Bananananafocock

by Grant on Apr 17, 2008 11:53 AM PDT Comment 130 comments

Omar Vizquel might come back soon. He might not. When he does, it's uncertain if he'll still have the the defensive mobility that gives him any value as a shortstop. For the moment, Brian Bocock is still the starting shortstop. And with each passing day, that decision is seeming more and more insane. Insane. Absolutely crazy. Pretend that before the season started, you didn't know Brian Bocock existed. Maybe you didn't. But read this description, and try to imagine how a player like this could start:

Player X is a ninth-round pick, who had pronounced offensive struggles in A-ball in 2007. If his A-ball numbers were brought straight to the majors without any adjustment, he would still be one of the worst hitters in the majors.

What could allow a player like this to start? The only possible answer: magic defense. Not good defense, not great defense, but magic defense. He'd have to have the range of Ozzie Smith, the arm strength of Shawon Dunston, the accuracy of Omar Vizquel, and a robotic exoskeleton that shoots missiles from his nipples like that of Iron Man*. I might be understating the case. Few hitters in recent history have been as unprepared to face big league pitchers as Bocock. He wasn’t overmatched in AAA. He wasn’t overmatched in AA. He was overmatched in A-ball a little more than a year after he was swinging an aluminum bat in the Atlantic Sun Conference. If you don’t combine that pedigree with magic defense, you can’t make a reasonable argument to rush a player to the big leagues.

Bocock is a fantastic defender. The apocryphal quote – that if the Giants can teach him to be a .260 hitter, he’ll make a lot of money – is absolutely true. He has superlative footwork, great range, and a strong, accurate arm. This brief glimpse of his defense has made me excited about his prospects as a defense-first major league shortstop. But he isn’t magic. He still makes mistakes, and while his hands are steady, they aren’t perfect.

Now that we know that he isn’t magic, let’s reexamine the argument for aggressively promoting Bocock:

* His defense will take pressure off our young strikeout pitchers.

* We, like, totally didn’t have anyone else.

The counterarguments are numerous. He’s hitting like Kirk Rueter with a better eye. That can’t be good for his confidence. Kirk Rueter was a career .153/.187/.167 hitter. Bocock is at .167/.286/.188. Maybe that’s just the small sample size, but I haven’t seen any evidence that would make me think that Bocock is a better hitter than what he’s shown.

If he can learn to hit – if he can rise up from the bottom like some sort of Honus Alger – the Giants would still be in a quandary because of how he was rushed. He might enter his arbitration years early. He might be out of options when he’s right on the cusp of a breakthrough, when a AAA season would do him wonders..

I can’t understand this. In a history of curious moves by Brian Sabean, this is the topper. You have a 40-year-old shortstop and no shortstops of note in the upper minors. How do you enter spring without any sort of backup plan? The current arrangement isn’t good for Bocock, and it isn’t good for the organization. It is also COMPLETELY INSANE. Maybe Vizquel will come back and stay healthy for five months and this wont be an issue for much longer. Yeah, that’s a good plan.

* Just because that feature wasn’t explicitly detailed doesn’t mean that Tony Stark couldn’t find a way to invent it.

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"His defense will take pressure off our young strikeout pitchers"

What would take more pressure off of them is SCORING SOME DAMN RUNS every now and again.

I was THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Apr 17, 2008 12:02 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

You're telling me!

It’s time to get some freikin’ runs on the board. That’s what will relieve the pressure off the pitchers.

Go see my Giants blog at http://www.michaelnewjr.com

by Mike New on Apr 18, 2008 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, maybe

but then they wouldn’t rise to the challenge of giving up no runs every start.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ironically

I think we all really like Bocock despite his horrid hitting.

Maybe it’s becaue he is in a competition w/ Aurilia for being the worst bat on the team?

I really like Bocock, and with that in mind, I think we need to get him out of the ML ASAP and let him learn how to hit. The guy hit .200 in A ball… I’m pretty sure I could hit .200 in Aball.

If he can learn to hit, AT ALL… he will do well. He’s got a great glove now – just imagine what 2-3 seasons will give him.

But frankly, I think I would rather watch him strike out 207 times this season than watch a compromised vizquel.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 12:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Counterpoint:

Since Bocock joined the team, sophomoric anatomical jokes are up 10,000% on this blog.

Castillo has played all of 10 games in the last five seasons at short, but maybe it’s time to slide him over there (as backup to Viz), let Aurilia play third, and have Ortmeier/Bowker platoon at 1st. It sounds like a dumb plan, and it is, but probably no worse than what’s going on now.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 17, 2008 12:19 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Borrowing from Animal House...

I think that this situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody’s part. And this is just the team to do it.

If nothing else, Bococke could probably use a day off.

by out machine on Apr 17, 2008 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Merkin is responsible for at least 1000% of that.

"While conservatives tell you 'leave things alone and no one will lose,' and liberals tell you 'interfere a lot and no one will lose,' baseball says 'someone will lose.' Not only says it - but insists upon it! ... Democracy is lovely, but baseball's more mature." BVCE supports SF Dugout and Manny Burriss.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Apr 17, 2008 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the Thing

We aren’t even talking about Bocock if the rest of this offense could produce any runs. Let’s tackle the big problems first – our lack of a true cleanup hitter, absolutely no power in the lineup, poor clutch hitting – with our 1-7 hitters before we worry about the one defense-first guy in the lineup. Like Grant says, his defense is very good, but his inability to hit is only highlighted because of how bad the rest of this team is at driving in runs.

by SheboyganBratwurst on Apr 17, 2008 12:28 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Poor overall hitting ======> Poor clutch hitting

I was THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Apr 17, 2008 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bocock is a pretty big part of why this lineup up can’t score any runs. he’s played every inning, but one so far this season. at least Aurilia has had some days off to quietly sit on the bench If you replace the worst hitter in the lineup with a good batter, you’ll get a bigger offensive improvement than if you replaced a middling player – say Winn – with a good batter.

Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.

by kennv on Apr 17, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

my feeling is that Bocock was the SS in the minors that they cared the least about fucking up his development, not that he was their best at anything in particular. They didn’t want to hamper the path of the more heralded SS prospects.

by WTF on Apr 17, 2008 12:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

Amazingly though I really am beginning to pull for him – a lot. We already know he can handle one part of the game on the MLB level. To me that puts him far, far ahead of his competitors. Now what the front office should do is attach Omar ( while rehabbing) to his hip can say, " Teach him how to bunt and refine his glove a bit please. Yes there will be a little extra in pay check if you don’t phone it in." and ship them to a nice place for a working vacation. Say San Jose or Fresno or Norwich or something. Throw the guy a freaken bone.

Now were did I put those sharks with laser beams in their noses?

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 18, 2008 7:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The problem with that logic

is that it doesn’t jive with the things the organization’s been saying about him for the last year. Felipe raved about his playmaking abilities during the ‘07 ST saying he was the best SS prospect in the system and could play a great major league SS defensively then (apparently true). They also chose him as a representative for the Futures Game, and while roster-making logistics (and the Baseball America staff) have a lot to do with that, the process as I understand does start with teams submitting a list of players they’d consider sending to the Futures game and that list absolutely does reflect the organization’s thinking about their prospects chances of developing into major leaguers. Bocock was well into his slide and Burriss well into his Low A recovery when they chose Bocock to come to SF for the Futures Game. Both were U.S. born SS. The obvious inference is that the organization considered Bocock to be above Burriss in their prospect depth chart.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Apr 18, 2008 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What a duo

I don’t think EITHER Brian Bocock or Manny Burriss will make it as a legitimate starting shortstop at the major league level. Brian is a fine fielder who isn’t likely to ever hit, and Manny is an OK fielder who has no power. Not that a shortstop has to have a lot of power—but he needs to have enough not to get the bat knocked out of his hands. At least this week Manny has gotten his first two extra-base hits for Fresno (a double and a triple).

But Manny has averaged an horrendous 1.18 bases per hit over his minor league career—and is right about at that level again. The only minor league player with so little power that went on to become a major leaguer of whom I am aware was Jose Vizcaino. And by the time Vizcaino was Burriss’s age, he had already been in the majors for a while.

I think Pablo Sandoval might become the Giants’ catcher of the future, and perhaps Jackson Williams will somehow hit for enough average to supplement his great glove and above-adequate power to become a good backup there. But the Giants have nearly a complete dearth of third baseman how that Angel Villalona has moved from that postion, and while they have four decent shortstop prospects in the above pair along with Charlie Culberson and Sharlon Schoop, the quality level of the shortstop prospects at the plate is quite low IMO.

I can live with the Giants’ future at the other seven positions, but third base seems to be a black hole and shortstop perhaps a gaping one. Rafael Furcal is sounding better and better. :)

by sharksrog on Apr 18, 2008 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well let's see

To be clear, i don’t believe either Bocock or Burriss can be an adequate major league SS either, I was just commenting on what the organization seems to think. In general I think this is a system still incredibly thin (really, outside of Schierholtz is there a player at either AAA or AA who’s even conceivably a major league starting prospect—position player or pitcher? Answer is No). Around the diamond I’d say they lack even 1 potential major league prospect at 3b, have two maybes at SS (Culberson and Schoop with Sharlon my #1), 1 pretty good at 2B (Noonan) with a couple iffys (Downs and Denker) behind him, Villalona and perhaps Neal if he can ever screw his shoulder in straight at 1B with Brett Pill next, nothing other than my irrational love of Pablo Sandoval at C (Jackson Williams has a pretty established track record of being a bad hitter to me) and then in the OF, good god there’s a lot of nothing there. We got the Lewis, Bowker, Schierholtz bunch in AAA and SF, the hopes (though off to a bad start) of Wendell Fairley somewhere and absolutely nothing in between. In fact, after Nate I don’t believe you could stretch your credulity to find another legitimate prospect currently playing OF on any of the Giants 4 minor league teams. Wow that’s depressing. How exactly is this team supposed to be building back to a winner again?

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Apr 18, 2008 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, one problem is that the 3rd string SS is also to the starting 1B. Aurillia hasn’t played much SS the last couple years, but his range factors are above average.

Again, the irony here is that Aurillia is barely outhitting Bocock!

You know you have acheived EPIC FAIL at GM if, by signing Neifi Perez, you’d improve the team.

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Apr 17, 2008 12:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

At least Neifi was juiced...

by SheboyganBratwurst on Apr 17, 2008 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought he was on speed? Was he juiced, too? Man, that is the ULTIMATE argument for proving ‘roids can’t make anyone a hitter!

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Castillo @ SS w/ Aurili @ 3b

Makes some sense, and I can’t beleive I’m recomending starting Richie somewhere…

I think we would miss Bococks defense however. Castillo hasn’t looked exactly brilliant on the hot corner.

Arulia has a lower OBP than bocock and a much higher chance (in my mind) of GIDP. And they way he is hitting, he is headed for sub <.200 in a hurry.

Bocock, right now at least – is proficient at making outs. But at least he only makes 1 out.

So if you want to talk about trying to win games w/ the current roster, then I think Bocock stays (Thats how bad Aurilia is)

If you want to get Bocock back on track, then get him the hell out of MLB.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I keep reading reports that maybe Vizquel will be back soon, and oh, no, maybe he won’t, and maybe he will, but his defense will probably suck, and it’s all terribly vague and non-committal. The more of these reports I see, the more I begin to suspect that he’s going to be out a very long time – maybe even the whole season. If so, and if the Giants can’t bring in someone else, or replace Bocock with Burriss or SOMETHING, Bocock could well end up having the worst offensive season of any regular player in recent memory. Thanks, Sabean.

by jcb9 on Apr 17, 2008 12:56 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

And the sad thing is

It’s not even his fault.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And it didn't have to go down this way

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 1:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting Point

It really is completely insane to have him be the answer for anything more than a week, which was the initial prognosis for Omar’s return. I think the Omar re-signing and the Bococki decision are an indictment of Sabean’s vision in player development and roster construction. They had to sign Vizquel because there was no other answer in the organization! And when he went under the knife, this was the answer?

by out machine on Apr 17, 2008 1:07 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Send him down

It made some sense to let Bocock start the season here as long as it was a limited commitment, and even then, they should have let a AAA or AA shortstop have the opportunity. But with Vizquel now seemingly done for the first half of the season, if not for his career, the Giants need to pivot and let the kid go back to the minors and continue his development as a hitter through the system.

The only reason not to do this would be if Bocock was a singular defensive presence on a team with a passable offense. This is not the case at all; Bocock is a good defender on an atrocious offensive team, a team that cannot waste any slots in the batting order on sub-.200 hitters. What many folks don’t realize is that with any offense at all, and with this pitching, the Giants can almost be a .500 team.

One of the other minor league shortstops with a little more hitting at higher levels and a good glove should be brought up now as Vizquel’s replacement for this year while Bocock is given the chance to learn how to hit.

by Buck Henry on Apr 17, 2008 1:08 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

I realize that, but no one wants to listen to me.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did someone say something?

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on Apr 17, 2008 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I’m pretty sure that was just the breeze coming through the window.

SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear

by Natto on Apr 17, 2008 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's a window in this place?

Holy crap, I should really look around every now and then.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 17, 2008 7:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes there is a window.

And if you look across the way at the wrong time you can see a hairy guy wondering around undressed in the apartment across the way.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 18, 2008 7:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

glad I haven’t looked up since I walked in.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That’s just Goofus.

SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear

by Natto on Apr 18, 2008 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

As bad as it is that Brian Bocock is playing for a major league team...

Is it even worst thing on this roster?

Consider our Opening Day starting lineup:

At First Base: A 36-year-old shortstop.
At Second Base: The reanimated corpse of Ray Durham.
At Shortstop: A guy who has never played in the major leagues. Or AAA, or AA. And the only thing he has shown in one season of A-ball is that he can’t hit single-A pitching.
At Third Base: A guy who literally was not a Giant the previous week! He was declared unfit to warm bench for the Florida Marlins but is our Opening Day third baseman!

How can Sabean live with himself after cobbling together this lineup? This offense would be below average even in triple-A!

by sfmaynard on Apr 17, 2008 1:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

weeeel

You must admit, nobody saw that lineup coming in December or so. Brain S. ANNOUNCES HIS PRESENCE WITH AUTHORITY!!11!

by natteringnabob on Apr 17, 2008 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Castillo has actually been alright...

he’s second in the NL in doubles and actually hit’s pretty consistently.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Joe Castle

Castillo has been fine so far, but the fact that he was our Opening Day third baseman is still shocking/inexcusable. He wasn’t even on the team until Spring training was almost over!

I imagine the following dialogue:

Sabean: Spring training is almost over, what do you think of this opening day lineup?
Asst GM: But Brian, a baseball team has nine players, not eight!
Sabean: Shoot! I’d better hire a Third Baseman! Can you hand me that Yellow Pages?

by sfmaynard on Apr 17, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He’s OBP is .279. Castillo = Feliz + Contact – (power + defense).

You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Apr 17, 2008 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

YUCK

Why couldn’t we have just kept Feliz, and not gotten Rowand? And why did we need Zito? And…

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Apr 17, 2008 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I expect the power to show up. The doubles show his swing is there, and his 24 and 25 year old season (05, 06) he hit double digit homeruns. If he keeps batting 250-275, and his doubles, the HRs will come. If he falls apart….

Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.

by kennv on Apr 17, 2008 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

he’s basically free. Isn’t it nice having a player fo’ free? Plus, he’s better than Wes Helms.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 4:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yup! Yup!! Yup!!!

he also has this new invention called ” upside”. Its rather yummy. Can we have some more please Mr. Sabean?

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 18, 2008 7:40 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

mmmmm…..upside…..

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 9:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please, won’t somebody think of the Frandsen?

I think he would have been okay backing up Viz, and starting at 3B every day. It isn’t great that he was THE backup guy, but I think it would’ve worked out. Castillo could’ve been a lot worse.

Could it be the Giants’ don’t think Bocock will ever hit, and are just using him while they can? I’ve read several chats elsewhere, and most scouts questions his ability at all. If that is the case, why not bring him up for his defense for a couple of weeks (projection on Vizquel’s injury), then throw him back? In this case, it could be they felt they were not retarding his devolpment, there is just no devolping to happen.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even so...

...if that were the case, why not Ochoa? He’s not a top prospect, so no worries about hurting his development. He’s supposed to be good defensively (I’ve never seen him myself) and hit better at AAA last year than Bocock did at single-A.

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s just such a weird decision. The standard, conservative choice would be handing the job to Ivan Ochoa, for no other reason than that he’s the highest-ranking shortstop in the organization after Vizquel. If they were being really creative they’d send Aurilia back to short, or pluck some AAAA shortstop from another org. But pulling a no-hit glove man out of A-ball? When has that ever been done? And then never pinch-hitting for him …

Bocock deserves a lot of respect for the way he approached his early at-bats, though. Most players in his position would go up there hacking, trying to prove himself. But he focused on working the count and trying to get on base, and it really helped the team. Too bad that trick isn’t working any more.

by Evan on Apr 17, 2008 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs

The scouting report was out.

Throw it hard and down the middle, and he can’t hit it.

Too bad he doesn’t get to face Zito now and then….

And yes, it is a weird decision – I still don’t understand it.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to mention

You can’t pinch-hit for someone (too often) for whom you don’t have a replacement on the bench. If we get bases loaded 2 outs in the 4th w/ bocock up and pinch for him – then who comes in to play SS?

Aurilia maybe, Castillo maybe – but there is a lack of depth there.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lastly.

Bocock has gotten more respect from me than almost anyone else on the team for the way he approaches the plate. I think thats the reason that we all generally like him despite how poorly he hits.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nuff respect

Bocock has done all that could be expected, and more. Unless anyone expected him to change water into wine and then walk on it.

What’s baffling about Ochoa is that they didn’t even seem to give him much consideration. They tried Frandsen at short, and when that didn’t work they went straight to Bocock. Ochoa got reassigned to minor league camp with 10 days left in ST.

Ochoa was once rated by Baseball America as the top defensive infielder in the Indians’ farm system. He hit passably at Fresno last year (.296/.337/.430) and his ZiPS projection for this season was .249/.307/.324, which is right around what Bocock did last year in San Jose. And he may not dance like Omar, but apparently he can sing.

Why on earth would you not at least give Ochoa a shot? Isn’t a situation like this exactly the reason why an organization keeps guys like Ochoa around even if he doesn’t figure in long-term plans?

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There must be something there we don’t know about. I’m not sure what it is, but maybe Bocock has pictures of Larry Baer’s…

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s pretty simple, really. Ochoa stunk in ST, he is still stinking in Fresno. He is stinking so bad in Fresno, he isn’t even the everyday SS. And it isn’t just his Mendoza – or sub Mendoza – hitting, he is committing errors in droves. Or bushels, or bunches, or multiples. For whatever reason, he has become simply awful, not even worthy of his AAA roster spot.

by allfrank on Apr 17, 2008 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's not accurate...

...of the 14 games the Grizzlies have played through tonight, Ochoa has started at SS in 10 of them, including 5 of the last 7. Burriss has started three games and Wald one. If he’s not the everyday SS, who is? He’s committed 3 errors (Bocock has 2).

It’s true that he is ice cold at the plate right now – his batting line looks remarkably like Bocock’s. In ST, he got a grand total of 15 at-bats in 4 starts. That’s not much of a chance to get on track.

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

For what it’s worth, the only minor-league fielding metric I know of - Dan Fox’s SFR, found at Baseball Prospectus - rates Ochoa as a solidly above-average shortstop from 2005-07. And there can’t be any question that he’s a substantially better hitter than Bocock at this point.

by Evan on Apr 18, 2008 6:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Where do you get the SFR

for Ochoa?

ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524

by rfloh on Apr 18, 2008 8:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

here

Scroll a quarter of the way down to the “download a spreadsheet” link.

Looking at this again, what catches my eye is that the number one third baseman in the minor leagues - indeed, the number one infielder of any sort - is Ryan Rohlinger.

by Evan on Apr 18, 2008 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

With every day in the majors..

the (remote) chance of Bocock developing into a useful player goes down significantly. Getting embarassed every day and seeing that he is overmatched has to destroy his confidence to a point where there is no coming back from, doesn’t it?

by AngelWillSaveUs on Apr 17, 2008 1:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

i don't think these kids are THAT fragile

Trying to hit major league pitching isn’t doing him any good—every day he’s up here is a day he can’t improve by hitting against more appropriate pitching competition. But I don’t think it will destroy him either. To get this far you’ve got to be tough and resilient, no?

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 17, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You would think so.

If anything, when he goes back to A or maybe AA ball it’s going to seem so much easier to him… I don’t think it would cause him to regress, just retard.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Possibly...

but getting shown you can’t do something over and over has to be discouraging. A lot has to do with his mental make-up definitely, but as a whole I think there is a better chance it harms him than helps. It seems most baseball people agree that rushing a young player is bad.

by AngelWillSaveUs on Apr 17, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

All the more reason

We won’t see Angel during the Caincecum Era :)

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

How long do you think the Caincecum Era will last?

I’m counting on at least one of those guys being a Giant for quite a few years.

¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!

by hairball on Apr 17, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

We can “count on” both of these guys up through their free agency. I think @ that point, there is a significanlt y higher chance of burnout/injury/free agency taking one of them away from us.

The free agency threat can be mitigated by building a winning team. the Injury & Burnout… well – cross your fingers?

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 18, 2008 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

crossing fingers

is about all you can do with young pitchers. The attrition rate is quite high, and alot of it seems to be pure luck.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mentally Brian’s fine. He’s working hard to improve his hitting taking extra bp every day, working with Lansford and doing everything he can to contribute.

Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster.

by RichH on Apr 17, 2008 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

that’s quite a large family you got there…

by WTF on Apr 17, 2008 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hosted them during their time in SK.

Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster.

by RichH on Apr 17, 2008 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

very cool!

by WTF on Apr 17, 2008 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

“Mentally Brian’s fine…”
I started reading and thought you were talking about Sabean!!

by AGiantAmongMarlins on Apr 18, 2008 6:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

What I'd like to see.

Move Castillo to SS.

Bring up McClain or Leone to play 3b. The smart thing to do in this case would be to DL aurilia or something. But they won’t do any of this so its moot.

And Boom Goes the Dynamite

by Andy from DC on Apr 17, 2008 1:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Also, since I've heard absolutly nothing to stop me, note my new signature.

Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.

by Andy from DC on Apr 17, 2008 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bringing up McClain or Leone accomplishes little to nothing...

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Disagreed. They hit better than Richie.

Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.

by Andy from DC on Apr 17, 2008 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And both have as much for helping the giants contend as he does.

At least arurilia can play multiple positions.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Leone can play those positions and CF.

Center Field!!!!!

Adopted papa of a bouncing new waiver wire 27 year old. Castillo hits doubles.

by kennv on Apr 17, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Aurilia was facing AAA pitching...

...his batting line would be a lot better too.

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not that different

Regardless, at this point, I’d be happier seeing Leone on the team than Aurilia. Richie just seems to have nothing left in the tank (besides, now that Bonds and ROrtiz are gone, being the last source of nostalgia for the good ol’ days, sniff)

by SnowLeopard on Apr 17, 2008 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm willing

to give Richie a couple of months before I decide he should be DFA’d. He looks like his front foot is sliding before the pitch, and therfore hi bat is dragging. He may turn it around, or he may be done. I’m willing to wait it out. I really don’t think Ort is the 1B of the future, so I don’t mind that Aurilia is getting AB’s. As long as Bowker continues to get AB’s….

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bocock reminds me of Pedro Feliz

A+ defense, great attitude, hard worker, good team guy, really wants to help the Giants win. Just not talented enough.

He’s a player you really really want to be good enough, but he just isn’t.

The way he’s been hitting, though, makes Pedro Feliz look Bondsian by comparison.

by sfmaynard on Apr 17, 2008 1:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

only Feliz can hit every once in awhile. Poor Bocock is just not handy with the wood (10,001% !)

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I must disagree

Bocock already has ten thousand times the plate discipline Feliz had, and that was what really stopped Feliz from being a decent hitter.

On the other hand, Bocock will never have Feliz’s power, which was what tricked some people into thinking Feliz might someday be a decent hitter.

by jcb9 on Apr 17, 2008 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

plate discipline, or terrified to swing the bat? Not making fun of B-Bo, just wondering.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i wonder the same thing

high % of walks in his first few ABs had me excited (curse you, small sample size!), but now it looks more like he has no plan up there.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 17, 2008 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's discipline

I belive his strong drop-off in walks is because pitchers figured out they didn’t have to nibble with him, just pound the zone, cause he won’t hit it.

I haven’t seen him swing @ too many balls, and he still takes a good amount of pitches per at bat.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope you’re right. Hopefully Lansford can take out 90% of his swing, and he can hit .260.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

with that glove and his propensity to take a walk, I would settle for .240 with OBP of .330

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also think there is a chance

That at first, he was very timid @ the plate and would only swing at a very small % of pitches. He had some success with that approach and perhaps had gained some confidence (hey, this hitting thing ain’t so hard!) opened up his options a little more, resulting in more swing and misses and more weak ground balls.

Essentially regressing. Also, Lansford may be encouraging him to swing the bat more ‘cause “ya can’t hit it if ya don’t swing”.

If he settles down and get’s back to his “roots” only swinging @ fastballs down the middle of the zone, he may pick the walk rate back up and click out a few singles, too.

I know that If I had the early relative success he did, I would probably start to think I could hit and offer @ a few more pitches.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

At some point it transcends plate discipline

Pedro wasn’t just lacking in Discipline – his problem was he actually thought those were good pitches to hit.

He just couldn’t see the ball.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

When is the next time John Bowker comes to bat?

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 1:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

If you think about it...

Who, honestly… thought that Bowker would hit this well in the majors so soon?

In my estimation (no, I haven’t polled any one, done a statistcial regression of this data, or adone nything mildly resembling research on this factor) Bowker is twice as good as we thought he would be. No one could have expected this.

On the other hand, we knew Bocock was a dreadful hitter. I’d rather be supriesed twice over by Bowker than have both of them be average.

That made little sense.

Angel Villalona: Get Mean!

by AngelintheInfield on Apr 17, 2008 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

typoriffic!

It’s hard to type when your boss is in the same room. I probably closed the window 10 times while writing that.

Angel Villalona: Get Mean!

by AngelintheInfield on Apr 17, 2008 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I've never smoked pot, let alone at work, but...

... aren’t you supposed to open the window when the boss comes in?

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on Apr 17, 2008 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I heard this...Joe Crede guy is having a pretty good year so far

Maybe we could trade for him and put Castillo at short!

Proud pappa of....STEVE HOLM!!

by UnleashTheGore on Apr 17, 2008 2:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Joe Crede

With that back and only 1 yr left on contract he is not a good fit. Now if Pedro Alvarez continues his huge salary demands we can all hope he falls to SF at the #5 pick in the June draft.

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

And then is ML ready in what, 4 years?

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Optimistic Week

Was hoping Pedro Alvarez would not only fall to #5 but the Giants sign him and he takes the “Will Clark FasTrack” to success as a ML hitter.

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Should be less than that

With a highly rated college hitter, it wouldn’t be unusual to send him straight to AA this year and hope to see him as a September callup as early as 2009. Best case would be the Ryan Zimmerman path (drafted in June 2005, in the Nats opening day lineup for 2006).

Worst case would be the Tony Torcato career path, but let’s not think about that…

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

but if he goes to Dodd, he’ll smash the ball all year and end up with .222 .301 12 55. Stupid ballpark (stamping feet now).

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know there are a ton of caveats...

Like sample size, the unreliability of defensive metrics and whatnot, but is Bocock really such a fantastic defender?

The Hardball Times has him making only 29 of 36 total plays in zone, he has a 94 RATE2, -1 RAA. Is it possible that we’re just buying into the company line without really questioning it?

Empirically speaking, I’m of two minds. There have been a couple groundballs to the left of second base that I was absolutely certain would have been caught, but Bocock didn’t end up within 4 feet of them. But then I see a ducksnort to shallow left that I’m equally certain will fall for a hit, and Bocock streaks in from out of nowhere to make the play.

by Steve on Apr 17, 2008 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I kind

of agree with you, there have been a few balls up the middle I thought we would get to, but his play on ground balls in the hole (plus the arm to strhow guys out) has been fantastic. I’m thinking he is that good, and as he grows to know the pitching staff and opposing hitters his defense will improve even more.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I concur.

He hasn’t got every ball, but it’s the tough balls that he does get, and then is able to convert into outs that makes him impressive.

As he learns to anticipate better he will become even better.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I like Bocock but

FREE IVAN OCHOA

SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear

by Natto on Apr 17, 2008 2:43 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Really?

That’s what we’re down to? Free Ivan Ochoa?

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

That’s what we’re down to.

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on Apr 17, 2008 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can we put Ochoa’s achilles tendon into Frandsen’s leg?

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Call Schilling's doctor.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

VIVA THE BLOODY SOCK!

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

by SnowLeopard on Apr 17, 2008 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

JUST LOOK HOW TOUGH HE IS!

God, I hate him.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

"Ketchup! Ketchup! Ketchup!"

One of the best heckles of all time.

DFA all Giants over 34 years old.

by Mayor of 311 on Apr 17, 2008 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

but that is the crazy thing about it. SF has used a spot on the 40-man roster on Bocock while they would have to use another spot if they called up either Ochoa, Burriss, LeMaster, Lanier,Speier

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

LeMaster’s available? WTF isn’t he playing!!!

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 2:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Because small town San Francisco is bitter and probably would “Boo” LeMaster

by wilriv21 on Apr 17, 2008 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course we're bitter

All these years of losing would do that to anyone.

If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?

by groug on Apr 17, 2008 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Am I the only one

that would rather see Bocock play than Vizquel. Vizquel isn’t exactly a great hitter himself, so it’s not like we’re adding whole lot to this team by bringing back our 40 year old short stop thats not going to be back after this season. Sure, Bocock can’t hit, but neither could Vizquel or Ozzie Smith in their first couple years in the majors. Where are we going this year to warrant sending down Bocock? I’d rather just let him get all the experience he can, then work on what he needs in the offseason.

by superk1ng on Apr 17, 2008 5:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

ZOMG But the hitting will destroy his ego please no how can you suggest that..

Yeah, honestly I don’t think its hurting him that much. Just let him play.

Tentatively adopting Dan Ortmeier. And Boom Goes the Dynamite.

by Andy from DC on Apr 17, 2008 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed. I feel a bit biased but I don’t know if Omar will make it back or be up to snuff if he does.

I used to go watch the Mariners years ago when Omar was young and Edgar actually played third base and Omar was essentially an out every time he got in the batters box. He more or less figured it out, I’m sure Bo can do the same.

Adopted father of Brian Bocock, Brad Boyer, Sharlon Schoop, Shane Jordan and Jeremiah Luster.

by RichH on Apr 17, 2008 5:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While I agree that Vizquel is largely useless at this point, I don’t think your argument holds up. For every player like Vizquel, who manages to turn himself into a solid hitter, there are dozens and dozens who never manage to be anything more than terrible. While it’s possible Bocock will develop into a productive hitter, it’s not probable, let alone certain.

by jcb9 on Apr 17, 2008 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, that did pique my interest...

...so I went and checked what Vizquel looked like a month into his rookie season:

.123/.194/.123. Zero XBH. Four walks.

On the other hand, he had only 4 Ks, in 57 ABs. A big concern with Bocock is that he isn’t even managing to make contact.

I am worried about whether Vizquel is going to be able to come back and play decent baseball. A knee brace and pushed out recovery schedule are not encouraging signs.

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bocock isn’t making outs by swinging at bad pitches, or junk that drops out of the zone. Pitchers are going right at him, fastballs down the middle, to which he can’t catch up. There is no future there. If you can’t hit a FB you’re never going to learn – it isn’t about p[itch recognition, he simply doesn’t have the ability/bat speed to hit against professional pitchers.

by allfrank on Apr 17, 2008 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

He may not be putting the ball in to play

but at least he’s working the count http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/batting?split=0&;league=nl&season=2008&seasonType=2&sort=pitchesPerPlateAppearance&type=exp&ageMin=17&ageMax=51&state=0&college=0&country=0&hand=a&pos=all
4th in major league baseball in pitches per plate appearance.

by superk1ng on Apr 17, 2008 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sabean's Worst Moves

Starting Bocock doesn’t comapre at all to the Nathan/Accardo trades or the signings of Zito, Roberts, Aurilia, Kline and Durham (Type A free agent) last off-season. However, signing Vizquel and giving him a $2 million dollar raise after he showed signs of deterioration by hitting 50 points worse than a year before was insane, especially when the Cardinals or White Sox may have signed him and we would have gotten a Comp pick for a 41 year old who is done. Even worse than that is not having a back-up plan and forcing Bocock along, ruining any chance for him to ever develop into a decent hitter which he may not have done anyway. I’d have rather seen us sign Cesar Izturis, Adam Everett, made a trade or gone with Ochoa or Castillo there. All would have been cheaper than Vizquel and we’d have 3 high picks instead of 2 and all would have been equally shitty to the Bocock/Vizquel combination, slightly worse in some cases defensively, slightly better offensively in comparison to Bocock. And at the same time we could develop Bocock at a pace that makes sense.

by mark30perq3 on Apr 17, 2008 6:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually

Everett would’ve made sense, but he was not available at the time the Giants’ re signed Viz. I understand Viz fell off a cliff with the bat last year, but I do think there is something to be said for the professionalism he brings to the team, and if you are going you (which the Giants’ are), then you couldn’t ask for a better teacher. As much as we all were frustrated with Matt Morris, I firmly believe that he had a huge hand in making Cain the pitcher he is today. I think IF Viz can get back on the field, he will have a similar influence on many of the current and future Giants’ that will see time this season.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 6:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not that frustrated with Morris.

I would take him over Zito right now as the “Staff Veteran”.

Morris was a savage, and while he has lost some stuff in his later years, he always gives 110%. I think he hugely influenced the kind of pitcher Matt Cain became.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 18, 2008 7:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

No free pass for Sabean on Everett.

True Everett was not released tell after Omar was signed. But the Astros had been trying to drum up any interest in him for 2 years. And nothing prevented Sabean from signing both. I do mean nothing besides himself. Everett could have been the utility man while Frandsen either splits time with Durham or goes into steel cage death match with the rest of the super scrubs at third.

In the last several years I am not sure which is the emotionally lower point for me. The Hillenbrand trade or actually having a case of Everett envy. The whole decision on to pass Everett is the front office equivalent to watching a player get picked off a yard off first because he is staring at a blonde Ta Tass in the box seats. Sabean & Co owe me big time for both.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 18, 2008 8:10 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

But isn’t Everett starting for the Twins? Granted, I haven’t seen a single game of theirs, but why would Evertt even want to sign with the Giants’ as a back up IF this season? At least the Twins have a shot at being competitive, and he gets to play every day.

What prospect would you have given up for Everett? I’m pretty sure the Astros would not have wanted an of the the usual list we all want to see traded.

While I am evious of how well Accardo is doing, I’m not sure that’s such an awful trade. Yes, Hillenbrand sucked, but I thought he wouldve been an okay fit in front of Bonds, and Chulk has been servicable, if nothing else.

I like the idea of a steel cage death match. Can I nominate Roberts and Durham, assuming they both manage to be off the DL at the same time?

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

First given is I don’t have a hot to trot, burning love for Everett. But he is a very good glove. The last couple years probably Omar’s defensive equal or near to it. I just viewed him as a "cheep" bandage/ insurance policy the front office could of acquire to hedge the teams risks for a season or two.

If we want to jump into the magic phone booth and revisit ‘07 ( we must love pain) offer Blackly or Bregg for example. That team is desperate for anything with a near MLB level arms once past Oswalt. But it is a red herring question. The fact the Astros were shopping him means he was getting near to waiver wire status so why not keep your eyes open for when he does?

As for why he would sign with Giants. 1) First you have to offer to the player. 2) If you’re a infield player which team is less likely develop or have enough developed infield help to bench you when you are doing poorly? The ‘08 Twins or the ‘08 Giants? Which team is more likely to offer you either a second year ( hint not the Twins) of the most playing time so you can be in a better position to bargain for your next contract this winter?

Hillenbrand was an awful trade. We have up 4+ years of team control of a good young pitcher who was not yet dominate for 4 months of a scrub first baseman. Oh and we were barely near 500 behind multiple teams in the division when we did it. It’s a worthy risk if the team was up more in the standings but they were not so it was stupid.

I agree with your steel cage nominees. Unfortunately Sabean era Gains exempts those over 33 with 4+ years of M.L.B experience.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 19, 2008 9:19 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point was that we should have waited before re-signing Vizquel, found out what type of free agent he was while looking at other options. Instead, we signed him quickly despite his age and lack of production last year. At this point, I think another Comp pick is more valuable to the organization than a 41 year-old on his last leg. I think veteran leadership is completely overrated. I’ll take talent over savvy any day. Also, I would basically be fine with anyone at SS, not just Everett, as long as we got a draft pick for Vizquel and didn’t have to rush Bocock up.

by mark30perq3 on Apr 18, 2008 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

with the talent over savvy, but the SS crop was very thin this offseason. I also kind of agree on the pick, but I don’t think it was a bad deal.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Seems like a small issue, so I'll just make it as a comment

The site seems to be being a little glitchy right now in IE7. Might just be me, or it might stop happening in the next few minutes, but using IE right now I’m not able to click the “reply” button. It just sends me up to the top of the page when I try. Just a heads up in case it’s happening for others and/or doesn’t go away pretty soon.

No problems in firefox, though, so it’s a pretty minor annoyance overall.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 17, 2008 10:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs