How bad would Ray Durham have to be to outright cut him?
by acmastrpiece on Apr 1, 2008 8:53 PM PDT
70 comments
I understand he is due 7.5 million dollars this year, but maybe the Giants should go the route of Adonal Foyle and buy him out? It is really tough to watch a team with no hitters play guys past their primes that are not contributing to an actual rebuilding effort, a sentiment I am sure many die-hards agree.
So that being said, if Durham is slumping along at .215 in june, and Velez is showing real promise, would the Giants really play out the year with Durham? I mean, they haven't traded him so far, what value could he possibly entertain? More Mark Sweeney?
Thoughts?
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
0 recs |
70 comments
Email
Print
Comments
After his awesome game tonight, I don't see HOW he can start tomorrow....or for the rest of the season
by Gamer101 on Apr 1, 2008 10:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Under normal circumstances
He would have to play as bad as he played tonight to get outrighted.
Unfortunately, if we did that we'd only have 2 middle infielders left. So he might be able to play A LOT worse and not get cut.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 1, 2008 10:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Middle infielders don't exact grow on trees these days
Hell, Boch barely trusts Velez with the leather, and 2nd base can hide some of the worst defensive flaws.
Derin McMains had five fingers, but he only used three.
by oooreebay on Apr 1, 2008 11:12 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not for the last two games
Given big enough flaws, they'll shine through...
by natteringnabob on Apr 2, 2008 6:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's hitting 167, Velez is hitting 1000 on the season. I think Ray hurt his left shoulder on the take out slide; he was OK to finish the game, but chances are good he will be too sore tomorrow to start. And he may be out a week.
by allfrank on Apr 1, 2008 11:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
if velez keeps this up he will be the NL MVP. because he'll never create an out. it will be awesome.
Dodgers fans eat their young.
by redhornet78 on Apr 2, 2008 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's possible to bat 1.000 and make outs
by Viliphied on Apr 2, 2008 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not if you have a 1.000 OBP
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 3, 2008 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a bit hesitant to scour the gamethreads to corroborate my theory, but did anyone else notice that Durham's range was pretty awful these past 2 games? His hitting my bounce back, but that range, combined with his stone hands, seems reason enough to bench him.
Then again, I'm not a scout, and I only had the TV replays to look at.
by Steve on Apr 1, 2008 11:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
um
hang on. Did you watch durham at all last season?
His range has been crap for a long while. I watched one game last year with four easy groundballs through the right side of the infield.
I hate Hate HATE our infield.
I sure wish that Ort Cloud would form a solid sphere to enter into this team's orbit.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Apr 1, 2008 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and it didn't seem nearly as egregious last year as it does these first two games. Then again, tonight and yesterday are fresher memories.
And +1 gazillion to the hating the infield comments, even if it's nice to see Bocock taking a couple walks.
by Steve on Apr 1, 2008 11:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bococks been the best hitter for the Giants so far aside from Rowand....which is quite sad
by Gamer101 on Apr 1, 2008 11:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm shocked
at how Durham's range has decreased. He's always dropped a lot of balls, but he used to at least get to them. The first hit Cain gave up Ray Ray should've played. If it's more than two steps away, it's a hit. The Giants' would be better off with Aurlia at 3B, Castillo at 2B, and Durham at 1B if all those guys are going to be on the field at the same time...he's just awful. WAY worse than last year.
by tyrannoman on Apr 2, 2008 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This bad.
Rajai Davis: fast.
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Apr 1, 2008 11:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm imagining you holding your hands really far apart right now.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 1, 2008 11:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I'm watching a replay of tonight's game
(not really)
Rajai Davis: fast.
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Apr 1, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's pretty hard for me to get mad at Ray Durham because I like the guy. That being said, I'm pretty mad at Ray Durham.
SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear: http://natto-chan.livejournal.com/125681.html
by Natto on Apr 1, 2008 11:36 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
It's hard for me to get mad at Ray for the simple fact that he used to be great and is probably one of the better Giants over the last decade or so. It's not his fault he's getting old.
However, I have no problems getting angry at Sabean.
by KCE on Apr 2, 2008 7:16 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
An EXCELLENT point
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler
by JRPhillips on Apr 2, 2008 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
buy outs dont really happen in baseball unless you have a career ending injury, and sucking really bad doesnt count.. im down to cut/bench him though
by Azmanz on Apr 2, 2008 12:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Ray almost had a career ender
On that jackass takeout slide. An inch here or there and either that shoulder explodes or he loses a knee. He was really lucky on what seemed like a fairly blatant malicious slide that didn't get called because the runner kept his kleat down.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The bums fans at the bar I was at. .
were wondering why I was cheering when he was taken out. . .
All joking aside, that's how the game is played, you go in hard to purposely break up the double play. It was a clean slide and a clean play. Any middle infielder knows its coming, as long as the cleats are down, its legit. Hey, I hate the bums as much as anyone here, but it was a clean play.
For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .
by WilltheThrill on Apr 2, 2008 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It just didn't look clean to me
It looked like he slid away from the bag to me, and just managed to get his hand on it as he went by. I know the kleats are the biggest thing, but I thought you couldn't slide away from the bag either?
None of the replays gave me a great angle to be sure, but that's how I saw it.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thats how it was. The rule is as long as he can reach the bag, he's withing the rules. Not on him. Its just a very antiquated throwback rule that they keep around for the amusement of Neanderthals who think it takes talent and daring to blindside somebody.
The College Rule works very well. You have to slide directly at the bad. No deliberately taking out fielders. Guys get taken out all the time, but they rarely if ever get seriously injured.
It takes as much athleticism to wipe out a catcher or infielder as it does to run over a pedestrian in a crosswalk going against the light. Blame management for keeping the rule in place
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thanks for the lesson.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i didn;t see anything wrong with that slide, personally
Ray didn;t have time to get airborne because of the bad throw, but the slide seemed hard and clean to me.
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 2, 2008 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll agee
Coming from a former 2B point of view I really dont have a problem with the slide. I've been taken out, and I have slid hard taking others out. Its all part of the game. Of course keeping the spikes down is good natured thing to do.
In reality MI need to use the bag as protection, typically they'll use the back side of the bag. 1B do a similar thing so as to avoid getting their feet mangled by the runner. Its also why umps often use the "neighborhood rule" calling out runners on the force when the MI is in the vicinity of the bag without touching it. I need to go back and watch the replay but the bad throw most likely made Ray more vulnerable.
I traded Cody Ransom for Khalil Greene in my PS2 EA Sports MLB'04 game because he sucked there too.
by rock n jock on Apr 2, 2008 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the showed it at least 6 times on TV last night
in real time, it didn't look like Ray tried to get his feet up, but slo-mo replay showed he had *just* left his feet when Loney made contact.
In short: Castillo and rule, bad. Loney, good (in this and only this instance).
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 2, 2008 1:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was 100% Castilla's fault
He rushed his throw into the dirt. Infielder rule no. 2. Never ever leave a teammate who is going to have his back to a baserunner hanging out to dry with a bad throw. If the throw is late, its late. And the runner is safe. Throws in the dirt from short distances away, (under 100 feet) are inexcusable for a major leaguer.
From what I've seen in the last two days from Castilla, it is clear why he was dfa'd by the Pirates and the Marlins. Neither of which is overstocked with talent.
Loney's slide was chicken shit. Nevertheless within the bounds of the rules. Stupid antiquated rules. MLB should adapt the College rules on baserunning. No deliberate taking out fielders.
There is nothing macho or talented or savvy or gritty about taking out a guy when he is defenseless. It takes absolutely zero talent to take out an infielder. If you want to end stuff like what Loney did, he gets one thrown up around his ear his next ab. That would happen on a team that actually had leadership in a manager. Not sleepy yes men.
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree that Castilla was at fault there
but again, I disagree about Loney's slide. He doesn't know what's happening on the back side of the play. It's his job to ensure that they can't get the runner at first, which he did. Within the letter and spirit of the rules.
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 2, 2008 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Loney's slide
I call BS on this. Loney's slide was not chicken shit. It was fundamentally sound baseball -- not antiquated, not mean-spirited. You slide hard into second base to break up the double play. It's the infielder's responsibilty to get out of the way. It can make a huge difference in a game -- and no, not because it injures the opposing player. Your suggestion to throw one in Loney's ear the next AB, that's chicken shit. You don't deliberately throw at a guy because he plays fundamentally sound ball.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
by leftymalo on Apr 2, 2008 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is nothing macho or talented or savvy or gritty about taking out a guy when he is defenseless. It takes absolutely zero talent to take out an infielder.
I think that pretty much explains why you think the way you do. You need to watch less ESPN.
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was a clean takout slide. Nothing wrong with it at all. If Rowand had done it to Kent, I would've cheered.
by tyrannoman on Apr 2, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So wait
What are the exact rules on takeout slides, because it's feeling more and more like I either saw the play wrong or I have my rules wrong.
I know as long as the kleats are down, you can slide as hard as you want and disrupt the play as long as you're still sliding for the bag primarily, but I didn't think you could actually slide AT the second baseman, which is what that slide looked like to me. Loney's legs were practically pointed toward home plate his body was directed so far away from the bag to break up the play, and he was only able to touch the bag because his shoulder hit it. That doesn't sound clean to me. It sounds malicious.
Did I see it wrong, or do I just not know the rule well enough?
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes thats the stupidity of the rule. If the runner is in the baseline. Which is defined as 3 feet either side of his path to the bag. Which is 6 feet wide on the basepath itself and as long as he can reach the bag with either his hand or his foot as he goes by, it is a legal play.
Thats why its chickenshit. Within the rules?Absolutely. But still no different than running your car up on the sidewalk and running over people just because its in the rules.
You wait. Somebody like Jeter or Arod or some other glamour boy from NYC is going to have a career ending pivot play and watch the howls to change the rules than. That rule is one of those stupid holdovers from the Whites Only days of MLB like Chewing Tobacco,Just stupid.
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that's a shit rule.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not a shit rule. It's the way the game is played. You'll see that play a dozen times over the course of the season. I'm not quite sure how it equates to vechiluar manslaughter, however. I'm not aware of any player being killed by an automobile while turning a double play.
by tyrannoman on Apr 2, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't you see "Police Squad"?
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 2, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, I forgot! Then there was the tiger, too...man, I need to pay more attention!
by tyrannoman on Apr 2, 2008 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It's just the way the game is played"
Is just a way to justify keeping outdated plays around that don't protect the safety of the players.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just to be clear
I'm not against allowing the runner to disrupt the play. What I am against is the rule that allows sliding explicitly at the second baseman to count as disrupting the play.
I've seen thousands of clean bag slides that were performed in a way that disrupted the play and were ten times safer than explicitly taking out a player.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that's the difference between us. I saw the play, saw Ray very unsure of his footing around the bag, the bad throw from Castillo, the takeout slide by Loney, and didn't ahve a problem with it. His entire right arm was around the bag, spikes were low, and he did his job. I gues you could argue that it really didn't matter if he took Durham out or not because there was no way to turn the double play, but I really thought it was clean.
I am also against the football style head cages they make little leaguers wear these days, and find it absurd that base coaches are forced to wear batting helmets.
by tyrannoman on Apr 2, 2008 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess that is the difference between us.
I agree Castillo's throw was crap and that contributed a lot, but I still think that style of slide is unnecessarily dangerous.
And I have no problem with crazy little league helmets, and find it extremely prudent to make base coaches wear batting helmets.
So I think we've pinpointed the exact place where our opinions diverge.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup, we sure have. I just can't imagine trying to hit with a facemask taking up half my field of vision.
by tyrannoman on Apr 2, 2008 12:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can you imagine a 10-y-o getting hit in the head with a 70 MPH fastball?
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 3, 2008 7:57 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You say shitatoe, and I say stupidoe. shit-tatoe, stup toto, lets call the whole thing on.
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
buyouts aren't that infrequent
Heck the O's just sent 11.9 million packing with Jay Gibbons this week. And of course the Dbacks are still making Russ Ortiz a wealthy man in 2008. We dumped 1.75 mil with Kline. What's another 7 really. Supposedly they're begging teams to take him off their hands, but I imagine this will end up in a DFA and a cheap dog days pickup for somebody.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Apr 2, 2008 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we make it a nice round $128 million?
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on Apr 2, 2008 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In MLB, they're not called buyouts, of course
but as Roger pointed out they happen, fairly commonly too.
When a team outrights and DFA's a vet with more than 5 years of service time, they are basically buying him out, since he is eligible to his entire contract.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Apr 2, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a snowball's chance in hell, that one.
Unless Ray Ray is caught banging the 16 year old daughter of Sabean, I'd fully expect him to start all 162 games this season.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 2, 2008 2:12 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Can't think of anyone more suited to throw a mixer , Boozer!
Which designer drug do we plant in Ray's drink?
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on Apr 2, 2008 3:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Ray!
Give her some sugar!
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He would have to D.L.ed. It’s our only hope…
There is nothing to remotely suggest the management would cut him or reduce his exposure otherwise.
Which puts us fans in the position of rooting for a calamity to guy (who has be classy while here) or not rooting at all. Nice going there front office. What school taught you that method of business?
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain.
by daveinexile on Apr 2, 2008 9:24 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
DL
not a question of if, but when, and how many times.
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 2, 2008 9:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The answers are ‘ too late" & ‘ Not long enough".
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain.
by daveinexile on Apr 3, 2008 10:09 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Helms better than Durham at this point?
Just a garbage reallocation move. Since we can't seem to trade for a youngish 3B with upside, I am thinking we cut Ray and get a crappy (though old) guy at 3rd instead of the crappy (older) guy @ 2nd. Helms could man 3rd with Castillo and Aurilia - Velez starts every day! -Castillo backs up at 2B. Then if we finally can trade for a 3B, just cut Helms. A revolving door roster is a good idea on an old last place team.
by Goat on Apr 2, 2008 9:47 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
How bad?
This bad:
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 2, 2008 11:29 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Someone with photoshop skills needs to put Ray's face in there and update the name.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 2, 2008 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can do it later. I've got a meeting I'm late for. And no. Not with Biliie Jean.
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're more a "Dirty Diana" type, anyway.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 2, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd hate to have to do the work matching Durham's skintone to Michael's, though.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 2, 2008 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who's Bad !
Quick and Dirty. Just Like Ray....Well dirty anyway :-)
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
by nvsfg on Apr 2, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My... god....
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 3, 2008 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Poor Ray. He gets his butt broken, he makes errors. he costs the game, we make fun of him, we even shrink his head. And its only the second game of the season
This is definitely a rough crowd
At this rate, we're going to have call in the Chinese Troops from Tibet for the Home Opener.
by E Ticket on Apr 2, 2008 3:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Why cut Ray Durham? Play him and hope he plays well enough to be traded. If not, play Velez at second and use Ray as a pinch hitter.
by sharksrog on Apr 2, 2008 4:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Door number 2 please.
Even if it is a continuation, or varaint, of the extreme suck at least an attempt has been made fix things.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain.
by daveinexile on Apr 3, 2008 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
