BP/Sheehan Crushes the G-Men
by KCE on Mar 28, 2008 3:24 PM PDT
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PrintGood Lord. I won't post the whole thing for copyright reasons, but here are the memorable excerpts:
The roster looks like someone’s keeper list from the second Clinton Administration...That’s better than the situation at shortstop, where in the absence of Omar Vizquel and his stories of a time before electricity, the Giants are going with something called Brian Bocock, who hit .220/.293/.328 in the Cal League at the age of 22 last season. Nothing against Bocock—it’s not his fault his superiors can’t run an organization—but what does it say that the second-best available option at shortstop in the system is a 23-year-old who was one of the worst players in High-A?
At the same time the Giants are assembling a roster of Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, and 23 Fresno Grizzlies, they’re embarrassing themselves by erasing all mentions of Barry Bonds from AT&T Park. Bonds is responsible for that park, in the same way that Ken Griffey helped create Safeco Field and Tony Gwynn built Petco Park. It’s one thing to squeeze every last dollar out of the man’s career, another to discard your best player because of public-relations concerns, and another thing entirely to erase him from existence....The spin that a Bonds-free clubhouse will somehow make up for a Bonds-free baseball field has no credibility whatsoever. This is the worst team in baseball, and rapidly challenging for the label of worst organization.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7284
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Not just BP. But just about all sabermetrically minded writers.
And, yes, I agree with this.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.
Anyone with a brain, not a Brian
Anyone with a brain is down on the Giants. It was pretty clear a year ago their decade was over.
I don't even think bocock qualifies as a grizzly either.
I sure wish that Ort Cloud would form a solid sphere to enter into this team's orbit.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Mar 29, 2008 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
btw, I read this title as "BP/Sheehan Crushes on the G-Men" and I got really really confused.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
FWIW, Sheehan bashes them in about 10 questions in his chat, too. Such as:
________
Otto (Halifax): Christina puts the Astros as the franchise in the worst shape. Agree?
Joe Sheehan: Them or the Giants, I'd say. The Astros have some slight edge, to me, in that they could be marginally competitive this season, which at least puts window dressing on things. The Giants are just lost.
________
Tim (DC): Worst full-time positional player to start the season: Luis Hernandez?
Joe Sheehan: Brian Bocock, who was one of the worst players in the California League a year ago. The Giants are going to set some kind of record for Cha-Cha Bowls to go.
________
Mattymystique (Waltham, MA): Joe, do you see Schierholtz give the Giant's a reason to trade one of their wizened corner outfielders this season?
Joe Sheehan: Oh, god no. 125 walks and 66 homers in more than 2000 career PAs? He's the new Lance Niekro.
He answered one of mine
I usually try to get one question in the BP chats.
I don't mind Sheehan either.
Chris (Harrisonburg, VA): Hi Joe, quick question: Will a team lose 100 games this year? And if so, who?
Joe Sheehan: The Giants are the worst team in baseball, and they have a pretty decent shot to lose 100. If Cain or Lincecum gets hurt, they're a lock.
http://www.baycityball.com
Cha-Cha
"The Giants are going to set some kind of record for Cha-Cha Bowls to go."
Ok, that is just plain funny. Sheehan busted out his joke book for this little chat.
Go Fred Lewis... You're better than the alternative... Yippee...
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Mar 29, 2008 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions
"A roster of Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, and 23 Fresno Grizzlies"
The Fresno Grizzlies strenuously object to the allegation that Barry Zito is good enough to play for them.
Eagerly awaiting Crazy Crab Bobblehead Night on 7/18.
Kiss my ass Sheehan
His point about Bocock is just stupid, because he makes it sound like Bocock has been anointed the starting shortstop forever based on his minor league play. Why is it such a difficult concept for this BP genius to understand that Bocock is the best defensive shortstop in the system and is merely filling in until Omar returns from injury?? There's about a hundred reasons to call this franchise lost, and the reason he is using isn't even close to being one of them. It really pisses me off when other people say we suck. Only Giant fans can say that!!
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
Because "the best defensive shortstop in the organization" has flashed a leaden glove this spring. Or how about because the team had to reach all the freaking way down to a-ball to find a 2-week fill in at shortstop? (and by "had to" I mean "was dumb enough to" since there are plenty of AA and AAA shortstops perfectly capable of embarrassing themselves for a couple weeks in the majors).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I think he has 3, but what does that matter? Fielding percentage is a poor measure of a player's defensive abilities.
Bocock has an excellent glove, or else we wouldn't be considering him as our replacement for Omar right now. It's way too early to bring him up because of his bat, but his glove is definitely ready.
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?
I agree that errors are a poor measure of defense
but then, so are the Giants. Cases in point: supposed defensive whiz-kids Ransom and Ellison.
I also worry that Bocock's Spring hitting is so bad they he's taking it with him into the field, a situation which wouldn't improve in the regular season.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Look at it this way:
He's never really hit well enough to begin with, so why would that start bothering him now?
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?
Sheehan needs to ease up on the Bocock bashing...the guy played in the Future's Game and has been put in a tough spot. He has talent and is not the next Bobby Bonds Jr. For the common sense that Sheehan makes, for some reason it also reads like he has an axe to grind against the organization...presumably for some clash of bruised ego's.
As for Tony Gwynn building Petco?! Nope. If the Padres don't win the NL West or the League pennant in 1998, the ballpark might not have been approved and then built. After that magical run, the issue went to the voters in November and the Pads got their stadium six years later (should have opened in 2002, but sue happy people delayed things).
it's always noonan somewhere
Bocock made the futures game because each organization gets a rep and the US team was short a middle infielders. Anyone who enjoys baseball, save Dodger or A's fans, should have an axe to grind with Giants management, it's an abomination.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
So you're saying Bocock was an Affirmative Action placement, not based on any of his talent?
Yeah, the major league club is an abortion at the moment. But cannibalizing the prospects like Bocock, who is an innocent in all of this, is a dumb move. If this front office has any redeeming qualities right now, it's focusing on scouting and player development. And hopefully some of our studs in Augusta will be in Double-A by July of next year or so.
it's always noonan somewhere
I've seen a few exhibition games and I have not seen this "leaden glove" you speak of. He's made a couple of errors on balls (insert Bocock joke here) other shortstops wouldn't even attempt to make plays on. I seriously doubt there's another shortstop in the system who could do what the Giants want right now any better than Bocock can.
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
I've seen him boot a fairly routine grounder against KC. IIRC, he also had a throwing error in the game.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Which happens to the best of them.
I don't think you can really make the claim that Bocock's got a leaden glove because of the game you saw him boot a routine play. I saw him at the Futures Game and I watched him play in three games straight early on in the Spring and all I saw a kid that looked like the second coming of Adam Everett. Amazing range, strong arm and accuracy to boot. And this just so happens to reflect everything I've ever heard and read about Bocock.
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?
There's about a hundred reasons to call this franchise lost, and the reason he is using isn't even close to being one of them.
Sheehan generally annoys the crap out of me, but on this point he's got it just right. What the Giants have done with the shortstop position this off-season, culminating in the apparent decision to make Bocock the starter, is the most amazingly inept, mindless, dysfunctional string of decisions I can recall any major-league team ever making.
Yeah, exactly, when you set the team up so that your only real option at shortstop is a 41 year old and the next best option is a 23 year old who sucked horribly at high-A... that's not intelligent team design.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
I think you guys are making the same mistake Sheehan is making. If Omar was out for the year, Brian Bocock would not be the Opening Day shortstop. Omar is supposedly playing in a minor league game tomorrow, and if all goes well he'll be back for the home opener. Why is it stupidity and poor planning that a team that is basing everything on their pitching would want to use what they think is their best defensive shortstop for one week until their regular shortstop returns??
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
Its stupid when your best shortstop is in Single A. Offense. Defense. No fence. It makes no difference. It reflects directly on your lack of players at every other level above A ball. What does it say about their draft choices in Double AA and Triple AAA?
If the kid was a phenom, and his contract guaranteed him a spot on the 40 man roster, I could possibly see it. It sends a fucked up message to the rest of the players in the organization. Totally fucked up. Please explain to me how you go about explaining this shit to your infielders in Fresno, and Norwich and San Jose. A guy that can't hit at the batting cages is in the fucking show traveling on charter flights and you're riding a fucking bus around New England?
Dood. Just from a ballplayer's standpoint that is totally fucked up on so many different levels that I cant even list them all. Totally. But than again so are the assholes running this franchise.
by E Ticket on Mar 28, 2008 6:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I totally disagree with you, and in fact you're really not making any sense right here. You're making it sound like they went to high school to get Bocock. He was the starting shortstop at San Jose last year, and he was going to be promoted to Connecticut or Fresno this year. You could easily make the case he IS the next in line in the minors. Perhaps you might think Ochoa is next in line, but there could be a thing with options going on here, where if they call up Ochoa they have to expose him to waivers to send him back down. I'm not sure if that's the case, but it's entirely possible. Actually I do agree with your last thought though, and that's the one about the assholes running the franchise.
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
That Bocock is next in line is the problem, no? Even defensive specialists have to display a certain minimum level of hitting ability, but Bocock couldn't even do that in SAN JOSE. It won't happen, but he might deserve to bat ninth. and why? If he's a remotely legitimate prospect, this is a terrible, terrible idea.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Well, I guess I was trying to make two points and they got enmeshed and I tripped myself up doing the crossover.
The main thrust is this. Last year we know there were at least 4 guys in the system placed ahead of him on the depth chart...a depth chart that is fairly well known, though not formally disclosed, throughout the system. So all of a sudden, Mr. Rourke goes down and the Giants pull up a kid from Single A that has demonstrated no ability whatsoever to wield a wooden bat, let alone a wooden bat in organized baseball. And even though its only for two weeks and an emergency and etc etc etc., if I'm one of those 4 guys further up the depth chart, I am going like What the fuck is going on here. And so is everybody else in the farm system. It has a ripple effect. It smacks of ineptness and unfairness in an organization that is already viewed as being chickenshit.
And for defensive purposes. People keep overlooking the fact that the game at the MLB level is so much faster. Everything happens faster. This is the big problem that Frandsen had, continues to have, and will always have. He just lacks the natural quickness and speed to function at the MLB level. I've not seen Bocock personally, so I can't comment one way or the other. Its not like the local tv outlets are in a big hurry to broadcast Giants preseason games this year.
by E Ticket on Mar 28, 2008 8:54 PM PDT up reply actions
You're not talking about just a baseball thing, but a workplace thing in general. Most companies have a "depth chart," and if a guy 3 levels down the org chart fills in for the VP of Whatever when he gets sick, the rest of the org chart is going to be unhappy.
No, really, I have updated my blog this year: http://skaldheim.livejournal.com/tag/baseball
Exactly Skaldheim. Thats one of the things that seems to get lost in the MSM driven dehumanization of high end sports figures. Its a job. A great job as we all know, but it is a job and like all people who work for a living, if the patterns and rhythms within the organization are ruptured by management in an apparently irrational way that gives the impression of broken commitments, and inept promotion policy, then the entire organization feels it and mistrusts it.
Again, its just not drafting talent. Its knowing what to do with it after you have it. The Giants clearly have had no clue since Magowan insinuated himself into baseball operations. Beyond belief really.
by E Ticket on Mar 28, 2008 11:41 PM PDT up reply actions
The latter sentiment I agree with, but I just don't see that Bocock was "three levels down." He also got off to a nice start at San Jose last year before slumping at the end, and as mentioned before was named to the futures game before the slump hit. I just don't see three shortstops in the system ahead of him and as I said, he is expected to be the starter at AA or AAA this year. If Angel Villalona hits .350 with 35 homers at Augusta this season, (doubtful but who knows with his potential??) do you think the Giants owe Travis Ishikawa some kind of explanation or apology if they bring Angel up for a look see?? Maybe Travis should stop hitting .180!! Did you complain when Tim dominated and was rushed to the majors ahead of hacks like Matt Kinney and Brian Cooper?? I guess you could argue that those guys deserved their promotions by dominating and Bocock hasn't, but I think it's the fault of any shortstop that you consider ahead of Bocock who was unable to impress, and not the fault of Giants' management.
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
He also got off to a nice start at San Jose last year before slumping at the end
Bocock went 11 for his first 33 in May, then hit .210, .214, .174 in June, July and August. I wouldn't call that a "nice start".
If Angel Villalona hits .350 with 35 homers at Augusta this season, (doubtful but who knows with his potential??) do you think the Giants owe Travis Ishikawa some kind of explanation or apology if they bring Angel up for a look see??
Bocock isn't brought up for a "look see" - he's brought up as a stopgap. If the Giants think he could ever be could, then it's a bad idea because it wastes an option. If they don't, it's a bad idea because we have better options in the minors.
And anyway, the real issue is: Our shortstop is 41 years old. Why don't we have a reasonable backup?! What was Sebean's plan?
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.
Except that Bocock did NOT
hit 350 with 35 homers. He hit 220.
Yes, sure, if you throw out the bad part of his year, he looks better. That is the case for every player. The bad parts happened too. Just like the good parts. What is your justification for throwing out the bad parts?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
I like Bocock
But Bocock had a 621 OPS in A+ at age 22, so he was not young for his levels, in a league where the average ws 703. If your argument is that Bocock is the next in line, that Bocock is the best the Giants have after Vizquel, then you are basically agreeing with Sheehan.
As for Ochoa and options, they should not be a problem. He's never been in the majors at all, so it isn't as if he was bouncing back and forth between MLB and the minors burning up options. Furthermore, he only needed to be protected on the 40 man after the 2005 season. So, if one option was used in 2006, and one in 2007, he should still have one more option left.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Omar Vizquel
Soon to be 41 yr old SS coming off knee surgery and with no apparent back-up for the entire season is poor planning.
Bocock starting at SS is reason #101 this franchise is lost.
If he's a legit prospect, he shouldn't be called up 3 years early. That's 3 years earlier that he'll run out of options, 3 years earlier that he'll hit arbitration, and 3 years earlier that we lose him to free agency (or have to pony up to keep him). All this for a week of good defense, because Sabean didn't have a contingency plan if his 41-y/o shortstop went down.
Ivan Ochoa hit .296 at AAA last year. It was probably a fluke, but the fact that he's hit above A-ball makes him a better candidate than Bocock. If Bocock is worthy of this early call up, keep him on the roster and let him get 400 PAs at the major league level, and hope his hitting comes around some time near the end of 2010.
Hopefully the kid hits a lucky .250 in his week with the club, then uses the extra confidence to figure out AA pitching. But this team isn't going anywhere; Bocock isn't enough of an improvement over anyone to merit calling him up 3 (or more!) years early.
I'm not singling you out, rx, but this seemed to be an appropriate place to put my argument. This Bocock kid is a polarizing figure.
Bengie Molina: stretching doubles into singles since 1998.
I see the point you guys are making but I just don't agree. We're probably talking about 20 atbats here, and Bocock is a far superior shortstop to Ivan Ochoa defensively. Bocock will go 3 for 20, and we should keep the poorer defender because he will probably go 5 for 20?? Just one more error by Ochoa in that week of games will probably hurt the Giants more than the two singles they missed out on. I think people like Sheehan and certain fans just want to rip the Giants for every decision they make these days, and they're really going after them here for something that is totally innocuous. Brian Bocock should NOT be a polarizing figure as you called him. It's just not that big a thing. A better question would be what do the Giants do when Vizquel gets back, because he's going to need plenty of days off and there doesn't appear to be anyone on the roster who can play the position. Are they going to play Omar so much his 2009 option kicks in?? Will they play Jose Castillo as his backup?? And if they do, why not just let Castillo play short next week until Omar returns?? Why waste a roster space on Bocock, Ochoa or anyone?? I think that would be a more legitimate complaint about management, one that I would be on board for.
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
Why are you insisting it's 20 ABs
Omar Vizquel is 40 years old and just had knee surgery. How can you make such an absolute declaration that his recovery will match the most optimistic predictions; he'll suffer no setbacks, relapses or reinjuries after returning, or that he'll be able to play every day for the long season? (Without even considering the possibility that last year's offensive decline will be equalled once over to the point where his bat can't justify staying in the lineup.) Backup SS is a position that could easily need to occupy 300 ABs or more this year, and Brian Bocock who simply will never be even a a minimally capable minor league hitter, is the best option we have? I'm not sure why you're having trouble seeing that that's a valid complaint. And, btw, Bocock was not ticketed for AA or AAA starter before ST began. I think most observers felt he needed to be back in A ball, where he certainly was one of the worst offensive starters in the Cal League last year.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
A better question would be what do the Giants do when Vizquel gets back, because he's going to need plenty of days off and there doesn't appear to be anyone on the roster who can play the position.
That is the crux of the problem exactly, that management has no viable backup plan for Vizquel for 2008.
You seem to want to consider Bocock's one- or two-week tour until Vizquel returns from the DL as a separate issue, but it's really part of the same problem.
I guess when viewed in that way you guys make a good point, but none of the previous posters mentioned what we just mentioned, which was what the Giants do when Omar returns. I guess I would say now that any criticism of the Giants for Bocock is premature. It's kind of ironic though that we're all criticizing the Giants right here for giving a young guy a shot when all we've been saying for the last two years is give the young guys a shot!! I guess the Giants' didn't realize that we also wanted the young guy to actually be ready for the major leagues.
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
The problem is NOT
giving Bocok a shot. The problem is that Bocok is the best SS in the system after Vizquel. The problem is that Bocock has a case as being the best SS in the system.
This is what Sheehan said "but what does it say that the second-best available option at shortstop in the system is a 23-year-old who was one of the worst players in High-A?"
Do you disagree that it is a problem that the best SS in the system after Vizquel is a guy who hit 220 in A+ at age 22?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Ummm
Isn't Ochoa better than Bocock? Isn't the problem not so much that the team doesn't have a better option than Bocock, but rather that - like they did when promoting BOTH Eliezar and Guillermo over Justin - they have no good reason not to use the better option, and yet still opt not to?
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!
by howtheyscored on Mar 29, 2008 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
I believe that Ochoa is better
But, rxmeister has been arguing that Bocok is better.
By his argument, if Bocock, is better, that is a blackmark on Sabean.
Or basically, there are multiple reasons why playing Bocock is a blackmark on Sabean: if Bocock is the best, that is bad; OTOH, if Bocock is not the best, yet is promoted, that is even worse.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
when Bocock was hitting well at Augusta early last season, everybody seemed to love him over here and considered him a good prospect. Now that he went to San Jose and slumped, everyone has given up on him. It really surprises me to see fans jump off the ship this quickly. This is the kind of logic that has driven Sabean to be the way he is, always looking for the older guys. Everybody says they're on board for a long rebuild, but what does it say about fans when they give up on a guy this quickly?? If Angel Villalona gets up here and hits .180 his first month is everybody going to say he's a stiff as well?? I hate to say this, but it looks like Giants' managment is right when it comes to the conclusion that fans won't sit still for a rebuild. Might as well go back to getting the older guys. Hey, Woody Williams was just released. Go get him, Brian!!
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
He hit well in Augusta?
only by the exceedingly low standards of this organization, and even then I'd only go so far as "ok". Call me crazy, but .292/.354/.379 just doesn't scream future major leaguer to me (never mind age-to-level concerns).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
> it looks like Giants' managment is right when
> it comes to the conclusion that fans won't sit
> still for a rebuild.
I think it's more accurate to say that the fans won't sit still for a losing and boring (no Bonds, no exciting position player prospects) team. Which is what we now have.
The Giants have enough payroll that they should be able to field a 70-75 win team of while simultaneously rebuilding. It shouldn't be an either or. And what is extra frustrating is fielding a 100 loss team with no significant hope on the horizon.
Which yet again indicates that Sabean is one of the least effective GMs in the game, if not *the* least. He may have has some tricks up his sleeve ten years ago, but, the state of the game has long since passed him by.
You're really going to have to validate
the "everybody loved him here" comment. As a daily reader/contributor to Steve's daily diaries I'd say that was a radical misreading. Brute for one has never had much good to say about him. And I've never really been a believer in either him or Burriss. Remember, the Giants comment about him going into last season was "if we can turn him into a .260 hitter he'll make a lot of money" which 1) wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of his offensive potential; 2) still seemed like a pipe dream given his past (college) performances and scouting reports.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.
For the last time,
you do NOT get to toss out the bad parts of his career. His hitting well in Augusta counts, as does his hitting badly in San Jose as does his hitting badly in Augusta the previous year. He hit badly in San Jose in 398 PAs. PAs. I repeat, 398Pas. Should I repeat that again? In 699 PAs in his career, he has hit badly.
Your constant and incessant focus on his hitting in Augusta in 2007 is the kind of Sabean thinking that leads to the signing of Randy Winn after a fluke month.
If Angel Villalona hits 180 his 1st month, that is still only A MONTH. Are you arguing that Bocock has only one month of pro experience?
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
You're reading too much into it...
There are young players who have business being on a major league roster. There are young players who might have business on a major league roster at some point, but certainly not at the present time. Bocock is one of the clearest examples of the latter in recent memory. The dude hit like a pitcher in high-A. No joke. A pitcher. Now he's on the 40-man roster just so he can give the Giants two or three weeks of defense.
That's one of the most stunning cases of mismanagement in the career of Brian Sabean's career, which says a lot. I don't think, however, that Bocock is guaranteed to fail for his career. That's not my point. I would also much rather prefer an opening day lineup with Brian Horwitz at first over Rich Aurilia, just to give one example. I'm ready for the rebuild. Give me Velez at second and Schierholtz in right. Trade Molina for the cash value of a newspaper coupon and start Steve Holm. I'm in.
Bocock just doesn't fit in any respectable major league roster -- rebuilding or contending -- right now. That doesn't mean we think he sucks, and that doesn't mean we aren't ready for a rebuild.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 30, 2008 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm wondering, after reading all the doom-and-gloom preseason reports, if these writers are competing to see who can write the most pessimistic article. OK, already. We know the team is going to stink. We got that.
However, that "it's not his fault his superiors can't run an organization" line is very telling. Can't fault the workers if the management doesn't know what the hell they're doing.
The Johnnie LeMaster Fan Club vice-president. E6 Forever!
So, BP has been blasting the Giants and Sabean for years. The fact that it took this long for the team to collapse into decrepitude is a testament to Sabeans' lucky rabbit foot and the best player in the universe.
I have noticed that EVERY SINGLE WRITER projects the Giants to finish last. I think even 95% of the posts in the prediction thread of GIANTS HOMERS predict this.
And this is not a case like the As or Royals where they simply have no revenues - we have a $90M payroll for christy's sake. The management RAN this team into the ground - because they are blind to the basic facts of baseball, particularly scoring runs. Couple that with a concerted effort to ignore the farm system to sign veteran loser after veteran loser... ugh.
I think the worsts part of all this is that the starting pitching staff could really be quite good. In the 30 years I have been a Giants fan, starting pitching has always been the weakness. When we had good teams, we typically managed to have a single ace - Schmidt, Swift, Rueschel... someone, but lucky to have an average #2. Cain and Lincecum have the potential to be dynamite. Correia and Sanchez have shown flashes. Really the question mark is Barry Fuzzing Zito - ex cy young winner! I mean, if Zito is the worst problem in your rotation, it's not a bad rotation.
Wasted, all of it, becuase they don't have a single major league calibre hitter in the infield. Not one. It's no wonder they don't have any backups - if they had a decent backup, they'd be the starter! The outfield is merely mediocre, although with the potential to be totally powerless.
It's almost like Sabean & Co are flagellating themselves in penance for having the EVIL Barry all these years... well, that can't be it, because the decline was started before the 'roids story even broke.
The last infielders to get any (deserved) ink in this organization? Jay Canizaro, Bill Mueller, and Rich Aurilla. That was about 1995. Pedro Feliz came up as a super-sub utility guy with pop who ended up the best fielding 3B in the majors. Niekro, Minor, etc. - these guys were merely prospects at 1B by default. No shortstops. No 2B. No 3B. IN THIRTEEN YEARS.
FIRE BRIAN SABEAN
The pitch. Swings. Outta here! Fog Horn. Cue Tony Bennet.
by E Ticket on Mar 29, 2008 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Quibble
It won't break my heart to see Sabean go, but we should acknowledge there's a certain amount of luck in this. They drafted Sanders, for instance, and many "experts" tabbed him as a top prospect at short. Then his arm goes. So they try him at second. His arm can't even take that and now he is virtually done. And we don't know how many times they've tried to get free agents to come here who turned them down. I guess I see being a GM as a lot harder job than most people on this site. Sabean needs to go but it's probably for being mediocre, not awful.
by NearestNorwich on Mar 29, 2008 11:28 AM PDT reply actions
GM work is hard. Granted. We make allowances for mistakes. One has to. I dispute that his performance has been mediocre. For the last several years, he has been outshown by the freaking blogosphere for goodness sakes. The last several years of course happen to coincide with the insinuation of Prince Peter Pumpkin Eater's gigantic Fanboy-ego into baseball decisions. For that reason alone, Sabean deserves some slack and an upgrade from total horseshit to semi-chickenshit.
You beat me to your "first Giant game by one series. I caught the Pirates the following series after Cincinnati. So unofficially you are really an old bastard.
by E Ticket on Mar 29, 2008 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Sometimes, you make your own bad luck
From BA's minor league transactios
San Francisco Giants
Released: RHP Yosandy Ibanez, RHP Lars Knepper, C Henry Gutierrez, 1B Chad Rothford, 1B Will Thompson, 1B Tyler Von Schell, 2B Pat Dobson, 2B Marcus Sanders, 3B Juan Jean, OF Emmanuel Cividanes, OF Joey Dyche, OF Santiago Lara, OF Matt Weston
Optioned to Triple-A: RHP Billy Sadler, LHP Patrick Misch, C Guillermo Rodriguez, 1B Travis Ishikawa, 2B Travis Denker, OF Nate Schierholtz
Sanders’ story is one of talent squandered by the organization, which drafted him knowing that Sanders had a shoulder injury that dated to his high school career. Nonetheless, the Giants put him at shortstop in his breakout 2005 season, when he ranked as the No. 3 prospect in the South Atlantic League. His shoulder started giving him problems that summer, leading other SAL managers to question why the Giants were allowing him to play the field when he couldn’t do it physically. Sanders had significant offseason shoulder surgery that year, had a thumb injury that set him back in ‘06 and never regained the power in his swing even after the shoulder surgery. He hit five homers in the first half of the ‘05 season (prior to the injury) but never homered again as a pro. (John Manuel)
Pedro Feliz would look great in Dodger Blue.
Speaking of BP
Is there anyone who can post what Will Carroll wrote about the Fransden injury in this article : http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7270
Thanks.
Excerpt:
Frandsen had been dealing with soreness and inflammation in the area over the week, but there were no indications that there was a loss of structural integrity. Achilles injuries tend to be traumatic, happening all at once, but with the previous problems, there have to be some questions about how this one occurred. The team didn't confirm the injury was a rupture, but if so, Frandsen's season is done and he'll need surgery.
He also says what has been mentioned elsewhere, that recoveries from these injuries are typically very good.
Since I have not seen this posted anywhere
Gotay was waived by the Mets, picked up by the Braves.
So, Sabean believes that Gotay is not good enough for the Giants.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Gotay hit .295 with the Mets last year, but he was a .260 hitter his entire minor league career. I can understand if the Giants had some reservations on him.
Randy Messenger: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!!"
Actually
Gotay hit 276 in the minors.
I suppose you can understand why the Giants would rather have Jose Castillo instead of Gotay. Castillo is 1 1/2 older. He's a proven veteran.
ZIPS: Milledge: 466 HR, 485 2B, 2282 hits, 278-379-524
Gotay fell victim to Sabean's "must not do" list -- the one he started after 1996 with, "must not have two well-paid stars".
After Neifi and Michael Tucker, he added "must not sign former Royals." Sorry, Ruben Gotay.
After this season he'll surely add "must not carry more than 5 centerfielders."
Evidence that Sabean also has a "must do" list is actively sought by fans.
But Gotay was born on Christmas
That's automatic intangibles out the wazoo. But don't take my word for it, just ask The Rickey.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
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