20 Loss-Cy Young

by rotorueter on May 10, 2008 12:45 PM PDT Comment 32 comments

After witnessing firsthand Zito's 7th loss on this young season in Pittsburgh, I had a thought: "How many pitchers in baseball history have had both a Cy Young season AND a 20 loss season in their careers?"

I did a little research and came up with three:

Denny McClain http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mclaide01.shtml

Steve Carlton http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/carltst01.shtml

Randy Jones http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jonesra01.shtml

What's fascinating about this list is that all of these pitchers played in the 1970's

In other words, if Zito loses 20 games this year, he will have been the first pitcher to have both a Cy Young award and a 20- loss season since 1976.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Wow

I absolutely thought this was going to be about Matt Cain.

What I got instead was a far more interesting fanpost. Nice work.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 10, 2008 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Cain

Me too.

by CTGiant on May 12, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

They will shut him down before he reaches 20 losses

Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est?

by shikantaza on May 10, 2008 2:54 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Almost certainly

There’s no way Giants ownership lets their 126 million dollar “prize” lose 20 games.

Only 935 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on May 10, 2008 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know

I’m sure they’d shut him down if it comes down to the last two or three starts, but at this rate he’ll be pushing 20 by August. I could see the team going with a 6-man rotation down the stretch to cut his number of starts, but I don’t think they’d just sit him for a month plus (if it comes to that).

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on May 11, 2008 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Rehabbing in the minors"

Only 935 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on May 11, 2008 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he has the best chance of loosing 20 games of any player in the last 20 years.

If healthy he can go out there and absorb innings ala Livan. But unlike Livan’s years here there is no chance the offense can play a barn burner type game and save the pitcher from himself. Add to that the Giants will find a guy that can go 6 -7 innings giving up 5 runs very useful in filling a niche need that for both this season and the feature years. The last thing they should be doing is pushing Tim or Cain just because the 2 of the bottom 3 starters beat the living crap out of the ‘pen.

At this point do you consider Zito to be probable plus for ‘09 and beyond? If not the team really only has 2 options. 1) cut him for the roster slot or 2) get any kind of use they possibly can from him. Taking one for the team every other time out there or 2 of every 3 times would be a way.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 12, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of any Giants pitcher, or any pitcher in general?

Mike Maroth already lost 20 not too many years ago, so I’d say he had about a 100% chance to lose 20 in the past 20 years. Does Zito have a better than 100% chance?

Sorry for the smart-assery… I’ve been looking to add something somewhere, and this seemed like my best chance.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 12, 2008 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I made that statement with out the benefit of the magic George Carlin Phone booth.

From the perspective of how like I thought a team would allow a pitcher to lose all 20. I did not think the did not think the ‘03 Tigers would do that to their then 25 year old. I was wrong then but I’l not deny it now.

As for venting just to get the poison out feel free as long as you get way I am saying what I am saying.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 12, 2008 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apologies, man...

But could you re-type that entire post? Honestly, it was like you mumbled that paragraph while in the middle of a giant bite of sandwich, except you typed it, so I don’t know what happened… But either way, I don’t understand a single thing you said in there.

If I get your point, you’re trying to say that before any season began over the past 20 years, you didn’t think anyone SHOULD lose 20 games, but then along comes Spring Training 2008, and Zito looked – for all intensive purposes – like he’d lose 20?

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 12, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point taken and sorry for adding confusion.

I was just addressing the start of this branch which is, " will a team allow a pitcher to lose 20 games" . Not so much if given player can lose 20 games. Not if a given player has lost 20 games. I think they are likely to be so very strong logical reasons for a team to allow Zito to lose 20 if he is still on track for it and healthy come August & September. After all if the manager does not give him the ball he can’t lose. And every time the manager hands him the ball he is making a choice to run that risk.

When you mentioned Marmoth in ‘03 I assumed you were not purposely ignoring the fact Trammell made that choice to run that risk a minimum of 10 different times after August 1. If just a one or two of those choices are made differently no 20 game loser. If you want to compare circumstances that prompted the decisions for the ‘03 Tigers to conditions that would prompt the ‘08 Giants to allow Zito to lose 20 games that are more reasons for the Giants to do that then the ‘03 Tigers to do it.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 13, 2008 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn’t purposely ignoring any facts, I was just sort of looking for a bit of clarification regarding 20 game losers in the past 20 years, and that there was a pitcher who did lose 20. Basically, you said po-TAY-to, I said to-MAY-to. You were speaking French, I was speaking German. You were talking about an apple, I was looking at an orange and wondering how this comparison made sense, when you weren’t even talking about oranges… You said, “Look, ma! No hands!” And I said, “They’re at the end of your arms, dummy!”

You know… Miscommunication on my part… Stuff like that.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on May 13, 2008 9:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a problem

I was more into answering because it would not be the first time I learned something new here. Or a chain of logic I had missed.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on May 13, 2008 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He has.

13 last year , 7 this year.

Aaron "Swag" Rowand

by victor frankenstein on May 12, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pretty cool trivia answer.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on May 10, 2008 4:09 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I doubt

I doubt Barry will lose 20, but it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility given the “hot” start he is off to this season. :)

by sharksrog on May 10, 2008 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Yes, quite fascinating

Rotoreuter are you BowlerBob in disguise?

by slojoe on May 10, 2008 5:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Cy Young himself had three 20-loss seasons. Two of those were winning seasons, too. :)

I have set Dave Roberts free; if he comes back, it was meant to be.

by hometownboy on May 10, 2008 5:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

it’s true. i followed the link and it’s true.

Castillo hits doubles.

by kennv on May 10, 2008 8:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But where is your proof??

SAVE_US.RAY
Nattowear: now featuring new crap!

by Natto on May 10, 2008 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Career #1 in both Ws and Ls

511 and 316. That in itself is amazing. Over 30,000 batters faced. Scrolling down that page is like reading a good book.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on May 10, 2008 11:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like how he threw 420+ innings as 24 year old second year player.

by hammystyle on May 12, 2008 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

GAMER

I bet he came back after like 10 rain delays that year too.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on May 12, 2008 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He probably pitched THROUGH rain delays.

SAVE_US.RAY
Nattowear: now featuring new crap!

by Natto on May 12, 2008 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

As someone once said

Cy Young never won a Cy Young, but did win a bunch of Tim Lincecums in an alternate universe.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on May 12, 2008 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Barry tends to get better as the year goes on

so maybe he’ll avoid losing 20

by vivalancellotti on May 11, 2008 4:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

dont see how he could do worse

by slojoe on May 11, 2008 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i'll admit it

Can I be the only one with this particular perversion? I’m absolutely rooting for Barry to lose 20. Not that I think it’s good for him, or the franchise. Nor am I defending this belief on any particularly logical basis. It’s just my quirk. I think it started when all the BP guys were predicting who was most likely to lose 20 this year, and most of them picked Cain (1 even picked Timmy). My first reaction was that this was obviously false—Barry has the perfect storm of health, impotent offense, and his own suckiness that give him a fighting chance.

And while I agree that they won’t have him make that last start of the year if he’s at 19, I don’t know if they can shut him down if he continues his great work and hits 19 by late August.

In this context, his last start (reasonable pitching plus a loss) was absolutely at the sweet spot.

I got one word for you: "youneverknow"

by senorvegas on May 11, 2008 7:04 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs