Worst GM Poll
by Salemicus on Apr 28, 2008 11:15 AM PDT
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Over at the Pirates blog - here.
It's got to the semi-finals, where it's our very own Brian Sabean taking part. This is actually Sabean's first match - as the number one seed to be worst GM (!) he got a bye in the first round, then he went through the second round unopposed as his opponent Wayne Krivsky got fired. So far Sabes has had it easy.
But now Sabean is up against Bill Bavasi - who deserves a lot of respect in this tournament, as a very bad GM in his own right. This will be no pushover, but Sabean is a gamer, so I'm sure he'll grit, hustle and bunt his way to a win.
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Sabean vs. Bavasi
Talk about irresistible force meets immovable object. I’m sure the Lookout Landing folks are all over this poll.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
They are...
Bavasi’s currently “ahead”
I was THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Apr 28, 2008 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Do you guys hate your GM or not?
Because those Lookout Landing readers have staked Bavasi to a lead.
reader (singular)
that’s all Corco, Bavasi was only carrying 15% of the vote before he started gaming the poll.
by JI on Apr 28, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Umm...
as much as we dislike Sabean, he’s fleeced their GM not once but twice. Wouldn’t their own GM be the #1 seed?
Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!
by UnleashTheGore on Apr 28, 2008 11:50 AM PDT reply actions
Littlefield
is no longer the Pirates’ GM. (I assume that’s who you’re referring to when you say ‘their GM’)
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
Well, their "GM"
the guy whom Sabean fleeced, is no longer a GM.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Dying sport
Worst GM polls are going downhill for the same reason as college basketball—all the really special competitors leave early.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 28, 2008 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
You know, this got me thinking
I used to consider Sabean a middling GM. He wasn’t near the top but he wasn’t really in the same class as the worst. But many of those who were worse than him have been fired. If you consider his performance recently, then he definately has to be close to the worst now. Though, I would probably put Bavasi below Sabean so he shouldn’t “win” this competition. Still, who else would rank below him now? I can’t really think of anyone besides Bavasi…
Only 946 games until the end of Zito's contract
OVERTHROW
THE BOURGEOISIE!!!
but seriously, a poll of fans giving an opinion of their general managers might be open to a wee bit of prejudice.
BROCK BOND LIKES HIS MARTINIS PUNCHED IN THE FACE, NOT STIRRED.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Apr 28, 2008 12:49 PM PDT reply actions
right. most fans proably don't like their GM
there are exceptions, though like Boston and Oakland and maybe a few others.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 28, 2008 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually, I’ve found the opposite to be true. (I’m the guy from Bucs Dugout who’s running this poll.) There’s no shortage of fans willing to defend Jim Hendry or Omar Minaya or whomever. And when Dave Littlefield was in charge of the Pirates, there was a small but vocal minority who defended him to the bitter end. It’s strange.
Then again, people like Bavasi and Sabean are probably completely beyond the pale, even for fans.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 28, 2008 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm probably one of those biased fans
I’ve been traumatized by Sabean and can’t imagine that most fans wouldn’t have some gripes with their GM. But I’m happy to stand corrected. Most GMs probably have a mixed bag of good and bad and inconsequential and there are grounds for defending and lambasting them all.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 28, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd love to
meet the Bucs fans who defended Littlefield after he traded away Rajai AND took on the remainder of Matt Morris’ salary. They’re probably the same people who think “Small Wonder” is the greatest sitcom in television history.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
got to be family members. no way they are ordinary fans.
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
Yeah, there were times when I’d get suspicious. And I think even the really hardcore Littlefield supporters were pretty meek and embarrassed by the end.
Really, though, some people just want to believe that the guys running their team are smart. I’m not sure why. Also, you have to consider that Cam Bonifay kept the bar pretty low.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 28, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
“Really, though, some people just want to believe that the guys running their team are smart. I’m not sure why.”
It’s for the same reason why so many convicts “find” religion behind bars—because if they didn’t, they’d have no hope at all. Remember Charlie, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 28, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Billy Corgan in Small Wonder FTW
Adopted father of the AnVil / GIANTSPACE™ returns!
by SoFa King Mike on Apr 28, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Err, Hendry and Minaya
have made their share of bad moves, they have also made their share of good moves. The fans I’ve seen who defend Minaya, are willing to balance the good with the bad.
Take Minaya. Trading Kris Benson for John Maine and Jorge Julio was a genius move. Trading Julio for El Duque was a good move. Trading Xavier Nady for Ollie Perez was a great move, precisely the kind of move that a GM should do, recognising that a young pitcher with great stuff is more valuable than an oldish corner OF who hits reasonably well but plays mediocre D. Trading Jae Seo for Duaner Sanchez was a good move, selling high on a finesse pitcher who had one very flukily good small sample that was WAY better than the rest of his career. Picking up Endy Chavez on the cheap was a nice little move. Picking up Jose Valentin on the cheap was a nice little move.
Refusing to get seriously involved with Zito, whether when Beane was trying to trade him, or when ZIto was a FA, was a good nonmove.
Bad moves: Not protecting Jesus Flores for the rule 5 draft was IDIOTIC, arguably the worst move Minaya has made as Mets GM. Trading Mike Cameron for Xavier Nady was a bad move, though that was mitigated by the fact that Cameron was unhappy after Beltran was signed and wanted out. Trading Heath Bell for Ben Johnson, bad move, Never really giving Jeff Keppinger a chance was a bad move. Choosing to keep the likes of Brady Clark over Ruben Gotay was a bad move. He traded Keppinger for Gotay, and then lost Gotay via waivers, ultimately the whole sequence was a bad move. Signing Schott Schoeneweiss, Foolishly believing that 18 innings in 2006 after which Guillermo Mota tested positive for steroids, represented Mota’s true talent. Trading Gaby Hernandez for Lo Duca was a somewhat poor move.
Short sighted win now move: trading Milledge for Church and Schneider. Church is actually a pretty decent player; he’s a very good defensive player.
I’m leaving out Beltran, Wagner, Santana, because some might argue that Minaya was only spending money when he made those moves. Though, considering what he gave up for Santana, that was a good move.
One comment about your choice of GMs: you really should have included every GM in MLB in your poll. Why is Kenny Williams in your list of worst GMs?
This comment about Jon Daniels:
Daniels won last round, so we’ve already talked about him some, but his basic situation is that he seems to be a perfectly intelligent, new-breed GMreflects your bias. Why should the fact that he is “intelligent” and a “new-breed GM” matter AT ALL? He has committed some AWFUL moves.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
1) Why would you assume I don’t have a bias? We all have biases.
2) Did you read the rest of that sentence? THE WHOLE SENTENCE is this:
Daniels won last round, so we’ve already talked about him some, but his basic situation is that he seems to be a perfectly intelligent, new-breed GM until it comes time to make a big trade, at which point he sniffs out bad ideas like a golden retriever in airport security.
Everything I’ve written about Daniels for this poll suggests I think he’s a bad GM who HAS, in fact, made some “awful moves,” and I seeded him fifth. You can take one quote out of context if that will make you feel better regarding your boy Minaya, but it’s not an especially honest way of arguing.
One comment about your choice of GMs: you really should have included every GM in MLB in your poll. Why is Kenny Williams in your list of worst GMs?
Would you like me to copy the post here for you? I think I explained it perfectly well the first time. :)
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 28, 2008 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Sorry if that’s a mean response, but I really don’t like to be quoted out of context like that.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 28, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
No apology required, IMO
That might be the worst case of taking a quote out of context I’ve ever seen on this site.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Apr 28, 2008 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions
That might be the worst case of taking a quote out of context I’ve ever seen
Ever, Josh? EVER???
I don’t buy it. Not one stupid itsy bit.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 28, 2008 7:10 PM PDT up reply actions
I buy stupid
You don’t need to buy it, howie! You’ve already got plenty!
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
But it was on sale
You can’t possibly ask me to pass up a two for the price of one, can you?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 29, 2008 1:04 AM PDT up reply actions
About why other GMs weren’t included, I did a post at the beginning about which GMs shouldn’t be included and solicited suggestions from my readers about where I might have gone wrong. Nobody had any problem with Williams, strangely.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 28, 2008 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Minaya's not my "boy"
If you disagree with what I posted about Minaya, refute it.
Yes, I read your post justifying not selecting certain GMs. I disagree with it. Your poll is at the very start, already skewed.
From your post on the GMs who were not selected
Mark Shapiro Indians Great track record
What has Shapiro done that Ken Williams has not done? Being much loved by statheads does not count.
Daniels
The Michael Young deal isn’t a complete mess yet.
Have you looked at Young’s D? He’s a 3b masquerading as a 2b. Every D metric has him as among the worst starting SS in MLB. Rangers fans give him ratings that have him comparable to a 3b on Tango’s fan scouting reports.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
I'm not particularly a Sabean fan...
...but I have some kneejerk reaction against voting for him as worst GM. Is there something wrong with me? Can it be cured with medication? Does the medication offer any entertaining side-effects?
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
I think the Zito signing
Which at the moment is looking like the worst signing in history sealed his fate
Thanks for that, by the way.
Bavasi wanted Zito, but Sabean outbid him. There, but for the grace of fools, go I.
GM'S
This is a little OT but Ned Colleti, who interned at Sabean’s feet, is building quite a rep for himself. Consider Jason Schmidt, Juan Pierre and Andrew Jones. At least he inherited a farm system with some position prospects.
RicoColletti’s in the other semifinal matchup, against Ed Wade. That one will be up by tomorrow.
by Charlie Wilmoth on Apr 28, 2008 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
GMs doing what the owners tell them to do.
sure, not all owners are George Steinbrenner, but there probably are a bunch of meddling owners. I think that Magowan is probably one of those. However, there is rarely any evidence that an owner has directly interfered and ordered his GM to get a certain guy or get rid of a certain guy or make a certain trade.
Sabean defenders, the few that exist, frequently opine that the Giants ownership ordered him to get Zito and keep Bonds after the offers to Soriano and Lee were rejected or Rowand this season. But, there is very little proof of that. Sure, the owners have to sign off on the big contracts (and even the little ones) but it certainly is the job of the GM to inform the owner that a contract is bad or negotiate on behalf of the owners and get the player at a reasonable price. If Magowan says, go get Zito to be the face of the franchise, Sabean has to come back and say that he wants 6 or 7 years at $15-$20M per over time and given his age and rate of decline in certain skills, that would be a horrible signing (perhaps not in years 1 or 2, but certainly after year 3, when most of the money is paid).
A GM can’t blindly go sign a player like Zito and return to ownership and say “you said go get Zito at any cost and that’s what I did so its your fault if he doesn’t work out.” There was a serious error in judgment by ownership and Sabean in making that deal. If Sabean was telling ownership that this was a great deal, he should be fired. If he wasn’t telling ownership that this was a horrible deal, he should be fired. If that contract was the best he could do in negotiations, he should be fired.
Other than that, there’s serious reasons to think Sabean IS the worst. It isn’t just the moves he made (the trade that shall not be named, hiring Alou, hiring Bochy, Hillenbrand trade, Tucker signing, etc.) but the moves he didn’t make: namely, he refused to even consider signing Vlad so we could have multiple mediocre players instead (and then he ripped the true fans for being pissed about it), failing to trade Schmidt and Durham at the end of 2006 when both could have brought something in return all because he thought the Giants were contenders (!) in the West, and frequently drafting “signable” guys instead of better players, failing to develop any position players of worth and just generally not preparing in advance for the decline of the 40 year olds like Bonds and Vizquel.
Granted, he has made some good moves, Matt Williams trade, deadline deals during pennant races that helped us win and he had some fairly decent drafts (namely 2001, 2002 and 2006 (b/c of Timmy)), and those shouldn’t be discounted, but the bottom line is that he has presided over the decline of a great franchise and turned it into a laughingstock and he deserves much of the blame for that….not a contract extension.
Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 28, 2008 1:33 PM PDT reply actions
Finals
How awesome will it be if it were Sabean and Colletti in the finals? Isn’t it funny how Bavasi, Sabean and to an extent Colletti still have jobs when Krivsky, whose record is not that bad is fired? I mean, 90% of knowledgeable fans could see how the Horacio Ramirez for Rafael Soriano trade was gonna end up. How do you get away with that unscathed? Not to mention the trade that shall not be named, although some people on this board to my utter amazement is willing to downgrade it to no longer one of the worst trades in history to just a bad trade just because Liriano is injured.
Sabean should be sending alimony payments or what not to Littlefield for saving his job. Can you imagine if we had a rotation with both Zito and Morris? Two pitchers taking up nearly 1/3 of the entire payroll, with a 0-11 record and bloated ERAs? Not to mention that would probably mean no Sanchez in the rotation. And who was the only other GM willing to give a similar contract to Zito? You guessed it, Bavasi. It’s all related, stupidity comes full circle, circle of life, ad nauseam.
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
I vote
that it wasn’t the worst trade ever because of the Adrian Gonzolez et al for Adam Eaton et al trade. That was a much worse trade for the Rangers. And don’t make me bring up Milt Pappas!
+1
I’d much rather have Adrian Gonzalez and Chris Young than Joe Nathan, Liriano and Boof.
Sabean will have to settle for the second worst trade in modern baseball history.
rfloh pointed out that that trade is actually still far more even than the Nathan, Liriano and Boof trade.
that said, the Nathan/Liriano/Boof trade was longer ago and I don’t think the Rangers have any of the players they got in the trade any longer, so the gap could widen.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
Yeah, it’s not close. Thus far, the AJ trade has been much worse by any measurement.
But which one will play out worse from here on out? Starting today, would you rather have Nathan, Liriano, and Boof or Gonzalez and Young? Nathan’s contract extension confuses matters, but I think I’d still go with the Twins group.
IT IS ONE OF THE WORST TRADES EVER!!!!
Okay, had to get that one off my chest. When I say one of the worst, I mean in the modern baseball era, circa since I’ve been watching baseball, say 25 years. Yes, there have been many bad trades, but there are SO many reasons why this is one of the worst, quantitatively, qualitatively, cause and effect, symbolic historical turning point as in like Archduke Ferdinand’s assassination being the cause of WWII, and it continues to get worse every year so you can debate whether this is THE worst trade ever, but there’s no debate as to whether is is ONE of the worst trades ever.
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
WWI
Ferdinand’s assassination was the trigger for WWI not WWII. And I wouldn’t call it the cause of WWI, either. There were many factors which led to WWI. The assassination was only the trigger for WWI.
Only 946 games until the end of Zito's contract
But but. . . .
Military experts said the war would be over so quickly! I mean, those guys are always right! In and out they say. . . . wait, oh god damnit, now I sound like a hippie making a parallel to current events – unintended, unintended. . .although. . .history can be funny like that. . .
For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .
by WilltheThrill on Apr 28, 2008 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, what you said.
my point being the trade that shall be named was a trigger for many bad things, although I wouldn’t blame those who think is was the cause.
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance
If one were to exercise the upmost care in being pedantic . . .
One might of have said: The assassination was NOT THE only [snip] trigger for WWI.
For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .
by WilltheThrill on Apr 28, 2008 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, it's "utmost"
I was THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Apr 28, 2008 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike brings his uttermost to this blog
(Upmost of the night pondering ways to improve it.)
;-)
I voted Sabean… but I got to say Bavasi’s case is stronger than I thought. Sabean has all those old crazy moves that worked out somehow. Sabeans’ blunders are worse than Bavasis… but does Bavasi have any sucesses?
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
Signing Free Agents and deliberately giving up Draft Picks
This has to be one of Sabean’s biggest sins.
Sabean has the lead now. I don’t know whether to vote for him or Bavasi. They’re both pretty bad. Besides, I’m not sure I would want to have our team win that “honor.” At least it would be winning something, though. We’re not going to win much this year.
Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
Bavasi is worse
I had to say Bavasi is actually worse. Although Sabean has made some terrible moves—including two of the worst in the last twenty years of baseball—there is no way to overlook the fact that the Giants were a competitive team for seven years with a world series appearance.
To ignore accomplishments while focusing on blunders is cherry-picking.
On the other hand Bavasi has basically accomplished nothing.
I don’t know about that. I give a lot more credit for the Giant’s successes to Barry Bonds than Brian Sabean.
Make me proud again Hen
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Apr 29, 2008 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
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