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Bring me the head (and other assorted body parts) of Jose Vizcaino

The most common rebuttal to the position that Brian Bocock shouldn't be in the majors is this:

The Giants are supposed to be rebuilding, so what harm is there in seeing what the kid can do?

A major league team shouldn't just be afraid of putting a young player on the major league roster because their performance might hurt the efforts of the team to win. There are development issues as well.  Even polished first-round picks from Miami or Stanford will need time to adjust to professional baseball. They'll see pitches that are located better and thrown harder, and they'll have to adjust with a wood bat. No one disagrees with this so far.

But what happens if a player isn't given time to adjust? Some people are of the mind that either a player is going to eventually adjust, or he isn't. If you throw a player into a position in which they'll likely fail, they'll take their lumps, but they'll come out the other side stronger for the experience.

I can't imagine that the above opinion can be applied universally. I'm always wary about venturing into this kind of discussion. I played baseball for over a decade, but I was only able to drive myself to a couple of those games, so take everything from this point on with a grain of salt. But while some players can stink for their first few years -- Omar Vizquel is one example -- and come out of the stink just fine, some players will respond negatively to what is surely the first set of baseball-related struggles they've ever known. The response doesn't have to manifest itself in self-doubt or depression; it can manifest itself in a changed approach or altered swing that has more to do with preventing short-term embarrassment than it does with long-term development.

I can almost see the argument that Bocock isn't going to be negatively affected by struggling in the majors. He isn't expected to hit right now, so the pressure's off, and he can work with what are ostensibly the best professional hitting coaches the organization can offer. I disagree strongly, but I can see the argument.

But Manny Burriss? Really? It wasn't enough to have one shortstop who struggled mightily in A-ball rushed straight to the majors, but we needed a backup shortstop who had the same A-ball struggles? It makes perfect sense. That way, one can develop by missing everything that's thrown at him, and the other one can develop by sitting on the bench. Ingenious!

I still have hopes for both Bocock and Burriss -- just because they struggled in A-ball doesn't mean they won't be fantastic shortstops. Maybe they will and maybe they won't, but the current setup isn't likely to help the development of either one. There's a good chance that rushing them will actually hurt their development.

Rebuilding is more than looking at the ages of the players in the starting lineup. You can't just field a lineup made from the first nine position players drafted in June, sit back, and say "we're rebuilding! Yayyyy!" It would be a failure on multiple levels to have Jose Vizcaino, Neifi Perez, or Royce Clayton starting for a team in the middle of a rebuilding process, but it's a much, much bigger failure to have no other options to start at short than two kids who struggled against the California League. Their service-time clocks have started long before they needed to, and they've been put into a position of almost-guaranteed short-term failure.

Yeah, I know. But this is the most baffling pair of roster decisions since...well...ever. The front office didn't want to trade for a young shortstop with some upper-level success, like Ronny Cedeno, Ben Zobrist, or Brent Lillibridge. Fine. Maybe the price was too high. The front office doesn't trust Ivan Ochoa to help in any capacity. Okay. Be that way. That leaves only one reasonable option: Find Jose Vizcaino, sign him, and get the two young shortstops back to a level that will help their development.

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I agree, how about this guy?? He is not Vizcaino but the same logic would apply.

Juan Castro-SS-Reds

Reds designated infielder Juan Castro for assignment.
The only surprise is that this happened before Alex Gonzalez returned. It’s example No. 3,129 of why it’s a bad idea to give bench players multiyear contracts. The Reds got a .162 average over the course of 99 at-bats after signing Castro to a two-year, $2 million extension just before the end of the 2006 season. His departure means the Reds will be without a legitimate backup shortstop for now. Jerry Hairston Jr. seems likely to get the few innings there that don’t go to Jeff Keppinger.

Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: One of the few reasons to watch this year.

by sfgreg on Apr 21, 2008 3:14 PM PDT   0 recs

Move Castillo to short, Velez to third.

Done.

Derin McMains had five fingers, but he only used three.

by oooreebay on Apr 21, 2008 3:25 PM PDT   0 recs

I’d love to see this.

Hell, I’d be happy if they just put Castillo at short and Richie at 3rd. But no, screw with our youth. Thanks bri bri.

Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.

by Andy from DC on Apr 21, 2008 3:27 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

clank!

you can't block the Bocock

by oldjacket on Apr 21, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

speed or defense!

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 3:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It should not have been either Brian Bocock or Manny Burris. Instead the organization pulls the infamous double whammy to provide the Giants faithful with the Brian Bocock AND Manny Burriss show.

Juan Castro can pick-it with the best of them, however, it is too late the roster damage has already been done.

When does John Bowker hit again?

by wilriv21 on Apr 21, 2008 3:26 PM PDT   0 recs

Vizcaino?

Him?

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 21, 2008 3:32 PM PDT   0 recs

Where is he now?

When trying to locate Vizcaino’s current whereabouts, you need to go online and do a goggle search.

I’m here all week.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 21, 2008 3:32 PM PDT   0 recs

i lowell'd

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 3:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Is a goggle search

Kind of like a “gaggle search”? Is this some sort of superior duck-run search engine that will soon be selling for $500/share?

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 21, 2008 3:52 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A gaggle search produces waterfowl and a goggle search produces Chris Sabo.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 22, 2008 11:03 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

The thing that is the most galling about all of this

to me, anyway, is that there is no SS option anywhere in this organization between the aged (yet still awesome!) Omar and the super-duper green Burriss and Bocock twins. That’s simply inexcusable farm system management.

Ridonkulous.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 3:34 PM PDT   0 recs

What else is Ivan Ochoa if not an SS option? He’s not the future, so presumably he’s a part of this organization specifically as an In Case of Emergency Break Glass player. Sure, he’s the worst case scenario for the team after Vizquel went on the shelf, Frandsen couldn’t hack it at short, Frandsen went on the shelf, and Rich Aurilia no longer had the arm or the bat to play the position.

Am less concerned about Bocock or Burriss starting their service time than the fact this whole debacle - as you say, inexcusable farm system management - gets lost in a haze of, Hey, We’re Playing Kids! Isn’t That What You Fans Want?

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 21, 2008 3:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

begs the question

does anyone know why Ochoa wasn’t called up in lieu of Burrcock?

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 4:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

his name isn't as fun to say as Bocock

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 4:04 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabean thought it was Alex Ochoa playing in Fresno, and for once he assumed we had enough outfielders.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 21, 2008 4:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m pretty sure Sabean NEVER thinks we have enough outfielders.

Proud supporter of the Fightin' Hydrants.

by Little Napoleon on Apr 21, 2008 4:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabes thought it was Lorena Ochoa.

Ryan Paul: Two four-letter words are better than one.

by The Enchanter on Apr 21, 2008 9:34 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

It just seems so silly to start these players’ service time clocks and options and whatnot so early, especially when they’re not major league ready.

I still can’t believe Sabean was planning on going into the season with no one but Kevin Frandsen as a backup SS for a 40+ year old though.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 3:34 PM PDT   0 recs

It began before that

The problem began when Sabean had a very early signing of the aging Omar Vizquel rather than shop around for a new SS.

by wilriv21 on Apr 21, 2008 3:36 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

But if he’d acquired another SS, would we still have space on the 40-man for the 7th outfielder?

by jae on Apr 21, 2008 4:33 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

While Understanding The Conventional Wisdom

from which you speak I must disagree. It is not like these two are just past high school. They are both turn 23 this year. Starting their option clock this year just doesn’t have the impact you fear. If they are not good enough to truely be major leaguers before their option clock expires (2011 at the earliest) do you really think they ever will? Likewise I do not see how getting a part of this year in the majors will have any negative impact of the development of either. It shows them both how far they have to go and they will still have 3 years to get there.

This Just Ain’t The Big Deal You All Are Making Of It!

by giantsrainman on Apr 21, 2008 3:37 PM PDT   0 recs

not having a viable MLB shortstop on a MLB team

is, in fact, a big deal.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 3:42 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Not to cheapen the %age system, but...

One million percent agree, dog!

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 21, 2008 4:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

If they are not good enough to truly be major leaguers before their option clock expires (2011 at the earliest) do you really think they ever will?

But what’s the upside to starting the clock right now?

by Grant on Apr 21, 2008 3:43 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

... and they’ll have to adjust with a wood bat.

I wonder why it’s been so hard for Bocock.

by withclubsauce on Apr 21, 2008 3:38 PM PDT   0 recs

Yeah

Playing with wood can be very distracting.

2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!

by Goofus on Apr 21, 2008 3:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

http://www.taketheaction.com/

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 3:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah...

not even going to follow that link…

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 21, 2008 3:59 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

SFW

honest

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 4:02 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Jesus F@#$%ing Christ.

I realize now that I am TRULY locked in a downward spiral.

Aaron "Swag" Rowand

by victor frankenstein on Apr 22, 2008 10:09 AM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree

I rarely disagree with Grant but, in this case, I don’t have a problem with Bocock playing every day. Bringing up Burriss is a mistake… that I agree with. But Bocock hasn’t shown signs of frustation. In fact, I think he’s looked better at the plate in recent games. Look at some of the names being thrown around as options. I mean, Vizcaino? Most of the guys that we could bring in at this point are not a sure bet to hit much higher than .225. Plus, none of them are as good as Bocock is defensively.

This season that’s all I want from my shortstop. Great defense, some walks in front of the pitcher, the occasional bunt and some lucky slap singles here and there. Is it a joke that Bocock is all we had in the tank in an emergency? Absolutely. But, all things considered, he’s giving us about what we would have received from Vizquel and about what we could expect from any of those other names when you factor in defense.

by saveuszito on Apr 21, 2008 3:54 PM PDT   0 recs

We could always...

trade Sanchez for Cody Ransom.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 21, 2008 3:56 PM PDT   0 recs

A Title Reference..

To our own John “The Baptist” Bowker?

by mxmob33 on Apr 21, 2008 3:56 PM PDT   0 recs

::golf clap::

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 21, 2008 3:57 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I loled irl.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 4:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

By the way...

fantastic choice for a nickname. Rolls off the tongue.

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 21, 2008 4:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

he's got to hit one in the Cove

before he earns the nickname

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 4:07 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Baptising Baseballs in the Cove...

In the name of the GodFather (Willie), The Son (Barry) and the Gause Ghost?

by mxmob33 on Apr 21, 2008 4:41 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I prefer the nickname "Long" John Bowker

in reference to his homeruns. I don’t know what she’ll say.

Bonds stands alone.

Proud adopted parent of future big league slugger Thomas Neal

by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 21, 2008 4:10 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

That's what...

dammit.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 4:11 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"Sloop John B"?

Sorry, I was listening to Pet Sounds this weekend and that song made me think of Bowker.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 21, 2008 4:14 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

"This is the worst trip I've ever been on"?

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 4:15 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Amen, Brother.

Check out Burriss’ top 10 comparable players by PECOTA.

1 Wylie Campbell
2 Shawn Livsey
3 Freddie Bynum
4 Chone Figgins
5 Juan Francia
6 Willie Bloomquist
7 Cleatus Davidson
8 Justin Baughman
9 Alfredo Amezaga
10 Chris Burke

Not much success outside of Figgins.

I have the feeling that after all the years of gripping about a veteran-centric team, Sabean is promoting everyone and anyone from A-ball that he can find.

“You like young guys, huh?”

http://www.baycityball.com

by xanthan on Apr 21, 2008 4:15 PM PDT   0 recs

Willie Bloomquist is off the charts wrt grit though!

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 4:16 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

He's no Cleatus Davidson!

http://www.baycityball.com

by xanthan on Apr 21, 2008 4:17 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 21, 2008 4:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

A ten percent chance of getting Chone Figgins is better than I would have expected, actually.

by Evan on Apr 21, 2008 4:29 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I also disagree with Grant

Bocock is 22, not 17. Is bringing him up this year the best option in a perfect world? No. Was it the best option in the realistic world? Maybe – No one else in the farm looked worth shit and the price of other options may have been too high. I think Bococks development won’t be stunted at all really. Of course, that’s just my opinion and only time will tell (maybe).

I think Burris is a mistake, just because Both Aurilla and Castillo could spell Bocock @ SS. This is why I beleive that Burris’ call-up is a predecessor to something else (Like a Ray Durham trade or a Aurilia DFA).

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 21, 2008 4:51 PM PDT   0 recs

Both Aurilla and Castillo could spell Bocock @ SS

Maybe they could, but they don’t. Castillo has logged one inning at short and Aurilia hasn’t played there at all. It’s clear that Bochy is unwilling to sacrifice Bocock’s defense no matter how much it costs him on offense.

by Evan on Apr 21, 2008 4:54 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Apparantly not...

But that doesn’t really make sense. When we have an unfavorable pitching matchup, Bochy should just throw the “shit” team out there to give bocock etc a rest.

Like, any time Zito Pitches.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 21, 2008 5:19 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, actually, it would be better to do so when Cain/Tim/Sanchez is pitching. The shortstop’s going to get a lot more work with Zito on the mound.

by Evan on Apr 21, 2008 5:30 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I just love your optimism

if we all think durham trade or aurilia dfa, it might happen!

I truly hope so

by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 21, 2008 4:58 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I also disagree. honestly, how much more production

could we expect from Vizcaino or any of the other shortstops out there. It’s a perennially weak hitting position. I wasn’t expecting much more from Bocock, but i get the impression that he’s not a totally failure at this point – and from what i read it seems he’s eager to learn. I can’t really see a scenario where i’d want to see Vizcaino – except on the other team.

by sweetjuxtapose on Apr 21, 2008 4:52 PM PDT   0 recs

People keep saying this. Bocock really has been that bad offensively, with the exception of his walks. I mean, yes, shortstops aren’t good hitters… but Bocock has a 37 OPS+. That’s like, pitcher territory.

He’s not killing the team but I think to even say he’s holding his own offensively is to severely overstate it.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 4:56 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

OPS+ is different from straight-up OPS… it’s adjusted for era/park/etc. 100 is average.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 5:01 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

http://www.baseball-reference.com/about/bat_glossary.shtml

Scroll down to the “Adjusted OPS+” header on here!

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 5:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

And another is converted...

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Apr 21, 2008 11:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah. If he keeps hitting at this level all year (and honestly I think his numbers are more likely to go down than to go up), he would be something like 42 runs below average at his position. That’s epic.

by Evan on Apr 21, 2008 5:03 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Really, if he’s the starting shortstop for the entire year, he could bust the Mendoza line. There’s a difference between struggling in the majors and going where few players have gone before.

by Grant on Apr 21, 2008 5:12 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I think...

There may be a chance we see Bocock driving along Donner Pass by the end of the year.

The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."

by WalrusMan on Apr 21, 2008 11:08 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not even looking for more production. You could get the same production, though, without messing with development and service clocks. I’ll concede the shortstop position to be awful offensively, but do the Giants have to make a bad situation worse by rushing two shortstops who aren’t even close to being ready?

by Grant on Apr 21, 2008 5:00 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

it just doesn't seem egregious to me, Grant

but hey, maybe three years from now we’ll be slitting our wrists when they’re arbitration eligible. I just think it’s too early in the season to declare ‘cock to be anything, really. Burriss? I have no idea why he’s here.

by sweetjuxtapose on Apr 21, 2008 5:05 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I support this

Who am I, and what the hell does my opinion matter? Nobody important and it doesn’t. But to me, this is about the most logical stance a person could take on this issue. The notion that we couldn’t do better than this is ridiculous. There had to be a way even a AAAA shortstop was available somewhere that could have allowed Bocock and/or Burriss to not be rushed to the majors from A ball, and wouldn’t have cost us much of anything to get.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 21, 2008 5:06 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I just don't get this "rushing" thing.

Other teams in MLB bring up players @ the ages of 22-23 fairly routinely. Yes, it does start his service clock “early” (if we go w/ another SS next season and put him back down) and Yes, he can’t spend as much time focusing on his bat playing on a team where wins supposedly matter.

However, He also has access to better facilities and better coaches (supposedly) and is facing real pitching. If Bocock does improve, we won’t have to play the “well he hit .276 in fresno last month, how will that translate to the bigs?” Whatever he hits is whatever he hits. I’m not a hitting coach, and I don’t know if he is more likely to get worse than better – however, I don’t think that has jack crap to do with if he is @ this level, or in the minors. Normally, I would be worried because his bat would be hurting the team. However, while his OPS+ is a mere 37, that’s a whole 23 points higher than your every day first baseman, Rich Aurilia. I don’t really give a shit what he does offensively as long as it seems he improves.

Only time will tell of course – but I would like to see examples of players “rushed to the Majors” who ended up suffering long term @ the plate. I just don’t buy it.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 21, 2008 5:18 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

IANAG

(I am not a Grant) but my objection to the A-ball callups is this: We shouldn’t have to be calling up kids from A ball. The farm system, either by draft or other acquisition, should funnel talent up to the big club. There should be SS talent at every level. Apparently there isn’t ANY at AA or AAA, because if there were, well, those guys would be playing in SF.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 21, 2008 5:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

I understand that point

But right now there isn’t anything we are going to do about it.

Actually, there isn’t ever a time you or I is going to be able to do anything about it, but that is besides the point.

Yes, the farm apparantly dropped the ball on having ML-debut ready SS. However, that’s been true for nearly every position so that’s not exactly surprising. Frankly, I would rather watch Bocock this season than an AAAA player.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 21, 2008 5:35 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Rushing isn’t just about age. It’s a point that’s been hammered into the ground this year, but they’re being rushed because neither of them have even shown that they are capable of playing at A-Ball yet, let alone the majors.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 5:21 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure, but what's does "yet" have to do with it?

So what – they suck offensively. Either he learns or he doesnt. This offseason, we will have a known commodity SS. If a trade or FA gives us a better option SS, then go for it.

Until then, stick w/ Bocock. I still fail to see how being on the ML Club significantly retards his development.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 21, 2008 5:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

GOD DAMN WHITEOUT

WTF. Basically, I said you were wrong and I am right.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 21, 2008 5:37 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs

Well, to be honest, I don’t think there’s a whole lot of development to retard (I’d be surprised if he ever turns into anything more than a… Jose Vizcaino utility type.)

I just think it’s an utter joke that this team is starting someone at shortstop who sucks as much as Bocock does and is as far away from being a major league player as he is.

The Giants are going to suck anyway, yes, but Christ, the dude has a .499 OPS. He is at replacement-replacement level.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Apr 21, 2008 5:45 PM PDT to parent up   0 recs