s all about a track record versus no track record. What part of Howard’s career would make anyone think he’s worthless?

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 19, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up 0 recs

And yet

sometimes star players, even MVP caliber players, simply stop being good. It’s probably not happening to Howard right now, but it could be. He could be pulling a Juan Samuel befour our eyes. It was only two seasons ago that Travis Hafner was a legitimate MVP candidate, and the very next year he went into a decline that now looks suspiciously like it could be permanent (of course, there might be other suspicions there as well, but I’ll leave that to others). Probably Howard is letting the contract issue play on his mind, but there are all kinds of ways to disappear off the map.

This is just to say I think Fairweather is right … sample size is sample size. Especially as in this case the only other candidate for the position is the utterly and completely worthless Ray Durham who at this point is reduced to doing absolutely nothing to help a team win.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on May 19, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

Ray Durham has a .375 OBP right now.

That’s helpful.

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on May 19, 2008 3:55 PM PDT up 0 recs

Nobody appreciates Ray Durham.

SAVE_US.RAY
Nattowear: now featuring new crap!

by Natto on May 19, 2008 4:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

except me.

SAVE_US.RAY
Nattowear: now featuring new crap!

by Natto on May 19, 2008 4:06 PM PDT up 0 recs

Don't worry

He will suck it up the next week or two and be back to .220

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

Hey

Suck it YOUR FACE. Aw yeah, good burn.

SAVE_US.RAY
Nattowear: now featuring new crap!

by Natto on May 19, 2008 5:02 PM PDT up 0 recs

I think Fairweather needs a healthy helping of Neosporin right about now!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 20, 2008 2:19 AM PDT up 0 recs

His recent success (as of last season), track record, and youth would make most people think, “Ummmm… Maybe he’ll work through it.” So even if he IS disappearing before our very eyes, I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone who thinks it would be a bad idea to let him play it out.

And I certainly am not saying FWF is wrong. I’m saying that there’s a very distinct difference between Velez and Howard, and it has nothing to do with the speed/power difference.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 19, 2008 4:29 PM PDT up 0 recs

Of course there is a huge difference

Howard strikes out way more!

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 4:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

Another huge difference:

Howard’s .414 SLG to Velez’s .344.

Now, before you jump on another of Howard’s shortcomings, consider this: Howard has a proven track record that indicates he may turn things around, while Velez does not. I’m not saying that just because Velez doesn’t have a proven track record doesn’t mean that he can’t turn things around, though. What I am saying is that comparing Howard to Velez just because both are struggling and saying that since Howard gets to work out his slump so Velez should is not fair. As a result of Howard’s track record, Howard has a longer leash to work out of his slump than Velez does.

That is why the comparison is a bad one.

Still, I do agree on the fact that the youth should be allowed to play over the veterans, who have done nothing but contribute to the current losing streak …

by withclubsauce on May 19, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up 0 recs

I completely understand your point

Mine was merely that even great players, like Howard, are capable of starting a season Ice Cold.

As such, Velez starting this season unspectacularly doesn’t really mean a whole lot.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 7:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

Mine was merely that even great players, like Howard, are capable of starting a season Ice Cold.

And Barry Zito right?

Hah, I kid.

by withclubsauce on May 19, 2008 8:22 PM PDT up 0 recs

Ort looked lost at the plate Sunday. Rustiness or crappiness? Since he plays so rarely, we can’t tell.
Aurilia looks lost at the plate much of the time. I think he guesses pitches to make up for having no reflexes. If he guesses fastball over the plate and is right, he occassionally hits a HR. With Roberts out, Aurilia is the one who depresses me when I see his name in the lineup.
I agree, Ort, Velez and Lewis got to play more. If they play themselves off the team by, say, July, then at least they got a trial. In Lewis’ case, he has played himself onto the team at this point.
FP Santangelo said real clearly that Velez is finished as a second baseman. Mostly over lack of baseball smarts as I remember. If that is the team’s judgment, then he seems to be hanging around to pinch hit.
So I want to see much less of Aurilia; Winn and Rowand taking days off regularly; less platooning; Ort getting more starts or getting released; Velez getting starts at some position.

adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson

by foothillsfan on May 19, 2008 9:56 AM PDT 0 recs

I don't mind Aurilia

i just wish he would play 3B, and then that way a Bowker/Ort platoon would play at 1B, and Lewis would get a reasonable chance to hit against leftys. I’m not a fan of Jose Castillo at this point, and I dearly wish Kevin Frandsen could’ve stayed healthy,

by tyrannoman on May 19, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up 0 recs

What I am afraid of

Is this is the effect of Sabean thinking we can “contend”.

“Crap, this team isn’t as horrible as we thought, and now we’ve got Omar back… If we get him back in there and Durham get’s hot… “

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 10:10 AM PDT 0 recs

That was my biggest concern after seeing that Sabean article.

I went on record as to hoping we’d have a good losing streak or two to help cool Sabean’s jets on the whole “playoff contention” notion. Sadly, I may have jinxed this team or something, because right after saying that, the Giants started to REALLY suck.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 19, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up 0 recs

Where have all the young players gone
long time passing

by wilriv21 on May 19, 2008 10:15 AM PDT 0 recs

Good teams picked them, every one,
When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on May 19, 2008 1:11 PM PDT up 0 recs

I think is simpler then the contention talk. The Vets are "healthy" so now they must play.

If I was optimistic I would say Sabean was hoping the interest Williams in so Savvy Veteran-ness. But we all know Sabean refuses to share any of that.

But I get what your saying. My wife was asking my I was barely paying attention to 2/3 of the Giants P.A.s. She does not even like baseball and it was that obvious.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 19, 2008 10:56 AM PDT 0 recs

I actually didn't even bother watching the games this weekend.

I just checked the score periodically on my phone. That last loss to Houston really took the wind out of me.

It’s still out. With the team playing poorly and really only the veterans playing – there is little reason to watch.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 11:05 AM PDT up 0 recs

I am guilty of the same thing.

I see the Line up of the Hacking Dead ( insert favorite remark involving Big heads and " Braainnss" here) and I head I find something else and check back in later.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 19, 2008 4:07 PM PDT up 0 recs

Interesting stat:

Prior to this homestand, the Giants had played 35 games and had 39 stolen bases.

During their 10-game homestand, they had 3 stolen bases.

Perhaps not coincidentally, they went 3-7. Yeah, the relief pitching blew, but that’s a pretty damning stat. More stolen bases=disrupting the opposing pitcher and getting yourself into scoring position. Hard to say whether the SB rate plunged because of the veteran lineup or other factors, but it sure seems likely, don’t it?

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on May 19, 2008 11:50 AM PDT 0 recs

This comment in no way supports putting Rich Aurillia in the linuep

Dude, the argument that they went 3-7 because they stole 3 bases instead of 9 is mind boggling.

That being said, I think that Velez should be sent to AAA if he’s not going to play up here. I would be shopping Ray Durham like a man possessed. Actually with Durham hitting .300 – I would BENCH him now! Don’t want him to get cold and screw up his trade value.

I have to say, that I was kind of indifferent to Velez vs. Durham… but I looked at his minor league numbers and projections, and he’s at least a B- prospect in the vein of Ortmeier or Lewis. I would let him play.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 19, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

I didn’t mean to argue the lack of stolen bases was THE reason they went 3-7, or if they had stolen more everything would have magically been better. (I’m not drinking the “Speed and Defense!” kool-aid.) Obviously, there are a lot of factors here. That said, there’s a perception that lately this team is backsliding towards the veteran-laden, station-to-station ball that they played last year which so many of us found unwatchable. It’s boring, and they lose a lot.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on May 19, 2008 12:31 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yup.

A lot of the stats in this last homestand support the slide, as well.

Average age, drop in stolen bases, etc.

IMO the drop in stolen bases doesn’t only mean that they stole 6 less bases than they should have – it indicates that the attitude of play has changed. Instead of manufacturing runs the team is now standing around waiting to get knocked in. That is a recipe for disaster with this team.

I think the main reason for the recent record is the pitching, but I feel overall that the team as a whole is reverting to last years form, and to what a lot of us were afraid that this year was going to be.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 19, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up 0 recs