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Zzzzzz

The Barry Zito deal was supposed to help the team in the short-term, but be a disaster in the long-term. Going into 2007, the team was counting on Ray Durham, Rich Aurilia, and Omar Vizquel to repeat their 2006 production and provide just enough offense to support Barry Bonds.

SPOILER ALERT (highlight the text with your mouse to reveal a spoiler about the 2007 season): It didn’t work out.

In hindsight, the folks who were clamoring for a complete dismantling of the Giants after the 2005 season – Bonds or no – were right. But while I never understood the Dave Roberts contract, I wasn’t totally against the last gasp at respectability with guys like Durham, Aurilia, and Ryan Klesko. Bonds had one season left, so even though any shot at contention relied on old-timers repeating past glories, I (wrongly) thought the rewards outweighed the risks.

Zito fit into that mindset. The contract was an obvious stinker from day one, but in the short-term it wasn’t crazy to think he’d help the If Brigade contend. If Aurilia repeated his road numbers from 2006, if Durham repeated his 2006, if Klesko could add anything to the first base mix, if Bonds stayed healthy, and if, if, if, then, sure, it’d be nice to have a quality starter like Zito around. We’d start worrying about 2013 in 2012.

Now we have the worst of all worlds. If you were frothing at the mouth because of his declining strikeout rate, you get bonus mock-GM points, but Zito’s strikeout rate in 2006 wasn’t too far off from 2005’s rate, and that 2006 K-rate was actually better than in 2003. In between, Zito kept pumping out seasons with an ERA+ above 100 in 200+ innings. The decline in strikeouts was a red flag when considering a seven-year deal, for sure, but it wasn’t a harbinger of a total immolation within the first two years.

The problem is that Zito left his league-average fastball in Oakland. He isn’t hurt; at least, not that we know of. There isn’t a noticeable difference in his mechanics. So he’ll just keep going out there and getting slapped around like Kirk Rueter in his end days. The Giants won’t consider Zito to be a sunk cost, as they have five more years to figure out if he can get his fastball back.

SPOILER ALERT (highlight the text with your mouse to reveal a spoiler about pitchers): Pitchers generally never get their fastballs back once the fastballs are gone.

There’s nothing the Giants can do. Moving him to the bullpen won’t help. Even if the front office understands the concept that the Giants can pay Zito $100M to hurt the team or $100M to go away, it’s still way too premature to give up on him. The team can’t trade him. They can’t ask him to fake an injury and let him rest for a year. Nothing makes sense. This might be the ugliest situation the franchise has ever faced.

If the Giants aren’t going anywhere soon – and most of us agree that they aren’t – we’ll just have to think of Zito the same way we think of Jose Castillo or Dan Ortmeier: They aren’t likely to help the club ever contend, but this is the time to find out. Keep throwing Zito out there. When the Giants start to sniff contention, the Giants will need to consider some scorched-roster alternatives. For now, at least Zito is helping the Giants’ draft position.

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First!

I love the spoiler alerts…and I didn’t think I’d ever be impressed as much as yesterday’s animated poll results.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 23, 2008 1:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

"There’s nothing the Giants can do."

I disagree. If we’re automatically conceding his starts as automatic losses, maybe we can turn them into Charlie-Finley-esque circuses to help attract crowds.
For example, you know that Zito may be starting today, but you don’t know WHERE. Only to arrive at the ballpark to discover he’s playing CF and batting in the 6 spot. Stay tuned, in his next start, we won’t pull him from the game when he blows up…we’ll make him catch the bullpen pitchers who have to clean up his mess!! In June, Zito will be sport the craziest facial hair imaginable, where fans can vote on what color to dye it.
I’d come to the ballpark for all of those.

You get the point. For 126milion i could care less if we’re making a mockery of him.
If the team has little to no hope of winning a ballgame anyways, let’s at least see them have some g’damn fun!

by ExcuseMeSwing on Apr 23, 2008 1:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

genius

give this man as job in SFG marketing!!

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 24, 2008 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Lowry

When Noah Lowry returns from injury, what do the Giants do? I’d much rather see a Cain – Lincecum – Sanchez – Correia – Lowry rotation than any rotation with Zito included.

Could Zito be placed on the DL with “fastballitis”?

by SheboyganBratwurst on Apr 23, 2008 1:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I’d much rather see a Cain-Lincecum-Sanchez-Correia-Goofus rotation than any rotation with Zito included!

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 23, 2008 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, my Little Leaguers were lighting me up in BP yesterday.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 23, 2008 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure...

you just have to tweak your windeup a little. You know, or go play some guitar. Or something.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 23, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

nah, just bag the doliies and count the dough

by wilriv21 on Apr 23, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

maybe he should learn to pitch right handed.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Apr 23, 2008 1:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Won't Help?

There’s nothing the Giants can do. Moving him to the bullpen won’t help.

Won’t help what? Won’t help him or the team?

The Giants have a couple of days off early in May (the 1st and the 5th) Zito should skip a turn. It Won’t Hurt.

by wilriv21 on Apr 23, 2008 1:52 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Suddenly...

a Jerome Williams minor league contract isn’t sounding so bad, hmm?

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 23, 2008 2:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't It Be Nice...

...if we could invent a sort of Reverse Spoiler Alert?
Where if you highlit Zito he’d disappear?

Aaron "Swag" Rowand

by victor frankenstein on Apr 23, 2008 2:12 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

How did that title not lead to a Brian Wilson joke?

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on Apr 23, 2008 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not that I'm supporting Zito's recent performances

But when the hell did three runs become “run support”? I heard Krukow last night, and on KNBR this morning say that Zito had finally received some run support but couldn’t close the deal.

Yes, the team did grant him the lead early in the game, but is three runs really run support? Oy vey!

"Boo Lakers! Boo Kobe! Go Kings! Go Giants! Boo Dodgers!" - my 5 year-old daughter - 4/15/08

by otis29 on Apr 23, 2008 2:13 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I noticed that too. You know the offense is truly pathetic when three runs is considered a huge amount of run support.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Apr 23, 2008 2:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

In this offense...

You better believe that staking a pitcher to an early 3 run lead is good run support. Quality pitchers should be able to win the majority of games in which they get handed that kind of lead. $9000000000000000000000000000000000 pitchers REALLY have no excuse for blowing it.

by ololo3 on Apr 24, 2008 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What worries me besides his performance is how his contract will affect the Giants’ ability to lock up Cain and Lincecum past these first few years. I do realize that Cain does have a contract signed, but once they enter those arbitration years, I don’t want to lose them just because we spent too much on a crappy pitcher and can’t compete with offers from the Yankees or some other rich team. I guess Rowand may have affected this issue just as much, but at least he’s been hitting some.

Less arm, more talk. Raisingcain is a GAMER.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa

by raisingcain on Apr 23, 2008 2:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Pish posh

Oh I can’t imagine the Giants being too stupid to pay what it takes for those two, if they continue their development.

by achiappanza on Apr 23, 2008 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Since 2002 I have seen Zito's fastball decline every season

In 2006 towards the end of the season his fastballs were between 85 and 86 occasionally pumping it up to 88. Did the Gianst not have fsn bay area or scouts? Because if they did they would have seen a pitcher with curve ball that does not have the snap it once did and a fastball that is little league. The sad part about it is the Giants have 2 aces in Cain and Lincecum or however you spell his name and Lowry can be a solid pitcher so getting Zito seemed strange to me but I am glad the A’s do not have him anymore

by Athletic on Apr 23, 2008 2:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Tim on XM

There was an interview with Tim Lincecum on the Dibble and Kennedy show on XM just now. Tim, asked about Zito, said:

“He’s going to find it. I mean, he’s a Cy Young winner, he knows what he’s doing out there. It’s just about making the adjustment.”

The rest of the interview was mainly about Frank Sinatra and Call of Duty IV

I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused!

by PLUChris on Apr 23, 2008 2:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Tim on XM

There was an interview with Tim Lincecum on the Dibble and Kennedy show on XM just now. Tim, asked about Zito, said:

“He’s going to find it. I mean, he’s a Cy Young winner, he knows what he’s doing out there. It’s just about making the adjustment.”

The rest of the interview was mainly about Frank Sinatra and Call of Duty IV

I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused!

by PLUChris on Apr 23, 2008 2:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

If Zito

were solidly at 105 ERA+, 5+ K/9, 1.4 WHIP, 200 IP for 2007, then he might be tradable (if we agreed to eat $6-10m of yearly salary) to a high payroll team like NYY or the Angeles Angels who could use an inning muncher.

But ummmm yeah at 73 ERA+, 1.792 WHIP, 3.51 K/9 – he’s not going anywhere.

I find myself wondering if Zito is just aware of the shame/pressure of his situation as we are, and is trying too hard, pushing, messing with his delivery too much, trying something anything everything to give a ROI …

by SnowLeopard on Apr 23, 2008 2:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

6 man rotation

I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer; I only realized yesterday that the 6-man rotation talk was just a way to cut down on Zito’s starts. Of course Lowry actually has to come back, so let’s reserve any judgment about that (although even letting Yabuuuuuu run out there every sixth day would probably at least cut down on Z’s start numbers.

There’s a lot of loose talk about Rueter and now Jamie Moyer, but I don’t know that Zito has that kind of control in the first place. And Rueter seemed to manage to last through a lot of his terrible starts. I don’t know if he just served the ball up to cut down pitch counts or what, but whatever it was Zito isn’t going to be doing that any time soon. Right now comparing him to Moyer is an insult to Moyer. The guy won 20 games at the ages of 38 and 40. HGH or no, he’s always given up a lot of runs but he’s also not stuck his bullpen with 6 innings of mop-up every game.

So, here’s my answer. If the Ginats won’t pay him $14M to pitch in Fresno, or to pitch in Texas or whatever, then either he becomes the mop-up guy or he becomes the designated mop-up starter. With a designated mop-up reliever to accompany him in games. Yabuuuuu or Henny Penny should know that, when Zito goes, they’ll be going too. Yes, it becomes a waste of two roster spots instead of one, but that’s a small price to pay for “saving face”, which they’ve clearly already decided to do.

PS. I accidentally typed “doo” at the end of that last sentence, which Dr. Freud might have diagnosed as a slip.

by natteringnabob on Apr 24, 2008 6:55 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I pretty much agree with what you are saying here.

The one clarification I would like to add is in regard to Moyer as a best case scenario of the Zito. Moyer had some pretty Krapastic (now with extra nausea!) seasons in his late 20’s and did not log over 160 innings tell he was 34. And that was the ‘97 Mariners. A classic play off race but a team the , outside of The Unit, was relying on Fasserro & Moyer to not have to march out 42 year old D. Martinez & 23 year old Wolcott more often then absolutely necessary.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 24, 2008 7:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I realize that this year is a lost cause

And throwing Zito out there start after start hoping he finds it may be the right thing to do (wins/losses don’t matter anyway), I think the fundamental thing that bothers me is a lack of acknowledgement on managements part as to the situation.

If the team were to come out and say “Zito’s in trouble, this contract may have been a mistake – and we are going to try to salvage any last bit of value from it that we can” then I would be okay with Zito out there pitching every 5 days, and I would even pull for the guy and probably tout his progress.

But they are still treating him like their #1 guy – and that just bugs me. I want to see some sort of acknowledgement from management that Zito is in trouble, and that they are treating him accordingly.

Team is 8-7 in games not started buy guys named Zito

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 24, 2008 7:05 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

To tie in with your other thread

The Ginats cut him the same check every month whether he’s 0-20 and the bullpen is burned out from covering up for his disasters, or whether he’s sitting in the bullpen playing the guitar. Maybe Henny Penny can learn to play the tambourine. To me, I’d like to think that the other 24 roster spots might manage to (as you point out) play better without his millstone starts dragging them down every fifth day.

Actually, with this team if he can go three innings fairly regularly he’d be useful in mop-up. But we know that day’s a long way off.

I don’t understand it with Durham, or Edgardo Alfonzo, or whoever. I understand the rich person’s perspective (and prerogative) of “I paid a lot for that, you’d better use it”, but other than that I just cannot understand the idea that paying the Matt Morris/Zito/Alfonzo/Marvin Benard money somehow means that player has to start all the time. If those people were box office draws that would be a different analysis, but to me the money’s gone, so other than informing potential future decisions it seems totally irrelevant.

by natteringnabob on Apr 24, 2008 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

What to do with Zito

Short term solution: Skip his turn in the rotation during the next off day. Move everyone else up so that Zito now becomes the #5 starter instead of the #1. His 6 innings and 4 runs allowed will stand a better chance against Mark Redman and Hong-Chih Kuo than it would against Webb and Peavy.

Long term solution: Hire Timmy’s dad to teach Barry new pitching mechanics. As the pitching article states, Zito does not use his body efficiently to throw his pitches. If you compare his delivery to Santana’s in the article, and other pictures of Lincecum and even Cain and measure his stride, you will notice how inferior Zito looks. The longer your stride, the closer you are to the plate when you throw the pitch. Also, in order to produce this stride angle you must engage your hips more aggressively, and as is true in many sports, hip rotation is the most efficient source of power in the body.
Maybe when Lowry comes back from the DL we can place Zito on the MDL (mentally disabled list) and have him work on his mechanics with Chris Lincecum for a month or two. If Zito can increase his stride angle and create more rotational force in his motion, he has a chance to get his fastball back. Unfortunately, Zito’s dad still thinks he is the greatest thing since sliced bread and would probably attempt to block any drastic changes to his wonderful son’s “perfect mechanics” (as stated in the article). At any rate, something needs to be done because otherwise Zito will continue to lose every single game.

by joebirdie3 on Apr 24, 2008 8:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

This is why signing such lucrative, long term contracts is so fucking risky...

The free agent game is really another intricacy of baseball that adds interest for the fans, but, man, sometimes you just can’t help but thinking it would be nice if when a player signs a deal for the type of money Zito is getting, there were some sort of minimum performance level that the player has to meet in order to get the full salary. Oh well. My vote for now: Just release him. Eat the contract. If nothing else, it would send one hell of a message.

by ololo3 on Apr 24, 2008 9:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Drastic times call for drastic solutions

I know y’all ain’t going to like this, but what about trading Zito and Lincecum for an old bat rack? Isn’t there a well heeled team that would take a front of the rotation starter and a back of the rotation one for $126 mil? Boston paid $113 mil for Dice-K and Lincecum is way better than him. You can even eat some of the money if you have to.

by smedley on Apr 24, 2008 7:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Why in fucks sake would you do that?

Whatever Zito’s negative to the team, it certainly does not cancel out Lincecum’s upside. That would make absolutely zero financial sense.

You are one of those people who bought a 0% down interest only house huh? :)

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 25, 2008 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why say no so fast? Shouldn’t the answer be based on what is the return value?

by wilriv21 on Apr 25, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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