Lineup

by tellusfrank on Apr 16, 2008 4:37 PM PDT Comment 48 comments

I hope it's clear to Bochy and Sabean that the lunatic fringe's cry for a youth movement is not just based on our fondness for young people, but that (for the giants at least) there's a strong correlation between youth and talent/production. Sabean needs to clean house between now and the trading deadline. Before then, I'd like to see this liuneup:

2B Eugenio Velez (S) - work on bunting game and try every other game

RF Randy Winn (S) - job is to advance runner, put ball in play, avoid GIDP

LF Fred Lewis (L) - gives him chance to produce runs, get on before "big bats"

CF Aaron Rowand - whatever

1B John Bowker (L) - our big bopper

C Benji Molina - might get most rbi opportunity in this hole, avoid "base-clogging"

3B Jose Castillo - our Feliz, without the D

SS Omar Vizquel (S) - whatever

After trade deadline, assuming Sabes can move Winn, Molina, Vizquel

2B Velez

LF Lewis

CF Rowand

1B Bowker

3B Any young blocked guy

RF Schierholtz

C Steve Holm, any young blocked guy

SS Any young blocked guy

the whole point of this post is to make the case that schierholtz needs to start after the trading deadline, but in the meantime, give us a lineup that's not embarrassing, makes some sense, and even mildly interesting.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

0 recs | Comment 48 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Youthful Enthusiam

I can understand the preference for younger talented players but the “after” line-up and team composition could benefit from a couple of grizzly veterans. Most appreciably Bengie Molina to continue working with the young pitching staff. Also enjoy the quiet fire he brings to the team.

by wilriv21 on Apr 16, 2008 4:46 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

would enjoy more a catcher who might be on the next Giants team with a decent chance of winning something

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Apr 16, 2008 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Our philosophies are not mutually exclusive. Molina could be around guiding the young pitching staff the next few seasons while the organization finds a catcher who can be groomed to take over. In a few seasons Molina could be the back-up catcher who provides sage advice to his younger teammates.

by wilriv21 on Apr 16, 2008 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely right. Molina should stay unless a groomed catcher is ready to take over

by silentearth36 on Apr 16, 2008 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with molina

If we could actually get some talent for him and/or money I would trade him while his value is high. If we can’t however, I don’t think Holm is the answer and we should keep molina. Maybe we could offer him arbitration and have him decline, giving us a draft pick. As for 3b and ss, I really don’t think bringing rohlinger back up really solves anything, the thing is we don’t have any blocked third basemen, so unless your talking about trading for one from another org. like ian stewart (we would never get him) I don’t see where your going with that. For ss though, if burriss keeps playing good, I wouldn’t mind seeing him, he’s supposed to have velez/game changing speed.

by zeisenbe on Apr 16, 2008 5:10 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

for 3B and SS, and C I mean blocked guys from other teams, considering that we really don’t have any guys for those positions in the minors. burriss is at least a year away and seems like the way they’re treating him, his D will not play at short. rohlinger I think is like Ortmeir, interesting talent, some power, but his bat will not play at the mlb level as even an average starter. The catcher position should be a fill-in until Pablito is ready in two years as I doubt we’ll be able to acquire even an above average catching prospect for any veteran we have.

if we can fill at least 3B and SS with some value blocked prospects for molina, winn, and vizquel, that’ll be most ideal. while b-money I admit has been a surprisingly above-average signing by Sabean, I feel bad for him, vizquel, and winn. part of me want them moved so that they can go to a contender.

Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

by tellusfrank on Apr 16, 2008 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you beleieve that

Pablo will be the next catcher for the Giants? I love you enthusiasm and hate to admit that I am not that well versed on him. Do you think his bat and D will play at the next level?

I am Cameron Wood and this is my son and business partner CW Culberson.

by camwoody on Apr 17, 2008 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's too early to tell, personally

But he does seem to have significant upside. I’ve seen him catch a couple of games in person, and he seems sound back there. He’s tearing it up at the plate in San Jose, but since he’s repeating in A+, I don’t know if that’s a great indicator of his true talent. I’m going to reserve judgment until i see how he performs at AA/AAA, which hopefully he’ll get a chance to do soon.

I like the guy a lot, and look forward to seeing him with the big club someday.

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 17, 2008 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's too bad

that the Defenders are in such a pitcher’s park, and the Grizz are in such a hitter’s park. I know you can’t find exactly neutral parks at every level, but damn. Makes it hard to properly evaluate player, don’t you think? Maybe we should just look at road splits for all the Defenders, the way that Dodd plays.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 9:25 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

i am in hearty agreeance

I don’t mind the hitter friendliness of the PCL nearly as much as I mind the pitcher friendliness of Dodd (at least as it affects our hitting prospects). I know one of the reasons Pablito is still in SJ is to work on his catching with a particular coach (whose name escapes me at the moment), but he’s gotta get sent to AA at some point during this season.

Oh, and let’s not forget that we’ve got Jackson Williams waiting in the wings!

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Apr 17, 2008 9:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not even

sure about the PCL. In a lot of ways, it really is tougher to pitch there than in the bigs, and that just seems wrong. I feel bad for anyone who has to pitch against the C. Springs Sky Sox (elevation 6500’).

We should start a petition to tear down Dodd Stadium, to see how well these guys actually progress. Who know how many players may have stalled because they just couldn’t hit their way out of that park.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

On the other hand, if a player DOES do well at Connecticut it’s a good sign he’s a future stud. John Bowker would be an example of that. I don’t agree with all the complaints about Connecticut. I would thnk that playing in a pitcher’s park is a good preparation for when the kids get to ATT. They’re going to be eventually playing in a pitcher’s park, so why put them in bandboxes??

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Apr 18, 2008 5:35 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t want bandboxes, either. I would like to see neutral ballparks all the way through the system, that’s all. As a young hitter it must be crushing to feel like you’re hitting well, but posting an awful line because of your ballpark. I think that may have something to do with hittier stalling in the minors.

Good point about Bowker, though. Perhaps road splits tell a truer tale for our boys in Norwich.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 7:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pablo is turning into as good a prospect as we have in the minors. I see no problem with him repeating high A since the most exciting aspect of his prospect status is his age, he’s still a bit young for the league. If he can continue his progress both offensively and defensively, meaning no injuries and such, I see no reason why we shouldn’t be excited about him as people were excited about Salty. I’m not saying he’s Salty right now, but Pablo has a pretty high ceiling imho.

Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

by tellusfrank on Apr 17, 2008 4:55 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you don’t think he can be bumped to AAA? He sure wouldn’t be taking anybody’s spot there. I know he’s young, and I just don’t want to see him stall at AA, that’s all.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice ideas, but...

you don’t really mention any players aside from “guys who are blocked” to fill in positions the Giant’s plan to improve on after the deadline. Even if Winn, Molina, or Durham have success, not many teams will go out on a limb on any of these guys and give up young players even if they are being blocked.

A more realistic situation would be to put some pitching together and go after legitimate prospect pieces that could grow in our farm system.

A couple guys I like out of the Mariners system right now are catcher Adam Moore and 3B Matt Mangini. Not immediate impact players, but maybe in a year or two will be legit.

I’d say wait out the off season and sign Hank Blalock and trade for Ben Zobrist, but that’s just me.

by lodidodi on Apr 16, 2008 6:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Blalock’s injury history scares me off. I wouldn’t want to touch him.

Don’t forget Frandsen will be back as well, and I do think he can play a little bit.

The list of 3B looks pretty grim for next season:
Third basemen
Casey Blake (35)
Hank Blalock (28) – $6.2MM club option for ‘09 with a $0.25MM buyout
Joe Crede (31)
Morgan Ensberg (33)
Nomar Garciaparra (35)
Wes Helms (33) – $3.75MM club option for ‘09
Chipper Jones (37) – $8-11MM vesting option for ‘09
Dallas McPherson (27)

so I say dump every cent you can find into Mark Texeria, even knowing you’ll have to overpay.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Big Tex & another Brinks truck.

I would love to see Big Tex in S.F. But with the Zito albatross & Rowand’s contract I am not so sure I want to pay the price. As Giants fan’s we are fortunate that the franchise can afford to carry some dead weight contracts but I fear the team is starting to get itself into late 90’s tell now Dodgers business model.

We also have to address Cain & Tim in the next 24 months I think. That will not break the bank but it should be a pretty penny. If any of the higher end young pitcher catch fire, or some position player prospect, the team needs to be able to swing that as well. I get the feeling Big Tex if the right player at the wrong time. The wrong time mainly due to the Zito & Rowand contracts.

Year Zito Rowand Total

‘09 18.5 8 24.5 mil
‘10 18.5 12 30.5 mil
‘11 18.5 12 30.5 mil
‘12 19 12 31 mil
‘13 20— 20 mil

It like Sabean has almost created a lesser 3 headed version of the Rockies contract with Helton. Figures lifted from Cot’s.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 20, 2008 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

For lords sake why can we use tabs to keep tables neat?

Try this again…

Year-—-—Zito-—-—Rowand-——Total

‘09-—-—-18.5-—-—-— 8-—-— 24.5 mil
‘10-—-—-18.5-—-—-—12-—-- 30.5 mil
‘11 --—-—18.5 --—-—-12-—-- 30.5 mil
‘12 --—-—19.0 --—-—-12 --——31 mil
‘13-—-—- 20.0 —-—— 0 —-- 20 mil

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 20, 2008 9:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I can't

I can’t think of a single way at this time that the Giants can avoid playing an embarrassing lineup. They have no more than two players - and possibly none - who would start on a good team.

Rowand and Molina are decent players—but they are role players, not players to build around. With the Giants, they are the only two players who have much of a chance to hit at an above-average pace for their respective positions.

The Washington Nationals, who spend no money, have a better everyday lineup than the Giants. The Giants have outscored two teams in the entire major leagues. They have outscored the Padres by two runs - in two more games. And they have outscored the Rockies by three - in three more games.

By the way, the Giants’ hitting WILL get better as the season goes along. But it will still likely be the worst in all the major leagues.

by sharksrog on Apr 16, 2008 6:51 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

So you're saying...

as long as the Giants’ play more games, they’ll score more runs? Neat. 200 game schedule for the Giants’ this year!

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 7:49 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Nationals lineup may be better than the Giants, but it’s not that much better, and their Opening Day starter was Odalis Perez, a pitcher that wouldn’t even make our staff. All that talk about the Giants’ being the worst team in baseball has stopped now that the games are actually being played. Maybe our motto for 2008 should be, “yeah, we’re bad. But not as bad as you thought!!”

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Apr 18, 2008 5:39 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bocock

Everyone says he doesn’t have a major league-ready bat (and thus far he hasn’t done much to disprove the critics, with a .174 BA and .492 OPS, but with a great glove and, catch this, 4 SB in a little over two weeks - why not give him a chance instead of looking for a blocked player we’d have to give away talent from another team? I’ve heard Velez, Rajai, and even Fred Lewis noted as speedsters, but not Bocock so much - hopefully he can keep that up. It’s just weird to think that the Giants have speed. Giants. Speed. Just don’t flow quite right.

Also, from other discussions, Bowker didn’t play 1B in the minors and thus one can only think he won’t in the majors.

And what about Frandsen? It’d be so cool to be talking about him at this point in the season, say at 3B. Ugh.

I’d love to see Rajai play more often, take away ABs from Winn at least for the time being

by sedashoon on Apr 16, 2008 9:40 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I’m pretty sure you’ll be seeing Bowker at first in the near future. He even moved over to first for a few innings in today’s game.

SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear

by Natto on Apr 16, 2008 11:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would much rather see Winn. I think Raj is not an MLB player at all, and Winn is. As someone else has pointed out, however, Rajai Davis does lead the league in not being Matt Morris, and that is an important catagory.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Raj is also tied for 2nd

in the NL in SB w/ Bocock, which is pretty good for a guy who has 16 ab’s.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 7:54 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

true

but he’s gotta be leading the league in bad AB’s. He just totally looks overmatched right now.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 7:56 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll Agree

He looks bad out there… but I’m not convineced yet.

Aaron Rowand looks like a Hack, too….

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sadly, Rajai seems to be on the Herb Washington career track right about now…

2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.

by EliminateMe on Apr 17, 2008 10:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he fit in nicely last year in a platoon with Dave Roberts, but with Roberts gone and Fred Lewis being a far superior player, there is really no need for Davis. If he was a lefty he would be gone already, but with the Giants’ having so many lefty hitting outfielders, with yet another one on the way in Nate Schierholtz, they have decided to keep him around a little longer. I think when Rowand’s ribs heal and he doesn’t need anymore days off, they will attempt to send Rajai back down to the minors, even at the risk of losing him on waivers.

Brian Sabean's new dad: Firm believer in corporal punishment

by rxmeister on Apr 18, 2008 5:43 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You’re probably right. I just wish they’d DL Rowand and get him all healed up.

I have been a little disappointed with Davis’ defense this season. He looked so good last year, but he seems about 1/2 a step off this year. I keep thinking of the fly ball he turned into a double against the Brewers. He didn’t seem to do that last year.

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rajai’s defense looks off to me too. Obviously, he needs to be a first-rate outfielder to be worth bothering with.

by Evan on Apr 18, 2008 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Without Winn, Vizquel

LF Lewis (has to play everyday)
2B Velez (has to play everyday)
CF Rowand/Davis
C Molina (ditto previous posts—catchers aren’t just about offense, with Molina doesn’t neccarsilly lack compared to the average ML catcher, but with developing a pitching staff)
RF Bowker/Schieroltz (give Nate a chance)
1B Ortmeir (I still remember the joy from his walk-off double earlier this season)
3B Castillo?....hmm, yeah, any blocked 3B would work here (Andy Marte? Although there’s probably not a player who’s played worse during his time in the majors)
SS Bocock

by sedashoon on Apr 16, 2008 9:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

re: Molina

Nothing against Bengie personally, but wouldn’t you expect a natural decline in his performance over the next couple of years? Catchers and ingenues don’t age well, usually.

I’d be very happy to trade Bengie for a young 3B prospect; but I’m not looking to just give him away.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Apr 17, 2008 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You would

have to find another catcher, though. Holm is the best of the bunch, and he’s just not a MLB starter. I’d rather throw Dinker out there to see how he fares than start on of the Holm/Alfonzo/Rodriguez monster. That scares me.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 7:52 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Shades of Sadek, Tamargo & Littlejohn.

" Their still Shitty" - Major Leagues the movie.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain. Currently enjoying it more then usual.

by daveinexile on Apr 17, 2008 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Andy Marte

winner for the biggest bust (non Matt Bush division)?

by tyrannoman on Apr 18, 2008 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don’t want Velez leading off. Trust me. The numbers do not lie.

Proud adoptive parent of Tim Alderson.

by Anticon23 on Apr 16, 2008 10:49 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

But he has teh SPEED!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 17, 2008 12:32 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was pretty happy with today’s lineup (other than Aurilia). If they keep that going, I’ll be satisfied.

SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear

by Natto on Apr 16, 2008 11:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

You're looking to play the right guys...

Others are right that Velez should not be leading off. his OBP will NEVER justify that, no matter howmuch his speed fits into a traditional mold. Having him near the top of the lineup at all might actually be a mistake, but he’s more tolerable batting second than first.

I swear to God I had two other salient points to make, but it’s 12:35 and my brain turned off sometime between when I started writing my first salient point and now. They’re “whoosh” completely gone now.

So, to close, I think Benji must be the new Rowland/Lowrie/Aurelia/Alfonsz0/Visquel/Lincicum.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 17, 2008 12:38 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I blame the dog.

SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear

by Natto on Apr 17, 2008 12:46 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do Not Forget

That the catcher has a significant influence on how well the pitcher performs. Everything from how well he sell’s pitches to what pitches he calls.

There is one common demonimator in all of our young pitching’s success, and he wears #1.

I wouldn’t be so quick to get rid of him… We might REALLY regret it.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 7:01 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

It's no accident

That Bengie’s only day off is when Zito pitches. Supposedly, as a veteran, he is supposed to be able to handle his own pitch selection etc.

The young guys have electric stuff – but the typical problem with youth is knowing when and how to use it. That’s where having a catcher who knows how to get guys out is HUGE.

Eugeniooooooo!!!!

by FairweatherFan on Apr 17, 2008 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

There is one common denominator in all of our young pitching’s success, and he wears #1.

Molina has always struck as a mediocre game-caller at best. And anyway, a catcher doesn’t have that much effect on his pitchers’ performance. I would say that the common denominator in our young pitchers’ success is that they are all good pitchers.

You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Apr 17, 2008 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs

Pitchers do have to have talent, but I do think a catcher has a lot to do with how well pitchers perform. Good catchers notice when pitchers fall into a predicable rhythm with pitch selection, and can even sometimes have a better idea about how a pitches are moving that day than the pitcher.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 7:55 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs