Tales from the Upper Lip
by Grant
on Apr 10, 2008 11:47 AM PDT
It's an extended winning streak! Unexpected as it may be, this streak is the longest of the young season. It will probably remain the longest streak of the season for quite some time. Probably for the entire season, actually. But that's not the kind of talk that's appropriate after two walk-off victories. Seize the moment, and all that. So today's more about singing the praises of a player whom I've been a little to quick to dismiss. For example....
Jonathan Sanchez
Oh. I get it now. It's not that the guy didn't have talent, it's just that he didn't have the reliable second (or third) pitch needed to be a starter. He had a good short-arm fastball, but not a great one, which probably made his ceiling a good-not-great reliever.
...But, yeah. I get it now. Just because a fastball isn't 97-mph, doesn't mean it can't be great, and that second pitch is now officially dirty (or filthy, depending on what part of the country you're in). I'd still trade him for a power-hitting, pre-arbitration corner infielder, but last night left me giddy about Sanchez for the first time since he was a double-A prospect. He has a swing-through fastball and a slider that can break down both lefties and righties, and all that stands between those two things and world domination is spotty control.
First reaction: zomgrandyjohnson!
Rebuttal to first reaction: Mike Remlinger
Addendum to the rebuttal: Hell, Remlinger had a good career as far as pitchers go. Most pitchers -- even those with electric stuff -- fizzle out.
Rebuttal to the rebuttal of the rebutted reaction: It's obviously idiotic to equate Jonathan Sanchez with a future inner-circle Hall-of-Famer. But I can't help it. I think of a devastating slider/fastball combination from the left side, and I think of one pitcher. It's the best template we have.
Sanchez isn't going to be one of the greatest pitchers in history, but I'm on board for his potential to snugly fit somewhere between Caincecum in a future rotation. Not as a number three or a number five, but as an equal partner in a hydra of rotational doom. I'm sorry I ever doubted that potential. I repent! I repent!
I, for one, welcome our new 27th-round overlord.
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Primero!
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark
by MeSoKrabby on Apr 10, 2008 11:51 AM PDT 0 recs
Hydra of rotational doom...
...now there's a phrase that calls for a Natto picture if ever I heard one!
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on Apr 10, 2008 11:54 AM PDT 1 recs
Tammm - beee - ennn...
So if we win 60 games...what's our run total going to be , 240?
I like the wins but this offensive vacuum is sca - ree , baby.
Aaron "Swag" Rowand
by victor frankenstein on Apr 10, 2008 11:55 AM PDT 0 recs
I've always been a Sanchez fan
And I was happy to see him do so well last night. What I thought was interesting was that he mostly had all of his success on one pitch, his fastball.
He threw his fastball 77 times out of the 102 pitches he made, thats a % of 75.49%
His control, often a problem for him, was good too with just 2 walks. I also thought he was getting squeezed a lot, especially on the outside corner to RHB's, he had several close pitches that the ump just wouldn't give him.
I'll pop a question for the McC:
Once Lowry comes back who would you chose for the 5th starter between Correia and Sanchez, if you had to chose?
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on Apr 10, 2008 11:55 AM PDT 0 recs
Someone asked a similar question yesterday...
My answer is still the same. Correia goes to the pen. Lowry starts until his value goes up/gets hurt again. One of the three(Correia, Sanchez, Lowry) is traded before the deadline.
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark
by MeSoKrabby on
Apr 10, 2008 12:00 PM PDT
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Someone asked a similar question yesterday...
That was probably me ^_^
I like your scenario.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on
Apr 10, 2008 12:03 PM PDT
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Most encouraging signs:
Sanchez had the majority of his K's (6) the second time through the Fathers' lineup.
Also, he didn't lose focus after Rowand's error. In previous starts he might have gotten frustrated with that and the umpire's strike zone and get really wild, give up a long bomb, and so on. Never flinched last night.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on
Apr 10, 2008 12:15 PM PDT
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We might have seen a boy grow into man during that inning. I have questioned his mental approach before and last night was a very pleasant surprise to see him "man-up".
by wilriv21 on
Apr 10, 2008 12:28 PM PDT
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Mentality and control
Those were the only two obstacles to Sanchez having success. Hopefully he's hurdled both of them for good...
Only 964 games until the end of Zito's contract
by thehavenot on
Apr 10, 2008 3:38 PM PDT
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Sanchez..
Although I'd hope for someone to be traded for a bat. Correia hopefully, but I'd trade Sanchez for a bat as well like Grant said. Or if we could trade Lowry for anything I'd do that, especially if he shows some promise in rehab starts/first few starts of the year.l
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
Apr 10, 2008 12:18 PM PDT
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Correia stays has #5 starter
Sanchez gets regular starter work in Fresno. Then proceed to see if Lowry &/or Corriea can post good numbers tell Independence Day. Then open up the bidding window. You figure with maybe 6 teams defiantly being in the seller category ( yes, we are one) not many of them will have young arms under team control with any kind of a track record they are willing to part with. There should be some interesting offers.
Along the same track keep working Hennessy. If he does not implode all the time he too could actually net the team a talent gain in a position spot.
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain.
by daveinexile on
Apr 11, 2008 12:25 PM PDT
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I'll let you know....
if Sanchez is anything like the Unit. Scored some primo seats between the plate and 1st base to watch their showdown next Monday night. Yes!
by BigO on Apr 10, 2008 12:04 PM PDT 0 recs
The Big Unit vs. Dirty Sanchez?
Bocock will be there. And so will Captain Commando, Eric Byrnes. It will really be a "lettin' it all hang out" kind of night.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on
Apr 10, 2008 3:01 PM PDT
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What???
A Randy Johnson reference with no "Ugly: Randy Johnson" joke? Talk about spotty control. Someone get Natto up and warming in the pen, stat.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
by Kitspool on Apr 10, 2008 12:07 PM PDT 0 recs
Why do we wish to admit to seeing an others ugly Johnson?
I am a Giants fan. Thus I enjoy my pain.
by daveinexile on
Apr 11, 2008 12:29 PM PDT
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BTW, is that Natto, the crazed fan in orange, with the ball glove, that the TV guys have been focusing on the past 2 nights?
by allfrank on Apr 10, 2008 12:11 PM PDT 0 recs
That's not Natto.
You can usually spot him because he wars a blazing orange Merkin to the park.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
Apr 10, 2008 12:19 PM PDT
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No way
I only have two pins on my hat.
SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear
by Natto on
Apr 10, 2008 1:39 PM PDT
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But how many pins...
...do you have on your merkin?
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 10, 2008 2:37 PM PDT
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A gamer...
has at least 15 pieces of flair on his merkin.
by mxmob33 on
Apr 10, 2008 2:40 PM PDT
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Sorry
That's only known to me and the entire country of Luxembourg.
SAVE_US.RAY
Get yer Nattowear
by Natto on
Apr 10, 2008 3:24 PM PDT
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Oh fine...
...you'll tell all five of them, but you won't tell us?
It's not even a real country anyway. Wikipedia says it's a "grand duchy" but I think it's a fair-to-middling duchy at best.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 10, 2008 3:59 PM PDT
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EliminateMe, I couldn't agree with you more.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 10, 2008 4:58 PM PDT
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Yea.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
Apr 10, 2008 7:56 PM PDT
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You jerk.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 11, 2008 11:18 AM PDT
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No.
DAMN. Screwed it up.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 11, 2008 11:28 AM PDT
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BTW, is that Natto, the crazed fan in orange, with the ball glove, that the TV guys have been focusing on the past 2 nights?
by allfrank on Apr 10, 2008 12:11 PM PDT 0 recs
Not Natto
You can spot Natto by his custom made blazing orange Merkin that he wears to the park.
http://www.baycityball.com
by xanthan on
Apr 10, 2008 12:15 PM PDT
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No way
Natto only has two pins on his hat.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 10, 2008 1:55 PM PDT
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But how many pins...
...does he have on his merkin?
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 10, 2008 2:33 PM PDT
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A gamer...
has at least 15 pieces of flair on his merkin.
by mxmob33 on
Apr 10, 2008 2:40 PM PDT
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Sorry
That's only known to Natto and the entire country of Luxembourg.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 10, 2008 3:31 PM PDT
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Oh fine...
...he'll tell all five of them, but he won't tell us?
It's not even a real country anyway. Wikipedia says it's a "grand duchy" but I think it's a fair-to-middling duchy at best.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 10, 2008 4:21 PM PDT
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groug, I couldn't agree with you more.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 10, 2008 4:38 PM PDT
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No.
DAMN. Screwed it up.
The Basil Fawlty Moderating Strategy:
"We could run a nice blog here if we didn't have all these members getting in the way."
by WalrusMan on
Apr 10, 2008 7:56 PM PDT
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You jerk.
If you like things that are funny, perhaps you will enjoy ChatterBalks Dot Com?
by groug on
Apr 10, 2008 10:27 PM PDT
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Grant, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
All kidding aside, just glad to see wins in a row as opposed to losses in a row.
by m3lkor on Apr 10, 2008 12:31 PM PDT 0 recs
Jonathan Sanchez
SF rushed him through the minors. Hopefully he is now ready for his close-up. He is one of the pitchers you can build a pitching staff around - a very solid #2 candidate in a rotation. He is a young LHP with three soild pitches (FB, change and slider) who can develop with this young team. While I do not believe in any player being untouchable I would prefer SF not trade him.
by wilriv21 on Apr 10, 2008 12:37 PM PDT 0 recs
But you CAN'T have 3 untouchable starting pitchers
When your offense is this anemic! Sanchez has to be the odd man out, much as I would HATE to see him go. I mean, 18 K's in 10 IP. FTW!!??!! Argh. The good news is that our system seems to be good at spitting out incredible pitchers.
¿Julio is tourist in San Francisco? Harper's Bizarre!
by hairball on
Apr 10, 2008 3:03 PM PDT
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Why does Sanchez have to be the odd man out? If, by mid-season, he's pitching at Lincecanium levels, why does he have to go. If, for instance, the organization has him rated as highly as Tim/Matt, but one of those guys brings back a bigger bounty, Sabean should do what's best for the team.
Whatever the case,
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
Apr 10, 2008 3:55 PM PDT
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Big Three
If possible SF should hold on to all three if they are as good as advertised. They are inexpensive, young, talented and healthy. Let them pitch and develop. In the future they could possibly open a playoff series with the likes of Lincecum, Sanchez and Cain - now that could be very impressive. In the recent series vs Padres the Giants started Cain, Lincecum and Sanchez and won two.
by wilriv21 on
Apr 10, 2008 4:09 PM PDT
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Well
The Giants NEED to get some young position players. Lowry, et. al have established major league results and the farm system has pitchers that could "replace" anyone who might be traded(Alderson, Bumgarner, etc.). Frankly, I'd ratehr trade one of the three and wait to see how the minor league pitchers develop. It's not like we're going to the World Series any time soon. Prove me wrong Giants! Prove me wrong, I beg you.
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark
by MeSoKrabby on
Apr 10, 2008 4:22 PM PDT
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Lowry, has an established
major league record of badly declining peripherals.
If you can't build a competitive team while Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez are here, you might as well sack the GM and contract the team. A GM that bad and a team managed that way will likely screw up Alderson etc.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
Apr 11, 2008 1:26 AM PDT
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"Win streak" gets us to 3-6
So, we are on pace for a 54-108 season??? Su-weet!
by otis29 on Apr 10, 2008 12:53 PM PDT 0 recs
...but with a win tonight we will be on pace for 65 wins!
by paboperfecto on
Apr 10, 2008 12:55 PM PDT
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54 wins
nets me some nice scratch from a cubs fan that thinks they will lose 110+
by m3lkor on
Apr 10, 2008 1:02 PM PDT
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The pace report
Giants are also on pace for:
360 runs
72 homers
18 homers by anyone not named Molina
36 walk-off wins
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 10, 2008 1:40 PM PDT
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72 - 18
Does that mean Molina's going to jack 54? Nice!
(I would belive more like 18 from molina and 18 from everyone else)
Eugeniooooooo!!!!
by FairweatherFan on
Apr 10, 2008 1:42 PM PDT
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I say he grows to the cleanup position and sets a career best with 22-25.
by paboperfecto on
Apr 10, 2008 1:43 PM PDT
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He's on pace for it, so yes...
...it's pretty much guaranteed. Just like Bonds hitting 324 HRs in 2002.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 10, 2008 1:53 PM PDT
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That was awesome when he did that! I miss that guy....
by paboperfecto on
Apr 10, 2008 1:58 PM PDT
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I was over on the Cardinals blog and one of the fanposts suggested a trade where we get a first baseman and they get Sanchez/Velez. It was interesting because half the comments seemed to think we would be crazy to accept the trade and the other half that they would be crazy to offer the trade. I don't follow many other teams/players, but was wondering who this Duncan guy is and is he that much better than Aurilia/Ort where we could give up some pitching and speed for him.
by paboperfecto on Apr 10, 2008 1:04 PM PDT 0 recs
Chris Duncan is the son of Cardinals pitching coach Dave Duncan. Hits around 20 HR a year. Rather overrated IMO, for a first round pick. Nepotism?
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Apr 10, 2008 1:52 PM PDT
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In his defense, his 20 HR a year have come in under 400 ABs (21 in 375 last season, 22 in 280 in 2006). I think he could be a 35-40 guy in a full-time role. However, he probably won't hit more than .270 and he's going to strike out a lot.
Adam Dunn comparable, maybe?
by sfgiantsflgators on
Apr 10, 2008 1:59 PM PDT
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Considering I'm also rather meh on Dunn, I'd call it about even. Dunn has great power but good god, the strikeouts.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Apr 10, 2008 2:10 PM PDT
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I'm not positive, but doesn't Duncan have problems hitting lefties?
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark
by MeSoKrabby on
Apr 10, 2008 2:17 PM PDT
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From Baseball Reference, Duncan bats 85 points higher v. RHP(.288 - .203) and 40 HR against RHP v. 4 against LHP.
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark
by MeSoKrabby on
Apr 10, 2008 2:21 PM PDT
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For some reason I couldn't find his minor league splits on minorleaguesplits.com and I don't have the patience to dig for it at the moment. However in his major league career he hits RHP better, though 49 AB against LHP to 241 AB against RHP means something. He just doesn't play against LHP. Is it because he hits them poorly? Perhaps we'll learn this weekend.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Apr 10, 2008 2:23 PM PDT
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Interestingly
Chris Duncan struggled at triple-A. He was easily fooled by righties and lefties, and was hitting maybe .240 for most of the year before he was called up. Those of us who saw him that year were shocked at his ML success. He is, without doubt, a 1B only; so he would be the anti-Ortmeier.
That said, I would trade Velez for Duncan straight up, of course. Or I'd throw in a reliever. Or certainly Noah Lowry and Velez for Duncan. But not much more than that.
Your 2011 SF Giants: the 2008 Augusta Greenjackets!
by Lyle on
Apr 10, 2008 3:45 PM PDT
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There's no way Duncan is a Dunn
I'm no Dunn fan, not because of the Ks, which are more than balanced by the walks and power, but more because of his D.
Nonetheless, likening Chris Duncan to Adam Dunn, is like likening Juan Pierre to Ichiro, Maury Wills to Rickey Henderson, Vince Coleman to Tim Raines.
Chris Duncan is only one year younger than Dunn, Dunn has accumulated 239 HRs in 4135 PAs. Duncan 44 HRs in 775 PAs. Nor did Duncan kill the minors. His minor league OPS is 752. In his 2 season in AAA, he was only slightly above league average.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
Apr 10, 2008 2:26 PM PDT
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Wasn't meant to be a strict comparison
Dunn had a much better minor league career - .950 OPS over ~4 seasons compared to Duncan's .755 OPS over 6+ seasons.
While Duncan's major league career is still very much in the air, his early returns are fairly similar to Dunn. Duncan's OPS in 2+ seasons of work is .884 to Dunn's .900, while he averages a home run in every 15.1 ABs to Dunn's 14.1 HR/AB ratio.
(I did the math quickly, so I hope it's accurate; it's at least ballpark) :D
Unfortunately, Duncan also has Dunn's ability to strikeout at alarming rates while playing horrendous defense.
They aren't exactly alike, but it's not that far a stretch IMO. But obviously it'll take a few years of consistant play to bring Duncan to a Dunn-type level.
by sfgiantsflgators on
Apr 10, 2008 5:33 PM PDT
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Your last sentence is the key
"But obviously it'll take a few years of consistant play to bring Duncan to a Dunn-type level."
Duncan is already 27. In a few years time, say 2-3 years, the guy is already 29-30, with his decline imminent.
Because Duncan has played so little in the majors, he career rate stats like OPS are jacked up by his season in 2006, which was WAY out of line from the rest of his career.
His minor league career offensive numbers are mediocre, especially for someone with poor D. For the most part, at every level, he's only been slightly above the league average. That's poor for a corner player with horrible D.
I'm not saying that Duncan is not a useful player. He's basically a poor man's Adam Dunn.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on
Apr 11, 2008 1:37 AM PDT
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Dude can mash
I've had thoughts of this trade as well, but I think the 'Birds would want more than a Correia or Lowry-type. Both because he's Pujols main backup...and his dad's the pitching coach. Couple of big reasons for them to be stingy about trading him.
He has power, but I don't know how he'd do in our park. I can't decide if it'd be worth Sanchez + piece(s), which is what I think it'd take.
by sfgiantsflgators on
Apr 10, 2008 1:52 PM PDT
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In honor of Sanchez' performance last night, I shaved my mustache and kept the rest of the goatee, just like he does.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on Apr 10, 2008 1:34 PM PDT 0 recs
In honor of Sanchez' performance...
...he's going to draw the mustache back on instead.
With what, you don't want to know.
2008: My previous assessment may have been overly optimistic.
by EliminateMe on
Apr 10, 2008 1:54 PM PDT
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I was gonna say...
It's ironic that Jonaothan's facial hair pattern is the opposite of a dirty sanchez.
2008 Giants: A steaming pile of scrap!
by Goofus on
Apr 10, 2008 3:18 PM PDT
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Brian Wilson's soul patch looks like a mini-merkin. Bad.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on
Apr 10, 2008 1:57 PM PDT
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Oliver Perez is a left hander
with a fastball / slider combo too.
He also struggles with command, control, consistency, occasionally.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
by rfloh on Apr 10, 2008 1:44 PM PDT 0 recs
i like the comparison.. id take it if sanchez becomes as good as perez
by Azmanz on
Apr 10, 2008 1:58 PM PDT
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+ 1/2
They strike me as quite similar, down to the inconsistency and injury histories. Perez was better younger younger, though.
I liked Sanchez a lot even before last year, given those gaudy K rates, but my hopes were always tempered by the icky icky walks and the low IP totals stemming from soreness and minor injury.
by wcw on
Apr 10, 2008 4:55 PM PDT
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Sanchez very quietly put up a great K/BB ratio last year. He's had a lot of success with his stuff in the minors, too. I think his problem was largely how he has been mishandled: yo-yo'd between AAA and the bigs, going from mop up reliever to spot-starter. The Giants have absolutely nothing to lose by sticking him out in the rotation all year. If we're "playing the kids", he needs a long, consistent chance because he could develop very well.
by MidKnight on Apr 10, 2008 1:58 PM PDT 0 recs
My steady refrain
I've never doubted Sanchez's stuff, and his performance last night doesn't surprise me in the least, but I just can't get excited about him until he pitches half a season without missing time to either soreness or amputation.
One of the two. He's been plagued by both in his short career.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Apr 10, 2008 1:58 PM PDT 0 recs