Zito Mechanics Analysis

by sam urai on Apr 11, 2008 2:58 PM PDT Comment 29 comments

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/a-bridge-too-far/

Paul Nyman inaugurates a multi-part epic about Barry Zito's mechanics, possibly explaining his steep drop in velocity and effectiveness. This has the potential to become the pitching equivalent to that Ted Williams / Don Mattingly / Wade Boggs conversation about hitting mechanics that E posted a couple of months ago. Keep in mind, however, that this is merely a loooooooong introduction, and the actual analysis will probably come within the next couple of weeks.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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ZZZZZZZito

Let's just say I hope the rest of the series is a lot better than this 5 page snoozer.

by KCE on Apr 11, 2008 3:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Interesting he uses "A Bridge Too Far" as an analogy for Zito's mechanics, because World War II was actually shorter than this intro.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Apr 11, 2008 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, those dizzying videos of Zito circa 89mph and circa 84mph... I can't see a difference.

But the premise of the articles sounds interesting. I look forward to reading them.

Go Fred Lewis... You're better than the alternative... Yippee...

by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Apr 11, 2008 4:02 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

I can't see a difference either.

But I look forward to seeing where this article goes.

by withclubsauce on Apr 11, 2008 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know much about biomechanics

But I can see a few minor differences. The most visible one is Zito's head, which is more first-baseward during the first two thirds of his wind-up in the left clip. I also see a small difference in where his left shoulder is (slightly - SLIGHTLY - farther back at the beginning of his wind-up in the left clip). He also finished a little harder in the left clip (his shoulder falls a little more in his follow through).

What any of that means, if I'm even actually seeing what I think I'm seeing and not just making it up because I'm trying to see something, is lost on me. But you can look for it if you want. There is DEFINITELY a visible difference in the orientation of his head, though. Definitely that much.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 7:54 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know much about biomechanics either, but ...

That is an interesting bit on the shoulder. Considering the left clip is Zito at 84, it's odd that his shoulder would start farther back and end farther forward because that would indicate that he is using more body, but getting less speed.

by withclubsauce on Apr 11, 2008 10:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

While I'm picking nits on his motion, too

I just noticed that his kick leg appears to travel in a wider arc in the left picture, which - I think - rather than resulting in a longer stride would actually result in using more motion to get the same length on the stride. Here I once again defer to my "not knowing anything about biomechanics," though. My analysis of the "supposed" difference could be WAY off.

You can see it if you look at his right thigh. When the knee straightens up as his leg begins to move forward, note the height of the thigh.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah...

The longer stride does explain why he starts farther back but ends farther forward.

Maybe then the decline in speed is due to using less arm. Since he uses a longer stride to get more body motion into the pitch, he may use less arm as a result. And (this may be pulling at strings) he may be using less arm to increase his "longevity".

by withclubsauce on Apr 12, 2008 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good chatch on the head...

...but I think there's a simple explanation. If you check the bottom right corner of the left clip, a batting helmet bobs out of the picture. There's no mechanical difference, Zito's just holding the runner.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Apr 11, 2008 11:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice call!

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I look forward

to seeing Zito going. As in away.

Aaron "Swag" Rowand

by victor frankenstein on Apr 17, 2008 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Try looking and don't be ignorant

Take a look at his hand in each clip. He releases much higher in his hand now than he used to. Looks like he used more of his hand back when he was throwing harder. At this point all of you who bitch about Zito shouldn't be squawking to loud if you are too lazy to even attempt to read why he turned into our 5th starter AND opening day starter. This is a good analysis of a very complex issue. Suck it Trabek.

I'm not so sure about this new layout.......

by elGuapo on Apr 11, 2008 11:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

To be fair

The clips are really damn similar, and it's pretty difficult for the untrained eye to look comparatively (or is that contrastingly?) at both at the same time. It took me probably 5 careful minutes of looking to see the small amount that I did, and even then I didn't notice the difference in release at all (and I'm still not even sure I see it).

It's not ignorance, it's just really difficult if you don't know either what to look for or how to look for it.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 11:32 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was hoping the 5 minutes I talked about

Would sound like a long time, but it doesn't really. But five full, careful minutes of repeatedly scouring these three second clips sure seemed like a long time to me.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, it is a long time. I was so busy looking at his mechanics, I didn’t notice the runner either. His arm slot look a little higher to me now, as well, but I’m not sure the camera angle is exactly the same, and that would be important as well.

by tyrannoman on Apr 17, 2008 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not completely sure...

but I don't think you're supposed to see that much difference. The whole article is based on the premise that Zito's whole approach to pitching mechanics is wrong and has been wrong his entire life. The line "Zito doesn't know how to throw the baseball. Never really did and probably never will. He's a fantastic pitcher who really doesn't know how to throw efficiently." gives me that view. Either that or any adjustments he has tried to make have been the wrong approach to creating more velocity.

And he also compares Zito to Steve Avery:

"I see an analogy between what happened to Avery and Zito—early success followed by performance decline, most notably a loss of their fastball with no real explanation."

I would look more closely at the Zito/Santana comparisons and see what differences you can see there. He says Zito "pushes the baseball. Zito doesn't know how to throw the baseball" and that he has never known how to efficiently throw. Santana uses his body much more efficiently than Zito does.

www.baseball-intellect.com

by NovaO on Apr 11, 2008 11:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you're saying some good things

Those were moments in the introduction that struck me as particularly significant as well. I think it is important to keep in mind that Zito is still using the same mechanice he used to be using, so they SHOULD be very similar. The tiny differences I notice above could have as little basis as just a slight difference in the camera angle, they are so small (or, I hope, they could all be legit and I'm a total genius!).

I've been trying to think of a way to make sense of how a pitcher who "pushes" can lose speed over time despite "pushing" the same way as before, while the same would be less likely to happen in a guy who "throws" and over time keeps "throwing" the same way... but I can't get my head quite around the significant distinction between "pushing" and "throwing" to begin with... so I haven't been able logic it out in any meaningful way. I mean... regardless of whether a guy "pushes" or "throws," the same motions should create the same results as long the body itself hasn't fallen into decline, right?

It's because of that very last sentence that I think there has to be some mechanical or bodily basis, and why I was looking for even the smallest differences above. Because if it's not mechanical, than it's probably actual physical decline, and that's a scary thought for a guy the small side of 30 who we'll have for 6 more years.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 12, 2008 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a biomechanical genius either...

..but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express two weeks ago. (rimshot) Garrett, I wonder if the "pushing" vs. "throwing" has anything to do with how Barry holds the ball in his hand? "Pushing" sounds like throwing a palmball. Or maybe he doesn't whip his arm like he should.

Another thought: when I was watching my daughter's softball team practice years ago, I kept thinking of the phrase "throws like a girl." My daughter certainly did, but a couple of the players threw more like boys. That style of throwing, I've read, is based on the fact that women's arms (usually) are attached differently to their shoulders than men's arms are. If I remember correctly, men's arms are more vertically attached, and women's more roundly(?) attached. I don't think I explained that well, but what I'm getting at is that maybe Zito's arm is attached to his shoulder in a less-optimal way than most guys. If so, then it's very impressive what he was able to accomplish when he was younger.

Have you read about Texas prospect R.A. Dickey? He was on the cover of Baseball America with 6 or 7 other top college pitchers, just before the draft one year - all of them standing in a row, baseballs in hand. It was obvious that Dickey's arm hung at a different angle than the other guys; an orthopedist noticed it as well, and contacted the team that drafted Dickey. They checked him out thoroughly (after drafting him) and discovered a physical anomaly in his arm. He has bounced around the minors ever since. Maybe Zito has something similar to that going on.

Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!

by Lyle on Apr 12, 2008 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pushing v. Throwing - educated guessing

When the author of this talks about “pushing” versus “throwing,” it sounded like the common criticism of “aiming” your throws rather than letting loose. I guess that’s still pretty vague, but in my mind I picture the difference between aiming a dart with the intent of hitting a very small point, versus trying to bury the dart up to the hilt in the dartboard.

In terms of release point, it might mean that you are keeping the baseball inside the hand until the last moment and then just letting go somewhat flatly, as you would a dart you were aiming, not generating a lot of spin. I remember an article long ago on Pedro Martinez’ mechanics, and one of the interesting characteristics that he had (when he had better velocity) was that he kept his two top fingers on his fastball all the way through the delivery, exerting minute pressure as the ball rolled off his fingertips, and that this developed a ton of backspin.

This would make a difference in hand position on that video potentially pretty significant, everything else being equal.

"Attaway to stomp 'em. Stomp the piss out of 'em. Stomp 'em when they're down. Kick 'em and stomp 'em. Attaway to go boys. Pound that old Budweiser into you and go get them tomorrow." -- Joe Schultz

by taiko on Apr 17, 2008 7:26 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the dart analogy

Is really helping me to visualize this a little better. Obviously, pushing a baseball is nothing like a pushing a dart, but I think the primary distinction between pushing and throwing is fairly similar for both.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 17, 2008 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ah...now I see the problem with linking to articles in a gameday thread, and then scheduling the gameday thread for 6:00.

I got scooped!

by Grant on Apr 11, 2008 4:15 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

So let me get this straight?

Zito might not be the authority on his own mechanics? He might, in fact, have the wrong idea about what made him effective and how to regain that effectivity through current mechanical changes?

Gee, I never would have thought of or suggested that multiple times over the last year and a half.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 4:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

BTW

I'm very interested in where this article goes, and I'd love to be alerted whenever more of it comes out.

Thanks to you and Grant (though the latter later) for the tip.

My Dave Righetti is better than your Dave Righetti.

by howtheyscored on Apr 11, 2008 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Go Fred Lewis... You're better than the alternative... Yippee...

by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Apr 11, 2008 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, Carlos Gomez (aka ChadBradfordWannabe, he of the excellent pitching mechanics breakdowns of Lincecum et al) says that Nyman is the real deal. That's good enough for me. I'm just wondering how tempting it mut be to include the phrase "wheelbarrow filled with suck" somewhere in the analysis.

That being said, kick some friggin' ass tonight, Barry Z.

No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball

by Skaldheim on Apr 11, 2008 5:24 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs

Zito should take steroids like Clemens and Bonds

At least you guys would be getting your moneys worth for him

by Athletic on Apr 18, 2008 7:30 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs

...And McGwire, Giambi, Piatt, Tejada, and the Godfather of steroids, Canseco?

Oakland, California: The Steroid Era Began Here, But Everyone Else Is Guilty As Sin.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Apr 18, 2008 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

Zito on PEDs is a win/win/win

1) he might actually pitch well
2) if not, he might actually hurt himself, and we wouldn’t have to watch him
3) He might get in SOOO much trouble, that we can void his contract!

FIRE BRIAN SABEAN

by zenbitz on Apr 18, 2008 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs