Uh so, like - Zito? - McCovey Chronicles

Uh so, like - Zito?

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 7:17 AM PDT Comment 80 comments

I am typically not a knee-jerk fan, and I tend to be extremely patient with players and understand the ups and downs of performance.

I applauded the Zito aquisition at the time - I was excited, and to me the money was a demonstration of ownerships willingness to "pay to play". I thought it was good, if not great.

But like dude, holy shit - Zito is looking big-time done. I was watching him last night, and while It didn't seem like he was pitching horribly, and I was starting to feel kinda positive.. I mean, he only gave up 4 runs against the ML's most powerful lineup and stuff. Not so bad.

But then as I got out of the car this morning to walk into work, I realized... He didn't even last 4 innings! It hit me like a ton of bricks - this guy freaking sucks. I have zero faith in him to turn it around AT ALL anymore and am completely disheartend by the idea of watching him for the next 36 years (or whatever it is).

He's 0-5. He's the first Giants pitcher go to 0-5 in EIGHTY ONE FLIPPIN YEARS. That's a whole new level of suck. I'm pretty sure even Brett Tomko would have eeked out a win by now.

If Baseball were a true meritocracy, Zito would be on the express train to back of the bullpen town. I want to know why on earth anyone as supposedly "smart" (they must be to have gotten to the position they are in) doesn't understand that just because you paid for something - you don't need to use it.

So, I introduce you to something I have run into often in business, and I think applies to baseball quite well.

"Loss aversion and the sunk cost fallacy

Many people have strong misgivings about "wasting" resources. This is called "loss aversion". In the above example involving a non-refundable movie ticket, many people, for example, would feel obliged to go to the movie despite not really wanting to, because doing otherwise would be wasting the ticket price; they feel they passed the point of no return. This is sometimes called the sunk cost fallacy. Economists would label this behavior "irrational": It is inefficient because it misallocates resources by depending on information that is irrelevant to the decision being made. Colloquially, this is known as "throwing good money after bad".[6]

This line of thinking, in turn, may reflect a nonstandard measure of utility, which is ultimately subjective and unique to the consumer. A ticket-buyer who purchases a ticket to a bad movie in advance, makes a semi-public commitment to watching it. To leave early is to make this lapse of judgement manifest to strangers, an appearance he may rationally choose to avoid. Alternatively, he may take pride in having recognised the opportunity cost of the alternative use of time.

The idea of sunk costs is often employed when analyzing business decisions. A common example of a sunk cost for a business is the promotion of a brand name. This type of marketing incurs costs that cannot normally be recovered. It is not typically possible to later "demote" one's brand names in exchange for cash.

The sunk cost fallacy is also sometimes known as the "Concorde Effect", referring to the fact that the British and French governments continued to fund the joint development of Concorde even after it became apparent that there was no longer an economic case for the aircraft. The project was regarded privately by the British government as a "commercial disaster" which should never have been started, and was almost cancelled, but political and legal issues ultimately made it impossible for either government to pull out." - wikipedia

Playing ANYONE based on salary as opposed to merit is a text book example of this, and I can't beleive that a business savvy team owner would be ignorant to such a simple pitfall. How the hell did they make all that money in the first place?

:puke: Maybe They DFA'ed Raj just so someone else will claim hin, and then Sabes can pull a rabbit out of a hat and trade Zito to that team in exchange for Raj, make Raj Davis the most loved Giant ever.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Also, I want to know

How do they not know what’s going to happen when he goes out there? He can’t throw strikes and can’t throw his curve for strikes. This should be readily apparant in off-day throwing sessions and other types of practice. If he can’t do it warming up in the bullpen, why on earth would you send him out there to hope it magically happens during the game?

That, from a coaching standpoint, I just dont understand. I mean, If some dude got up there and wiffed every pitch in batting practice after starting the season in a 2 for 40 slump – don’t you think you would hesistate to start him? Maybe he needs some special work?

Oh, wait – Aurilia still gets play time. I think I understand now…

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 7:23 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The filp side

is, where else is he going to get his work? It’s not like the Giants’ have another Cain waiting in the clubhouse to take his rotation spot. If you’re making the case he should skip a start or two, I can buy into that, but really what else are you going to do? Make him a long reliver? DFA him and eat $110 mil?

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

See, That's the thing...

Who cares what you are paying him. There is nothing you can do about that – continuing to start a guy just because you have to pay him is the equivilent of throwing good money after bad.

If you bought a car, and it didn’t run – would you say “well fuck, I spent the money to buy this and now it turns out it doesn’t run. I HAVE to keep trying to drive it because I paid for it”. Or – would you say “oops, I’m an idiot, I wasted money on that – but now I need to find a car that works regardless of how much I paid for this hulk.”

It’s the sunk cost fallacy – the correct path is always the one that gets you to your desired position with the lowest cost FROM THIS POINT FORWARD. It doesn’t matter what you have spent in the past.

For the Giants, winning is the goal, and the lowest cost option right now to win more games is to no start Zito.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

So you're in

favor of giving him his outright release? He was not good last season, but he has only made 5 starts this year. Your care example is interesting. I think if I buy a brand new Caddy STS and it does not run, I will put more energy and effort into getting that car running than if I bought a 1972 Datsun B210. I just think it’s rash to dump him at this point. DL, side sessions, skipping a start are all avenues to explore before dumping him, I believe.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not a very big fan of this analogy, nor am I particularly loving the sunk cost fallacy comparisons… A movie ticket costs all of $10. If you multiply that $10 by one million, you’ll get how much Zito made last year. There’s a minor difference in value. Even with a car, if I bought a new car and it immediately doesn’t run, I’m not going to go buy another new car, I’m going to try and get the one I just bought fixed. The reason is, I don’t have the money to throw around at multiple cars. Another $20-30K versus maybe $1000 (depending on warranty) makes this a no-brainer.

I agree that Zito is a sunk cost right now, but he’s definitely getting paid WAY too much money to just throw him away. I think that would be bad business. Sending him to the bullpen, putting him on the DL if they find something is actually wrong with him, these are definitely options to explore, but banishment isn’t something anyone would do in this case.

One thing to keep in mind, however, is that I have absolutely zero business sense, so there’s a good chance I’m completely wrong.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 23, 2008 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, you are fundamentally misunderstanding (and by that, falling victim to) the fallacy.

If the current item has no current value to you (which a pitcher who cannot pitch well enough to win reasonably resembles to a baseball team) then it does not matter how much you spent on it, it is worth nothing.

Now, clearly In the real world this is a little fuzzier. Do I think we should DFA Zito? No way. Do I think we should get him out of the starting rotation and on a minor leage re-assignment until he (if ever) demonstrates he can pitch again? Absolutely.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Part of our discussion may be the use of value. Zito has very little value to the team right now, but that does not mean that he will not in the future. Zito has no options, so he cannot be sent down to work things out, unless he’s on a rehab start. If he needs 15 days off due to sore gastrointestinal suckiness, I’m all for sticking him on the 15-day. right now, as a matter of fact. I’m not sure having Zito be the long man in the bullpen will help him, or the club either. It’s very murkey, and difficult when a talent like Zito falls apart like this. I knew he wouldn’t be worth the money, but I don’t htink anyone could forsee a collapse like this.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, the fallacy suggests

That the only factors that should figure into DFA or not are his performance, past performance, and assessment of his ability to perform in the future. Money spent still has no bearing. Don’t get me wrong, this is a very hard thing for people to understand. Money spent IMPLIES a previous favorable assessment of performance. If that previous assessment is for some reason deemed no longer valid and a new assessment is made, then money spent has NOTHING to do with the decision to be made.

My thoughts about Zito have nothing to do with money spent. I belive Zito deserves “time” to work it out based not on his contract, but on his past performance, his age relative to decline, and my estimation of his ability to regain performance.

Because he WAS so good, and hasn’t hit any sort of obvious hurdle (age, injury, etc) I think there is a reasonable chance of his being able to regain some performance. Because the cost of letting him do so is relatively low – it is the right thing to do.

That cost is only low, however, if he is on the DL and not starting games.

Past money spent has nothing to do with decisions made starting the day after that money was spent. I know – it’s hard to swallow.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

First off...

I’m not sure how I’m falling victim to the fallacy. I have no control over whether or not he starts, relieves, DFAs, or DLs. So I’d like to think I’m not exactly a victim of the fallacy. I completely understand where you’re coming from, but I think the analogies you made were completely off base with the current situation, or just not good in the first place. And throwing him away when he’s known to be a second-half pitcher isn’t good sense either.

The Zito problem definitely seems to be partially based on economics. If Kevin Correia were pitching this ineffectively, he’d be gone by now, because the lost cost wouldn’t be that severe. But a $17mil pitcher who’s got a track record of turning it around in the second half isn’t something you just abandon on the side of the freeway like a hillbilly ditching a Big Gulp cup. So part of the problem is based on economics, and part of it is based on trend. So the question shouldn’t go right to, how soon do we ditch him, but how do we fix the problem.

But here’s what should really aggravate you the most… I’m arguing an economic philosophy with you, simply based on the examples you’d provided, and my grasp of economics is pretty not great. So right now, even I’M asking myself why I’m doing this… The answer may surprise you… At 11.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 23, 2008 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think he should be DFA'ed

And If Kevin Correia was an ex Cy young winner and was having a bad season, you should be as tolerant with him.

The cost is the same for either. Money has nothing to do with any decisions at this point. I don’t think zito should be DFA’ed, but that has nothing to do with money (altho that would be embarassing for the franchise). It has to do with past performance and the likelyhood of his regaining some value – which I think is reasonably high.

I just don’t think he should be in the rotation until he does. Right now, we are essentially sacraficing every 5th game.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m comparing Zito to Correia based on their previous successes. Because Correia is cheap and doesn’t have the track record that Zito has, he’d be out of the rotation already. Zito is paid a lot of money AND has the track record. That’s the comparison.

Regarding the money, it’s not like DFA’ing Zito means we’re not paying him anymore. We’d still owe him a ton of money. I’m in complete agreement with you that the money we’ll be spending on him moving forward shouldn’t guarantee him a spot in the rotation. I’m a firm believer in putting your best foot forward. What should make the difference is a) is there a pitcher available who could improve on Zito’s production? (yes), b) would a move to the bullpen help Zito straighten out what he’s doing wrong? (questionable), c) is there an injury that could put him on the DL? (who knows), and d) is this typical first-half lumps that he always takes before straightening out his approach?

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 23, 2008 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A modest proposal

Why can’t we send him to the minors? I mean, publicly acknowledge the fact that something is wrong with his mechanics, and say that in the minors he’ll have the opportunity to figure it out without hurting the big club. I understand it would be a bitter pill for Zito to swallow, but at this point he might actually be relieved at being able to pitch in a less-tense situation.

by clevername on Apr 23, 2008 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

By the title I thought you were going to introduce a plan to use Zito as a food source.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 23, 2008 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm vegan

but i’d make an exception for Zito.

Unless you think his suck could be contagious.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 23, 2008 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The suck

It might cross the blood-brain barrier…

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 23, 2008 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Human Suck Disease

...is very contagious. I’m wearing gloves just typing this.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Apr 23, 2008 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Im sure B-Zit has no options. The only way for him to pitch in the minors without acceptiing being sent down (and being exposed to waivers – not that anyone would claim him) would be to DL him, then send him down for a rehab start.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is exposing Zito to waivers really a problem. If another team claimed him and his salary, hooray!

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 23, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

THAT

Is an excellent point!

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

no one would touch him. Or get even close to touching him,. Hell, I’d keep running him through waivers for the rest of the season praying someone would get a little drunk on a Sunday night, head into the office on Monday morning, and pick him up while still severley hung over. Not that I endorse that kind of behavior.

by tyrannoman on Apr 25, 2008 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody claimed Manny Ramirez a couple of years ago

And Zito’s no Manny

Only 949 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Apr 25, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually...

I’m sure he does.

He was called up in mid-2000 just a year or so after being drafted. He went straight into the rotation and never looked back. I’m virtually certain that he has all 3 options remaining. Certainly no less than 2. (Barry Bonds, by way of comparison, still has all three options left.)

Now, this is somewhat of a moot point, because I’m sure he has enough service time to decline the option and get released instead, and I believe he’d still get his money. But if Zito agreed to it, it would be allowable within the rules framework. He would have to be exposed to “optional waivers,” but a. no one is ever claimed on those anyway, and b. if he was, it would solve the problem.

Your 2008 Athletics: It's Nothing Personal.

by PaulThomas on Apr 23, 2008 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He cannot

be optioned without his consent. Once a player has more than 5 years of service time, he has to agree to be sent down to the minors. If he refuses the optional assignment he must be offered his release. He would still get his contract, unless some other team gets him when he is put on release waivers, and he rejects the claim from that other team.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Apr 24, 2008 2:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's sad

to see how far B-Zit has fallen. How is this the same guy who duled Jonan Santana to a playoff win about, what, 20 months ago? He’s staked to a 3 run lead and promptly gives up a 2-out 2 RBI single to the 7th place hitter…with the 8th place hitter (Stephen Drew, a left handed hitter) to a guy who just owns him. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Barry end up with elbow tendonities, or a pulled sacajawea, or anything to get him on the DL and get away for a bit.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 7:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Good post...

Love the economic analysis, as I am an economist myself. I’ve been thinking about this for a while… but great job putting it into words.

My advice for the Giants? Just let the man be himself. It couldn’t hurt. If he wants to go surfing, let him surf..Let him be who you wanted him to be when you signed him. When you take away constants in someone’s life, it can seriously affect other apects of their life as well. Let Zito be Zito. I’ve heard him say multiple times that the Giants refusal to let him surf has affected him over his time in San Francisco. (claims ranging from reduced arm strength to fragil psyche)

Bringing up another economic idiom, what is the “opportunity cost” of letting Zito surf? If he gets injured, you still have to pay him, but at least you wont be paying for his weekly meltdowns. There can even be benefits that arise from an injury. We might find another young pitcher that can be serviceable (Correia) or better here in the majors, we wont have to worry about the whole 6 man rotation thing when Lowry comes back, Lincecum can move into his rightful place as staff “ace”, Zito could have some time to clear his head and work on his mechanics, and the fans wouldn’t be tourmented with 3.2 inning starts and blown leads.

Granted, I know he sucks. But I’ve always been a big Zito fan (mostly because of the fact that we shared the same number), but also because he seemed like a cool guy who was comfortable in his own skin, and didn’t care what other people thought. We need that Barry Zito on the hill, not self-concious, nervous, twitchy Zito 2.0.

I am officially starting the “Hang Ten for Zito” Campaign. Please join. If I have some free time at work today, I’ll photoshop a logo.

Angel Villalona: Get Mean!

by AngelintheInfield on Apr 23, 2008 7:52 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

and maybe

the landlord will take care of this whole mess. Anyone want to take Barry to Salmon Creek? Anyone?

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 8:01 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was @ Salmon Creek last weekend.

Windy as shit.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I fully support this

I did not know he was forbidden from surfing and will go out on a limb and say that is the cause for his problems.

Surfing is a strange sport that many people will never understand until they do it. Taking it away from someone could really mess them up. It is extremely good for you physically, but the mental part is what keeps people doing it.

Poor Zito…

He should just start doing it anyway. It’s not like it is very dangerous if you are careful. I wonder if he has thought, “if I only I could just go out…”

by positiveuphemism on Apr 23, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought

you were in favor of the shark attack senario.

by tyrannoman on Apr 25, 2008 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If he does get hurt surfing he can just say he fell off his truck or something….

by paboperfecto on Apr 28, 2008 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, he was just washing his truck in the surf. Who hasn’t done that? Then the Giants’ can void the rest of his contract!

by tyrannoman on Apr 28, 2008 7:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You lost me at “I applauded the Zito aquisition at the time”.

..so allow me to present Tim Lincecum and Matt Cain as two sweet, sweet bottles of warming hooch.

by Cookyman on Apr 23, 2008 8:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Indeed

At the time of the signing, it was clearly one of the worst contracts given out in history.

by mxmob33 on Apr 23, 2008 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah...

That was one of the most confounding free agent signings I’d ever seen Sabean make.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 23, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dude,

He’s making the needed adjustments, he’s making progress, he’s almost right there.

Giants Trivia Question!

1. Who holds the record for most losses in a season by a modern Giants pitcher (1956-2008)?

2. Who holds the all-time record for losses by a pitcher in the Giants franchise (SF and NY, 1901-2008)?

http://www.baycityball.com

by xanthan on Apr 23, 2008 8:15 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

He’s making the needed adjustments, he’s making progress, he’s almost right there.

Prior to last night that was a true statement. Last night Zito took a step backward. His next turn is Sunday at home vs the Reds. Let’s see how he does and then what the organization does after that game. Do they have him skip a turn, do they work on the side, do they send to bullpen etc

by wilriv21 on Apr 23, 2008 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

wait a sec

If 1956 is the start of the modern era, I should probably be dead. Nevertheless:

1. Ray Sadecki? 12-18 in ‘68. Can’t find anyone else with more than 17 (Perry in ‘67, LaPoint in ‘85).

2. Some bum named Mathewson.

Twenty-seven years of waiting has come to an end.

by trapper on Apr 24, 2008 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are correct, sir!

http://www.baycityball.com

by xanthan on Apr 25, 2008 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not exactly the question asked, but...

...I think Ron Bryant (3-15 in ‘74) gets the franchise title for worst overall W-L record. Mark Davis (5-17 in 84) makes it close.

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 25, 2008 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

ZITOWN3D!

...I bet that’s what Boras is thinking.

by WTF on Apr 23, 2008 8:41 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

The losses are one thing

The fact that he seems incapable of going 6 or 7 innings per start anymore are a bigger concern. He was partially signed as an innings eater, whatever the flawed logic behind that argument might be. And he’s not eating innings. The bullpen is.

In fairness, this is not just a Zito problem. Right now Tim Lincecum is the only Giants starter who you feel fairly confident can go 6 or 7 innings without the pitch count becoming an issue. But if you’re paying Zito to keep you in the game and not wear down your bullpen, then you’re definitely not getting your money’s worth.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 23, 2008 10:33 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

He Clearly lacks the command to pitch effectively in the Major Leagues right now

Fastball velocity be damned, if he can’t locate his curveball he’s nothing more than a bad BP pitcher.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

A small cause for optimism

Zito 2005-2007

March-April
3-14 with 5.69 ERA

May-October
38-22 with 3.69 ERA

by SnowLeopard on Apr 23, 2008 11:08 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Those

are horrendous numbers. May the trend continue!

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Still a tad too early to give up entirely on him, but when Lowry comes back, it’ll be a good excuse to pull him from the rotation and work on stuff. It looks to me like a combination of physical and mental troubles that are compounding each other.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 23, 2008 11:13 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

...but...

...the Concorde was cool.

No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball

by Skaldheim on Apr 23, 2008 11:22 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

On Further Review

This contract was even worse:

Mike Hampton
Signed 8-year, $121 million contract with Rockies prior to 2001; 1 year, $15 million remaining, plus a $6 million buyout on the $20 million option for 2009.

Now I feel better. Or not.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 11:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Barry Zito

Mike Hampton with a guitar (i forget whose sig that was)

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 23, 2008 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Jake’s. I think he might be JakeS now.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 23, 2008 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No..

Not worse.

1st year ERA+
Hampton 98
Zito 98

2nd year ERA+
Hampton 78
Zito Current 73

3rd year ERA+
Hampton 112

4th Year ERA+
Hampton 101

5th Year ERA+
Hampton 121 (half year injured)

6th & 7th Years Injured

And I’m not sure if he’ll follow Hampton and increase or not. Essentially we’re paying a bit less (taking inflation into account) for the same production (minus the hitting of course). I don’t think he’ll get to be an average pitcher again, the time to trade him a la Hampton is soon because he may get injured like hampton and be virtually untradeable.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Apr 23, 2008 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

$121 mil in 2000 dollars is quite a bit more than $126 mil in 2007 dollars, right? You also seem to be assuming that Zito will be injured in a similar fashion to Hampton. I think by the end of the contract Zito will be league average, but I may be engaging in wishful thinking.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thing to keep in mind with Hampton

There’s insurance for injuries. There’s, AFAIK, no insurance for sucking. Hampton being chronically injured has meant that much of his salary is being covered by insurance.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Apr 24, 2008 2:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure..

Last I heard insurance on a contract wasn’t worth the money because it was so expensive in itself.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Apr 24, 2008 9:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While I don’t know about Hampton specifically, I know a lot of clubs don’t pay the insurance on the contracts. Like WalrusMan said, it isn’t worth the money, and I do remember an article a couple of years ago (sorry, I can’t remember where) that said insurance companies would not even touch a contract over three years anymore.

by tyrannoman on Apr 25, 2008 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Some of the Braves portion of Hampton's

contract is covered by insurance. From MLB.com

When Hampton missed all of the 2006 season, insurance picked up a significant portion of his $13.5 million salary. There’s a belief that under some circumstances insurance could cover some of this year’s $14.5 million salary. But Schuerholz chose not to comment on this.

FWIW, I’ve seen Braves fans on BBTF and various other sites claim that the policy covers his entire contract, and is not a year to year thing.

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Apr 25, 2008 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

interesting

but it still does not change the fact it was a horrible contract.

by tyrannoman on Apr 27, 2008 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think we should ship Zito out the door

What I do think is we should stop starting him just because of his salary. That makes no sense in any realm except one of trying to cover up for your fuckup.

DL him, Put him in the bullpen, anything to let him figure out what’s wrong, and if he can ever pitch effectively again.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 11:39 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

This I agree with.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 23, 2008 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While I completely agree that watchiing Zito is like having bamboo driven under your fingernails, I don’t know if he should be out of the rotation right now. I am assuming this is a play ‘em and see what you get kind of year, but how is Zito going to unearth his lost stuff in the ‘pen not pitching? I’m in for the DL idea, but I just can’t get on board with the bullpen idea.

How about a Zito for Pierre trade, then DFA Pierre? Yeah, I don’t think Ned’s that dumb either.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno, they signed Schmidt...

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

now somebody is thinking inside the box

by wilriv21 on Apr 23, 2008 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While you are fundamentally right from a #'s perspective

In that starting him may make sense because W/L don’t mean shit this year and it’s basically all practice. However I do think that from the fan’s standpoint W/L do still mean something.

No matter how much I tell myself it doesn’t matter, it still burns my ass to see the Giants lose. When it’s due to something I consider to be a managerial decision, it REALLY bothers me.

And at the end of the day, the team has a responsibility to the fans. Without us, they have nothing.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 23, 2008 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can’t agree more. I hurts when they lose. Last night I was ripping up flooring from my kitchen, and it was actually quite useful to have Zito barfing all over the mound.

by tyrannoman on Apr 23, 2008 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree Zito should be dropped from the rotation

No velocity + No command = Someone who shouldn’t be pitching in the major leagues.

Maybe the DL is the right move. Zito’s always wanting to tweak and mess with his motion and delivery. The DL would give him the perfect opportunity to do so. I don’t think banishment to the bullpen or to Fresno are realistic (cathartic, though it would surely be).

In any case, I think I’d even rather have Yabu in the rotation right now over Zito. Seriously.

That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

by tobias on Apr 23, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zito is the starting equivalent to Trevor Hoffman…if Barry can’t pin-point his fastball on the corners and set-up his breaking stuff, hitters will sit and wait to pick him apart. Because the fastball isn’t worth a tinkers damn and never has. Hoffman’s ungodly change-up has made his 89 mph fastball look like the same thing for the past nine years. But when that thing is 76 mph and drops, hitters chase that crap like 38 year old guys to a 20 year old stripper on the 4th of July.

Sabean knee-jerked on Zito because he promised a free agent splash and saw Carlos Lee go to the Astros and went to the old reliable, “we got a former Cy Young winner” line. My opinion on why Zito sucks…he’s adjusting too much, he feels the pressure of the contract at every start and it has all cumulated in a huge skull fuck. He needs to be traded or be handled like a real pitcher and not Mr. I Have to Solve Every Problem Every time I take the Mound. The guy is a pitcher…he sounds like he’s trying to cure cancer with his problems. It’s time for the K.I.S.S. method.

F’ the economics of this. This is sports and sports is a business. Every team makes bad financial decisions. Show me a team that makes great financial decisions without an albatross. I didn’t know Zito was Michael Eisner or another CEO that gets a balloon payment just to retire. Who wouldn’t want to be Barry Zito if the Giants just flat cut him and another MLB club gave him $2 million to finish out the year. If Bartolo Colon can eat his way in and out of the league and get a minor league deal with the Red Sox, don’t spit fandom diatribe that Zito won’t get a look somewhere else.

it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Apr 24, 2008 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Meant to reply. Aaaarrrrggghhhh!!

That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

by tobias on Apr 24, 2008 9:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think I’m starting to agree with you about the mental part of Zito’s pitching. I was thinking he would get over that hump this year, but he still looks lost on the mound.

by tyrannoman on Apr 25, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just curious but why the 4th of July?

Funny that you compare Zito to Trevor Hoffman. I was just thinking the other day that he was the pitching equivalent to Rich Aurilia.

To me, the key question is, is there any chance Zito can re-discover his former velocity? If the answer is ‘yes’, then the Giants should do whatever they can to get him straightened out. I just don’t think one of the things they should do is keep trotting him out there every fifth day.

On the other hand, if Zito’s velocity is gone forever, and if it can’t be replaced by some magical appropriation of Madduxian command and movement, then the Giants will need to go ahead and cut their losses. This would mean Sabean finding other things Zito could do to earn his $126 million. Maybe he could write and perform jingles for their next ad campaign. Or at least he could throw BP.

That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

by tobias on Apr 24, 2008 9:06 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Through the Looking-glass

Why hasn’t Righetti been able to fix Humpty Dumpty? I’m no expert on pitching mechanics, but isn’t he supposed
to be as part of his job description? If Righetti isn’t qualified to give Humpty Dumpty advice then perhaps Giants
management needs to look elsewhere and bring in another outside consultant(s) to render a second or even a third opinion.

Humpty’s W/L record doesn’t concern me given the team’s lack of run support. However, his lack of concentration
(1st inning blues—bad inning, etc.) and loss of velocity should be addressed in a meaningful way. Standing around with our thumbs up our asses muttering, “Well, he has always had a problem with the first inning…” or “He’s always been a second-half pitcher” is defeatist in nature if one never asks WHY.

By this I don’t mean WHY in the bitchey, whiney fan-sense that all of us seem to have grown accustomed to. I mean WHY in the professional, analytical sense that could and should IMHO come into play when a $126M investment is at risk. There are experts in such matters so why don’t the Giants prevail upon one/two or however many it takes to straighten Humpty out?

by lettinitfly on Apr 24, 2008 7:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s funny how many starting pitchers have difficulty in the 1st. Justin Verlander is a great example of this. He’s varied his warm up routine, tried throwing a simulated inning the the bullpen, all sorts of different ideas and none have seemed to work. I think blameing Reghetti is a little out of left field.

by tyrannoman on Apr 25, 2008 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can never get a good shot

Off the first T.

Probablty the same thing :)

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 25, 2008 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Probablty of me hitting my first shot on the blog is roughly Equvlnt.

by Moggeee on Apr 26, 2008 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

My only question right now with Zito is this

Will he be the highest paid 20 game loser in history or will the Giants cut bait and shut him down before this could happen?

Only 949 games until the end of Zito's contract

by thehavenot on Apr 25, 2008 11:49 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Zito

He’s making national news, along with Durham:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/spin/story/10798519

Thought you guys might enjoy it.

by giants9107 on Apr 26, 2008 11:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It’s nice to see that Hampton is making more than Zito this year, I guess things could be worse.

by paboperfecto on Apr 28, 2008 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Salaries are another link from that post, here’s the direct way:

http://cbs.sportsline.com/mlb/salaries/top50

by paboperfecto on Apr 28, 2008 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

the fastball

ain’t comin’ back, folks.

Therefore, the only reasonable path to effectiveness for Zito is to regain control and break on his curveball.

So, in effect, the BEST-case scenario for Zito is to become….Jamie Moyer.

I’ll start drinking now.

I ♥ Eugenifred Bowkmeier.

by juanboy on Apr 28, 2008 7:32 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Sadly

if Zito pitches like Moyer it’ll be a HUGE step up.

Leave the bottle.

by tyrannoman on Apr 28, 2008 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Viewpoint from across the bay

Don’t hate me because I am an A’s fan but I feel for you. Having watched Zito since he came up it was quite clear to me the last two years here he had lost his curve. You have remarked about his duel with Santana, yes that was a great game, but he was blasted by the Tigers in the ALCS, out by the third inning. He never had a great fast ball, and that may be OK in the AL but the NL is a fastball league. I feel bad for Zito, and Giant fans having to suffer with this. Zito is very “mental” he needs to do his thing as someone touched on earlier. If the management wants to help him they should get Randy Jones involved. He worked with Zito and seemed to get him back on track. I hope you did’nt get a lemon from us.

Stomp,em, stomp the piss out of em.Then pound the budweiser after the game. Joe Schultz Seattle Piolts Mgr 1969

by billyball1981 on Apr 28, 2008 7:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs