White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

sabean is gun shy

guess that is a good thing

getting crede doesnt mean anything unless he can be signed long term anyway

by bacci40 on Mar 6, 2008 1:00 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Mar 6, 2008 1:28 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Brilliant

Natto, please make this a regular feature for as long as Sabean's around.

(And what the heck are you and bacci doing awake at that hour?)

Noonan. Nooooonan!

by Giant Fan in Singapore on Mar 6, 2008 1:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

By my count it'd only be 11:30 west coast time.

If the timings on the posts are actually right to the time now, I know before they weren't.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Mar 6, 2008 8:07 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: By my count...

It was actually 1:30. I was up plotting world domination and conquest, y'know, the usual sort of thing.

Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Mar 6, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: By my count...

Yup, the same thing you do every night, Pinky.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Mar 6, 2008 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Brilliant

"for as long as Sabean is around." Natto should keep doing this even longer, since we really don't want Sabean around for another minute.

Randy Messenger's biggest fan, although I will drop him like a hot potato when we get Joe Crede

by rxmeister on Mar 6, 2008 6:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I actually think 4 whole magic beans is a steep price to pay for Joe Crede. Maybe 3 magic + 1 cursed bean?

by zenbitz on Mar 6, 2008 9:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Natto's comic strip

This is terrific work, Natto! Please make this a regular feature on MCC. Oh, and please be sure to tell Grant that, whatever he's paying you now, he needs to double it!

"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Mar 6, 2008 11:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Pretty obvious that we can't (shouldn't?) trade Sanchez anymore with Lowry the way he is.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Mar 6, 2008 4:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I have a feeling Sanchez will end up being the player that a year from now...heck, six months from now, we'll wish we could have traded for a few cans of tomato soup. The guy screams "potential never realized" to me. Every time he gets into a situation where he needs to pitch, he instead throws. He has a ton of heat in his arm, but nibbles the corners until he has to pipe it.

by shawngf on Mar 6, 2008 7:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

It doesn't help to have an undefined role, because it never allows for him to settle in.

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Mar 6, 2008 7:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Sanchez realizing his potential has a lot to do with coaching. Keep Sanchez and get someone to replace the ass-scratcher who sits next to Bochy.

All you guys talk about is the baseball boogie and Angel Villalona.

by Woody Wins on Mar 6, 2008 8:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

On behalf of ass-scratchers everywhere, I'm offended.

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Mar 6, 2008 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

And on behalf of offenders everywhere, I'm scratching my ass

by E Ticket on Mar 7, 2008 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

It also doesn't help that he doesn't have a third pitch or that the two that he does throw can't be thrown consistently in the strike zone.

Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Mar 6, 2008 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

It also doesn't help that the number of full years he's been healthy significantly pales in comparison to the number of years he's battled injuries.

The guy is a surgery waiting to happen.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Mar 6, 2008 11:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Eventually, you have to earn it. He hasn't earned it in any spot.

As a starter, he's 1-4 with a 7.27 ERA. As a reliever, he's 3-2 with a 4.40 ERA. His strike out totals(95 in 92 innings) are nice and shiny, but the rest of his line ain't nearly that nice:

Hitters have this lovely line off of him: .269/.371/.409.

By comparison, here's the Giants collective line last season:

.254/.322/.387.

I'm not saying give up Sanchez, I'm just saying his time for excuses has come and gone. He needs to start putting up and thusfar in ST, he simply has not.

by shawngf on Mar 6, 2008 7:48 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

As a starter, he's amassed 34.2 innings. For his career. Like, as in total.

Saying that he has an ERA over 7 in just 30-some innings isn't going to convince me that he can't succeed in that role.

Fact - The Giants have bounced him -- and might I add, I think rather foolishly -- between roles more than any other prospect that I can recall in recent memory.

Fact - Sanchez has way more upside than any other current could-maybe-be rotation candidate. He's got tons more upside than either Correia or Misch.

Why has his time for excuses come and gone? The truth is that the Giants have done a horrible job in handling his role development. Is he a reliver? Is he a starter? OK, lets let him relieve again. Crap, let's make him start again. Hmm, let's send him to AAA and let him start. Wait, we need relievers on the big club! Quick, call him up and make him relieve!

The back-and-forth is nauseating. I'm a big Sanchez supporter but I think the Giants have hindered his development.

For a team that supposedly prides itself on pitcher development, they've dropped the ball on this one. The Lowry injury could be good for Sanchez, depending on the extent of Lowry's injury, Sanchez could get some time to start this year. He's way more qualified than Correia to start and I just wish the Giants would also realize that.

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 8:04 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

He's way more qualified than Correia to start and I just wish the Giants would also realize that.

I'm not arguing with you, I'm just wondering what makes you think Sanchez is more qualified?

All you guys talk about is the baseball boogie and Angel Villalona.

by Woody Wins on Mar 6, 2008 8:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

He's not.

He has more potential, but Kevin is WAY ahead as far as where he is right now.

by Viliphied on Mar 6, 2008 10:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Maybe qualified isn't the right word, but I think his talent is greater than Kevin's.

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 10:55 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Ok, I agree with that. Sanchez has better "stuff" and Correia is the better "pitcher", at least for now.

All you guys talk about is the baseball boogie and Angel Villalona.

by Woody Wins on Mar 6, 2008 12:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

+1. I completely agree with this post.

It's somewhat analogous to the way Frandsen started, like, four or five different positions last season during those rare times when he got to play. It's only when he got a long, sustained look at second base that he started to (relatively) blossom. Not saying Frandsen has this huge potential, but it certainly wasn't being realized the way Bochy threw him around the field.

Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.

by Kitspool on Mar 6, 2008 9:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I don't really buy into the excuse that moving a pitcher back in forth from the pen to the rotation hinders his development. A pitcher like Cain or Lincecum, I think we all agree, would excell in a reliever's role as much as in a starter's role even if they were asked to perform both duties. The cream rises to the top.

Unless Sanchez has some sort of mental flaw that prohibits him from being able to concentrate on pitching well unless given a specific task over a long period of time -- and I don't think any of us are qualified to assume that -- it's not good enough to say that he's been moved too much and that's why he can't throw strikes and maintain a consistent delivery.

I like Sanchez and would really enjoy seeing him with the opportunity to prove himself as a starter. He's an exciting pitcher to watch but I don't really think he's ready and its not because he doesn't have a defined role. It's because he has more to learn.

Also, why does Sanchez get a pass for being moved around the staff but not Correia? Correia has been bounced around just as much but when he got a string of starts last year, he did well.

As far as Frandsen, I think the same rule applies. To me, it has more to do with the player's talent than with their role on a team. To say that his success last year was due to his continual role as a second-baseman, I feel ignores the fact that he was getting more plate appearances at that time. It probably had little to do with the fact that he had the same defensive position every day and more to do with timing from repetition in the batter's box.

All you guys talk about is the baseball boogie and Angel Villalona.

by Woody Wins on Mar 6, 2008 9:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I kind of disagree with you...at least in reference to Frandsen.

When you have to learn a new position, it can take away a lot of your mental focus. And when you're failing at the new position, it can make you press to make up for it on the other side.

Knowing that you're capable and able in your position allows you to play calmer all around.

by shawngf on Mar 6, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I can't speak for anyone else, but I, at least, gave Correia a pass for being bounced around. Same with Hennessey. Yes, Correia finally started to show success last year. But they've also been given more innings in the majors than Sanchez has.

Correia: 288 ip
Hennessey: 320 ip
Sanchez: 92 ip

I don't necessarily think that putting a developing pitcher in the bullpen is a horrible thing. It's something that shouldn't be done if you can help it, though. And what has happened to Sanchez is just rediculous.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Mar 6, 2008 10:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bouncing

I agree with those who thinking the bouncing around is bad for development. When you're still concerned with just making the team, that's just one more distraction you don't need. I think older guys can handle it better - much like older guys make better pinch hitters. Younger guys are still looking to impress, are more likely to "try to do too much," and in so doing are more likely to go for the instant gratification (strikeouts for a pitcher, homeruns for a hitter) rather than concentrate on the basic, all-around skills that will help them develop.

"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Mar 6, 2008 11:12 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Bouncing

I can agree with that in a way. What I find most troubling is how the Giants seem to promote young hitters. Once you've proven yourself in AAA and shown that you have nowhere else to go but up to the parent club, you are given a nice shiny promotion to Giants bench player.

"Congrats son, you're our new 5th outfielder. Lucky you! And if you absolutely rake in the four at-bats you'll be receiving each week, we'll promote you to full-time starter in two short years."

Its rather sickening.

All you guys talk about is the baseball boogie and Angel Villalona.

by Woody Wins on Mar 6, 2008 1:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Bouncing

Yes, I agree with that completely. I absolutely hate it that the Giants make guys like Linden and Rios (regardless of what they ended up being) backup outfielders.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Mar 6, 2008 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

With the qualifier that I have a growing man-crush on Correia, I need convincing that Sanchez has more upside. Other than the fact that Sanchez is a southpaw, where's he better?

They both throw hard
Correia has shown more consistent control
Correia has more pitches
Correia has demonstrated more success at the MLB level

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Mar 6, 2008 10:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

>> They both throw hard

I'd say for a righty Corriea has average velocity. Sanchez throws harder, and from the left side. Above average velocity from a lefty. Point Sanchez.

>> Correia has shown more consistent control

I can't find minor league PA numbers for Correia and Sanchez, so I can't calculate their BB% in the minors (which I prefer to BB/9) but I can do BB/9 for both of them, majors and minors.

Correia BB/9
Majors (287 IP) - 3.79
Minors (306 IP) - 3.26

Sanchez BB/9
Majors (92 IP) - 4.99
Minors (252.2 IP) - 3.50

I don't think Sanchez is a 5 BB per 9 inning guy in the majors. His control has never been superb, but it's not like Correia is Greg Maddux either. Sanchez offsets his sometimes-not-so-great control with a superior K-rate. Since we're talking about control, I'll give the point to Correia but it's not one he's supremely better at than Sanchez.

>> Correia has more pitches

None of which rate as plus pitches. Sanchez has two plus pitches, a fastball and a really good changeup.

Furthermore, how many pitches does Correia have? I've always thought he had three. A FB, change, and slider. PITCHf/x data on Correia has him only throwing those three pitches. Is he throwing a curve I don't know about?

PITCHf/x has Sanchez throwing three pitches last year. A FB, Change, and a incorrectly labeled curveball which is his slider. Point Sanchez. He's got two pitches that grade as plus and to my knowledge throws as many pitches as Correia. None of Correia's offerings grade out above average.

>> Correia has demonstrated more success at the MLB level

I disagree with this, but I'd agree with you if you said that "Correia has been given more chances at the MLB level". He's thrown almost 3x the amount of innings that Sanchez has. I can't hold that against Sanchez that the Giants haven't given him fair shakes.

Correia's a decent bullpen option, but pitching from the bullpen is easier than starting. His career ERA of 4.03 is lowered to an extent by his time in the bullpen and would most likely get pushed to the mid-4's if he was starting.

Sanchez throws harder and has better pitch quality on two of his pitches. His minor league track record is stronger than Correia's too, for whatever reason, he just hasn't had the same chance that Correia has had in the majors to prove himself.

At the end of the day, Sanchez could be a mid rotation starter, while the best that Correia can hope for is to work the back of the rotation. How can you not see that he has more upside?

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 10:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

When you think about it, Sanchez is in almost exactly the same spot Correia was in two years ago. At the time, Correia was 25 and had 116 pretty bad major-league innings under his belt, doing a little starting and a little relieving. Then he got a regular role, improved his control, boosted his strikeout rate, and evolved into a solid pitcher.

by Evan on Mar 6, 2008 11:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

(I am going to call the stat "BB/9" "BB/9i to distinguish it from BB divided by 9)

Math fun:

PA = IP + BB + H (ignoring HBP)

BB% = BB/PA

BB = (BB/9i) * IP/9
H = (H/9i) * IP/9

PA = 3*IP(outs) + (BB/9i)*IP/9 + (H/9i)*IP/9

IP = 9*IP/9

9PA = 27*IP + (BB/9i)*IP + (H/9i)*IP

BB% = BB/PA = 9BB/9PA

BB% = (BB/9i)*IP / (27*IP + (BB/9i)*IP + (H/9i)*IP)

BB% = (BB/9i)/(27 + BB/9i + H/9i)

So you can get BB% from BB/9 and H/9.

by zenbitz on Mar 6, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Talk about degrees of separation. :)

by sharksrog on Mar 7, 2008 9:56 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I agree that Jonathan Sanchez has more upside then Kevin Correia. I also agree that Jonathan has more downside.

by sharksrog on Mar 7, 2008 10:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Agreed. Plus wich they ripped him out of any decent development curve to start the flip flopping to begin with. Remember Sanchez had only pitched about 20 innings above Low A ball when he was suddenly converted into a major league relief pitcher. This alone could explain the problems he has with mechanics and feel for pitching.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Mar 6, 2008 10:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Yeah. Exactly. This type of handling is endemic in the entire organization. This is what happens when you have fans like Magowan hiring idiots like Sabean who hire idiots like Alou and Bochy to mangle the Big club and idiots like Tidrow and Hiatt to run and ruin the player development program

by E Ticket on Mar 7, 2008 3:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Actually, I am hearing rather good things about Dick Tidrow.

by sharksrog on Mar 7, 2008 10:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

In 92 IP

split between starting and relieving: 34 IP as a starter, 57 IP as a reliever.

And from that you conclude that "his time for excuses has come and gone."

That is the kind of roster building that leads to trading intriguing young players for washed up vets: for example Jeremy Accardo for Shea Hillenbrand.

How about giving him a defined role, say in AAA if you do not trust him in MLB, and giving him a chance to actually earn a shot?

by rfloh on Mar 6, 2008 8:05 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

phone transcription

"Hello. Brian? This is Lyle. Yeah, you don't know me, but never mind about that. I've got somebody on the other line you REALLY need to talk to, and his name is rfloh. No, seriously, that's name. No, I don't have any idea what...just shut up and listen to the man. You might learn something."

"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Mar 6, 2008 11:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

What I'm saying is that switching a pitcher from starting to relief with as much regularity as the Giants have done with Sanchez isn't good for his development.

Give him a defined role and see how he does.

And it's far too early to be nitpicky about Spring Training statistics. If that was the case, Noah Lowry should be in rookie ball and Brian Bocock would be challenging for a batting title. Hitters are always more prepared than pitchers are at the beginning of the Spring.

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Mar 6, 2008 8:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Bah..

The pitchers are more prepared/hitters are more prepared doesn't matter. It can be said either way to support an argument. The most logical thing I've actually heard is..

First third: Pitchers ahead since they arrived in camp earlier and started baseball activities earlier.

MIddle third: Batters ahead since pitchers are still stretching out and trying things.

Last third: Competition like the regular season.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Mar 6, 2008 8:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I don't believe I'm the first one saying this in such straightforward terms, but:

W-L/ERA are awful stats to use over sample sized doses. Neither one is ever useful when looking at relief stats, thuogh ERA for a reliever over the course of a career has a good shot at evening out to reflect talent. Year to year, though, not even a little. W-L is generally a bad stat to use, though it evens out a lot for starters when you get a lot of games behind it. ERA for starters gets better and better the more years you put behind it.

You have to look at way more than Sanchez's combined ML W-L/ERA to get anything resembling a good statistical scouting report on the guy. And especially so because less than 100IP is miserably small.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Mar 6, 2008 11:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I'm actually not opposed to that. But that looks unlikely to happen. The Giants are more likely to start him as a reliever, move him into the rotation when neccesary and then shuttle him back.

If consistency and a clearly defined role is what he needs to settle, he's probably out of luck because no one in this org seems willing to give him that...

That said, you're right about Lowry. If Noah's MRI results come back today and show him out for awhile, this will be Sanchez's time. If it is his time, he needs to step up and take it by the horns.

If he does that, I will very, very gladly say I was wrong about him, but for now, I admit to just not being impressed by unrealized potential.

by shawngf on Mar 6, 2008 8:11 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

>>> If consistency and a clearly defined role is what he needs to settle, he's probably out of luck because no one in this org seems willing to give him that...

Which is the worst part about the whole thing. When you're going to start Correia over Sanchez because of Correia's 40-some flukey innings of spot starts last year, I can't understand it.

At his best, Correia could be a nice 5th starter. But as Sanchez's best, he could potentially turn into a nice #3. He's got a better fastball -- and from the left side, too, a little more rare for lefties to have his velocity -- and better offspeed stuff. His change is a plus pitch for him and if he could learn to throw his slider a little more consistently -- it's tougher because of his low arm slot -- he could take off.

What would be better for the future of the Giants? Seeing if Sanchez can develop into a #3 or letting Correia be a #5? In this time of the Giants history, they've got the ability to find out what Sanchez has. It's just a shame that they don't seem to understand that.

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 8:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I agree with this.

I don't dislike Correia, but I don't think he's anythng special. Servicable and useful, but little more than that. Sanchez's ceiling if he could harness and point it, is far greater.

But the question is - since the Giants seem utterly unwillng to allow him the chance to do such, will they give up on him much as I have...

See I've given up on him because in the shuttle role, he's pretty much useless and I don't see management letting him out of that.

If they've given up on him, it's because they have no imagination. Rags radio comments from a few days suggest as much.

by shawngf on Mar 6, 2008 8:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Really? Kevin Correia, 2006-2007: 129 ERA+, 3.47 ERA, 1.28 WHIP, 2.2:1 K/BB rate in 170 IP.

You're right, he'll be nothing better than a 5th starter

by Viliphied on Mar 6, 2008 11:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

News Alert:

Pitching out of the bullpen is easier than starting!

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 11:02 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

'cuz when he started (albeit with a small sample size, and late in the season) he was terribad, amirite?

by Viliphied on Mar 6, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

You debate skills are terribad, amirite?

(I never said he didn't do well as a spot-starter, try reading sometime!)

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 11:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Right, you said, in essence, that his stats are inflated because he was a reliever much of the year. That implies that his stats would be worse as a starter. His stats were better when he started than when he relieved.

by Viliphied on Mar 6, 2008 11:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Yes, because you showed me his ERA+ from 2 years of when he pitched out of the bullpen for 90% of the time.

If you think that his good ERA from 40 innings last year as a starter are predictive or help to define how good he'll be as a starter, then I can't help you.

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 11:34 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

No, like I said before, his sample size as a starter is ridiculously small. However, he HAS earned his spot in the rotation through his performance as a reliever.

As I'm sure you're aware, professional baseball is filled with people who have tons of talent, but for whatever reason can't put it together at the next level (so is every professional sport, for that matter). I'm not saying that Sanchez will never put it together, but as of right now, he hasn't, and Correia has.

Correia is still young, he could be around when the Giants are competitive again. Chucking him from the rotation because there's a chance someone else might be better would be really really dumb, like even dumber than Sabean dumb. Following that reasoning, we might as well just start Noonan at 2b this year, because he has WAY more potential than Frandsen. (last sentence exaggerated for effect)

by Viliphied on Mar 6, 2008 12:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

You are right on the money that the average ERA of a reliever is lower than the average ERA of a starter, even though overall a team's better pitchers are starters, not relievers.

But, amazingly, Kevin pitched BETTER as a starter than out of the bullpen. Midway through the season it appeared that since Kevin was being hurt by ill-timed long balls, he might well benefit from becoming a starter, where one home run was less likely to ruin his outing.

I don't think anyone expected Kevin to pitch as well as a starter as he did, however. This will surprise you -- or at least it greatly surprised me -- but Kevin's line drive percentage last season was even lower than either Tim Lincecum's or Matt Cain's. I'm presuming Kevin's line drive percentage as a starter was even lower yet, although that is merely a supposition on my part.

by sharksrog on Mar 6, 2008 11:11 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

His LD% was 14.6% on the season. League average is %20 and for his career his LD% was 19.8%

I'd wager that he got a little lucky with LD's last year and he's not seriously lopped 5% of his LD-rate.

I'm not denying he didn't pitch well as a spot-starter last year, but his upside just isn't as big as Sanchez's, and my point is that with the Giants being as lousy as they are this year, they can explore Sanchez's superior upside instead of going with the safe choice of Correia who's a known quantity.

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I don't think anybody denies Sanchez has the greater upside. What I think, and what I think a lot of people are saying, is that Sanchez just is not ready for MLB. He would greatly benefit by a SP role in Fresno where he can work on his arm slot and slider - both of which he has to refine if he is going to be a successful SP in MLB

by allfrank on Mar 6, 2008 11:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Yes, I suspect Kevin probably did have a little luck with regard to his line drive percentage. I don't really think he is a better pitcher than Matt Cain and certainly not better than Tim Lincecum.

If I were going to predict his LD% for 2008, I would probably go with something like 18.8%.

That said, Kevin was OUTSTANDING as a starter last season, albeit in a small sample.

by sharksrog on Mar 6, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not going to jump into the Correia vs Sanchez

debate; but, I would like to point out that it's not just ERA for a reliever that is lower.

Relieves perform better than starters across the board: ERA, K rate, BB rate.

Studies by BPro, THT, MGL Tango Dolphin, have shown this.

by rfloh on Mar 6, 2008 1:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

#1 SANCHEZ FAN OMG

I feel like I'm the 'sharksrog' for Sanchez ;)

by xanthan on Mar 6, 2008 8:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: #1 SANCHEZ FAN OMG

Preach it, brother. There are plenty of us Sanchez cultists out here.

I think you're underestimating Correia, though. Last two years, he's pitched 170 innings with an FIP around 3.80. That will go up some as a full-time starter, but I think he's a solid #4 right now.

by Evan on Mar 6, 2008 8:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: #1 SANCHEZ FAN OMG

I agree that Jonathan has a high ceiling. I wouldn't trade him unless the Giants could get a lot for him, which I doubt very much is the case now.

I think Jonathan might be best served by beginning the season in Fresno's starting rotation, developing and waiting for an opening in the rotation in San Francisco.

That said, I also have a suspicion that the best way to use him would be to pitch him every other day in relief. I do have fears about the health of his arm, so I would baby it.

by sharksrog on Mar 6, 2008 11:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

It doesn't have to be

Sanchez vs Correia.

Sanchez hasn't exactly beaten AAA hitters into submission yet.

A half season or even one full season as a starter in AAA is not going to permanently stunt his developement. If he pitches well at AAA, with Lowry struggling, Correia no sure thing, there is likely to be a spot for him.

by rfloh on Mar 6, 2008 9:06 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: It doesn't have to be

A half season or full season at AAA as a starter would be absolutely fantastic compared to what he's been assigned to do recently.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Mar 6, 2008 10:16 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: #1 SANCHEZ FAN OMG

Hey, I'm the guy that compared him to Randy Johnson.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Mar 6, 2008 10:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

my feelings on Sanchez

it doesn't matter when in the game you pitch if you have no control. I really want him to succeed but every time I've seen him pitch he appeared to have no idea where the ball was going. I'm worried that he'll never get enough control to be very effective.

2002? I'm over it. But I'll never be over Rich Aurilia.

by wjackalope on Mar 6, 2008 8:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: my feelings on Sanchez

Sanchez has thrown a grand total of 344 at all professional levels. His heaviest work load was at A ball in 2005 with 125 innings. Last year he throw 75.2 innings. That's not a lot opportunity to learn, master and retain your mechanics at a big league level. An old rule of thumb I grew up hearing with developing pitchers is it takes at least 500 Innings. ( Insert snide remark of your choice about non stat based observations here.) And people wonder why his mechanics aren't polished?

... and by the way Dodgers should always suffer like they are back in Brooklyn before World War II.

by daveinexile on Mar 6, 2008 9:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my feelings on Sanchez

Dave, yours and rfloh's comments are the most intelligent on here. Sanchez is having trouble with consistency, particularly with his arm slot, which he is still trying to find. He would be best served spending at least half a year as a SP in Fresno, working on both his arm slot and secondary ptiches. If he 'finds it' I'm sure there will be a spot for him on the big club mid season. ST is half over; he hasn't shown thus far that he is ready for MLB. Correia and Misch both have.

by allfrank on Mar 6, 2008 10:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Mr. Williams you are not happy with what Sabean is offering? Welcome to honorary Giants Fandom for a few minutes. What you aren't enjoying your stay? Well Gods Speed to you.

Good Sabean. Have a Scooby snack.

... and by the way Dodgers should always suffer like they are back in Brooklyn before World War II.

by daveinexile on Mar 6, 2008 9:22 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Might have something to do with the fact that Crede is barely worth anything to begin with.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Mar 6, 2008 10:31 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

I think Crede has some value if he is fully healthy. Right now his injury history coupled with a fairly high salary make him hard to trade, sort of an easier version of Dave Roberts.

The White Sox likely WOULD be well-served to try to get Joe some at bats to demonstrate that he is healthy again. Closer to the trade deadline they might actually be able to get something for him.

On the other hand, if the White Sox are somewhat hamstrung by salaries and need to get rid of Crede early in the season, the Giants might be able to pick up a low-risk opportunity.

by sharksrog on Mar 6, 2008 11:17 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

I have to agree with both you on your points.

Basically Crede is almost a penny stock right now. You don't pay IBM, Microsoft or Google prices for penny stocks.

... and by the way Dodgers should always suffer like they are back in Brooklyn before World War II.

by daveinexile on Mar 6, 2008 11:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

Basically.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Mar 6, 2008 1:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

He has more value than Frandsen. Well actually ball dude has more value than Frandsen, if only for purposes of fan amusement. Actually I hope Sabean pulls another Pyrshitiski for Nathan trade just so Magowan will fire him before his contract is up.

by E Ticket on Mar 7, 2008 3:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Frandsen has less down side

If (when) he stinks up the place the Giants will not hesitate much in sitting ( or worse) if a remotely viable alternative is around. With the Ochoa, Velez and the host of middle infielders picked the last couple years I doubt the Giants would have to wait for years for an in house candidates to try at 2nd.

However an veteran over 30 damn near has to have a Dravecky like event to ride the pine even if he is turning in E.P.A. Super Fund performances. Plus who is likely to force the issue in the next 2 years at third? Leone? Denker?

... and by the way Dodgers should always suffer like they are back in Brooklyn before World War II.

by daveinexile on Mar 7, 2008 4:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

By the way, if someone has shown how Dan Ortmeier is likely to cut it at first base, I have yet to see it. Personally I would start with his actually being a pretty good hitter against southpaws in the minors and his much-shortened stride against righties after coming up to the Giants last season, which actually had him hitting better with the Giants against righties than lefties.

by sharksrog on Mar 6, 2008 11:19 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

Every time I read this headline, I feel like it's some sort of Bocock/Johnson joke that I just don't get.

by Evan on Mar 6, 2008 12:05 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

+1

SFDugout.com is BACK! See the SFDugout.com Top 50 Giants Prospects.

by BruteSentiment on Mar 6, 2008 12:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: White Sox Don't Like What Sabean Is Offering

As some of you have noted, Sanchez needs to start the season at Fresno refining himself into being a starting pitcher, so he can come up when a slot opens here. Because of Lowry's injury, he'll either start on the DL or as the Number Four on the big club, with Correia as the 5. If Lowry isn't able to make it by Opening Day, they should let Misch have his slot until he's ready. Any chance they had to move Lowry is gone, at least until the deadline, so they might as well figure him into their plans and factor in how Correia and Misch fill those slots while letting Sanchez prepare himself to take a slot for good after the deadline. At this point given Lowry's situation, I am no longer a fan of dumping Sanchez or even Correia just to get a Crede in return, and would rather they keep their pitching chips and have Frandsen start at 3B, with Velez and Aurilia backing up as infielders.

by Buck Henry on Mar 6, 2008 12:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Good

by wilriv21 on Mar 6, 2008 1:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

sanchez?

Sanchez throws 93mph from the left:
http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/combined_tool.php?pit=456043&bat=0&type=-1&result=-1& amp;count=-1&r_spd=1&spd=-1&r_brx=1&brx=-100&r_brz=1&brz=-100&l_b=0

Correia throws 91mph from the right:
http://baseball.bornbybits.com/php/combined_tool.php?pit=429781&bat=0&type=-1&result=-1& amp;count=-1&r_spd=1&spd=-1&r_brx=1&brx=-100&r_brz=1&brz=-100&l_b=0

Sure, velocity isn't everything, but with the K% Sanchez features, you don't give him up for a poor man's, whiter Pedro Feliz (Crede: decent defense, weak bat).

by wcw on Mar 6, 2008 10:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs