Reshaping the MLB Draft
My last post was a fake post, this one is gonna be pretty serious. (Or, at least as serious as I can manage)
Looking at the lack of young talent in the Giant's minor league system (at least in the higher levels), and our apparent inability to trade our older players for any meaningful prospects; the only semi-successful way that the Giants have refilled their minor league system is through the draft.
However, that process can take years, and it can be an extremely cyclical process. A team, with a high pick, can take a player which they believe will be good in the future. That prospect, once ready for the major leagues, could then be traded for another prospect, since the talent surrounding the original prospect is so poor. A team may trade away a prospect if they think trading them will help them in the present, as the team thinks they have a better chance with the new players. This is nothing new to anyone here. But this, often, doesn't help a team prepare for the short term.
Take the Pirates and Royals, for example. These teams used to be powerhouses, but they have been pushed into the cellar of the MLB for years, if not decades. Granted, they don't spend much, but a team that consistently finishes last in their division (or league, for that matter) should be able to more easily build their teams through the draft.
We, as Giants fans, know that you cant build a team around one player. So how does one high pick (followed, of course, by others), help a team advance in the league? The Giants definitely were smart with their recent choices, Lincecum and Cain were great first round selections. However, who's to say that more picks wouldn't have served the Giants better?
***Don't shoot me for that, I'm as big a Cain and Lincecum supporter as anyone***
This post has pretty much been building up to the fact that I think picks in the MLB Draft should be tradable, as they are in the NBA and the NFL. Many people claim that the process wouldn't work, as MLB players taken in the draft don't usually pan out the way that players in other leagues do. Sure, there is risk involved in the MLB, but try telling the 49ers that Alex Smith wasn't a risky signing. Point is, every draft comes with risk.
I think it would be easier for the Giants to build a competitive team if they were able to trade players for draft picks. Randy Winn has been hard to trade for prospects, but he is a good player that plenty of teams could use. I could see a team trade a second round pick for Randy Winn rather than parting with a prospect.
Enabling the trading of draft picks, in my estimation, could increase the amount of veteran players traded, bring more attention to the MLB draft itself, give teams the ability to rebuild faster, and give fans and teams a greater sense of ownership of their minor league players.
MCC contributors are all very savvy (veteran savvy AND normal savvy), so I'm hoping to stir up some discussion rather than laying out my master plan for improving the draft other than starting the thought process. Any thoughts?
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Correction
Normal Savvy, not norman savvy. Typing up a detailed post while watching the game doesn’t always work for me. Haha.
Angel Villalona: Treatin' all pitches like fastballs since '07.
by AngelintheInfield on May 13, 2008 9:50 PM PDT 0 recs
No need for corrections here,
You can edit your FanPosts.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
May 13, 2008 10:02 PM PDT
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Genius!
Angel Villalona: Treatin' all pitches like fastballs since '07.
by AngelintheInfield on
May 13, 2008 10:05 PM PDT
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And yea...
I don’t really think I’d trade draft picks. Depends on where the pick is, but anything after the 5th or 6th pick overall I’d only substitute for a Low-A throwin in a trade.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on May 13, 2008 10:03 PM PDT 0 recs
I like the idea, but I doubt it would make a huge difference if teams were allowed to trade draft picks. I don’t think very many teams would enjoy the idea of trading their 1st round picks because 1st rounders are usually always top prospects that you really need to keep your farm system going. And it’s not like the NFL where trading your top-5 pick for a bunch of later round picks can be a good idea. Trading a David Price or a Pedro Alvarez for a bunch of 2nd round picks doesn’t really help your team at all.
by boonitez on May 13, 2008 10:25 PM PDT 0 recs
But if you could trade your high draft pick for an actual major league player...
Only 932 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on
May 13, 2008 10:32 PM PDT
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Not necessarily true
Since the big board is different for many teams. “Moving down” (i.e. trading the 5th overall pick for the 15th and a few 2’s) could seriously improve a team’s minor league system.
Angel Villalona: Treatin' all pitches like fastballs since '07.
by AngelintheInfield on
May 13, 2008 10:38 PM PDT
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I suggest you look at some studies of draft studies
on actual, real drafts, either by BPro, or by philly on the Sons of Sam Horn board. They generally disagree with you.This is one of philly’s post on draft positions:
First, some of his definitions:
60+ WARP3: the very good to HoF great
Rd Pick Team Player Pos School WARP3
4 109 Bos Jeff Bagwell* 3B C 125.3
3 79 Tor John Olerud* 1B-LHP C 111.6
1 13 Cle Manny Ramirez* OF HS 100.2
1 12 Bos N Garciaparra* SS C 63.6
40-60 WARP3: good players
Rd Pick Team Player Pos School WARP3
1 23 Bos Mo Vaughn 1B C 56.4
5 121 Bos John Valentin SS C 56.1
5 127 Tor Mike Timlin* RHP C 50.2
8 215 Sea Derek Lowe* RHP HS 49.9
20-40 WARP3: useful players
Rd Pick Team Player Pos School WARP3
2 49 Bos Jeff Suppan* RHP HS 37.7
1 2 Det Tony Clark* OF HS 35.1
1 3 Atl Steve Avery LHP HS 33.7
1 7 Bos Trot Nixon* OF HS 33.2
1 8 Min Todd Walker* 2B C 31.5
Rd Pick Team Player Pos School WARP3
25 641 Bos John Flaherty* C C 19.6
23 640 Hou John Halama* LHP C 19.1
11 291 Bos Phil Plantier 3B HS 18.6
25 657 Sea Matt Mantei* RHP HS 15.6
By the supplemental round and picks in the 40s the valuation drops to 1.5M and the chance to draft a "good" 40+ WARP3 player dips below 5%. After that the valuations hold steady for a few rounds at roughly 700k-1M with a 2% chance to draft a "good" player and by the 8th round the picks have negligible value and a very low probability to become a "good" player.
The results of the study on picks after the 1st round:
First round – supplemental
The WARP3 average continues to plummet into the low single digits. For the rest of the draft it’ll bounce around between 0-5 WARP3 with the baseline steadily decreasing. On average, no pick after the first round is worth much of anything in terms of career production. The by the mid-30s and it gradually increases over time. In terms of "good" players there’s a trough between #36 and #42 (happens to be Buchholz), but that’s just randomness. If a player isn’t picked in the 1st rd his chances of being a "useful" or "good" player are never higher than 10% and 5% respectively.
Second Round
The most obvious characteristic of this round to me is its flatness. The WARP3 averages are between 2.5-4.5, the and the combined 40+ is around 2. There aren’t many data points that fall outside of those boundaries. Slot #75 is an exception, but a lot of that is because John Olerud, a top of the draft talent that fell to the 3rd rd due to health/signability issues, happens to be included in the slot 75 range. If I dropped him the slot 75 data would fall right in line with the rest of the second round.
By the time we get to the 2nd rd the chance of any player becoming a "good" 40+ WARP3 player is roughly 1 in 50.
The kind of players that you can get in the 2nd round are generally fairly easily available, either via trades, Latin American signings, Japanese signings, waivers, rule 5 picks, or even FA. Lincecum, or David Price type players, are never easily available, by any means.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 13, 2008 11:00 PM PDT
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great, when i read a post like this
it becomes clear to me how little i know…...
by slojoe on
May 13, 2008 11:15 PM PDT
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Interesting
I saw bits and pieces of this while I was researching for my post, but I don’t think this changes the overall picture.
Yes, there is a higher risk associated with drafting players in the MLB, but that doesn’t mean trades shouldn’t be allowed.
Perhaps the inclusion of trades and the higher value placed on tradeable picks would encourage teams to take a bigger role in player development, or more carefully scout players.
I still don’t see that large of a difference in the NFL, I’ll try to find a study which can explain how likely a 2nd or 3rd rounder is to succeed. Although the risk might be lower, I can think of plenty of 1st and 2nd rounders who didn’t pan out, and there is no shortage of busts in the later rounds.
Thanks for the great info though!
Angel Villalona: Treatin' all pitches like fastballs since '07.
by AngelintheInfield on
May 14, 2008 8:15 AM PDT
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I'm not saying that trades shouldn't be allowed
I tend to favour a free market in sports. I’m all for trading picks.
What I’m saying is that trading down, to get a couple extra picks in the 2nd round is generally not a good idea. In the 2nd round, the guys you are going to get tend to be Jose Castillo types. One guy, one Tim Lincecum, is not going to win you a WS, but neither are 25 Jose Castillos.
I’d much rather draft a Tim Lincecum, and then acquire the Jose Castillos via waivers, rule 5 drafts, international signings via LA or Japan or Taiwan, or even by just spending a couple million in FA, than draft the Jose Castillos, and then have to pay $20M to sign a Tim Lincecum in FA. Put another way, a middle infielder who can’t hit, plays OK D, and is fundamentally sound can be easily acquired. An elite starting pitcher is NEVER easily acquired, by any means.
The Pirates have sucked for years, not because they were not allowed to trade picks. Here are their first round draft picks in from 2001-2007:
2007 Daniel Moskos 4th
2006 Brad Lincoln , 4th (Tim Lincecum was drafted 10th. Clayton Kershaw 7th, Andrew Miller 6th, Max Scherzer 11th, Chris Marrero 15th, Matt Antonelli 17th, Hank Conger 25th)
2005 Andrew McCutchen, 11
2004 Neil Walker, 11
2003 Paul Maholm, 8 (John Danks, Lastings Milledge, Aaron Hill, Conor Jackson, Chad Cordero, Chad Billingsley, Daric Barton, Carlos Quentin, Adam Jones, all say hi)
2002 Bryan Bullington, FIRST (An utter disaster. Players they could have picked, BJ Upton, Zach Greinke, Prince Fielder, Jeremy Hermida, Khalil Greene, Scott Kazmir, Nick Swisher, Cole Hamels, James Loney, Jeff Francouer, Joe Blanton, Matt Cain)
2001 John Van Benschoten, 8 (Casey Kotchman, Aaron Heilman, Noah Lowry, Jeremy Bonderman, David Wright)
That’s an AWFUL record.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 9:33 AM PDT
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So the question is
Do the pirates just suck at evaluating talent, or do they have some other ulterior motive ($$$)
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 14, 2008 9:36 AM PDT
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The other question is:
Who gives a fuck about the pirates?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 14, 2008 9:36 AM PDT
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Actually I do.
They are a founding team in the league. And to see them reduced the AAA status is beyond shameful in my eyes.
Which leads to another topic of weather the league should be able to do what soccer does over seas and reassign a franchise that can’t compete at its current level for a prolonged period of time. But that isa topic for another day.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on
May 14, 2008 9:44 AM PDT
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The environment in
(European) soccer is VERY harsh. It is pretty much free market all the way. And teams don’t get a prolonged grace period. Teams are relegated and promoted every year.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 11:52 AM PDT
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I understand that. And I am pretty so sure I would not like it to be as virulent of a strain if the idea was every "barrowed".
But in an era were revenues are expanding at the clip they have been sometimes I wonder what could be done about ownerships that are not interested ( weather they like the material or emotional means is mute) in improving the quality of the game as a whole.
In a way Bud has already tipped the lid off this Pandora’s box with his talk of contraction a few years ago. Granted it was as much meant as a bargaining ploy with the MLBPA but it had to send a shiver down some owners spine.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on
May 14, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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um, their mothers?
and possibly their children. wait, no, definitely their children.
Dodgers fans eat their young.
by redhornet78 on
May 14, 2008 9:45 AM PDT
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One thing to keep in mind regarding the NFL and MLB drafts
Players from LA, Japan, Taiwan, Korea are not subject to the draft. A significant part of the talent pool of MLB is not going to be captured by the draft. So, the depth of talent available is reduced.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 9:35 AM PDT
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How, similar to the NBA?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 10:52 AM PDT
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How?
For example, Yao and Nowitzki both had to go though the draft. If they were MLB players, they would not.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
May 14, 2008 11:49 AM PDT
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Well, perhaps I mis-remember.
Do professional players have to go through draft or can they be directly signed?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 14, 2008 12:03 PM PDT
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Alright, I was wrong.
fine.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 14, 2008 1:01 PM PDT
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It would give a farm system more decent prospects,
but probably none that are really that great. That’s like trading Jay Bruce or Alex Gordon for a bunch of Nick Noonan’s.
by boonitez on
May 14, 2008 10:38 PM PDT
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I whole-heartedly support trading draft picks in MLB
Only 932 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on May 13, 2008 10:32 PM PDT 0 recs
The more
The more you allow teams to do, the bigger the advantage to the smart teams. The smart teams would likely hoard future draft picks.
Just like the Giants did back in the Michael Tucker days.
by sharksrog on
May 14, 2008 12:35 AM PDT
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Michael Tucker
Had the Giants been able to trade their draft picks, they likely don’t lose that Michael Tucker first round pick. The reason why Sabean signed Tucker despite knowing that they would lose the pick was that they figured that the money which would have gone to the first round pick would be better suited towards a major league player.
Had they been able to trade that pick, that’s what they would have done, almost certainly. In fact, I am pretty sure the Giants would have traded a lot of their first round picks over the later half of the nineties and early 2000’s had they been able to.
This is the main way that draft picks would be traded in my opinion. First rounders (maybe some second rounders too) for major league players. It’s essentially like trading prospects for major leaguers, but the team being traded the pick has more control over who they get.
Essentially, it gives teams more freedom. Yes, it also gives smart teams another tool. But I have no problem with that.
Only 932 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on
May 14, 2008 10:33 AM PDT
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That's why I'm against trading draft picks
Because Brian Sabean would be more likely to trade away draft picks than trade players for draft picks. Yes, it gives smart teams another tool to use. Until we become a smart team, I prefer to ban the tool.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
May 14, 2008 2:08 PM PDT
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I don't know
It would have depended on what Sabean got in return for his draft picks. I don’t get the idea that trading draft picks automatically equals bad. Especially for a team that just gave some away for nothing because they didn’t want to pay the small amount of money (relatively speaking) it would have taken to sign a first round pick. And then there’s the fact that most of the Giants first round picks during that time period have been absolutely of no consequence.
If you also think about the barrenness of the Giants’ farm system, being able to trade picks during Bonds heyday would have been a good thing. It would have given Sabean more tools to pick up good major leaguers to make the team stronger.
Only 932 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on
May 14, 2008 2:59 PM PDT
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I'm drunk (keeping this short)
I do like allowing trading picks because it makes the draft and trading overall more interesting.
But – it may result in more separation of the top teams from the cellar dwellers. And that’s not a good thing. The best GMs are likely already ahead! Allowing them to steal great picks for their crappy veterans doesn’t appeal to me.
There is no bottom line to this post. Just some thoughts.
by fwoty oz on May 13, 2008 11:00 PM PDT 0 recs
i think it would be a good idea
maybe mlb could start by allowing rounds #5-10 to be traded and see how it goes….
by slojoe on May 13, 2008 11:13 PM PDT 0 recs
I don't think trading picks will make a big difference...
You’re using comparisons from a league where 90% of first round picks affect the team the team the following year to a sport where only 71% of Top 10 Overall picks make the big league team….eventually (according to drafts from 1995-2004).
Beyond the Top 10, you’ll start seeing percentages drop to 50% or less in the rest of the first round. Beyond the first round, it might be 10% or less.
Draft picks are all a gamble, but there’s a different gamble between getting ‘good but not great’ for your money, or getting ‘two years, three injuries, and not a day of major league service ever’ for it.
Except for maybe a Number 1 or Number 2 overall pick, I doubt any team anywhere would trade a major leaguer for a draft pick.
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by BruteSentiment on May 14, 2008 12:02 AM PDT 0 recs
I think we would trade Randy Winn for another top 10 pick.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 14, 2008 8:18 AM PDT
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What about multiple first round picks?
Or a first and a supplemental round pick? Sure, draft picks in baseball aren’t as valuable as in football. That doesn’t mean that they have no value.
I don’t think a first round pick, by itself, will usually bring much. But there’s multiple picks, there’s combining the pick with prospects or other players and other creative ways to use them.
And imagine what Arizona would have been offered for their first pick in the Justin Upton draft.
The point is, it gives teams more freedom. And there’s nothing wrong with that, usually.
Only 932 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on
May 14, 2008 10:39 AM PDT
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I generally agree
It gives teams something else to barter with, which expands the options for a smart GM.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 14, 2008 11:24 AM PDT
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Interesting discussion
but the MLBPA won’t ever allow this to happen. I don’t think Bud will allow it either. He really believes the slotting system is a good idea, how could he possible be flexible enough to allow this?
by tyrannoman on May 14, 2008 9:10 AM PDT 0 recs
I don’t see an accounting for the fact for the bulk of the time the Pirates & Royals have been down the fact both respective ownership groups would need to buy 2 vowels and a constant to be considered cheep.
Think of the Issary Colts in Baltimore and then there first few years in Indie. Or the Bidwell Football Cardinals ( both Stl & AZ) as great examples how being able to trade their draft picks have failed to produce what you are looking for. I think the type of trades you are hoping for happen for AAA & AA prospects. Most baseball draftees are like college freshman in football.
It’s a good topic though and I now have something else to look forward to later in the day. Thanks.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 14, 2008 9:17 AM PDT 0 recs








