Interleague Play

It was neat at first, but now it's overdone.

Pretty soon we will end up like the NBA or NFL and the leagues won’t mean anything.

blah. Maybe once every few years would be neat, keep the mystique alive.

But having teams play across leagues in any other game than the WS is, IMO, way to integrated for my old fashioned tastes.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on May 16, 2008 1:36 PM PDT 0 recs

It might be time to start pulling out those AJ/Barrett motivational posters.

Make me proud again Hen

by AndYourBirdCanSing on May 16, 2008 1:37 PM PDT 0 recs

Aginn' it.

At least in the current format. Playing what are seemingly random teams each year screws up the year for everyone. How would you have felt if you had to play the NL East a couple of years ago and your opponent had to play the NL West? The NL West was clearly the worst division in baseball and to play teams from that division gave you a huge statistical advantage vs playing the Mets/Braves/etc. What I’d like to see is a bit involved but it would make things better in my mind. Realign the divisions. 2 leagues, 3 divisions each, 5 teams each. Then, play a series against every team in the other league plus your schedule against your own league. Every other year, switch home/away for that specific series.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 1:38 PM PDT 0 recs

That means

that you’d have 15 interleague series per season per team, instead of the current 4 or 5. You’d want that?

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on May 16, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yes.

That at least would be even for all teams. You would get to see every team in the MLB, see the stars that are only around for a few years. If you get the bad luck you may not see a star in his peak 3 years. You’ll see his rookie season or his decline.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up 0 recs

I agree with above.

Also, that means each league would have an odd number of teams. This means someone is playing interleague all the time, or you have to jigger the schedule to have one team off every day in each league. That’s a scheduling nightmare.

Honestly, I say do the city rivalries every year, and “normal” interleague every two or three. Keeps it fresh, while keeping the inter-city rivalries that are pretty popular.

by Faux on May 16, 2008 2:29 PM PDT up 0 recs

I don't get the...

OH EM GE ODD NUMBER OF TEAMS! You just need to yes jigger the schedule. I’m sure in today’s age of computers they can figure out some schedule that will work. That or take teams out and have 4 team divisions or add teams and have 6 team divisions. I just think the divisions need to be even and not range from 4 – 6 teams.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up 0 recs

Response.

1 – Yes, computers are wonderful. I’m sure a schedule could be figured out. How good that schedule would be, with that kind of constraint, is debatable. They already have to fit 162 games into ~180 days, with rest and travel included, and some extra time on the end for travel days and such. Then, after that, you have to get all the MLB owners, the FO, and the players union to agree to it. It’s a much tougher job than most people realize.

2 – Given #1, this is not feasible. You either have to expand the MLB by 6 teams to get 6/div/league, or subtract 6 teams to get 4/div/league.

The only doable alternative is to move 2 teams from the AL to the NL, and then you would have 4/div in the AL, and 6/div in the NL. I would vote the Mariners and Detroit/Twins, just because they are not in the same media market as a current NL team, and would drop right into the current west/central. Move an AL team west (let’s go Vegas Rays!), and you have a new central team in the AL. You get 4/4/4 and 6/6/6.

Of course, the most likely alternative would be to add two teams to the AL (I’m thinking Las Vegas and New Orleans), and have both teams set up for a 5/5/6. I think this would be the best option, but I don’t understand the benefit of making every division equal in teams.

by Faux on May 16, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

Or take away two teams

There are plenty of schedule anomalies as it is, with 15-day August stretches with no games off, 15 game roadtrips, etc.

I still say: eliminate two teams. Florida and Tampa were my vote, although they’ve now built up their systems quite well.

Adding two teams would make for more home run record chases, which in the post steroid era might be a good thing. No love for Portland?

by natteringnabob on May 17, 2008 9:08 AM PDT up 0 recs

It doesn’t really matter to me. Since I live in the Bay Area, I can theoretically see any team in the league play live in any given season. Just go to the Coliseum to see the AL teams and I’m set. The novelty of “wow we get the Royals this year!” is lost on me because so f’ing what, I’ve already seen the A’s play them twice. etc.

I would neither vote to ban it nor vote to keep it. I’m staunchly meh on the subject. I did vote “yes” on Grant’s poll (pole?) because I don’t actively oppose it. I guess if I voted “no” it would seem like I hate the idea. Which I do not.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 16, 2008 1:40 PM PDT 0 recs

I don't know...

Watching an A’s broadcast is like getting your teeth pulled. I’m just not a very big fan of their announcing/game calling/etc.

by sfgfan on May 16, 2008 2:45 PM PDT up 0 recs

We lucked out on the better Kuiper brother.

Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on May 16, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up 0 recs

I miss Bill King. :(

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 16, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up 0 recs

I spent a summer with my Grandma, and her Mother once

If I ever want to re-live THAT experience I just turn on Ray Fossi.

GAWD, that is PAINFUL.

And A’s fans wonder why no one pays attention to them.

"Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist."
-Crash Davis

"Cain, Lincecum, and Sanchez coverted me to Anti-Crashist Fascism in 08."
-Toofruss

by toofruss on May 16, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up 0 recs

+1

All but 6 teams or so have another team in the opposite league within driving distance for the motivated (cf. the “regional rivalry”). If someone is so hot and bothered to see the White Sox, is it that hard to get on BART? Interleague games always seem like exhibitions to me.

by natteringnabob on May 17, 2008 9:10 AM PDT up 0 recs

I’m OK with Interleague, I hate the way the All-Star game is handled.

Bay City Ball

by xanthan on May 16, 2008 1:44 PM PDT 0 recs

Yeah, that

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 16, 2008 1:53 PM PDT up 0 recs

For what it’s worth, I thought “this time it counts” was the stupidest this EVAH.
BUT… the only ASG I have ever paid ANY attention to was the 2003 one where frickin’ GAGNE blew it. I was sure we would make it to the WS and lose again because of lack of home field.

Well, that got Jose Cruzed. Oh, and I haven’t cared about an ASG since, after all – it’s not like it will effect the Giants home field advantage…

BOY, I just looked up the 2003 play offs. WTF was I thinking.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 16, 2008 4:17 PM PDT up 0 recs

Agin’ for schedule balance, and general stat schmeering reasons (how can you have an MVP of the AL if 1/5th of the games are against the NL?).

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on May 16, 2008 1:45 PM PDT 0 recs

I poo on your schedule balance! Not every team plays at the same level every game, anyway, so even a balanced schedule is only mock fair.

But whatever, I’m a fan of sports mimicking life, and life’s not fair and I get annoyed when people expect it to be. MAN UP and play your schedule instead of complaining about it! That’s my motto!

Sorry, that sounded WAY more attacking than I mean. Try to consider my comment in as passive a way as possible. I wasn’t trying to get on you, zenbits.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up 0 recs

MAN UP, Howie!

Quit apologizing! Be tough! Rattle that saber!

All-Father Watch: 1.21 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 22 Ks in 22 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 16, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

+1

Howie, after those potshots from Grant, I think you should be a little more pissed off like E (or E-Ticket). I poo on your passivity, but I agree with your take what you get schedule idea. I’m almost for picking ping pong balls out of a bin to determine schedule. MLB Vegas style!!

by WilliamVanLandingham on May 16, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up 0 recs

But my saber doesn't rattle

It ROCKS!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up 0 recs

That's what she said...

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on May 16, 2008 4:46 PM PDT up 0 recs

Also

I’d like to say that apologizing is manly. Whining is not.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yeah...

...I just bet you’d like to say that.

All-Father Watch: 1.21 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 22 Ks in 22 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 16, 2008 11:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

Balderdash, I Say, To These American League Toughs!

I do not like this “inter-league play”, sir, now that you ask. It will be a cool day in Hades indeed when I acknowledge Ban Johnson and his “rag-tag” assemblage of outfits, misfits, and nitwits in cities like Cleveland, Detroit, and Baltimore as equals to the mighty National League. What say thee, men?

people hate you, but why do they hate you? because the are jealous!

by satyricrash on May 16, 2008 1:56 PM PDT 0 recs

I say...

...that women shall have the vote before the American League can equal the Nationals!

All-Father Watch: 1.21 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 22 Ks in 22 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 16, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up 0 recs

Outrage!

The word around the saloon is that this modern incarnation of these Orioles of Baltimore does not even employ the highly effective “Baltimore Chop” as their National League namesake did under the on-field leadership of Mr. McGraw. Shame be brought to Baltimore! Harumph! Harumph!

people hate you, but why do they hate you? because the are jealous!

by satyricrash on May 16, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up 0 recs

The new frontier

Next stop: pants.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 16, 2008 2:34 PM PDT up 0 recs

You've already got pantsuits...

Why can’t we keep pants?

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 2:49 PM PDT up 0 recs

Share

Nobody’s saying you can’t wear skirts. The right ones are really comfortable.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 16, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up 0 recs

You mean..

Kilts?

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up 0 recs

I must be getting old

I can remember looking up skirts and almost never seeing a penis.

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on May 16, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up 0 recs

Frankly, I can’t remember the last time I looked up a skirt and didn’t see a penis.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up 0 recs

Sure, but that’s just how your memory operates.

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on May 16, 2008 3:57 PM PDT up 0 recs

I hate AL baseball in general

Never could ‘stomach’ the Designated Fat Guy.

by Lars The Wanderer on May 16, 2008 1:57 PM PDT 0 recs

Prince Fielder?

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on May 16, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up 0 recs

Ryan Howard?

Carlos Lee?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 17, 2008 10:29 PM PDT up 0 recs

I'd rather see them play the White Sox once every 5 years

Than see them play the Pirates for the umpteenth time every year.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on May 16, 2008 1:59 PM PDT 0 recs

Get rid of the DH

by wilriv21 on May 16, 2008 1:59 PM PDT 0 recs

I oppose the DH as well. It puts “REAL” baseball teams(NL types) at a disadvantage. NL rosters are not built to have a DH and often carry extra pitchers. Now, the relative value of David Ortiz vs. Keichi Yabu is obvious. But, even when dealing with teams using less spectacular players at DH(Jose Vidro), the matchups still favor the AL. What’s the difference between Zito batting or CC Sabathia? Johan Santana or Erik Bedard? Besides, if everybody(AL types) loves the DH so much, how come there aren’t any in the HOF? Exactly.

The best argument for the DH is that it’s gimmicky cool. Like if AFC teams had to have two QBs on the field on offense or in the NBA, Eastern teams had to a use one player on another player’s shoulders to play center. It’s kind of neat, but also, pretty dumb.

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on May 16, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up 0 recs

Yea.

And then you get the arguments that the AL teams are put in a disadvantage because where do they play their DH when they can’t use him as a DH? First base? But….we don’t have a glove for him!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up 0 recs

Quibbles.

There aren’t any DHs in the HOF because it hasn’t been around for long enough for HOF players to fill that role. You’re just now seeing the Thomas and Ortiz types falling into that role. All-hit former 1B are now DHing from the start instead. That’s adaptation to a changing environment.

It’s not just a gimmick unless you want to view it that way. I think it adds a difference to the game that has to be adjusted to, just like raising and lowering the mound, and even later on the power surge (and its’ recent retraction). I like that the two leagues have different rules, because it makes them unique. In the NFL, can you tell me what team belongs to what conference? And more importantly, why it matters? Both leagues have the same rules. I think it takes away from the uniqueness that baseball has when the postseason or interleague rolls around.

by Faux on May 16, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up 0 recs

The DH has been around for more than 30 years and it’s JUST NOW starting to develop HOFers at the position? As someone else might say, I poo on that notion. The best players can hit and field. Just like the best pitchers are starters and the not as good ones are relivers. How many starters are in the HOF vs. relivers? You can’t compare the mound thing because that was a league wide change, even though most parks vary on the exact heights as it is.

I thnk it’s gimmicky. You like the gimmicky nature of it. That’s fine.

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on May 16, 2008 4:56 PM PDT up 0 recs

You could call anything a gimmick, if you wanted to.

Changing mound height? Gimmick. Regulating ball hardness (ala Coors)? Gimmick. Requiring managers to wear team uniforms? Gimmick. Short porches in RF? Gimmick.

Do you realize that some of those affect how the game is played, and some don’t? Maybe there’s a difference there. But if you want to spew “gimmick” at everything you don’t like, without realizing some of your “gimmicks” matter more than others, and add different elements to and change strategies in the game, then that’s a problem with perception on your part.

It doesn’t look like you are interested in learning, so I shouldn’t even bring up that some relievers are better than starters. See Papelbon/Rivera/KRod vs I dunno, maybe Zito would be the best example on the starter side? Maybe some people are better at focusing more intently in short bursts, that doesn’t make them worse pitchers. Sprinters win gold medals just like marathoners.

And what do you know, it took a while after relief pitchers started to be used for them to get into the HOF. About 30-40 years for modern relievers, amazingly (Sutter was the first, BTW).

If you ask me, a “gimmick” is something like the manager uniform, or splash homers. It doesn’t affect the game, it just gives something for the fans to do in their spare time. If it affects the game, maybe it’s a little more than a gimmick.

by Faux on May 16, 2008 8:14 PM PDT up 0 recs

Maybe soon?

There might be a DH in the HOF soon, and his name is Edgar Martinez of the Seattle Mariners. Not first-ballot, but lots of his offensive numbers are extremely impressive. Depends on whether the voters are willing to accept the fact he didn’t field for most of his career.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on May 16, 2008 4:22 PM PDT up 0 recs

But that’s the thing. As good as Martinez’s numbers are, any non-DH who has similar numbers deserves to be in more because they actually played in the field. Now, The Big Hurt and Papi will probably and most likely get into the HOF, but 30 years is a long time to have a position with no players in the HOF.

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on May 16, 2008 4:50 PM PDT up 0 recs

Edgar Martinez

played 563 games at 3b. If you are going to penalise him for DHing, then you need to give him credit for playing 3b. Most guys who put up the numbers he put up are either corner OFs or 1b.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on May 17, 2008 10:33 PM PDT up 0 recs

Oh and for the record

Dusty is responsible for us not winning the World Series in ‘02.

AJ is responsible for us not winning the World Series in ‘04.

Any suggestions as to ‘06 (to stick with the multiples of 2)? I think it’s time for Sabean to be acknowleged.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on May 16, 2008 2:01 PM PDT 0 recs

Fer It

Especially, if it increases the chances I will be treated to a top notch broadcasting crew on MLB tv like the Sox have. If any of you have not heard The Hawk and DJ, you are really missing out on something quite amazing.

As long as the mix gets mixed a little, and we get to see all the teams, I guess it keeps an new feel to it. I know a lot of Giants fans went to Boston last year. It will be interesting to see how many Sox fans are here this weekend.

by out machine on May 16, 2008 2:05 PM PDT 0 recs

"You can put it on the board, YES!"

by wilriv21 on May 16, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up 0 recs

"He Gone!"

http://heavethehawk.com/index.php?entry=8

by out machine on May 16, 2008 2:19 PM PDT up 0 recs

I hope you are kidding.

Hawk is the Plan Nine from Outer Space of broadcasting.

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on May 16, 2008 4:16 PM PDT up 0 recs

Aginn!

1. Competitive imbalance.
2. I don’t get to go to many games in a season (being down in Santa Cruz and having small kids and all). Interleague play always seems to fall on the weekends I might actually be able to go. I therefore resent it being forced on me.
3. Who in their right mind wants to play a team that once wore these unis?

Or even worse…

All-Father Watch: 1.21 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 22 Ks in 22 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 16, 2008 2:23 PM PDT 0 recs

I'm so busted.

But I did link to the page with the shorts uni, click on the warning image…

All-Father Watch: 1.21 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 22 Ks in 22 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 16, 2008 2:24 PM PDT up 0 recs

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on May 16, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up 0 recs

I also poo on your competitive balance!

At this rate, there won’t be a competitive balance on the site left unsoiled.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up 0 recs

You’re paying for the dry cleaning bill.

All-Father Watch: 1.21 ERA, 4 saves, 0.99 WHIP, 22 Ks in 22 1/3 IP

by EliminateMe on May 16, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

Fur it

When the Motor City Kitties come to town in June I get a Father/Son situation as my Pops is coming to watch the series with me. He is a dyed in the wool Tigers fan since way back and is excited to get to come to ATT with me.

I like to off-balance schedule as well. Now that Barry is gone, I HATE the DH.

"Strikeouts are boring! Besides that, they're fascist."
-Crash Davis

"Cain, Lincecum, and Sanchez coverted me to Anti-Crashist Fascism in 08."
-Toofruss

by toofruss on May 16, 2008 2:23 PM PDT 0 recs

Off-balance schedule for the wins!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:00 PM PDT up 0 recs

Generally fer it

I only wish we could get a couple different AL teams every year instead of the two series against the A’s. There are already enough Oakland/SF preseason games as it is.

by rocketdog on May 16, 2008 2:36 PM PDT 0 recs

Yea at least don't have so much of this.

Play 2 games at each stadium. If the two teams playing eachother don’t play near eachother…THEY SHOULDN’T BE GEOGRAPHIC RIVALS IN THE FIRST PLACE!

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on May 16, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up 0 recs

Apparently I'm in the minority

Balanced schedule. I don’t think it’s good that teams in the same division play different schedules.
I did enjoy seeing unusual matchups at first, but the thrill is gone… except for the Pierzinsky thing. But that’s more of a silver lining to me now.

by Johnny Disaster on May 16, 2008 2:36 PM PDT 0 recs

I also poo on your balanced schedule!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up 0 recs

Downside of Interleague?

Trips to Oakland.

That boy Giggsy
He's won it ten times

by ChrisHero on May 16, 2008 2:36 PM PDT 0 recs

You might want to hold off on those trips to the Colisseum

Why?

Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!

by SoFa King Mike on May 16, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up 0 recs

Fer it

Otherwise I wouldn’t have had the chance to see Dontrelle Willis face the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim in Orange County, California when I was down south in ‘05.

SAVE_US.RAY
Nattowear: now featuring new crap!

by Natto on May 16, 2008 2:42 PM PDT 0 recs

I hate interleague play

I don’t consider myself a purist by any means, but just because something is new and novel doesn’t make it superior or even good. I’d rather see the Cubs a few more times – or the Mets or the Phillies or the Reds or the Cardinals or the Pirates like the good ol’ days. Who cares about the f’ing Royals or White Socks.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on May 16, 2008 3:01 PM PDT 0 recs

I actually think it’s cool to see the Giants play the Royals. The chances of that EVER happening in my lifetime without IL play were like -2000%.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up 0 recs

In case my negative sign is on the top line for anybody else, too… I said negative 2000%.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 16, 2008 3:06 PM PDT

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