April Thoughts
Now that the month of April is behind us, here are some impressions and thoughts about the team so far. Feel free to add your own:
- The most significant event thus far appears to be Dave Roberts going down, opening the door for Fred Lewis. We all know Lewis isn't this good...or is he? He now has has 260 career MLB ABs and a line of 312/393/458. When you consider all the extra balls he gets to (like in the 8th inning Wednesday), he's doing an admiarable job of replacing old #25.
- My buddy who's a Philly fan said, the more you watch Aaron Rowand play, the more you'll like him, especially the way he takes outside pitches the other way. He was right. If he's this good with cracked ribs, this was a good signing, regardless of how many CFs we already had.
- Is going from a CF/LF of Roberts/Bonds last year to Rowand/Lewis this year an upgrade? Sure looks that way so far. Bonds and Roberts have zero HRs this season while Lewis and Rowand have combined for 4!
- Manny Burriss sure looks like he has more of a clue at the plate than Brian Bocock and is more dangerous on the basepaths. Is his defense so much worse than Bocock's that he shouldn't be getting the vast majority of the playing time? I think not!
- Anyone else notice that Eugenio Velez seems to have a bit of a 'tude? Looks a little too whiny and gumby-shouldered at times. Kruk pointed out how dumb it was to show up the ump by flipping the bat and heading to first before an ump calls ball four. It kinda looked like it was second nature to him.
- The baserunning blunders so far by Lewis, Bocock and Velez have been infuriating, but to be expected. I'm still glad the kids are getting a chance to play.
- Now that we're past the first month, Randy Winn will start contributing...and hopefully raising his trade value.
- Even though I thought it made sense at the time, I'm really glad the Sanchez for Matsuki trade rumors didn't prove to be true.
- That the Giants are only 3 games below .500 despite Barry Zito being in the rotation is a minor miracle. If they can figure out the back of the rotation and play the way they have been, they'll be even more watchable and almost...wait for it...good! Anyone wishing they could get a mulligan on their 2008 record prediction?
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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I predicted 100 losses
I’ll take that mulligan. Hell, they might even go .500!!
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on May 1, 2008 10:33 AM PDT 0 recs
Relevant hijack (Sorry, Goofus)
I actually saw the title and thought you’d be posting about the same thing I decided to post on. Since it’s in the same arena, I’ll post it anyway.
ESPN has their own “April Thoughts” article, and they actually had an interesting idea (shocking, yes). Granted, it was from a baseball official they interviewed, it at least presented an interesting idea. Here’s the clip from this article:
• Baked Zito—the dessert: We also asked high-ranking officials of two clubs what they would do if they had a big-buck disaster like Zito on their team. The first replied: “I’d cry.” The second had a more innovative proposal.“Here’s what they should do,” he said. “They should go to Zito and say, ‘Look, it’s clear this is not going to work. Let’s put together an NBA-type deferral package. We’ll take the whole contract, defer it over 30 years with no interest and then we’ll release you, to let you start fresh somewhere else.’
The club could get significant cost savings that way. You take $112 million over 30 years, that’s $3.7 million a year. You’re better off paying him $3.7 million a year to not pitch than having him go out and do what he’s doing. … In the NBA, this happens a lot. The union would never let him do that in our sport. But you know what? From the player’s standpoint, he’d be better off.”
This sounds like a pretty interesting idea to me, and if Zito’s been humbled enough, let him go somewhere else to reinvent himself, or just quit baseball altogether and surf or whatever the heck he wants. Of course, you’d have to add interest to the salary amount for the time value of money change over 30 years, but still, I’d be okay with $4 million for 30 years to wipe out this mistake.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on May 1, 2008 10:35 AM PDT 0 recs
Interesting Idea
Why would the player’s association object to this? It seems like a win-win for both sides. Taking 4 million for 30 years is quite a punch in the gut.
Optimist Outlook: Gamers rhymes with winners
Pessimist Outlook: Gamers rhymes with losers
My Outlook: Augusta Greenjackets FTW!!
by gianator on
May 1, 2008 10:38 AM PDT
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How ‘bout we pay him a dollar a year for 126 million years?
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
May 1, 2008 10:46 AM PDT
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Probably the interest factor..
In 30 years, that 3.7 million might be worth 4.5 million. And in 30 years, a contract like his might be 7 years 200 million.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
May 1, 2008 11:59 AM PDT
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I think it’s too early to go down that path. Let’s what he’s able to do with time and pressure off.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
May 1, 2008 10:47 AM PDT
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pressure?
I guess I’m wondering what pressure he has other than living up to his contract? The team isn’t contending this year, everyone knows that. If it is pressure related to his contract, that’ll never go away and I don’t see how time could solve that problem. That is, unless contracts start getting thrown out to mediocre pitchers that are 150% of his contract and his starts to pale in comparison (sort of what happened to Griffey, who’s contract seemed ginormous at the time but would be considered reasonable now—by the way, I’m not saying Jr.’s performance in any way has reflected Zito’s)
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
May 1, 2008 10:55 AM PDT
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How is the player better off? Not only does he lose money (due to inflation), he loses a guaranteed spot on a roster, and in an organization that has a strong interest in helping him improve. The union would be right to scoff.
by Evan on
May 1, 2008 11:06 AM PDT
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That's why I said to adjust for the time value of money
I’m pretty sure Zito would be able to survive off of $4 million a year, plus whatever the team that signs him will pay him. He could be a laughing stock with the Giants by keeping his gigantic contract or spread it out, go somewhere else, and try to improve himself and get the magic back, so to speak.
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
May 1, 2008 11:11 AM PDT
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I’m pretty sure Zito would be able to survive off of $4 million a year, plus whatever the team that signs him will pay him.
I love this line ! I can barely afford gas for my car and the money I send to my two daughters in college. $4M ? I’m in .
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
by nvsfg on
May 1, 2008 11:16 AM PDT
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I guess he could help Sprewell feed his kids if he has too much laying around
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
May 1, 2008 11:49 AM PDT
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I think there might be tax advantages to deferring the money, as well.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
May 1, 2008 12:14 PM PDT
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Good thing I'm a CPA
yeah, it would. Paying taxes on 4 million is a lot better than paying it on 20 million
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
May 1, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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So you're saying...
...that if Zito doesn’t get ~$15 million each year for the next 5 years, the loss in tax revenue would sink our economy? Heck, keep paying the man.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
May 1, 2008 12:52 PM PDT
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IT'S BUSH'S FAULT!!!!1!
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on
May 1, 2008 1:02 PM PDT
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My April Thoughts
Pretty much mirror yours, but I’ll chime in on a couple.
Velez-I was there on Sunday, unfortunately. Bocock was really furious with him after the inning ending pop up and got right in his face after Velez did not back off the play. Then, Velez pointed to the ground with a rather abrupt gesture like to say, “It was on my side.” I don’t know if either of the broadcasts focused on it, but the events of that inning made me think that Bocock maybe doesn’t have much confidence in Velez’s glove. It also occurred to me that maybe Winn did not take charge of the fly ball to right because he did not trust Velez to back off the play?
Zito-Who? I am so tired of hearing his name. I am going to pretend he is just another guy trying to figure it out. Its the only way to move forward.
I am pleased with the overall entertainment value of this team, and think they can possibly flirt with .500 for at least a portion of the year. However, I personally am trying to temper my enthusiasm because I see a lot of players on this team who have the ability to frustrate and annoy (Castillo, Winn, Bocock, to name a few).
by out machine on May 1, 2008 10:48 AM PDT 0 recs
Totally agree on the Bocock/Velez flap. The shortstop is the captain of the infield and if he calls it, it’s his. Velez motioned as if there’s an imaginary line going from home plate to 2nd base and Bocock shouldn’t cross it. This was one of the moments that gave me the impression that Velez has a ‘tude. He’s not good enough to have a ‘tude.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
May 1, 2008 10:55 AM PDT
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If he can’t reign in his ‘tude best we learn in the next couple months.
Joe Castle might be a bit better at 2nd then he is at third. It ’s were he played most of his games. And finding 2nd base candidates that should be available in the next 12 months should not be a big problem. Ellis & Lopez ( Wash) are 2 that spring to mind off the top of my head without looking at wavier waviers, blocked guys or the return of Frandsen.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on
May 1, 2008 11:06 AM PDT
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Regarding the 'tude
I agree, he’s not good enough to have it, but to a degree, a lot of people in the media, and fans, created this situation by hyping him up during the spring. Remember Jon saying, “I’ve got two words for you: Eugenio Velez”, when asked about the ‘08 season? That may not have been the wisest thing for him to do. Succeeding in spring is great, but we as Giants fans aided in pumping up the man’s ego.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on
May 1, 2008 12:23 PM PDT
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I've never met the guy
So I will reserve all opinions on whether he has a ‘tude or not. I just want him to play well.
He’s been playing pretty okay. We don’t need any ‘tudes on this team however.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 1, 2008 12:38 PM PDT
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how about a wining ‘tude? or a gamer ‘tude?
Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.
by kennv on
May 2, 2008 11:37 AM PDT
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that new lefty in our pen
im with you, I’m just gonna pretend like we are a semi-small market team with 20 million fewer dollars to spend per year and some wacky soft tossing lefty in the pen.
by sam23 on
May 1, 2008 4:52 PM PDT
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In 06 Bocock was promoted from SK to Augusta for the playoffs because while Velez was tearing it up with the bat he was stinking it up with the glove. You make the call as to whether or not there is much confidence in V’s glove.
Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster.
by RichH on
May 1, 2008 5:32 PM PDT
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April thoughts
- Our offense is terrible
- And so is our defense
- Lincecum and Sanchez were awesome
- Zito stinks
- Cain needs to quit walking 5 million hitters
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on May 1, 2008 11:03 AM PDT 0 recs
ok. So now hit me with the bad news.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on
May 1, 2008 11:08 AM PDT
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OK, I hope you're sitting down Dave...
Barry Zito
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on
May 1, 2008 11:14 AM PDT
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You forgot to mention..
Barry Zito.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
May 1, 2008 12:01 PM PDT
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Barry Zito?
Barry Zito, Barry Zito….
Barry Zito.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on
May 1, 2008 12:15 PM PDT
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Malkovich
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on
May 1, 2008 12:23 PM PDT
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The Horror … The Horror …The Horror.
Now I feel It must be after 5pm some place.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on
May 1, 2008 12:25 PM PDT
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Cain Command....
I look forward to the day when Cain doesn’t walk more than 2 batters in a start.
I trust he will turn it around. When Cain has command of his pitches he is one of the most dominating guys in baseball (obvious, I know!).
by Squire_Boone on
May 1, 2008 11:42 AM PDT
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Pleasant surprises
- “Skates” Lewis has been a godsend. His OB numbers are off the charts and he looks like he is learning how to steal bases.
- While a few of his throws are less than perfect Rowand leads by example and is a gamer.
- Burriss > Bocock. Bocock should be in Norwich.
- Little V is quite raw and needs to play everyday which could be happen either in SF or Fresno. If he has the attitude you suspect then his mentor Roberto Kelly should help with this.
- Baserunning blunders are not to be expected. That is what you learn in little league, pony lague, instrux and minors. By the time they hit The Show they should be well schooled.
- Randy Winn to the Indians.
- Viva El Guapo.
- .500 here we come! Pitching, pitching and more pitching.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 11:10 AM PDT 0 recs
oh and let's not forget
- The bullpen – Walker, Taschner, Valdez, Wilson , Yabu etc
by wilriv21 on
May 1, 2008 11:26 AM PDT
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Yes yes yes
I’d like to compare last year’s bull W-L record in April to this year’s. I don’t think “improved” is the appropriate adjective. I’d use something like “dominating” or “practically un-beatable”.
While Fred Lewis is currently my favorite Giant, the bullpen IS the reason we are only 3 games under.
Bases loaded, one out and ${VETERAN_GIANT} hits a $#^&*@# grounder to 2nd!!!!
by toofruss on
May 1, 2008 11:39 AM PDT
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Randy Winnn....Trade!
I second Randy Winn to the Indians. The Giants should be able to pry Andy Marte from them since the Indians seem to be at a loss as what to do with the guy.
Plus, Marte has GOT to be better than Jose Castillo. At least Marte has a decent track record.
by Squire_Boone on
May 1, 2008 11:40 AM PDT
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G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG
24 57 3 8 2 1 0 4 7 13 0 1 . 227 .211 140
Andy Marte’s big league totals. Smells like JR Phillips to me (sorry JR)
by tyrannoman on
May 1, 2008 1:01 PM PDT
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57 Ab's?
Only 943 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on
May 1, 2008 3:27 PM PDT
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Marte's Totals...
G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO AVG OBP SLG
101 291 26 57 21 2 6 35 0 1 23 62 .196 .258 .344
Those are his MLB career totals. I know they are not very impressive, but at 24 the guy still has more upside than Jose Castillo ever will. Plus, like I said, he has a much better track record in the minors than Castillo does.
Furthermore, he hasn’t really been given much of a fair shot by the Indians in the past couple years. The Indians just have not handled him very well. If the Giants acquire him they should put him at 3B and let him know that he is gonna play no matter what (which is the approach they are taking with Castillo, to a degree).
I think Marte is young enough and showed enough promise when he was younger to be given a shot. I am not saying that he would turn into this year’s Carlos Pena. I am just saying the Giants don’t have much to lose.
by Squire_Boone on
May 1, 2008 3:56 PM PDT
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Kind of agree
But I would hope Winn would bring back a little more. I don’t have a problem giving Marte a shot.
Sorry about those totals, they were through 2007, and didn’t include his efforts this year.
by tyrannoman on
May 2, 2008 7:16 AM PDT
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YOU SONOFA...
Oh, you apologized… Well, apology accepted! (Seriously, I will beat this dead horse to death)
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on
May 1, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
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Except you don’t see pitchers with pickoff moves like these in the minors. This is the very first year, at the MLB level, that the Giants have used the running game. It is not surprising that there are going to be some screw ups. I think it is realistic to expect great improvement in the second half. Still, I am not sure what you do about the play where Velez was picked off 2 nights ago when he lunged for the bag and his feet just pushed loose infield dirt, taking all of the power out of his lunge, and he landed halfway to the bag.. I am not sure that is his ‘fault,’ or is a correctable ‘mistake.’
by allfrank on
May 1, 2008 2:05 PM PDT
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Good point. They will all learn. We wanted a young team, and this is what happens when youngsters play. Your point about the pickoff move is especially valid. Those moves just are not around in AA.
by tyrannoman on
May 1, 2008 2:35 PM PDT
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El Guapo
is who? I missed it.
Notgardo, I still love you -- but you're grounded. No Guitar Hero for a month, no Cheez-Its for two months, and NO BASEBALL! This hurts me as much as it hurts you.
by tk on
May 1, 2008 4:08 PM PDT
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We would also accept “the bee’s knees.”
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
May 2, 2008 7:44 AM PDT
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Per Wikipedia Bengie Molina went by El Guapo in his youth in PR.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
May 2, 2008 7:44 AM PDT
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Is going from a CF/LF of Roberts/Bonds last year to Rowand/Lewis this year an upgrade?
I think it is when you consider that Bonds would only play through the 6th or 7th inning in a lot of games.
It is also helpful that Lewis is benefiting from the consistent playing time and Rowand is so very much better than Roberts.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on May 1, 2008 11:10 AM PDT 0 recs
As Goofus's HR point goes, though
In April last season Bonds/Roberts combined for 8 HRs. That’s twice as many as 4.
I agree that thusfar Lewis/Rowand has been better than Bonds/Roberts, though. However, I attribute that in large part to Roberts being terrible and Lewis being much much better than he’s capable of continuing to be.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
May 1, 2008 12:58 PM PDT
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On the Contrary
HR’s is irelevant. How many runs did Bonds/Roberts produce vs. Lewis/Rowand?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 1, 2008 12:59 PM PDT
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First
I was wrong about the total Roberts had 1 HR last April, so the total between the two was 9. Whoops.
Second: R/RBI for both in April
Bonds/Roberts 2007: 29/20
Lewis/Rowand 2008: 25/21
Pretty close, actually, but Bonds/Roberts still winn. Also, it’s messy. I should probably have used something like “runs created,” but I’m not sure how to find that monthly stats, so I used the quick and dirty.
And HR’s are not irrelevent.
But to go even farther:
HR/R/RBI
Bonds April 2007: 8/17/17
Rowand April 2008: 2/8/14
Lewis April 2008: 2/17/7
Roberts April 2007: 1/12/3
Again, I must reiterate the messyness of using RBI and R here, but I’m only trying to draw a rough sketch so they’ll mostly do.
The point is if the two combinations are really only close because Roberts was so bad, not because Bonds and all his HRs weren’t worth it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
May 1, 2008 1:31 PM PDT
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If you add HR, aren’t you just simply double counting some of the R/RBI.
Also, my point about Lewis/Rowand was not just offense. They combine for much much much better defense than Bonds/Roberts. Bonds would have never got to the ball Lewis caught yesterday; that’s an example of taking a run away from the other team, which is just as valauble.
firstly, as Groug pointed out, Bonds missed a lot of playing time, which left Bochy with few options.
Secondly, Rowand can play more than Roberts, regardless of the pitcher. (Roberts’ numbers have always cried out of a platoon partner.)
Turdly, Rowand + Lewsi is cheaper than Roberts and Lewis. (Yes, I know Roberts is a sunk cost right now.)
Finally, Bonds and Roberts were not going to be part of the next good Giants team. Lewis and Rowand most certainly could be a big part of the next good Giants team.
Would Bonds bat be a welcome presence in the lineup? Yes. Would I like to see him in there at the expense of what we got cookin’ in LF/CF right now? No. I think the Giants may have lucked into Lewis Wally Pippin Roberts, but the right thing is happening.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
May 1, 2008 1:47 PM PDT
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Well
Oh boy, here I go again.
I mean, I’m NOT trying to keep Bonds on this pedestal. I agree wholeheartedly that he doesn’t belong on the team this year, and I said above and I maintain that Rowand/Lewis is BETTER than Bonds/Roberts. I’m trying not to be misread here. The problem I have is when people use things like this to say that Bonds and Home Runs totally sucked total ass, man.
To conceptually simplify what I’m trying to get at, let’s say Bonds was a 3.5 on a scale of 1-5, because despite his massive hitting, his defense left something to be desired and he didn’t play all the time. Let’s say Roberts was a 2 because he didn’t hit and his defense was just average. Now let’s say Lewis is a 3 and Rowand is a 4.
Bonds + Roberts = 5.5 out of 10, and Lewis/Rowand = 7 out of 10.
Conclusion: Bonds is shit?
No way, I call BS on that. And I will always call BS on that. By the same token, Cain sucks because Cain+Zito =/= Lincecum+Sanchez.
To be fair to you, Goofus, I know for a fact that is not what you were doing. You were looking at the outfield as a whole, you were looking at the state of the team this year, you were looking at what works best going forward. You were not building a logical fallacy that Bonds was terrible last season because he combines with one player worse than two other players combine.
I also know that when you say Rowand/Lewis have combined for 4 HRs and Bonds/Roberts have none, you were making a joke. My original response to that was supposed to be more facetious than anything else.
But as with many things Bonds, I’m still kind of sensitive about the way Giants fans have turned on him since last year, and I will overreact to things like Fairweather’s response to mine, which is innocent enough on its own.
But yes, Bonds makes no sense on the team this year. The outfield IS better this year, for all the reasons you list above. I’m not trying to contradict that point. Just, when looking at Bonds/Roberts vs. Lewis/Rowand, most people are going to attribute most of the different to being minus Bonds, when the “minus Roberts” actually has more to do with it.
I mean, Bonds/Roberts vs. Lewis/Roberts vs. Rowand/Roberts vs. Bonds/Rowand vs. Lewis/Bonds vs. Lewis/Rowand? From a STRICTLY PRODUCTIVE point of view, the 3 Roberts combinations are the bottom 3 of all those combinations. And, I’d be willing to bet that a Bonds combination woud lead the bunch. Doesn’t mean we should actually HAVE him, because we should not, but let’s not overestimate the effect of “not having Bonds” on the outfield being better this year.
-
And now I’ve officially wildly overreacted about Bonds for the first time in months. I have to go to meeting this weekend and admit to a relapse, for crying out loud. My sponsor is not going to be happy about this.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
May 1, 2008 2:15 PM PDT
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I’m sorry, I wasn’t listening. Could you repeat that?
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
May 1, 2008 2:58 PM PDT
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It was mostly
Just “blah blah blah” anyway. Don’t worry about it.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on
May 1, 2008 3:00 PM PDT
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I felt it was more
blah blah BONDS blah blah blah BONDS
Do you feel better?
by tyrannoman on
May 1, 2008 3:05 PM PDT
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No one is disagreeing with you
I am a huge Bonds fan, and if he were on this team we would probably have a winning record. Shit, part of me thinks that with him this team might even contend this year.
But that is besides the point. Rowand/Lewis is better than Bonds/Roberts because Roberts sucks. Bonds/Rowand or Bonds/Lewis is better than Rowand/Lewis. Bonds was and still is an offensive force.
Counting HR + RBI + R is just counting runs scored as a result of HR twice. R + RBi is a somewhat crude but useful approximation of runs generated.
That gives you Bonds/Roberts 49 runs (almost all Bonds) and Lewis/Rowand 46 runs. That is essentially equal. On the defensive side of the glove, I can think of 4-5 plays that the Lewis/Rowand pair directly prevented runs that the Bonds/Roberts pair wouldn’t have had a chance on. Lewis/Rowand is clearly an improvement in the present as well as the future.
If you wanted to build the best OF from this mess, you would go Bonds/Rowand/Lewis and come up with 80 runs created, which is nearly as many as the entire giants lineup in April this year :)
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 1, 2008 3:07 PM PDT
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R + RBI is a terrible measure of anything! I forbid you to use it!
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on
May 1, 2008 3:18 PM PDT
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It's really not that good, does not take into consideration moving the runner or extending the inning, which is worth something.
And I just realized that it actually needs to be RBI + Runs – HR or else you end up over-valuing the HR.
So that actually makes the lews/rowand OF better.
Lewis/Rowand = 42 runs generated.
Bonds/Roberts = 40 runs generated.
Case Closed?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 1, 2008 3:28 PM PDT
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Not until you remove Roberts
lewis/rowand vs Bonds/no one
try that?
by positiveuphemism on
May 1, 2008 4:51 PM PDT
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Case closed?
RBI + Runs – HR is one of the worst ways I’ve ever seen to calculate offensive production, and not just because it “does not take into consideration moving the runner or extending the inning”.
In 2002, when, I’m sure you’ll agree, Bonds was the best hitter in the league by far, he had a RBI + Runs – HR of 181.
Derek Jeter, who hit .297/.373/.421 that year, also had RBI + Runs – HR of 181. Bernie Williams had 185. Nomar Garciaparra had 197.
But Bonds was slow and only played in 141 games….How about this:
Ichiro Suzuki: 154.
David freakin’ Eckstein: 162.
Ichiro had better AVG, OBP and SLG, is a much faster player, and played in more games, yet he still had a lower RBI+R-HR.
Will you promise me to never use that stat again?
..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.
by Cookyman on
May 2, 2008 2:49 AM PDT
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I'm not promising you shit.
I didn’t say anything about offensive production, I said runs created.
Runs + RBI – HR very simply measures runs created. I did not claim it did anything more than that. It’s not an all encompassing #, just like any other statistical #. It is however mildly useful for a back of the envelope comparison, which is what I did.
Jesus.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 2, 2008 7:29 AM PDT
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The problem with runs and RBI is that they measure results, which are thoroughly circumstantial. What we’re interested in is ability.
I know you’re just doing a back-of-the-envelope calculation, but there are plenty of sophisticated “total” stats (rc/27, EQA, batting runs, etc.) you can find all over the Internet, so I don’t see any reason to bother with the cruder measurements.
by Evan on
May 2, 2008 7:56 AM PDT
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Because I'm here, and that's how I felt like expressing my point
Feel free to utlize some other tools to do so. I would like to see the results.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 2, 2008 10:08 AM PDT
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that
does assume there will be no dropoff from a 44 year old playing leftfild, right?
by tyrannoman on
May 1, 2008 3:19 PM PDT
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Bonds would have to drop off pretty far to generate less runs than Winn...
Winn = 19 runs generated to Bonds 26.
Hmm, not that far I guess. Interesting…. Current OF is 61 runs.
Rowand/Lewis/Bonds is 68.
Probably worth 1-2 W’s thusfar tho.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
May 1, 2008 3:31 PM PDT
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Only if you take the “transcendant one” out of the lineup. Seven runs does not make a difference when a pitcher gives up 8 :-)
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
by nvsfg on
May 1, 2008 3:34 PM PDT
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