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Angry Blog Post

Grant_tiny by Grant on in News

I had two choices. I could go with the fake spring training story, or sob about this article:

The Giants might be able to get Crede without parting with a pitcher like Jonathan Sanchez. Outfielder Fred Lewis is out of options and generated interest with several teams this winter.
Brilliant. Don't pay attention to the "might be able...without parting with...Jonathan Sanchez." That's scary enough, but the article keeps going. Fred Lewis for Crede?
Sabean: We have three players with an outside shot of helping the next good Giants team. Let's send one to AAA, think about benching one in favor of Ray Durham and Rich Aurilia, and trade the last one for a one-year rental.

Reporter: Nice. What do you call this strategy?

Sabean: The Aristocrats!

If I were you, I'd just do a Google search for "newspaper headline generator", and forget about this article. It worked well for me.

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Re: Angry Blog Post
I wouldn't really be particularly surprised if Fred Lewis has a higher OPS than Joe Crede in 2008, tbh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 20, 2008 2:04 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
Here is one I was able to find, not exactly the best news...

"Right-hander Henry Sosa, one of the most promising pitchers in the Giants system, had surgery after last season to repair a torn patella tendon in his left knee. Sosa is throwing but he will not take part in the organization's minor league mini-camp, trainer Dave Groeschner said. If all goes well, Sosa could be cleared to compete in mid-April.

Sosa was the Giants' World Team representative in the All-Star Futures Game last July."

At least he should be back in April.

http://www.mercurynews.com/giantsheadlines/ci_8302356

Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: Your 2008 closer.

by sfgreg on Feb 20, 2008 2:08 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
Should keep him from being traded, anyway. At least for a couple of months.

by Evan on Feb 20, 2008 2:24 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
I guess my question is, who else is it going to be? I know many people aren't high on Crede but we absolutely have to pick up some semblance of a third or first baseman before Opening Day. I think most of us would prefer taking a chance on a Nick Johnson or even Chris Shelton but the Crede deal sounds all but done.

That being said, we're not getting him while still holding on to Lowry, Sanchez, Lewis, Davis and Schierholz (I know I botched the spelling). Let's face it, we don't have anything else. Surprisingly the Sox haven't bitten on the Roberts and Durham for Crede package. I like Lewis and it's laughable that despite everything that's been said, we're on the verge of sending another prospect for an injury-riddled veteran but, if the deal has to happen, I'm glad we're holding on to our pitching.

by saveuszito on Feb 20, 2008 2:12 PM PST   0 recs

Why...
do we HAVE to pick up a 3rd and 1st baseman by opening day.  No move exists that Brian Sabean could make that will keep us from sucking slightly more than a black hole this year.   We could trade Ray Durham for Albert Pujols and still lose 90 games.  
Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Feb 20, 2008 2:23 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
I don't see much reason to think Crede is better than what we have on hand (Aurilia, Frandsen, Leone).

by Evan on Feb 20, 2008 2:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
I'd prefer Crede over all of those guys, unless Bochy starts Durham over Frandsen. He's only a year removed from a pair of decent seasons.

Just not enough to trade any sort of value.

by Grant on Feb 20, 2008 3:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
Once again, I still think Durham is the fulcrum here. If Durham gets through camp looking like he's going to be a 260-270 hitter, the team seems fairly sanguine with letting Frandsen playing hot corner, with  Aurilia spelling him on the fairly often off days for Durham and Omar.  But it seems like the team doesn't really believe that Durham is going to bounce back, and if so, the options are limited to Crede and a few other guys like him.

by prospecthound on Feb 20, 2008 5:09 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
The specifics of this potential trade are less galling than the philosophy behind them. Fred Lewis is out of options? Hey, here's an idea: why not stop sending your young prospects back and forth between here and Fresno? Seriously, is it too much to ask this organization to give its young players a significant amount of regular playing time -- say, at least half of a regular season -- before making a go/no-go decision on them?

If someone decides in late July that Fred Lewis will not be leading us to the Promised Land of multiple championships, then fine. The fact that these discussions are happening before the first ST game is nauseating.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 20, 2008 2:31 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
In some ways I think trading Lewis would hurt them team more trading Sanchez. Although Sanchez is probably the better player in absolute terms, I think Fred Lewis is the only OF in the Giants system with 20 HR power (starters included). As far as the Giants are concerned, the marginal benefit of a 20 HR season is much greater than another decent pitching prospect.

by Scottsdale on Feb 20, 2008 2:33 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
ummmm Schierholtz?
Pedro Feliz. He's a Phillie.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Feb 20, 2008 2:40 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

20 HR Power from Nate?
He could develop more, sure.  But the most he's had at any stop is 16 and most in a season is 18.  15 HR I may expect, 20 might be pushing it.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 20, 2008 9:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: 20 HR Power from Nate?
Fred Lewis has never had more than 12 HRs in a  season, and he's been older than Nate at every level.
Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 20, 2008 10:07 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yes...
But Fred Lewis can play third base!
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 20, 2008 10:31 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

The seroius answer...
IN about 325 ABs Lewis had 12 HRs between AAA and the ML coming off the bench.  Take that to a full season and he's above 20 HR.  Even shave a few off from AAA and he's near it.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 20, 2008 10:33 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: The seroius answer...
Fred Lewis, a 27 (or 28, I'm not checking) year old, has 41 career home runs between the minors and the majors.

There is no way that he projects as having more power than Nate.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 20, 2008 10:39 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: The seroius answer...
I agreez with your assertion.
IT'S BASEBALL IT'S BASEBALL IT'S BASEBALL IT'S BASEBALL!!!

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Feb 20, 2008 11:37 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

um...
So we're going to complain when Sabean stacks up layers of CFs, yet complain again when he tries to trade one for an infielder that could possibly help the hapless offense?

Look, I realize Freddie has many friends around here, but the reality is that between him, Roberts, and Davis, he will get only very limited ABs (and that's not even factoring Schierholtz into the situation!). He did pretty well last year, but I think it's nothing but wishful thinking if anyone thinks he'll become an above average outfielder.

It seems to me that it would be a positive thing to trade a player that probably won't be anything other than average who plays a position that they have huge depth at so they can give Crede a try on our very offensively limited infield. If nothing else it gets Nate closer to the majors and gives Davis more ABs. And don't forget Fairley (sp?) will hopefully be coming up the ranks in the near future, who seems to be Freddy, version 1.3

Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 20, 2008 2:39 PM PST   0 recs

Re: um...
I don't think that the issue is trading FRED LEWIS for Crede... it's trading anyone for Crede.  Who is Pedro Feliz with no defense and 10 points of batting average.

by zenbitz on Feb 20, 2008 2:51 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
I think most metrics had Crede playing above-average defense (when healthy, of course.)
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 20, 2008 3:02 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
Maybe the awful numbers I saw were from last year when he was hurt...

by zenbitz on Feb 20, 2008 3:30 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

What awful numbers?
The numbers I'm seeing, RZR and Zone Rating for Crede are very good to great, 18 runs above average and 8 runs above average respectively.

He doesn't appear in MGL's top 3 3b in the AL in 2007, but he doesn't appear in the bottom 3 either.

by rfloh on Feb 20, 2008 10:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: What awful numbers?
He's a fine defender, but his bat stinks.  The only reason Giants fans are interested is because Feliz's bat was so much worse, it negated his best-in-the-majors glovework the last few years.  Crede's bat is bad enough, it negates his above-average glovework.  Oh, and he has a bad back.  That's not going to help.

I'd trade Durham for him, though.

by wcw on Feb 20, 2008 11:30 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
You don't see a contradiction between "give Crede a try" and "it's nothing but wishful thinking if anyone thinks he'll become above average"?

The only reason there's huge depth in the outfield is that Sabean keeps bringing in veterans on the downhill side of their careers(Roberts, most egregiously). Dumping Lewis to bring in another veteran on the downhill side of his career would be compounding the error.

by Evan on Feb 20, 2008 3:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
I don't see a contradiction here. You give Crede a try at 3B because he's better than any option you have. Lewis is not better than any other option you have at OF, at least he hasn't shown it.
Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 20, 2008 5:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

How about this one....
Joe Crede does absolutely nothing to bring the next competitive Giants team into existence.  

We will give up talent to acquire him and invariably he will start off the season on a 1 month hot streak.  Since the management has no idea what "results-based analysis" is or why it is important to avoid it, we will end up signing him to a multi-year contract. The next Giants GM will then be saddled with yet another aged, overpaid, and non-productive player courtesy of the current brain trust.

Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Feb 20, 2008 3:11 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: How about this one....
yup.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Feb 20, 2008 3:40 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: How about this one....
>> We will give up talent to acquire him and invariably he will start off the season on a 1 month hot streak.  Since the management has no idea what "results-based analysis" is or why it is important to avoid it, we will end up signing him to a multi-year contract.

Thats what scares me the most. The Merc article even hints that the Giants might try to lock Crede up long term.

Although Crede will be a free agent after this season, the Giants consider him a potential long-term piece because they have no third-base prospects in the system. Crede might not be as athletic as the Giants would prefer - he has four stolen bases in 701 career games - but Rowand said his agility at third base ranks with that of Gold Glove fielders Scott Rolen and Eric Chavez.

Ugh.

by xanthan on Feb 20, 2008 3:42 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: How about this one....
Well, if Rowand said it, it should be alright.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Feb 20, 2008 3:45 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I don't get it...
I'm reading this article and thinking, "Shoot, if that's what they end up doing, why not just keep Feliz?" At least that way they don't have to trade away Fred Lewis, and they don't get a third baseman with injury concerns.

Also, am I wrong in thinking that Crede and Feliz are essentially the same player? Crede has somewhat better hitting numbers, but I suspect that the tradeoff between US Cellular Field and Mays Field has something to do with that.

If Crede and Feliz are basically the same guy, then it seems like the question ends up being a choice between the draft pick the Giants will get via the Phillies signing Feliz, and whoever the Giants would trade to get Crede, be it Lewis or Sanchez or whoever else.

That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

by tobias on Feb 20, 2008 6:27 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I don't get it...
>> Also, am I wrong in thinking that Crede and Feliz are essentially the same player? Crede has somewhat better hitting numbers, but I suspect that the tradeoff between US Cellular Field and Mays Field has something to do with that.

You're right. Crede and Feliz are basically the same type of player. Poor OBP's, low BA's, good for about 20 HRS a year, and play a good third base.

Check out their career lines, and Crede has had the benefit of hitting in a park thats helped hitters.

Crede - .259/.305/.446
Feliz - 252/.288/.433

I just don't get a Crede pick up for the Giants, unless he comes cheap.

by xanthan on Feb 20, 2008 7:11 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yup.
That's why this trade makes no sense.

Crede is a better offensive player, probably 10-15 runs or so better. Feliz is a slightly better defensive player, maybe 5 runs better.

That is if Crede is healthy.

by rfloh on Feb 20, 2008 10:48 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yup.
You forget to adjust for park.

Crede's bat -- if his back is healthy, which is not guaranteed -- is 5 to 10 runs better per year than Feliz's.  Feliz's glove is superb, which is to say, perhaps the same 5 to 10 runs better than a my-back-magically-healed Crede's.

They're equivalent players.  Except Crede is riskier and more expensive.

by wcw on Feb 20, 2008 11:35 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

I adjusted for park.
I'm looking at Feliz' last 3 seasons.

Since the point of this is IF Crede is healthy, I'm ignoring his 2007, and just looking at his 2004-2006.

I'm using a simple 5-4-3 weighting system, with 5 being the most recent year, 2007 for Feliz, 2006 for Crede.

Using BPro's stats, ie batting runs above avearage, and a 5-4-3 weighting for 2006-2004, Crede is around 4 runs below average.

Feliz, using the same weightings, and BPro's stats, is around 14 runs below average.

Using BBRef' stats, ie linear weighted Batting Runs, 5-4-3 weighting, Crede is around 3 runs below average.

Feliz, about 19 runs below average.

So using a simple 5-4-3 weighting, a healthy Crede is 10 runs better than Feliz by BPro, 16 runs better by linear weighted batting runs. 10-16 runs.

If you use just a straight average, the gap narrows somewhat, to around 10 runs in favour of Crede.

Feliz using BPro's stats, EQA adjusted to average, has averaged around 13 runs below average. Using BBRef's stats, ie linear weighted Batting Runs, has averaged around 18 runs below average.

Crede last 3 years prior to 2007, has averaged aroun d 5-7 runs below average.

8-10 runs difference offensively.

As for D, if you want to argue, 5-10 runs instead of 5, I'm not going to disagree, the defensive metrics are not precise enough, in my opinion, to argue about a difference of a few runs.

by rfloh on Feb 21, 2008 8:18 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I adjusted for park.
Since these numbers agree with my intuitive sense of Crede vs. Feliz, I wholeheartedly agree with them. And you, rfloh.
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Feb 21, 2008 12:03 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: I adjusted for park.
Because I'm in marketing...

Joe Crede: He's less below-average than Feliz!

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 21, 2008 2:43 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
If we're trading Lewis for a young first or third baseman, I'm all for it. Heck, I think I've even posted mock trades suggesting as much.

Trading Lewis for a one-year, thirty-something rental? Bad idea. Horrible, horrible idea.

The Giants would be a better team with Crede. The Giants would still be an awful team with little-to-no chance at the playoffs with Crede. Trading anything more than a token player -- like when the Giants got David Hasselhoff's cousin in a trade -- would be a joke for a team in the Giants' situation.

by Grant on Feb 20, 2008 3:26 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
If they are a better team by acquiring Crede, then why not give up an OF, which they have too much of? I really think everyone is overvaluing Lewis. It's one thing if you have way too many OFs, and one of them has awesome potential, then trade him away for a mediocre 3B. That I would disagree with. However, if you can give away a mediocre OF to upgrade your 3B from horrendous to mediocre, then I would agree with it.
Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 20, 2008 5:03 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
Is the goal for the Giants to be a better team, or is the goal for the Giants to make the playoffs and possibly a World Series? If it's the latter, then Fred Lewis might have a 20% chance of helping that goal over the next four years. Crede has a .0001% chance of helping that goal next season.

The Giants have to think in those terms if they don't want to just swim around the 75-win shallow end for the rest of their existence.

And trust me, I've never been a huge Lewis backer. He has a chance to be average, with a small chance to be more.

by Grant on Feb 20, 2008 5:22 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
My heart isn't totally into it, but I'll do the devil's advocate's work on this one.
 Crede's a better gamble than Lewis.  In his last healthy year in 06 (age 28 season) Crede hit .283/.323/.506, well above average for a 3 Bagger.  Lewis needs to hit substantially better than that  to be an above average left fielder.  Crede is coming off back sugery and after Alfonso we're all more than a little gun shy on this issue, but  I should point out that Crede just had a couple herniated discs- it could have a long term effect, but it isn't really in the same catagory as the cronic lower back issues Alfonso had, and that traditionally is like crytonite to power hitters. He could actually be healthy. or not.
   The point is, that though there's no such thing as minor back surgery,  Crede has probably as much chance (probably more) of regaining his health and resuming his proven above average 3B production as Fred Lewis will ever have providing above average numbers for a corner outfielder.  Both are gambles. If all Crede costs the team is Fred Lewis, or a raw but gifted minor league hurler, it may be worth the gamble.  It would be a tougher gamble if Crede was owed money beyond 08,   It would be a stupid gamble if it cost a real trade chip like Lowry or Sanchez. It would be short sided if we had anything in the farm at hot corner. But I couldn't care less if they dropped 5.1 mil in 08 dollars on Francis the Talking Mule., we aren't and we don't.  And please, before anyone says they  prefer a youth movement and mentions Leone, remember that Crede is a year younger than Leone.  

by prospecthound on Feb 20, 2008 8:15 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
The bigger point is that if Crede hits .260/.310/.510 in 2008, how much do the Giants benefit? They don't make the playoffs. The Giants shouldn't just give up trying to make the team better, but one-year rentals -- or extensions to injury-recovering thirty-somethings -- don't make sense for teams in the Giants' position.

It isn't worth giving up one of the three majors-ready players in the organization.

by Grant on Feb 20, 2008 9:02 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
He isn't thirty something, he's 29.  

by prospecthound on Feb 21, 2008 8:41 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: um...
I'm just glad I've pulled you this far into a diary discussion ;)

What if Crede actually becomes an average fielder and is relatively healthy? The Giants could sign him to a contract after this year (remember: assuming he plays average), and he could theoretically be part of getting the Giants to the World Series?

I realize they could also just keep Lewis and sign Crede after '08 if it's deemed he's worth it, but maybe he'd give them a hometown discount?

I can see your point and I don't necessarily disagree with it, but I also can see that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we gave up an OF that, IMHO, has less than the 20% chance you say of contributing to the next World Series Giants team, in order to upgrade the offense. Plus, giving up Freddy would mean not giving up Sanchez/Lowry, which is also a plus (I realize that doing it for that reason alone is moronic, but it's at least a silver lining).

Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 21, 2008 9:51 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Err, the year you picked
for Crede also happens to be the best year of his career as a full time starter.

His career OPS+ is 92. Year by year OPS+, since he became a full time starter, beginning 2003, 92, 83, 96, 107, 49.

Pedro Feliz' career OPS+ is 84.

Even if you disregard the 49, that's a well above average hitter as a 3b?

The upside to Crede is you get a player who is somewhat better than Pedro Feliz offensively, around 10-15 runs, slightly worse defensively, around 5 runs.

That is if Crede is healthy.

by rfloh on Feb 20, 2008 10:56 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Err, the year you picked
It was his most recent full year and his age 28 season.  That would appear to be a much more relevant benchmark than his age 24 or age 25 season.  

by prospecthound on Feb 21, 2008 8:31 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, it is the most relevant benchmark
It is still only 1 year. 1 year that is fairly significantly better than the rest of his career.

Using a simple 5-4-3 weighting, with 2006 getting a weighting of 5, 2005 a weighting of 4, 2004 a weighting of 3, he comes out to be around 3-4 runs below league average offensively.

A typical 3b is around league average or thereabouts.

by rfloh on Feb 21, 2008 8:58 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Err, the year you picked
The thing is, most players have their best years in their mid- to late 20s. Then they decline.

Last year's PECOTA cards are still up, so you can see the most likely path for Crede's future as of the spring of 2007, with no knowledge of the back problems or miserable hitting to come. In other words, this is the optimistic, full-recovery scenario. This projects him as a consistent .268/.325/.465 hitter from 2008-10.

Useful? Sure. Better than watching Rich Aurilia? Yeah. A difference-maker? Very unlikely. A long-term solution? No way.  

by Evan on Feb 21, 2008 9:27 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Err, the year you picked
No, I'm not going any further on this.  My heart wasn't in it to begin with and there's too many people willing to go the extra mile to argue that a guy who hit well as a 28 year old will never do so as a 30 year old.  But I am coming out of this wondering what move that is forseeable in the next three years could possibly come close to the expectations voiced as acceptable here. It has to be a 3B with good to very good defense, hit at least  OPS+ 110, do both at well under 30 years of age and presumably not cost us Caincecum in trade. It isn't going to come from the farm system, it isn't going to come from the draft next year, it certainly isn't coming from free agency. A trade that even includes Caincecum isn't all that likely to garner one of the 6 or 8 guys in MLB that fit this list. The only guy in the draft likely to project that way is never going to be available  as late as the 5th pick.  

by prospecthound on Feb 21, 2008 1:53 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Err, the year you picked
At this point, I think we'd all be pretty happy with a third baseman who seems likely to get better rather than worse over the next few years.

by Evan on Feb 21, 2008 1:59 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Err, the year you picked
Yeah, which is why we were so pro-Dallas McPherson.  Even if he failed, it was a smart risk to take and would have been an example of the kind of thinking process that could lead to having a winning team again.
Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 21, 2008 2:06 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Nice Aristocrats Reference
I like Fred Lewis as much as anyone here.

Here's what I don't understand, as much as I want to:

-Lewis/Davis are out of options.
-Sabes/Boch will never DFA a vet with a season on his contract when there's a glimmer of a chance (in their minds) he might have some savy left. That means Roberts stays.
-Lewis has a higher upside than Davis in terms of power.

Would people prefer to see Freddie go Stale on the bench? Would they prefer to see Rajai DFA'd, even though he's the only one with any change to get platoon time w/Roberts?

I don't have the answers. It hurts the head to know that they'd rather have Roberts play than Lewis, but the fact is they would.

This ramble is over. I don't think I made a point.

And Boom Goes the Dynamite

by Andy from DC on Feb 20, 2008 3:15 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
If Crede is considered a "potential long-term piece" at 3B, I have two questions (1) who the hell is making this determination, and (2) who's to blame for that?  The same person that's looking to do the ChiSox a favor and take him off their hands -- and throw in a decent player to boot.  Good times.

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Feb 20, 2008 3:38 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
Does anyone really give this article much merit?  It's the beginning of Spring Training for a team that has no realistic shot at competing.  It's nothing more than a writer trying to fill a few inches in the paper.  I will say, the use of "clutch" in that article made me sick though.

Anyway, I highly doubt Lewis will be dealt for Crede.  I doubt anyone of significance will be, actually.  I'm sure I'll look pretty dumb when Lowry is shipped off for him, but until then...

by One Flap Down on Feb 20, 2008 3:38 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
I take the article with SOME amount of concern. Baggarly is one of the better Giants beat writers, in my opinion. It's also not that outlandish because bringing in Crede fits the Giants M.O. for the last 10-ish years.

by xanthan on Feb 20, 2008 3:44 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
I understand that concern (Giants past M.O.) but I think it must be acknowledged that the Giants didn't really do anything this past off-season that would be considered in that mold.  

Omar was resigned, but of the SS options available in house and on the FA market, I don't consider this a bad move or screwing the team in the future.

Rowand was signed, but he is relatively young and productive.  Overpaid? Sure.  But I think that's going to have to happen for a year or two since competing wasn't an option.

No young players traded, young players actually given a chance to compete (for now, hopefully play), no terrible older player signed to a multi-year deal and Feliz gone!

I know Sabean made some bad moves in the past, but I think that came from the top and was the right strategy with the win-now ideal.  It worked for a few years, didn't for the past couple.  I think everyone is being too hard on Sabean right now.  (I can't believe you guys turned me into a Sabean apologist.  I hope you guys are ashamed of yourselves).

by One Flap Down on Feb 20, 2008 3:55 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

So basically...
I don't think Sabean did what he usually does.

Sure he did this which is like what he usually does.

And sure he did this which is like what he usually does.

But I don't think Sabean did what he usually does.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 20, 2008 10:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
I always thought all spring training articles were basically fluff, but everybody here seems indignant at them this year.  You'd think that if newspaper budgets were as tight as they supposedly are that dispatching reporters to get suntans in Arizona (or mosquito bites in Florida) wouldn't be too hard to dispense with.  The baseball fans here obviously wouldn't miss the coverage.
All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Feb 20, 2008 5:17 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Angry Blog Post
As things are now we have an excess of OFers. That we do because of the incompetence of the FO is moot. If we start the season with the team as it is now, we will have Nate in Fresno, Lewis on the bench, Davis (at best) with Roberts in a platoon, and Bengie Molina in the clean-up spot. At least with Crede, and I am not a fan of his, it pushes Molina out of the 4 spot in the order.

There is nothing that bothers me more right now than the prospect of Bengie batting clean-up.

I wish there were better options.

by marklar on Feb 20, 2008 3:38 PM PST   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
Crede has hit 4th  a grand total of 3 times in his carrer. ( http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsplit.cgi?n1=credejo01&year=00 ) Just  how does he push Monlina out of 4th?

by daveinexile on Feb 20, 2008 3:46 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
>> Just how does he push Monlina out of 4th?

Probably with both hands, but he should be careful, he might blow out his back again.

by xanthan on Feb 20, 2008 3:47 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

* golf clap*
A come along might be helpful as well.

by daveinexile on Feb 20, 2008 3:50 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

* golf clap*
A come-along chained to a D-9 in compound low, perhaps.

by Moggeee on Feb 20, 2008 6:14 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: * golf clap*
Only if the D-9 was dangling over a cliff behind a FB 111 in full afterburner.

by E Ticket on Feb 20, 2008 7:18 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
Bengie Molina has hit in the 4 spot a grand total of 13 times in his career. Do you really think Molina's 10 extra times means anything? Which would you rather have batting clean-up?

by marklar on Feb 20, 2008 4:01 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
I'm sure that Dave isn't exactly clamoring for either Bengie or Crede in the 4-spot.

by xanthan on Feb 20, 2008 4:03 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
Neither one is ideal, but what are the options? If it were up to me I would put Nate there, but that ain't gonna happen.

by marklar on Feb 20, 2008 4:07 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
With, or without, Crede on the roster I think we are truly looking at Winn, Molina & Rowand. Anything more then that is purely taking a flier. If taking a flier it might as well be based on who has a hot bat at the moment or who might be likely to grow into a more potent bat down the road.

As Xanthan stated I am not looking forward to Molina as a hart of the order bat. But there is some logic behind.(Weather I like or agree with the logic is a different story but the logic is there.) I just keep seeing this assumption that Crede can move directly into the hart of the order and I cringe because not enough people seem to be questioning the assumption.  

If one removes his career year he loses 71 P.A.`s out his career 152 P.A.`s out of the bottom of the order. The reason I mention this is if one wants to think his worst season is an aberration  then lessoning the value of his best season is an accepted way ( kicked out the highest & lowest value in a sample pool then use the remaining data) of gauging what is value might be. He is a huge risk in the hart of the order. A risk at least on the magnitude of trusting one of the younger guys.  

Rant over and please don't think its aimed at you for its not.

 

by daveinexile on Feb 22, 2008 12:28 PM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
I agree that Crede is not the guy you would normally want hitting clean-up. But management has already indicated that Molina will be our 4-spot hitter. There is nothing more disturbing to me about this team than Molina batting 4th. Especially since we are being fed the line about how we are going to win with speed and defense.

Speed and defense, and Molina batting clean-up, are contradictory. Essentially we are being told that the Giants will have an alternative approach to winning games; a non-traditional approach. And then they turn around and do the most traditional thing they can by batting Molina 4th.

If you are going to play small ball, why set up your line-up like you are still waiting for the 3-run homer? If you are playing small ball Crede, Schierholtz, Ortmeier, Rowand, or just about anybody on this team would be better in the clean-up spot than Molina.

So basically, all that I'm saying is, given the small ball approach, Crede would be preferred over Molina IMO. As I said in another post, if it were up to me I would put Nate there, but you and I both know that management isn't going to do that, and we will be lucky if Nate gets very many ABs as it is.

by marklar on Feb 25, 2008 8:45 AM PST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Crede hitting 4th?
We agree on our preference to Nate of either of these two.

 My question is what to does anyone see ( besides he is not Molina) that makes them think Crede is a better choice here?  Crede is not particularly fast ( the speed of Pedro to my eyes) though that is faster then the squatting glacier. Molina has 420 P.A's batting 5th in his career ( 303/340/ 496 - ba/opb/slg)  as opposed to Crede's  121 P.A.'s  batting 5th ( 319/355 /496 - ba/opb/slg ). ( Keep in mind 67 of these P.A's were in his career year so values are a bit higher as a result.)   Molina has 486 of his 3654 P.A.'s ( about 13%) above the 6th hole Crede has  152 of his 2637 P.A's  ( about  6%) above the 6th spot.  Is there anything, batting related,  someone can point to that is definitively in Crede's corner over Molina? I am more then wiling to change my stance if I can be shown were I missed some facts.

As for the line up it will be ugly. They just don't have the skill sets to do much more then half a line up in any fashion.  Which then l