Bye bye Noah?
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 7:41 AM PDT
91 comments
Lowry to sit: Pitcher Noah Lowry will be "shut down" for the next three or four weeks, as the Giants trainers evaluate his left forearm, which was surgically repaired March 8.
Lowry is experiencing a "pins and needles" sensation in the affected area, according to team trainer Dave Groeschner. Lowry had a nerve exam Tuesday and will get another opinion later this week. But he will not be pitching anytime soon.
"It could be three weeks, it could be longer," Groeschner said. "We need to shut him down until this thing is right. Otherwise, we are just spinning our wheels."
Michelle Smith - sfgate
This is quite scary to me. The longer this drags on, the less chance we see Noah ever pitching in the bigs again. These lingering mystery injuries seem to never quite heal, and now I'm wondering if the Giants' are going to have to shop for a fifth starter untl Correria heals up, and with an obliquie strain that could be a long, long time.
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Not Good
I’ve been worried about Lowry’s health for almost 2 years now and it’s begining to look like he’s going to have a tough time coming back. I wish him the best but I don’ t think he can be counted on for anything that his point.
His decline has been pretty steady and I think the chances of ever trading him for anything is about 0%.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on May 1, 2008 7:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice Work Xanthan
I appreciate the work you do on the Giants pitchers. It’s great to have a clear picture of Lowry’s performance over the last few years.
I can see it on the field, and I “know” it’s going on, but it’s nice to have the “data”.
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
by nvsfg on May 1, 2008 8:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sucks.
I guess it just goes to show how volatile pitcher’s careers can be.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 1, 2008 8:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Shop for a ffith starter?
naaah, it’ll will just be the return of Zito (For a Cain, Tim, Jon, Misch, BZ rotation). If not he then Morris. If not he then Blownitez.
Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.
by kennv on May 1, 2008 8:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere on the DL...
...Kevin Correia clears his throat loudly.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on May 1, 2008 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
but how long
will it be until he’s back? Oblique strains tend to hang on a long time. (See: Noah Lowry 2006)
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, shopping for a 5th starter
on this team makes no sense…there are a few mediocre candidates at AAA like Palmer, Pereira,
and Santos….and Yabu is an option as well….if they did make a trade for 5th starter now, just have a flood of SP when they return from DL…i dont mind letting Zito hold down the 5th spot either….maybe the pressure
would be off
by slojoe on May 1, 2008 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but then we’d have to watch Zito pitch. I don’t want that, do you?
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 7:06 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotation depth is still pretty good. Misch is the same pitcher Lowry is, minus upside but plus health. Victor Santos is a serviceable fifth starter if needed. And hey, Zito’s still around in case we get really desperate.
by Evan on May 1, 2008 8:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, it will be Episode V: The Zito Walks More Hitters, I just don’t want to see it.
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 8:58 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Possibilities
Its already been said that Zito will only be held out of the rotation for 1 start, so once he comes back that solves the missing rotation spot.
I wish Pereira was pitching better because I’d like to see him get a chance at the end of the rotation. Another option that some may not have thought of is Geno Espenelli who has pitched exclusively in relief this year in AAA but has been used as a starter up until this year.
He’s currently pitching at: 1.15 ERA 13/1 K/BB 15.2 IP 12 H allowed
by Keenlow on May 1, 2008 9:10 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Where did you hear that?
I read this where Bochy says he hopes that he only misses one start, but haven’t seen anything that says he definitely would be back in the rotation.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on May 1, 2008 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s quite likely with Correia & Lowry on the DL, more likely at least, than calling up a nondescript arm & having to send a reliever down.
Proud owner of the most boring Username! Alex Hinshaw: Coming soon to a bullpen near you!
by GiantFan on May 2, 2008 2:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why not Merkin?
I realize that no one wants to keep jerkin’ Merkin around, but he pitched pretty damn good in that one emergency start this year. And yes, he has great value as a heat-throwing set-up guy. But if he could develop into a steady under-30 guy who can give you 5-6 innings at 94 mph every 5th day, isn’t that worth a try?
by Buck Henry on May 1, 2008 9:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
He is 19 months removed from TJ surgery and pitching extremely well. Sometimes I daydream about a rotation of Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez and Valdez. If Valdez did develop into a solid starter it would also ease the possibility of trading any of the other three starters for some quality talent. Just think what either a Cain or Sanchez could haul in return once they develop more. If SF didn’t want to trade either Cain or Sanchez then a Correia, healthy Lowry, Sosa, Tanner, Snyder, Alderson, Bummy or Pucetas could be dealt for some much needed talent.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like him
in the 7th inning role right now, as an apprenticeship for a setup and maybe closing job. It seems to me he could be a shut down closer , or at least a terrific set up man, in the not to distant future
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Value of starter vs reliever
Would believe his value to the organization would be greater as a very good starter vs shut down closer, or at least a terrific set up man? Do you think he cannot start and/or maintain stamina? Do you think SF does not have other comparable options of shut down closer , or at least a terrific set up man?
Having four (4) very good starters keeps the Giants in every game/series. Combining that with solid defense and you could have a playoff caliber team. Quality pitching can alleviate the team from having to have a potent offense – which we know is not present.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do worry
about Merking making the transition to a starting role. I agree that a starter is much more valuable than a reliever, but I just don’t know that he can start. As I recall (and this was a long time ago) didnt’ the Giants’ already convert him to the pen before TJ surgery?
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. He was a starter then sent to bullpen. Now that he is healthy again and dealing let’s get some more value from the fella.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
The value of a good starter is ALWAYS much better than the value of a good closer.
But the value of a hurt starter is much, much, much lower than the value of a good closer.
This is my thought process. I would be happy to see Merkin one day make the transition to starter if he’s capable, but we don’t even know if his arm can take a full season in relief yet. I say do what gives the guy the best chance at having the most success over a long time, and the thing that does that is being careful with him now.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on May 1, 2008 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thought the 2008 season was the "Let's Find Out What We Have Season"
This is the perfect season to find out a number of things. Can X play 2b, can Y be an everyday player and can Z pitch the 9th inning? Why not find out if Valdez can be a starter as originally thought. As jponry asks below: who says he’d be a very good starter? Don’t know but definitely would like to find out. She continues: he wasn’t exactly doing very well in the role before his TJ surgery.. True. My question is: Did his injury contribute to his lack of success? Let’s find out.
So they move him from 7th inning guy to starter – who pitches the 7th? Yabu, Zito, Hennessey, Misch, Foppert, Sadler, Hinshaw, Matos, Pichardo or Romo. Take your pick. A Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Valdez rotation would be a young, dynamic, talented, fun to watch, easy to root for and could be quite successful. Bring new meaning to King St.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who says he’d be a very good starter? he wasn’t exactly doing very well in the role before his TJ surgery.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 1, 2008 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I don’t see any indication that he has the repertoire of a starter. So far he’s just throwing the fastball and the splitter.
Also, while a starter is more valuable than a reliever, a good deep bullpen makes all the starters better, by allowing the manager to get them out of the game sooner. Which has the further benefit of keeping them healthier.
by Evan on May 1, 2008 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds as if you were talking about the 2007 Model of Jonathan Sanchez
“Yeah, I don’t see any indication that he has the repertoire of a starter. So far he’s just throwing the fastball and the …
Relief pitchers narrow the types of pitches they throw. Once in the rotation as a starter the repertoire grows to include some offspeed pitches, variants of FB and possibly a change.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Evan, I understand your point, but as with Sanchez, we’ll never get to see Merkin’s full bag of tricks, nor will he get to develop them, until he’s put into the rotation and given the chance to do so in a season that was originally thought to be a throwaway year. All I remember from that lone start was that they didn’t come close to adjusting to his movement and velocity.
If the Giants could build a base rotation of Cain/Lincecum/Sanchez/Valdez and have the rest of the starter possibilities as trade bait in packages at the deadline, they’d be sitting pretty for next year.
by Buck Henry on May 1, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that in principle. But consider the following counterarguments:
1. Valdez is not too far removed from major surgery.
2. There’s no indication that he has the third pitch that almost all starters need.
3. The last time he was successful as a starter was 2004, for a few weeks in the California League.
4. He’s a major contributor to the strong bullpen the crappy, horrible, unacceptable bullpen we have now. Do you really want to weaken that further?
5. He’s relatively new to the majors, and there’s a lot to learn about getting big-league hitters out. Why not let him do that slowly, building some success before he has to worry about getting them out two or three times in the same day?
6. The rotation is actually pretty crowded. We’ve got three aces, Correia is worthy of a spot when he gets back, Misch deserves a shot, Zito’s not going away, we may need to make room for Lowry eventually, Sabean could decide to promote Adam Cowart tomorrow, etc. Put Merkin in the rotation now, and if he’s not lights-out from the git-go he could end up on the starter/reliever SF/Fresno cross-dimensional yo-yo plan that Sanchez barely survived.
by Evan on May 1, 2008 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta say
I’m with you on this one, Evan.
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me three
And I don’t agree w/ this guy very often.
Let’s not get greedy w/ our young pitchers. By that logic, we had better get Walker and Wilson into the rotation as well.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 1, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget Zito! He’s part of our young bullpen
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Zito
plays for the Giants? I don’t seem to remember…
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Evan
We’ll agree to disagree here. I’m not clear how the surgery argument works in your favor when he would be pitching every 5th day as a starter rather than several times a week now. As for #2, I would argue that Kevin Correia doesn’t yet have three dependable pitches either and definitely can’t hit the mid-90’s, but is being allowed the chance to grow into a consistent starter if he can.
Anyway, I understand your points but simply disagree with you.
by Buck Henry on May 1, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will add
That Valdez is only beginning to demonstrate that he can be an effective reliever. Let’s not jump the gun on whether or not he can start just yet.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 1, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Valdez is not too far removed from major surgery.
2. There’s no indication that he has the third pitch that almost all starters need. Most relievers rely on their best two pitches. Nobody wants to be beat with their third pitch.
3. The last time he was successful as a starter was 2004, for a few weeks in the California League. True. They did move to bullpen but possibly because his arm was not healthy at the time.
4. He’s a major contributor to the strong bullpen the crappy, horrible, unacceptable bullpen we have now. Do you really want to weaken that further? Thought the consensus was we weren’t going to be good until 2010 at the earliest so a bullpen guy is not high priority. Plus there are many candidates to replace him.
5. He’s relatively new to the majors, and there’s a lot to learn about getting big-league hitters out. Why not let him do that slowly, building some success before he has to worry about getting them out two or three times in the same day? He has pitched in some high pressure situations already.
6. The rotation is actually pretty crowded. We’ve got three aces, Correia is worthy of a spot when he gets back, Misch deserves a shot, Zito’s not going away, we may need to make room for Lowry eventually, Sabean could decide to promote Adam Cowart tomorrow, etc. Put Merkin in the rotation now, and if he’s not lights-out from the git-go he could end up on the starter/reliever SF/Fresno cross-dimensional yo-yo plan that Sanchez barely survived. Rotation should be based on quality. Corriea could remain in rotation, could be late inning reliever or trade bait. Misch could be another LHP in pen. Lowry’s health is questionable.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1. Valdez is not too far removed from major surgery. Valdez had surgery on September 27, 2006 – 19 months ago.
by wilriv21 on May 1, 2008 3:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but everyone reacts differently to TJ surgery. I don’t think that the calender should make a difference. That said, I have no clue how his arm actually feels. I just like him in the pen and Misch in the rotation.
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a mental thing here, too..
The only thing I hate worse than the starter mailing it in is when the starter keeps us in the game/maintains the lead and the bullpen mails it in.
Right now, we have 3 very good chances out of 5 to win games. Taking Valdez out of the bullpen reduces each of those three chances a little but adds a 4th… I dunno
Be sure that bochy etc are considering this, and if they don’t there is probably good (health) reason.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 1, 2008 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like Merkin should work on a change-up to go with his FB and splitter, if he isn’t already. Seems like it’s the pitch most often added after a guy is already on the big team, so it must not be that hard to learn at this level.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In general I agree
One thing to consider though is how long it has been since the Giants fielded a team in contention for the post season with out 2-3 really good relievers? I am at a lose to name one year like that. Were as 3 or more really good relievers can cover a multitude of poor starts. Just ask the 1992 starters that were not named Swift or Burkett.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 1, 2008 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
2004?
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on May 1, 2008 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hermansen was good out of the ‘pen. In fact might be one of the reasons ( Bonds being the other) they reason the made a charge. Herges had a reasonable first half a season. Brower was decent. I have no idea how Felix posted the numbers he did. They might be a fit.
Of coarse a Dodger starting rotation of Weaver, Lima, Nomo ( age 35) and O. Perez might have had a big part in things as well. Except for Perez the other 3 might not have been fit for dog food.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 2:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe it's just my longstanding grudge against Matt Herges...
but a 4.89 ERA, 1.61 WHIP and .322 BAA aren’t really reasonable numbers for a reliever.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on May 2, 2008 5:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I did mentioned Herges because ,regardless if I like it or not, he was big part of that ‘pen in ‘04. I could hardly consider that year’s ‘Pen and not account for him.
His first half a just about serviceable with was 22 saves out of 34 games finished. That’s about a 65% conversion rate. Granted a couple of those finishing games were mop up situations rather then for the win. And I can’t remember any of the 22 saves that did not make me long for the final years of the Moon Man.
But that being said a dumpster dive guy , a guy that went through 4 organization already and was acquired for cash & another team being able to keep a rule 5 guy they drafted from the Giants that was reasonable production. He was serviceable. Serviceable, to me, is about what others call a D+ to C grade. Think of it as replacement level without using lesser franchises drained AAA clubs to lower the mean.
As a side not, to me, ERA is a on a reliever is about as useful as teats on a boar.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 9:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, you started out saying there was never a year where the Giants contended without 2 or 3 “really good” relievers, but now you’re including someone because he was “serviceable”, so it seems like you’re moving the goalposts a bit there.
Also, I don’t think a guy with a .322 BAA can ever be considered “serviceable”.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on May 2, 2008 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said " They might be a fit." to end that paragraph.
Basically I listed the main guys in that pen and a thumbnail what I thought of them and I could not refute groug suggestion on 2004.
I only went on about Herges because I was defending why I viewed him as serviceable. Not good. Just considering the GM was getting him for a guy he was letting rot in the minors ( thus valued low) so even herges Moon Man act was a better return was athen expected.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 9:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
while the 1992 refrence is spot on, the 2002 team with Worrell, Rodriguez, and Nen was as solid as you’ll find. Until…never mind.
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pfft. We already have a shutdown closer!
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One ticket please!
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 1, 2008 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am always ready to second guess ...
But I leave the distribution of who should start vs. relieve to the coaching staff. Obviously, some pitchers are going to be more useful as relievers than starters – I don’t think you can tell this from casual observation and stats.
Caveat: I do think that anyone who can pitch effectively for 1 inning in the major leagues can be a closer.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
by zenbitz on May 1, 2008 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
It’s kinda silly to think otherwise. If all effective releivers could be effective starters, then you wouldn’t end up with any effective relievers.
I’m more than happy to sit and watch merkin burn down the 7th all season.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 1, 2008 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't agree with you
There are to many guys who can pitch very well in the 7th or 8th,then try to close and fall apart. Remeber LaTroy Hawkins? He had teriffic stuff, especially when he was a Twin, but just couldn’t close. I do think things are a little different when you’re trying to get the last out. Some guys just can’t handle that.
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 7:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too many guys?
LaTroy Hawkins is one guy. I don’t necessarily disagree that there are some guys who might not be able to handle the situation. I disagree with the contention that the large majority of relief pitchers, ie too many guys, lack the mental ability to close.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on May 2, 2008 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds
like we actually agree, or are very close to it. I should’ve worded my response a little differently, but I don’t think anyone can do it. Plus, I have a need for my closer to have some sort of bad ass facial hair. Wilson needs to work on that.
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
People joked about Zito pulling an Ankiel and becoming a hitter, but Lowry always struck me as a guy who could be an everyday player if he put his mind to it. Dude’s an athlete. If he’s truly done, I could almost imagine him coming back as a catcher or something.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 9:55 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmmm....
Do you have a Newsletter ? Subscription Information Please :-)
Now playing 1B for the Giants….Noah Lowry !
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
by nvsfg on May 1, 2008 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are the Giants THAT devoid of prospects
That they need to convert pitchers into position players? I don’t think it’s THAT bad.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on May 1, 2008 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, it’d be fun.
Make me proud again Hen
by AndYourBirdCanSing on May 1, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey it worked for the Red Birds!
Besides last I looked Harper has yet to draw a walk in Fresno. Sabean you sure you don’t want the number for this Botts kid?
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 1, 2008 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see a left handed catcher
It would remind me of little league.
"Why you gotta be cardin' my hos?" - Charlie Hayes
by stevieg on May 1, 2008 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too. I’m left-handed and then wouldn’t even let me play catcher in LL. It was always either 1B, P or OF.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
my little brother is left handed, and he tried to play 2B one year. Right before the season we went to a clinic put on by the local college, and the middle infielders could not figure out how to turn the double play. It was a total hoot.
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d think a lefty SS might be okay on a doubleplay, but a lefty at 2B would be quite a circus.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on May 1, 2008 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lefty SS
I’ve played SS in softball and have learned:
- It certainly is an advantage on double-plays (both covering 2nd and throwing to 2nd)
- It’s a pretty big disadvantage having to try to backhand balls up the middle, but if you get it, throwing across your body is easier
- It’s a really big disadvantge on balls in the 5.5 hole; they’re to your glove hand, but your momentum and body angle making getting a throw off quickly REALLY tough. I’d usually have to spin 360 degrees to my right while transferring the ball to my throwing hand
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d usually have to spin 360 degrees to my right while transferring the ball to my throwing hand
You’re like the Omar of softball.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on May 1, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re assuming I did it with style and panache (and consistently made a good throw)!
Most of the SS I played was on a pretty crappy team of co-workers and I had the surest glove. (The king of crap!) They used to love watching me do the spin and would go “Ooo!” every time. One guy said I was “showing off” so I had to explain the mechanics to convince him and have him take practice grounders at 2nd and throw to 3rd for him to get it.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
wouldn’t you want to spin 180 degrees? Otherwise, you’d be throwing to 3B….I think. You lefty middle inflelders are to odd for me. Back to the outfield with you!
by tyrannoman on May 1, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point. It was more like 270 to 300 degrees.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on May 1, 2008 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere I have a book...
....of comic strips based on Ring Lardner’s “You Know Me Al”. The simile “screwy as a left handed third baseman” shows up a couple of times.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on May 2, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t quite understand how the same people (in the generic sense) who are outraged at Lincecum’s start-stop-start-pause-resume episode in LA and his sometimes hi8gh pitch counts, now espouse making a guy just back from TJ surgery, without even a year of MLB experience, into a starter – in his firsat year back.
by allfrank on May 1, 2008 2:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
the same people (in the generic sense)
ummm
Could you elaborate on this concept?
by Evan on May 2, 2008 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If there's one thing we've seen....
when a Ginat is injured and will only be out for ” a week”, or regardless of the initial estimate, they are coming off surgery, when the return is delayed for more than a day that whoever it is will be out 50x longer than originally planned. I concur that Lowry was already not doing well in the first place… it’s great to assume his increasing crapulence was because of some witch-doctor injury, but so far when the Ginats say someone’s return will be delayed, it’s code for “we’re hoping medical science invents a cure in the next 6 months”.
by natteringnabob on May 1, 2008 4:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
probably a blessing in disguise anyway
will let Misch get a good opportunity to see what he can do….maybe Merkin as a starter also….
by slojoe on May 1, 2008 5:35 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it is highly doubtful that young Noah will ever pitch consistently in the majors again. By consistently I mean 25 plus starts per year.
Its been a long time.
by Roy Hobbs on May 2, 2008 6:56 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Those 204 + innings with an average of slightly over 107 pitches an outing for 24 year old in his first full year in the majors looks real smart now doesn’t it?
By my quick adding the column of Pitches here ( http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=lowryno01&t=p&year=2005 ) he threw 3537 pitches as a starter in 2004. He averaged a bit over 17 pitches ( 3537/ 204.7 innings = 17.29 per inning) and he averaged 6.2 innings per start ( 204.7/ 33 = 6.2). 17.29 * 6.2 = 107.2 pitches . Just so people know were I got my numbers and correct me were appropriate.
Not that we have young starters now that this may, or may not, apply to. Not saying he would not have broke down regardless of use. But its enough to make this fan go "Hhhmmm."
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure I agree with the concept. 107 pitches per outing seem to be an okay number for a starter to me. Noah started in college and the minors, right? Why would you not pitch him, then? I understand it’s enough to make you pause, but pitcher’s do need to pitch.
If there was a way to measure pitches under stress, it would help, but then you’d have to create a proper definition for stress. I do believe that a stressful 20 pitch inning can take more out of an arm than a non stressful 20 pitch inning.
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t equate 1 inning of minor league ball to being equal to 1 inning of M.L.B ball. I just can’t in good conscious.
He had 89 inning in Fresno and 92 inning S.F during 2004 for a total of 181 pro innings. A 141 innings in the minors at age 22. Numbers lifted from here ( http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=30738 ). So to take a 24 year old in his first full big league season and make him throw 3500+ pitches is a little nuts to me. It not like his body & off day regeime has clearly him made him ready for such an increase in work load.
Its worth noting that ‘05 was the season with out Bonds. It is also worth noting that Lowry threw more off speed stuff then our current two Big guns.
As for you stress question I saw that opponents had Lowry in 157 PA’s in High leverage situation, 400 pa’s in medium leverage situations & 318 Pa’s in low leverage situations. Numbers lifted from( http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=lowryno01&year=2005 ) there.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Food for thought, for sure. By offspead do you mean change ups, or breaking balls? Change ups sholdn’t have the same wear on an arm as breaking balls do.
This is the big, dark nebula of pitching devolpment, to me. Is it the innings thrown in 2005, or the oblique strain leading to a change in mechanics? Or, is it none of the above?
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
More fun with raw data
By off speed I mean not fastballs.
Just for kicks Tim the Enchanter threw 2386 pitches in 146.3 innings of his 24 starts in his first full year of Big League ball. Which brakes down to 16.31 pitches per inning average and at an average 6.1 innings a start. He was age 23. Timmy game log info lifted from here ( http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/linceti01.shtml ).
Cain threw 3302 pitches in his first full year in the Big’s at age 21. 31 start ( 32 appearances) and logged 190.7 innings. Remove 2 innings & 20 pitches for a relief appearance Vs the Astros and get 3280 pitches in 188.7 innings as a starter. So roughly 17.38 pitches an inning and 6.09 innings a stat so roughly 106 ( 105.84) pitches in an average start. Alou was his first big league manager as well. Matt Cain game logs are here ( http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/gl.cgi?n1=cainma01&t=p&year=2006 ).
Cain had 145 innings in Fresno and 46.3 innings in S.F. at age 20 for 191 inning of pro ball in 2005. And 159 innings in the minors at age 19 in 2004. ( http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=17959 ). So his body had obviously been ramped up towards increase a bit more then Lowry.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Is it the innings thrown in 2005, or the oblique strain leading to a change in mechanics? Or, is it none of the above?"
A chicken or the egg type question. And it could very be a chained together parts of the same cycle that feed into each other.
Also I don’t think is the number of pitches per game as much as the accumulated wear & tear over several months. The same effect can be seen in platoon player or a minor league position who is forced into every day status. It just beats you down physically. When one is tired its much easy to make a mistake or put ones self to get hurt. Its human nature.
Good point on the change up but to my memory the fast ball is the lest wear & tear of them all. We asking a guy to make a major step in his game keeping the extra things he needs to do to a minimum tell he gets his feet under him & going is just common since.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One reason why
he had thrown relatively few innings in the minors, however, is that all of his minor league seasons were cut short with various arm ailments, which for me at least, throws some pause into seeing direct cause and effect at work between his ‘05 numbers and later years.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on May 2, 2008 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roger what kind of pause?
I am unsure if we mean it should have give the management pause?
Or Lowry would brake down anyways? Or something else entirely?
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I mean he was hurting frequently before ‘05, which makes me pause before assigning blame for ‘06-08 injuries to ‘05 innings.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on May 2, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes me think if he has a track record of wearing down , thus not getting full season of minor league work, then perhaps the team should not put him in a position to get worked so hard out has a player that has had the benefit of the that experience.
It should be surprising if he did not break down … no?
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on May 2, 2008 9:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What are you going to do with him, then? If you want any sort of return on investment, then you would have to start him until he breaks, right?
by tyrannoman on May 3, 2008 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's funny
I’ve said this a couple times recently and got jumped on a bit. The interesting thing about the story this week was that it implicitly showed the team had been lying through their teeth in the last story. Originally they had said that he delayed throwing off the mound and went for an MRI because he was feeling normal soreness, probably from ramping up his throwing regimen, and that the MRI had shown normal throwing-related inflamation. Now the story comes that he underwent the MRI because of a pins and needles sensation and they wanted to see if his nerves were functioning correctly—quite obviously directly related to the surgerical procedure and nothing to do at all with normal throwing sensations. This isn’t surprising but deserves to pointed out for those who tend to take official team statements at face value.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on May 2, 2008 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
We all know that these statements have to be taken with a grain of salt, though right? I don’t know if lying is the right term. Gamesmanship, perhaps.
by tyrannoman on May 2, 2008 12:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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