Giants call up Burriss, cut Davis
by Dan from NM on Apr 19, 2008 2:26 PM PDT
219 comments
Wow. I'm surprised, but the Associated Press reports that the Giants are calling up Manny Burriss and cutting Rajai Davis.
They must have a ton of faith in Burriss. He hasn't really done much above Augusta, and he's already in the bigs. On the one hand, I'm pleased they like what they see in the guy, but on the other, I'm skeptical that he's ready. I wonder whether he'll steal some time from Bocock.
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Manny's stats
14 games, .258/.281/.306. Two steals in four attempts. At least he doesn’t strike out much.
I just don’t about this. I mean really, he can’t be ready, can he?
by Dan from NM on Apr 19, 2008 2:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
But at least the Giants are trying new things. I mean, it is exciting, even if it’s just teh suck in sheep’s clothing.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Apr 19, 2008 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
100 Percent
agreement. At least it’s some sort of activity that doesn’t look like veteran savvyness. It’s going to bad this year. There really isn’t too many things that could make it worse.
My adopted son Matt Downs. Bill Mueller without the two-flap helmet .
by nvsfg on Apr 19, 2008 6:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct, Dan
You are correct, Dan, Manny isn’t ready - any more than Brian Bocock is. To be honest, I don’t think either is the answer in the long run, either - although they certainly can’t complain about not being given their chance early enough. :)
Actually Manny’s being able to rise from Low A Augusta to AAA Fresno is rather impressive. And he has cut his already-good strikeout rate a bit while doing so. But Manny continues to average his horrendous 1.18 bases per hit. It has actually risen to 1.19 this season, and both his extra base hits (a double and a triple) have come in the past week.
But how can a guy with blazing speed average only 1.18 bases per hits in the minor leagues? The answer, my friend, isn’t blowing in the wind—but perhaps Manny’s lack of power is. If he EVER hits the ball out of the infield, Manny should be able to average 1.18 bases per hit with that great speed of his. (Think Eugenio Velez.)
The Giants now have two shortstop prospects playing in the major leagues. That I like Sharlon Schoop (High A) and Charlie Culberson (Low A) just about as much isn’t a compliment to the latter pair but an indictment of the former two.
Hopefully they will prove me wrong, but IMO neither Bocock nor Burriss is ready now—nor will they be ready to become true starting shortstops in the future, either.
If Brian had played shortstop for the Giants the entire season, I believe he would have been the worst-hitting major league regular since the 19th century. I don’t see Burriss’s being much better.
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this the first shoe to drop?
Is Sabean burning the phone lines and a possible trade is in the works?
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 2:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I hear this every time a player is called up or sent down on this team
And thusfar it hasn’t meant anything special. Since I just don’t know what kind of possible trade the team could have worked out this early (what, with everybody we want to trade doing SO well… durham/roberts/aurilia/lowry!).
And if it is a trade, since it almost assuredly doesn’t involve any of the players we actually WANT to see traded, I’d be afraid over who is actually involved.
A trade might not be what we want this to indicate. I’ll take “roster moves for the sake of roster moves,” I think.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
reason it is asked is because couldn’t Sabean just have moved Frandsen from the 15 to the 60 day DL and accomplished the same without DFA Davis?
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having Frandsen on the 40 man to begin with
Flies in the face of any kind of logic. So keeping him on the 40 man doesn’t make me think that something interesting is going on behind the scenes. Just that the same degree of self-contained illogic is going on behind the scenes.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He couldn't have accomplished the same thing though...
David cannot be sent to the minors anyways, he is out of options.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and really
if there’s one time to send Davis down with a low risk of him being claimed, it has to be now. If they would’ve done this at the start of the season, I’m guessing chances would’ve been huge for him being claimed
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
With a minute earlier post, Dan from NM is the lamer!
groug quips….
If you thought the Bocock move was stupid…Then you’ll love this: the Giants are, according to Rotoworld, completely insane.
Rajai Davis is going to be DFA’d. They are calling up Emmannuel Burris. So, not content with ruining the development of one of their fast all-glove no-hit minor league shortstops who couldn’t hit in San Jose, they’re ruining them both.
Way to go, Sabes. Your genius is a testament to the very best of what baseball Gms have to offer. Way to go.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 2:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld on Sabean
It’s incredible what Brian Sabean is being allowed to get away with while running the once-proud franchise.
by redseal on Apr 19, 2008 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rotoworld having way too much fun
“Roberts was off to a 2-for-17 start, putting him squarely in the running to be the Giants’ All-Star this year.”
Yikes.
Ruben Rivera: Incompetent oaf, or mad genius?
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Apr 19, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nooooo!!!!
Now who will play CF?
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
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by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 2:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Man
I wish 1B could be the new CF. Just once…
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel for Rajai
Got off to a slow start and rarely got any regular PT after producing well last year. Sure, Rajai isn’t much of a player, but he has his use
And this burris thing is stupid, but I thik it’s a sign that Omar’s health is worse than we think
Go Durham, Roberts, Aurilia, Vizquel, Winn, Lowry! The better you do, the quicker we can trade you!
by NeifiChicken on Apr 19, 2008 2:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That is seriously AWFUL
Aside from the fact we are calling up another guy that has shown at best he’s NOT ready to hit at the major league level (at worst can’t hit in AAA) but Sabean is letting go of Rajai Davis, not one of the you know, the old guys who are clearly never going to be any value to this team. I’m sure Dave Roberts and Rich Aurilia will turn things around, I mean they really haven’t hit their peaks yet. Plus Davis has definitely gotten the plate appearances and starts to show that he’s got nothing! If he get his hitting going in 2 or 3 starts, he’s proven that he’s WORTHLESS.
by Bill5 on Apr 19, 2008 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I tried to give it to a few people
And they wouldn’t take it, so you probably shouldn’t want to get it, anyway.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stupid
No – stupid and desperate. What is the point of this? What possible justification does Sabean have for doing this? Not for Davis – who really cares? There are so many guys like him in the minors. This is about Burriss, who is really being set up for failure. Unbelievable.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 19, 2008 2:41 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Regarding putting up Burriss, you're completely right.
I’m not too worried about Davis, if there’s a chance that he’d slip through the designated-for-assignment thingy, this would be it since he’s like hitting less than a buck fifty. We do lose a defensive option in the outfield (can’t shake the images of Davis diving and catching flyballs on the warning track without breaking ribs) but with Bowker apparently up for a bit longer, there really wasn’t much sense of keeping Davis on the roster.
Next OF up has to be Schierholtz though…
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only if there's room for him to actually start
Schierholtz, I mean.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davis' defense
seems to have fallen dramatically from last season. The few times I’ve seen him play this year, he’s looked awful. Friday night (I believe Adam Kennedy was up) a ball was hit into left center, and Raj sprinted in and across, before having to adjust back to the ball. I don’t know if he could’ve caught the ball, but breaking wrong on the same fly ball twice does not fill me with confidence.
by tyrannoman on Apr 21, 2008 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This just makes no goddamn sense. Burriss barely even has a good year in Low-A last year, he’s still pretty damn far from being a major league player… so they start him in TRIPLE-A? And then call him up to the goddamn majors and start his clock early two weeks into the season?
What the hell is wrong with Brian Sabean?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only thing that makes any sense is that Sabean doesn't think any of these guys are worth crap
And he could be right – and is just trying to move some stuff around to make some sort of move in the future or patch something together now on the team.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
For a rebuilding team sorely lacking in talent
that’s a good way to piss away talent.
Just as some player’s bust, others do occasionally become better than expected.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Apr 19, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the fuck...
Does DFA definitely mean he’s leaving the team? Cause if so, what the fuck? They should’ve at least sent him down to AAA. And I don’t get how it makes sense to designate him because he didn’t do very good when he didn’t get any playing time. Davis really seemed like a prospect to me. And he fit right into our ‘speed and defense’ bullshit plan. Seriously, is Sabean fucking cenile?
by boonitez on Apr 19, 2008 2:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Davis...
He is out of options so the only way to send him to AAA is to Designate For Assignment. He couldn’t be sent to AAA as all of his options were used up. That’s one of the reason why Nate never had a chance, Lewis and Davis had no options left whereas Nate did. Also the DFA clears him off the 40-man roster as well, which was needed to put Burriss on the 40-man roster to be on the 25-man roster.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'd have to pass through waivers, with the DFA,
Assuming he does, they can outright him to the minors, without his permission. He does not have enough MLB service time to reject the assignment. This is assuming he has never been outrighted to the minors before.
He can choose to accept the assignment.
Or they can release him.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Apr 19, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speed and defense
It was never anything more than a marketing ploy to begin with. Not even Sabean ACTUALLY wanted to see the team try it.
I think Bochy did, though. And that makes me sad.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the theory of the move more than its application.
Let’s be honest, Davis was nothing more than a fringey 5th outfielder. Our good feelings for him were based more on the fact that he wasn’t Matt Morris, over his special talent or potential.
And this team needed a backup shortstop. But calling up Burris instead of Ochoa is just whacko.
by Steve on Apr 19, 2008 2:44 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but Davis had a shot at contributing to the team over the longterm as a platoon player and defensive replacement. That’s not much, but it’s more valuable than Aurilia is likely to be.
by Dan from NM on Apr 19, 2008 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Raj Davis and Dan Ortmeier
The two were in competition for the roster spot and Ortmeier wins out. Ort has all the tools Davis has plus power and a 1b glove. Ortmeier makes perfect sense as the 5th OF.
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. I just wish that Winn could be the 4th OFer.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Apr 19, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or how about the LF for the Cleveland Indians? And the Indians are seeking a reliever so package Winn/RP for some of that fine Lakeside young firm talent. Then call-up Mr Schierholtz.
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Davis..
I don’t really think he was fringey 5th outfielder. I think he was perfect 5th outfielder material. Not a good hitter, but a great fielder in CF, corners a good fielder as well. He can pinch run for your slower players in the late innings and even steal a base if needed.
Basically also, this means we’ve got 4 OF’ers, and two half OF’ers (Ortmeier and Bowker). At least that adds up to 5 OF’ers….
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burris could play SS and 2B
So that gives us 2 players that can play SS, 2B and 1B that arnt called Durham or Aurilla. Which makes them even more pointless than they already were.
Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!
by Mr Scruff on Apr 19, 2008 2:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I am surprised no one noticed this part...
The Giants recalled right-hander Keiichi Yabu from Triple-A Fresno.
Wtf? To replace Threets?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 2:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what I mean
The whole damn situation doesn’t make sense.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Threets out with a “strained chest.” That’s a new one.
by Evan on Apr 19, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Scuse me...
Strained Intercostal Muscle.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I read that as “Strained Interscrotal Muscle”.
Yikes.
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 20, 2008 2:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yabu up, Threets on DL
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 19, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone probably broke some ribs
Gamer
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Random roster moves! Premature promotions! Useful youngsters getting cut while over-the-hill vets play every day! Injured players who won’t go on the DL! Young pitchers being overworked and mishandled! Hilarious in-game strategery!
A bad baseball team can be a thing of beauty. The 2008 Giants are shaping up as a classic of the genre.
by Evan on Apr 19, 2008 3:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jeez
Well when you put it like that, of course it sounds bad,
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
the Giants did win today, and in some extent also thanks to ‘Gamer’ Rowand..
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Primarily thanks to Gamers Lincecum, Tachsner, Walker and Wilson.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Auigh!! Do not approve.
Still watching out for Notgardo in Fresno. Hope you make it back up soon. We miss you 'round The City way. How come you never call?
by tk on Apr 19, 2008 3:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
what the hell? this is spectacularly stupid.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else think this has repercussions for Bocock?
i.e., Bocock getting sent down to AA/AAA? Wouldn’t that make sense?
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 19, 2008 3:11 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not if Burriss is the replacement… he’s not as good a defender and I don’t think he’d hit any better.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
truthy...
I guess I’m giving Sabean too much credit, i.e., the only way this move makes sense is if they swap Burriss for Bocock, which they didn’t do.
Hrmmmm
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calling Burriss up to sit on the bench would be pretty dumb.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it really would. It makes me think there is something going on here that we don't know about.
Maybe Raj has some sort of issue/injury and the giants just decided not to deal w/ it anymore.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe the Giants are just insane. :\
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Generally
Assuming people who are generally successful to be insane or stupid is a bad assumption. It’s typically much more correct to assume they have ulterior motives that you may not be privy to.
GW, for instance.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Generally successful?
pre-2005 maybe
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or you just don’t understand/agree with the reasons they do offer
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 19, 2008 6:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or that.
But we understand everything.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only I'd posted a minute earlier...
Insane? That’s what I said!
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Apr 19, 2008 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would... kinda?
Bocock did pretty well @ the plate today. Its a little easier when you arent facing RJ or Webb, etc…
It may be that bochy told him that Bocock was getting worn down playing every day, and he needed a SS option.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Sabean pulled a knee jerk reaction.
Altho, with Aurilia and Castillo (and even velez) on the team, you think they could get Bocock some rest every few games.
Besides, Bocock’s 22 – he doesn’t need no stinkin rest
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is going to need a day off every now and then. Kid’s gotta be getting stressed, being overmatched at the plate every day.
Castillo’s D at third leaves much to be desired. I would be scared to see him at short. And a middle infield of Richie and Durham/Velez would have some consequences for the pitching staff beyond a simple increase in earned runs.
What I think is being overlooked here is that Ortmeier is truly the guy without a role on this team. 3rd String 1B and platoon leftfielder without any on base chops nor any particular defensive gifts? Who needs one of those?
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 19, 2008 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
3rd String 1B and platoon leftfielder without any on base chops nor any particular defensive gifts?
Sounds alot like Todd Linden if you ask me.
And we all know how well THAT turned out.
P.S. Mr. Linden is now spending his spring/summer in Sacramento. Went to a Rivercats game last weekend and giggled like a school girl when his name was introduced. He homered in the game, a decent hit really…I refused to stand up or even applaud the effort. Of course he quickly slipped back into form and struck out looking with a man on and 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th. Sactown was down by one.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 19, 2008 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey that’s going to make Rivercats games even more amusing for me.
Really, at this point, every HR Linden hits in just AAA proves that AAA is where he belongs.
Welcome to Sacto Toddy. Try the brunch at the Fox & Goose, hit Benny’s on Friday, and try not to drive down K street on a weekend. You’re going to be here awhile.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 20, 2008 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Dan eligible?
Is Dan Ortmeier eligible for the upcoming NFL draft? I keep thinking he should be an outside linebacker.
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case, why the need to DFA Davis?
Just to a straight Burriss up, Bocock down transaction.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Apr 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope not
Bocock has been playing great defense, and wasn’t the motto: pitching and defense?
No way Burriss makes that play in the bottom of the 9th
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Barehander?
Certainly not.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
or he does..
by throwing it into the stands
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is this where the "I Don't Get This" Club meets?
I feel like our entire team will soon be up of young guys who ideally should be getting developed at a specific position but instead will be moved around the infield and/or outfield willy-nilly.
Also, LOL at the AP story that claims Yabu “has not pitched in the majors since 2005.” I guess I was hallucinating when I saw him pitching all those innings the first week of the season.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on Apr 19, 2008 3:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Off on a tangent...
If Garciapara were to face Matsuzaka, would that be a “Nomar-Mr Dice K guy” matchup?
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 19, 2008 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch!
Well-punned, Senor Goofus!
I got one word for you: "youneverknow"
by senorvegas on Apr 19, 2008 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other scenarios in which this move makes sense...
If Omar is out for the season
If Durham goes away and Burriss/Velez/Bocock are your middle infielders
thoughts?
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 19, 2008 3:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
but Burriss and Bocock STILL aren’t anywhere near being ready for the majors. If Omar really is out for the season, Sabean needs to go out and find some sort of stopgap who isn’t going to have his development retarded by playing way over his head this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again,
This goes back to the Sabean not thinking any of these guys are worth crap and as such he isn’t worried about retarding them – and is planning on making an acquisition @ SS before next season.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really think either of them are worth a crap either, but I still think this is pretty wasteful team management.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
It’s SF Giants Idols all over again and Sabean is looking for hidden talent that doesn’t mind being exposed to the evil world in a mad search for SF’s new SS!
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are a few problems with that theory, Fairweather
First it flies in the face of many many things that Sabean, Tidrow, Evans and Alou have said and done in the last year to register how highly they think of both Bocock and Burriss. Futures Game appearances, AFL assignments, non roster ST invites, massive level jumping - these are all the traditional things that organizations do to signal who their preferred prospects are and they’re all things that the Giants have done with Bocock and Burriss in the last year. They’ve also signalled their approval the old fashioned way - raving about them to the press at every opportunity.
They also used the 33rd pick in the draft for Burriss just 20 months ago (which was a pretty bad idea if they didn’t think he was worth a crap) so being indifferent to his future is a distinguished form of GM incompetence that even I wouldn’t accuse Sabean of.
But I think the bigger problem with your theory is that even if the front office doesn’t believe in these guys long-term future being of help to the team (which I would agree with personally), there is absolutely no way they could think that their short term future can be of help to the team. Having either of them in a major league lineup is throwing outs way. God forbid they’re ever out there at the same time—that would be the baseball equivalent of taking rolls of hundreds out of your pocket and tossing them into the street. They can’t help this team now. Putting them here now (or anywhere above A ball) compromises the small chances that they can ever help the team in the future.
The problem isn’t that these are bad moves - there’s plenty of those to complain about in Sabean’s performance the last 5 or 6 years - it’s that they’re so egregiously and gratuitously bad that we’re quickly becoming the laughingstock of baseball. And we certanly are. It’s not just Rotowire that’s laughing at us. Or BA, or Fox Sports, or ESPN, or the AP and national press which are frequently dropping adjectives like “hapless” and “irrelevant” right into game stories. Other clubs are starting to laugh at us too, and that’s not the position you want to be in when you’re trying to restock a talent barren roster.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Apr 19, 2008 6:45 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with you
I’m just trying to figure out SOME way to explain this.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 3:19 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Penis arms ftw.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on Apr 19, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just trying to accurately represent the man.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
lol
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and Sabes totally wears “I ♥ Sabean” t-shirts.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the looks of that accurate rendition…One would have to say that Bocock is growing on him!
Thank you, thank you….I’ll be here all week.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 19, 2008 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It works on so many levels!
Does Sabean have a heart on his shirt?
Cause I could see Brian Sabean having an “I [heart] BS” shirt.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on Apr 19, 2008 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never a dull moment with this team.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on Apr 19, 2008 3:20 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
What is especially odd about this
Is doing it right now, while the team is in St Louis… It makes it seem as if there is some sort of emergency or other situation dictating that this must happen NOW.
If this were just an overall strategic move, why not do it last week before the team hit the road, or next week when they come back?
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:22 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Prediction:
Ray Durham is getting traded or DFA’ed.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:27 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
If that's the case
amen
On sfgiants.com, Bochy apparently explains the moves:
On Sunday, they will purchase the contract of shortstop Emmanuel Burriss from Triple-A Fresno.
“We’re hoping to get Davis some playing time,” manager Bruce Bochy said after the game. “He hasn’t been getting the playing time that he needs up here and we want to get some help for [Brian] Bocock. We think Burriss can come up here and help us. He also gives us some speed on the bench. He’s similar to Davis, he just gives us more infield depth.
“Our outfield situation is covered. [Daniel] Ortmeier can go out there. [Eugenio] Velez can go out there. We think it’s the best thing for Davis and for us at this point.”
Davis, who was acquired by San Francisco from the Pirates along with a player to be named (right-hander Stephen Macfarland) for pitcher Matt Morris last July, batted .282 and stole 17 bases in 51 games for the Giants a year ago.
But this season, Davis was hitting .056 (one hit in 18 at-bats) with two runs scored and four stolen bases in 12 games. Playing time in the outfield was hard to come by, with regulars like Aaron Rowand and Randy Winn and emerging players like Fred Lewis and hot-hitting rookie John Bowker.
Davis said he understands the move and is looking forward to his next opportunity, either with Triple-A Fresno or if he is claimed by another Major League team.
“Everything works out perfect for me,” Davis said.
The 23-year-old Burriss is expected to provide some depth in the infield, specifically behind rookie shortstop Bocock, and add some offense.
In his first 16 games with the Fresno Grizzlies, Burriss batted .258 (16 hits in 62 at-bats) with two extra-base hits, six RBIs, six runs scored and two stolen bases. He had a .281 on-base percentage and .306 slugging percentage.
“He can play short and second,” Bochy said. “It gives us a little more flexibility.”
by SFGAmsterdam on Apr 19, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL @ expecting Burriss to add some offense
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well technically
he only needs to be better than Davis has been to add offense
Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!
by Mr Scruff on Apr 19, 2008 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I don’t know about that. I find Manny’s hitting QUITE offensive. :)
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess it makes some sense. Burriss is basically Davis (a terrible hitter/fast runner) except he can play infield.
by SF Pete on Apr 19, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Everything works out perfect for me"
Must be code for….”QUICK!!! SOMEONE CLAIM MY ASS SO I CAN MOVE AWAY FROM THIS SHIT-FOR-BRAINS RUNNING THINGS!!!“
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 19, 2008 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he was getting DFA'd, though
It would have been simpler to just DFA him instead of Raj. Why make a one step process two steps long?
I’d be on board with a Durham trade, but again… what possible value are uou getting out of Durham right now? The guy who’s batting line is arguably worse than Bocock’s?
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Value would be getting rid of his Salary
DFA Raj may just be another move they elected to make @ the same time as getting Burris up. The post made before about Burris adding infield depth to replace the loss of ray makes sense.
Probably just wishful thinking on my part, however.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, with Isiah Thomas out, where does Sabean rank amongst the worst GMs in all of sports, being as how he looks like he’s wrapped up the baseball title.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar
by JakeS on Apr 19, 2008 3:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Jake
For reminding me how lucky I’ve been these past few years to be a fan of the SF Giants and NY Knicks. How about also rubbing in the fact that I’m a fan of the NY football team that DIDN’T win the Super Bowl??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Apr 19, 2008 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
J-E-T-S JETS JETS JETS
Maybe Richie Kotite can come to SF… Ginats must win now!
by natteringnabob on Apr 20, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sabean did say on his show last week that they need to get better vs. RHP. Perhaps he feels Burriss will be an upgrade since he is a switch hitter.
He is hitting .313 in a whopping 32!!!!! at bats vs. RHP this season.
This move is insane especially if he is going to sit the bench.
Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: One of the few reasons to watch this year.
by sfgreg on Apr 19, 2008 3:32 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, .313 does beat .165 or whatever bocock is hitting
In a platoon… I just think that ultimately, what’s the difference? It is true that there is a lot of depth in the OF so Davis was basically getting screwed out of playing time.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
One point....
Having Buriss on the Bench does allow you to pinch-hit for Bocock in high leverage situations, which make eek out another win occasionally.
One would think however that Aurilia could come in to play short in the same situation, so I just don’t get it (Still).
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 3:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Didn't think of that
Good point.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 19, 2008 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
eek out another win?
Two problems with that statement:
1) You’re assuming we’ll win again this season.
2) Just how important is that singular win when we’ll be lucky to get 60 of them.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 19, 2008 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
with a few extra wins, the marketing just writes itself
“The 2008 SF Giants. Crappy, but not as crappy as you thought.”
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 19, 2008 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1.) right…
2.) It doesn’t matter, but some people might think it does.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
who would you pinh hit?
Holm? Aurilia? Burriss? just let Bocock bat.
Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.
by kennv on Apr 19, 2008 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I am just struggling to find some justification…
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ortmeier, Velez and Durham are all frequently available to PH. All better hitters than Bocock so far.
And yes, I would pinch hit Steve Holm for Bocok if there were runners on.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 20, 2008 8:15 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention Matt Cain.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 20, 2008 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
designated runners
Back to the Future! Maybe the Ginats will sign Herbie Washington.
by natteringnabob on Apr 20, 2008 6:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to read much into this
in terms of Durham being gone or another move pending. Although Vizquel might be out longer than we are led to believe. Anyways, there is a good chance Davis will be in Fresno and actually playing. If not, we’ll live.
by lincecumania on Apr 19, 2008 4:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m guessing you are probably right about this relating to Vizquel being out a while longer; and frankly as much as I miss him, in a rebuilding year I could live with him being gone a while (and his contract not vesting).
by Scottsdale on Apr 19, 2008 8:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't understand
why is the assumption on this site that you cannot develop in the Majors? In a normal situation, you’d want players to develop in the minors, because you don’t want their learning curve to drag down the success of the big club. But if you’re in a situation like the Giants – where there is no real success to be expected this year – what’s wrong with developing them on the big stage? The only argument I hear is that it will “shatter their confidence…” But is this a real argument? Or is it this just faith-based parroting?
by flip3 on Apr 19, 2008 4:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, you waste a lot of service time if you bring up someone who’s clearly not even CLOSE to being ready for AAA (or AA for that matter, tbh) let alone the majors. Ideally, you want to control a player for six years in which he’s actually major league ready, not waste half of his controllable years while he’s incapable of hitting for a 50 OPS+ at the major league level.
I mean, I can understand if this was someone like Bowker or Nate Schierholtz, they’re both pretty close to being major league ready (if not already there). Burriss and Bocock are most definitely not. They might be useful players at some point in the future, but throwing them into situations where they are not only over their head but RIDICULOUSLY over their head (seriously, neither of these guys could hit in freakin’ single-A last year, why are they both in the majors now?) and wasting their service time (and putting them both on the 40-man roster much earlier than they need to be) makes absolutely no sense.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess then
That maybe, they believe that these guys are not ridiculously over their heads. Bocock has been drawing walks, and making a little bit of contact. Maybe their judgment is that he is catching on. I know, for one, that his at-bats are not as annoying as Aurelias are… Plus, he got a hit today:)
I don’t want to go on record defending Sabean. But I really do like the development philosophy of putting people on the hot seat. Some personality types get focused, and thrive.
Also – I’m not all that worried about their service clock. As far as I’m concerned, if they develop into good players, they’ll find the money to keep them. If not, then who cares about the service clock?
by flip3 on Apr 19, 2008 4:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this
I was wondering- aren’t they able to trade Rajai during the 10-day period? Can someone please tell me how that works, kthxbai
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on Apr 19, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I beleive so.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade value of a DFA'd player
has to be a fraction of the value of that same player, pre-DFA, yes?
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.
by delorean on Apr 19, 2008 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on how your team did last year I guess..
Since the worst teams last year in the NL have a crack at him first, then they probably wouldn’t trade for him, a higher NL team or an AL team might trade for him if they wanted him.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 20, 2008 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
but who would really want Raj?
by tyrannoman on Apr 21, 2008 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't fundamentally disagree
That developing in the Majors is fine… And I think you make good points. The service time issue is real, but at the same time – things don’t always go perfectly.
I think the confidence thing is bullshit, personally. If I went and played for the Giants next week and couldnt hit, I wouldn’t be thinking “oh my god I suck so much I’ll never make it.” I would be thinking “holy shit I’m playing major league baseball!!!”
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but you have to admit there’s a difference between letting someone who’s performed in the minors and is relatively close to being major-league ready develop in the majors and letting someone who’s performed as poorly in the minors as Burriss/Bocock develop in the majors, right?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
They simply decided: Let’s find the guys at any level that we judge to have the best raw upside, and let’s accelerate them this year.
There are plenty of perennial AAA players who have low ceilings. If that’s the case – are they not doing exactly what’s right by bypassing these folks, and bringing up the best potential atheletes?
by flip3 on Apr 19, 2008 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that just shows a severe lack of good player evaluation. Bocock hit .220/.293/.328 in high-A last year. Burriss hit .176/.237/.180 in high-A (and a better, but still pretty mediocre .321/.374/.381 in low-A considering his age). These guys aren’t ready for AA, let alone the majors. There’s absolutely no reason to accelerate their development. It’s insane. It makes no sense (and Bocock isn’t exactly proving them wrong… he’s drawn a fair amount of walks, but I imagine part of that has to do with him batting in front of the pitcher. Even with that, he’s hitting an absolutely horrible .163/.293/.184, good for a 31 OPS+.) And Burriss hasn’t given any indication that he is ready for AAA, with his .587 OPS so far this year.
The Giants are desperate, yes, but a good organization would not be pushing players like this to the major league level when they are clearly so very far away from being at that level.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hence me crapping myself at the news.
Look I can provide real honest analysis of the move later but right now I’m like the mom weeping and snapping pictures at her kid’s first grade play.
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 19, 2008 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and if Burriss can't cut it there is good old Charlie Culberson
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 4:31 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Nooner is 2-2 tonight with a double, triple and 3 ribbies
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Culberson is hitting worse at Augusta than Bocock is in the Bigs.
by nostocksjustbonds on Apr 19, 2008 6:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sharlon Schoop
Sharlon Schoop is higher up the minor-league chain. And he also has many more than Charlie’s four hits (although three of them have come this past week).
The sad thing is that in a duel-to-the-death match between Bocock, Burriss, Schoop, Culberson and a wet paper bag, the paper bag would go into the match as the favorite.
Actually, I like the just-turned-21-year-old Schoop as a sleeper. And, man, do the other Giants’ shortstops seem to be snoozing at the plate.
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe burris wasn't a good pick?
While I agree its unrealistic to expect Burris to be ready at this point, I do think it is realistic to expect him to have hit better than .165 at high A. Maybe he wasn’t a good pick? Joba Chamberlain went 8 picks later in that draft, and I’m sure there were other players picked that are probably better than Burris. That’s the problem with this organization. We know our old players suck. But since Sabean drafted the younger players (except for some pitchers) we know they probably suck too!
by mark30perq3 on Apr 19, 2008 4:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’ve really never been a big fan of the Burriss pick to begin with.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
at the same time
everyone always criticizes sabean when he picks pitchers, and he has done a good job with those. So i find it hard to criticize the pick of burriss when everybody demands that we draft hitters higher. a lot of people felt that he was immediately one of the best prospects in the org. he did hit decent in low ball, hes by no means a bust as of yet.
by zeisenbe on Apr 19, 2008 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was a bad pick, but everybody makes bad pick. It’s a hard thing to watch a college player and try to figure out whether he can play major-league baseball. But when you’ve had the same player in your organization for two years and it’s perfectly obvious that he can’t play major-league baseball and you promote him anyway—that’s a whole ‘nother level of incompetence.
by Evan on Apr 19, 2008 5:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
erm
I don’t think that’s true. The Giants just happen to be as utterly unable to pick hitters as they are reasonably capable of picking pitchers. Sure, now and then one sneaks by—Schierholtz could be an actual hitter, and Craig Whitaker (who?), taken thirty picks earlier, isn’t much of a pitcher. Still, putting this down to ‘who knows how to draft anyhow?’ is extremely shortsighted.
No, Burriss just isn’t much of a hitter, and all the teams who passed on him before the Giants knew it.
by wcw on Apr 19, 2008 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
..2003..
..and now that I think about it, 2003 is a good example of how the Giants can suck at drafting. They picked Aardsma over Billingsley or Barton and Whitaker over Saltalamacchia or Adam Jones. Ugly all around. Yeah, picking up Schierholtz deep in the round was nice, but it didn’t make up for wasting those high picks on dross.
Of course, 2004 was even more depressing. Remember the Tucker pick? Kansas City used it to take Billy Butler, currently hitting .333/.394/.444 at age 22. Be nice to have that kind of production from 1B instead of that the team currently has, huh?
When KC makes your team’s GM look stupid, here’s a hint: he is stupid.
by wcw on Apr 19, 2008 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't complain
I wouldn’t complain about the 2006 draft, which actually was the first step toward getting the farm system back on track. While I’m not a fan of Burrriss (perhaps because he can run twice as fast as I can :), the Giants drafted Tim Lincecum before him and Clayton Tanner and Ben Snyder immediately thereafter.
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just the other day, I was saying something conspiratorial about how the mixed messages we were getting about Vizquel’s return lead me to suspect he might not be back at all this year. Burriss getting called up just adds fuel to that fire. I mean, why would we be spending two roster spots on shortstops who are clearly years away from being Major League ready unless Vizquel ain’t coming back?
Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but at this point, I’d actually be surprised if we see Vizquel playing again.
by jcb9 on Apr 19, 2008 5:53 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I would not be surprised to not see Omar this year.
And i’ve felt that way since I heard he needed surgery.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 6:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
This is a lot more complaining and bitching than I expected.
This offseason, didn’t I have a very spirited debate with someone complaining the Giants didn’t bring up players fast enough, and now that they are, the complaints begin the other way.
I’m honestly ‘meh’ about moving Davis down (or losing him). I’ve never been a big fan of his approach, and while I like his defense, the Giants have a left-handed player with a similar skill set, though not as effective a base-stealer, in Clay Timpner. Oh, and Timpner is also three and a half years younger.
I’m also not as down about Burriss as some people seem to be. He had a poor start last year, but I’m a fan of his approach, and he was excellent after a bad six weeks….that six weeks seems to have simply defined him to some. I don’t think he’s ready for the majors, but I don’t think it’s a major crime bringing him up. They’re taking a bigger risk with him about service time than Bocock…frankly, I don’t think Bocock will ever be enough of a hitter to be more than a backup in the bigs. But Burriss isn’t so far away. He was performing fairly admirably at Fresno, all things considered.
And where’s the complaining about the Threets-Yabu move coming from? Yabu did alright in the majors, and Threets is injured, so he needs to be replaced. What the heck is bothering people about that?
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Apr 19, 2008 6:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they wanted a reliever who was born after World War II
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Apr 19, 2008 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brian Bocock AND Manny Burriss are mutually exclusive.
by wilriv21 on Apr 19, 2008 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think
so. Burris has played SS and 2B, and the Giants’ really don’t have anyone who can play short late in the game if Bocock needs to be PH for or double switched.
Didn’t we all want to see a competition for young guys? Here’s an interesting chance.
by tyrannoman on Apr 21, 2008 7:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think with Yabu
It’s not complaining that he’s coming back up, but continued complaining that he was ever sent down.
Unless there was a comment I didn’t see that totally contradicts this thought.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 19, 2008 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The complaint about Yabu
Is that we sent him down what, like 4 days ago? And now he’s back up? retarded.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought you couldn’t do that because he had to be in the minors for at least 10 days.
Maybe with the injury to Threets the Giatns can waive that rule?
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by groug on Apr 19, 2008 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was whenever Chulk came back, so
Just before the ST louis series started… 4 or 5 days tops.
Too lazy to look it up.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
10 days...
Except for injury I think, which Threets qualifies.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 20, 2008 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
So......
...I take it you have a magic mirror that can predict injuries?
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Apr 19, 2008 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not me
But I’m sure somebody must. Chances bear out that somebody must.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 20, 2008 12:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t come in here with your goddamned logic, Brute. These are Sabean moves, ergo, they must be wrong – and, as a corollary, we are absolutely correct in wailing and knashing teeth and feeling as if Sabean has robbed us of our crown jewels. Get thee away!! Translation: get on board or STFU.
by allfrank on Apr 19, 2008 8:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Evan, because anytime anyone doesn’t like a Sabean move it’s the byproduct of some sort of myopic viewpoint created by our shared membership of the ‘Sabean Bashing’ club. We could never have reasons for not liking a certain move like this - not ready for the majors, could screw up his development, hasn’t ever hit about A-ball -- nope, we’re just a bunch of knee jerk reactionists.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on Apr 20, 2008 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, Xanthan, the knee jerk is in cherry picking just the reasons against the move, ignoring any reasons that may either support the move or be neutral. I don’t support the move either, but it really isn’t a big deal, it doesn’t cripple the team or its future, that’s for sure. At the point I made my comment, there was a string of pretty hysterical, armeggedon-type comments.
Did Sabean have much of a plan for SS for this year? It doesn’t appear so, but I would think it is pretty unexpected that both Omar and Frandsen go down in ST, at least one for the year. I would have thought that Ochoa was #2 or 3, but he played poorly in ST, both offensively and defensively. He finally has started to hit about 10,11 days ago, so I still would have called him up rather than Burriss. That would have been my plan, I just don’t see how it is clearly superior to what they did instead.
To address your specific reasons, ‘not being ready for the majors’ hardly distinguishes Bocock or Burriss. ‘Could screw up (could, not ‘will’) development,’ is offered as an absolute conclusion. I just don’t understand how you are in the position to make this judgment, Secondly, while this might be common wisdom, who says it is true, and more to the point, likely to be true in this case? I think this argument illustrates what I call the knee jerk, anti-Sabean reaction in that the argument is thrown out there as ‘obvious truth’ without any further discussion. It is almost funny, just two years ago Sabean was being raked for ‘letting players rot in the minors,’ and not bringing them up unti they got old and stale (Linden, Niekro, etc). I think this move is curious, I even disagree with it, I just don’t think it is clearly wrong, despite the loud majority reaction. Actually, when there is a loud, anguished, large and emotional majority, chances are they are wrong, and merely feeding off of each other rather than trying to process information and reach a rational judgmwent. No one has considered the possibility that a few months in MLB may actually help these players development. The cry on this site has been “play the youngsters,” but by god there is a lot of screaming and hysterics when that happens.
Lastly, ‘has never hit above A ball.’ Well, this really is no different than reason #1. The really good players skip most of the minors (Lincecum, Paul Molitor, robin Yount, Al Kaline – sorry, can’t think of the recent examples, but they are there). Reason 1 & 3 really are the same, they haven’t progressed, they aren’t ready. That is clearly true. But what are the options, and which options are clearly superior. One of the advantages the club was supposed to have this year was, without any reasonable expectation of winning, they could play a lot of youngsters and see what we have. Sure, we all expected that to be Lewis, Bowker, Schierholtz. But we also knew they have been focusing on speedy, excellent defensive MIs. So, what is to say they shouldn’t be brought up? The only other one with any promise, who could be, may be, further advanced, is Ochoa. I can’t say why he wasn’t brought up. But beyond that, the loss of Omar and Frandsen tie our hands to some extent. Compared to trading some good young pitching for the SS version of Hillenbrand certainly is scary. We do not have to be in any hurry to trade away our pitching trading chips to get either a short term, stop gap solution, or a potential long term solution. Maybe that will happen. But until there is a solution, I just don’t see where the early intro of Bocock and Burriss to MLB is harmful to the club. They either develop and become part of the solution or they follow Linden to Sacramento. And we have the luxury of finding out which.
by allfrank on Apr 20, 2008 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Sabean have much of a plan for SS for this year? It doesn’t appear so, but I would think it is pretty unexpected that both Omar and Frandsen go down in ST
The Frandsen at SS idea was scratched before he he got injured. Vizquel getting injured surprised you? Only two SS have appeared in 100 games or more past the age of 41in the history of the game. The last time it happened was in 1949.
The cry on this site has been "play the youngsters," but by god there is a lot of screaming and hysterics when that happens.
You didn’t hear anyone crying when Bowker, Velez, Lewis etc…got playing time did you? Maybe we should have been more specific: "Play the youngsters, but only the ones that didn’t slug .180 in A+.”
The really good players skip most of the minors (Lincecum, Paul Molitor, robin Yount, Al Kaline – sorry, can’t think of the recent examples, but they are there).
Players skip most of the minors because they’re really good – it’s not that they’re good because they skipped most of the minors. All of these players were hotshots, and hit/pitched well in their limited time in the minors.
I agree that we may have overreacted, and maybe we usually do, but that doesn’t change that fact that this is a bad move, that hurts the team both in the present and in the future (we’re wasting an option BTW).
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 21, 2008 8:51 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Question
How is
Could screw up (could, not ‘will’) development,’ is offered as an absolute conclusion.
An absolute conclusion when I prefaced it with could?
could
–verb
1. a pt. of can1.
–auxiliary verb
2. (used to express possibility): I wonder who that could be at the door. That couldn’t be true.
3. (used to express conditional possibility or ability): You could do it if you tried.
4. (used in making polite requests): Could you open the door for me, please?
5. (used in asking for permission): Could I borrow your pen?
6. (used in offering suggestions or advice): You could write and ask for more information. You could at least have called me.
Am I missing something, or have I just not had enough coffee yet this morning?
Secondly, while this might be common wisdom, who says it is true, and more to the point, likely to be true in this case? I think this argument illustrates what I call the knee jerk, anti-Sabean reaction in that the argument is thrown out there as ‘obvious truth’ without any further discussion
Find me a list of players who have hit like Burriss have in A-ball and then gone onto successful major league careers and then we can talk. Especially ones that have hit like he has and then shot into the majors.
Lastly, ‘has never hit above A ball.’ Well, this really is no different than reason #1. The really good players skip most of the minors (Lincecum, Paul Molitor, robin Yount, Al Kaline – sorry, can’t think of the recent examples, but they are there)
Yeah, and Burriss isn’t one of those “really good players” .... yet.
And no offense, but try using paragraphs now and then, it makes it hard to read a giant block of text. I had trouble getting through it all.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on Apr 21, 2008 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Timpner and Davis
Do you really think Timpner is as good of a base stealer as Davis? Maybe be can develop into one, but I don’t think its even a contest if I remember Clay’s % in AA and AAA.
But I’m with you on the DFA. The Giants are still loaded with similar speedsters. Velez can still play OF after all.
Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.
by kennv on Apr 19, 2008 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious...
What part of “though not as effective a base-stealer” made you think he was implying that Timpner was as good a base stealer as Davis?
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 19, 2008 9:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a lot more complaining and bitching than I expected.
I seriously doubt that. You’ve been reading this blog long enough to know how things go.
But Burriss isn’t so far away. He was performing fairly admirably at Fresno, all things considered.
“Admirably” in the sense of “not falling flat on his face when promoted three levels”? I suppose that’s admirable, yes. But it doesn’t get him any closer to being worthy of a promotion. .258/.281/.306 is an unacceptable batting line even for a Gold Glove-caliber shortstop, which Burriss isn’t. In the PCL, it’s a joke.
by Evan on Apr 19, 2008 9:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He had a poor start last year, but I’m a fan of his approach, and he was excellent after a bad six weeks….that six weeks seems to have simply defined him to some.
Obviously, just looking at his first 6 weeks is wrong. But so is ignoring them. Last year Burriss hit .278/.336/.325/.661 between A and A+. Only 8 MLB players (two of them Giants) OPSed less than .661 last year. Evan if Burriss can hit in the majors like he did in A ball, which I doubt, he will be one of the worst hitters in the league.
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 20, 2008 2:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And...
...if he bats like he did in the Arizona Fall League, a League of just the top prospects mostly in Triple-A and Double-A, he’ll be an All-Star. (.365/.450/.423, 6 walks against 3 strikeouts in 52 at-bats)
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Apr 20, 2008 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he’s going to be able to hit .365 in the majors. I think AFL performances are really overstated sometimes, how many AB’s did he get in the AFL?
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on Apr 20, 2008 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
52 AB in the AFL mean more than 502 AB between A and A+? Or 139 AB in A+?
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 21, 2008 2:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
1.18
No matter which levels he plays at and no matter how high his batting average, Manny keeps averaging about 1.18 bases per hit. I think the major leagues will choke off his hitting with their better fielding and positioning.
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Career Isolated Slugging of .052. Yikes. For context, Dave Roberts (23 career HR) has a career ISO of .101;David Eckstein has .076; Juan Pierre has .072; Omar Vizquel has .066.
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 21, 2008 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what you mean by "his approach", Brute
Granted, I’ve only seen him play at this point about a half dozen times, but the only thing like an approach I’ve seen out of him is try to hit slow rollers to SS and beat them out (and frankly that’s what he seems to do most sucessfully, but he also seems to hit enough weak flyballs to suggest it’s not a hard and fast “approach”). I once showed up for batting practice to see if he could pull a ball in BP and came away pretty convinced that he can’t. He rarely hits a ball with any authority whatsoever and I’ve seen nothing to believe he could handle even upper minors fastballs or sliders. On top of which he doesn’t particularly work counts. So again, just curious, I’m not too sure what approach you’re referring to with him.
He is a very good defender, and while his arm isn’t in the same league as Bocock’s, it’s not as weak as some people have made out. I’d certainly say it’s better than David Eckstein’s for instance. But still, this is a guy who should be working out his offensive shortcomings in the Cal League right now. I maintain that Sabean has now officially progressed from trashing our talent base to turning us into a industry wide joke.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
by Roger on Apr 20, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Once again we agree
Once again we agree, Roger. Must be the name. :)
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also dont get the Burriss pessimism
I agree with you that people seem to be focusing on that small stint in A+. He is currently hitting a lot better than that in AAA, even despite skipping a few classes to get there, and he hit very well at A, short season A, AFL and college before that. I don’t think hes ready for the majors by any stretch, but I’m not about to completely give up on him as a prospect.
Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!
by Mr Scruff on Apr 19, 2008 8:25 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
should be a reply to brute above
Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!
by Mr Scruff on Apr 19, 2008 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s hitting better than his high-A numbers in AAA, but he’s not really hitting very well at .258/.281/.306. Unless he went like 4-5 today or something. Which he didn’t because he’s not playing. So yeah.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 19, 2008 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree he isnt hitting very well at AAA so far, certainly not deserving of callup, but considering the jump I dont think his line is atrocious either.
Olma Rosario; liking the cut of your jib since 2008
Free Angel Joseph from US immigration!
by Mr Scruff on Apr 19, 2008 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss
Getting Davis down to Fresno (no one will claim him) where he can play more regularly makes all the sense in the world to me, as does getting another infielder so that you can pinch hit for Bocock. They seem pretty clear that he’s up to spell the others and two things could happen, neither of them bad for Burriss. Either he’s more ready than we think and earns some playing time or he gets a bit of exposure to the Big Leagues that helps motivate him and clarify for him what he has to work on. If it doesn’t work, he goes back down after a month. I like it that they are being more experimental with the farm system and, so far, not making any panicky trades involving someone like Sanchez for a mediocre temporary upgrade in the infield. .
by NearestNorwich on Apr 19, 2008 8:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
not making any panicky trades involving someone like Sanchez for a mediocre temporary upgrade in the infield. .
+1,000,000
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 8:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
i asked this before so forgive me...
but who pinch hits for Bocock?
Holm?
Aurilia?
Burriss?
There’s rarely more than one bat on the bench i’m itching to see i any given game (ie Bowker, Molina?)... it might rarely come up, but there are not a lot of options, and if you PH for Bocock there’s not really anyone left to PH for the following pitcher’s spot.
Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.
by kennv on Apr 19, 2008 8:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pinch Matt Cain for Bocock
I agree with you, leave Bocock in. He’s fine.
Not like it matters anyway.
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on Apr 19, 2008 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Noah Lowry is returning as a pinch hitter
He certainly won’t be pitching, anyway.
My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.
by howtheyscored on Apr 20, 2008 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fun/Sad Fact:
Lowery’s 2005 OPS+ would have been 4th among position players in last game’s lineup. Also, look at this:
2005 Lowry: .271/.302/.373, OPS+ 75.
Your 2008 Giants: .231/.289/.340, OPS+ 68.
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
by Cookyman on Apr 20, 2008 3:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
PH for Bocock...
I’m just doing the entire team.
Molina
Ortmeier
Velez
Lewis
Rowand
Winn
Bowker
Sometime some of those people sit. Especially those last four, one of them has to sit every game.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on Apr 20, 2008 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Basically everybody but Aurilia has hit better than my boy Bocock so far.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 20, 2008 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
!!!!!!!!!!!
"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 19, 2008 8:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
I will say one thing...
If all that was needed was to give Bocock a rest…shoulda brought up Ochoa.
SFDugout.com is BACK! See the Top 50 Giants Prospects!
by BruteSentiment on Apr 19, 2008 10:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Anytime you’ve been working the Bocock too hard, you need to give it a rest from time to time.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 19, 2008 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
we should call his off days “refractory periods”.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 20, 2008 8:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I happen to agree with Brute that we’re getting a bit too up in arms over this move. I think they’re just hoping that Burriss turns out to be a little more major league ready than Bocock has turned out to be. They also feel Bocock needs an occasional day of rest, and they obviously don’t like what they’ve seen of Castillo and Aurilia at short. They’re probably also thinking that this move enables them to pinch hit for Bocock at any time in the game, even early. If, for example, the Giants have a bases loaded one out situation in the fourth inning of a scoreless game, the importance of scoring there is so much more important than it is for other teams, and with Bocock and the pitcher due up, they know their chances of capitalizing there are small. Therefore, you send up an Ort or Aurilia or a Durham to hit for Bocock. And finally, since Manny is also playing alot of second base, this could actually be the end of Ray Durham. If he’s DFA’d in the next few days, the reason for bringing up Burris would be clear.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Apr 20, 2008 4:51 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
...but why would they think Burriss was more major league ready than Bocock?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
by jponry on Apr 20, 2008 5:08 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
and why have Velez skip levels?
or have Bocock on the roster at all?
or think you can sneak Davis through waivers when the untouchable Roberts and Durham are available for the crapper?
It’s just frustrating to see Davis “not getting any playing time”, Velez being turned into an OF, Fresno’s roster packed with 35 year olds, and mop-up pitchers used for one inning per game.
by natteringnabob on Apr 20, 2008 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Burriss was actually one level ahead of Bocock at the beginning of last year, but they reversed them after Manny’s terrible start. Perhaps Manny’s good showing in the Fall League and decent start at Fresno this year has convinced them that he is actually more ready than Brian is. After all, Brian hit just .220 at San Jose, so you certainly wouldn’t expect him to hit the .260 or so that Manny was hitting at Fresno this season.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Apr 20, 2008 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Aurilia shouldn’t pinch hit for anybody until he gets an extra base hit.
So far, the man is doing a great impression of toast.
you can't block the Bocock
by oldjacket on Apr 20, 2008 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
No impressions of toast for Richie…he’s way too stale for that.
Adoptive papa to Omar...so basically I'm screwed.
by PacBellBoozer on Apr 20, 2008 10:07 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Richie is about to be designated for assignment. There is absolutely no reason for them to keep playing him as much as they have been, unless they’re trying to decide if he has anything left. I think they’re doing the same with Durham, only (unfortunately for us) Ray is showing he might have a little gas left in his tank.
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Apr 20, 2008 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, unfortunately. Altho Ray was hitting well in ST before he got hurt and missed all of those games at the end. So, it’s taken him 3 long weeks to get his hitting stroke back. Unfortunately for us, he never lost his GIDP stroke. Thus we may not be able to get rid of him. Too bad Velez didn’t seize the moment.
by allfrank on Apr 20, 2008 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Specializing
The Giants seem to be specializing now in players with a lot of speed and no pop. The good news is that through their first 16 games, this year’s Giants outscored the 1985 Giants that lost 100 games by three runs—or nearly .2 runs per game!~
by sharksrog on Apr 20, 2008 12:45 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey, Rog
What about this Bowker guy?? No pop??
Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment
by rxmeister on Apr 20, 2008 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Sab-O-Reno is probably on the phone right now with the BoSox trying to trade Bowker for Lugo.
Ok its a bad joke. But what other kinds of jokes do you expect from me?
As for the Davis & Burriss moves the make little logical sense to me given the other available options. But then given the other available options I am taking solace in the fact it could have been much, much worse choices.
" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.
by daveinexile on Apr 20, 2008 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
But the good news is we are leading the league in double plays and stolen bases. After our stinky start, we are only 3 games under 500, (we actually have a better record than the hated Dodgers and 3 other NL teams), are the only team in the league to take 2 in a row from St. Lo. And dear Jesus, we are certain to be without Aurilia and maybe Durham in the not too distant future
by allfrank on Apr 20, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
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