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Around SBN: Dog Football! Which Breeds Are Best Suited For The Gridiron?

The S.S. Bad Lineup

The new rage - from the Chronicle to the New York Times - is the "OMG: Giants' Clubhouse Is Way Different and Better Without Bonds"-article. This brings us to story time. Gather around in a circle as I spin a short yarn. Milk and cookies are optional.

I once worked with the most unbearable person in the world. You can bring your contender to the table, but my guy wins. The National Salesman Anti-Defamation League's efforts are almost completely negated by this one man, who continually reinforces every awful stereotype laid upon salespeople. He dressed in million-dollar suits and had crazy-gel hair. He constantly winked. He would talk loudly on his cell phone about his weekend conquests. He would eat your lunch if you left it in the fridge and then lie about it. And if it meant a $25 commission, he would sell $40,000 worth of merchandise for $90,000 to someone who could only afford $1,000.

He was/is a truly awful man. Almost sociopathic, now that I think of it. He also had the best sales numbers the company had ever seen. It was fiscal paradise for the company while he was there.

He left to get into the mortgage business. I'm sure that's working out well for his clients right now. When he left, everyone celebrated. People thought his numbers were negated by the poor morale in his division. The company replaced him with a very pleasant guy who couldn't sell beer to a fraternity. Sales numbers plummeted. There was chaos. Regional managers took the fall, but only after the on-site managers went down in flames first.

This isn't an analogy. This is an anecdote. I've been sitting on it for a few years, waiting for just the right moment to relate it to Bonds. And I give this chummy-go-lucky clubhouse feeling about two months before the eventual anarchy sets in. This might be the worst lineup we'll see the Giants field in our lifetimes. About half of the lineup will have below-average numbers for a shortstop. The other half will probably hit like average to above-average shortstops. This is a lineup of shortstops. Except for the shortstop, that is, who's like a second pitcher. It's going to be ugly. Teams that lose ugly usually don't have great chemistry.

I hope I'm wrong. I really do. But I'm also really sick of the "Yay, Clubhouse Spirit!"-articles.

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Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Grant, you need to find the swagger.
So relax! Let's have some fun out here! This game's fun, OK? Fun goddamnit.

by ResDog on Feb 15, 2008 12:36 PM PST reply actions  

I found the swagger!

All it needs is an SF logo and change the person/face under the hat to one of our guys (I can DEFINITELY picture Timmeh or Omar)

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Feb 15, 2008 3:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I found the swagger!
Rowand should be under that for sure.

The guy even almost looks like him.*

*Not necessarily a fact

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 15, 2008 9:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I found the swagger!
You mean something like this (poor p-shop rendering)?

by notanotherPMLV on Feb 15, 2008 11:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Dude, don't lie, that is an analogy. Why, I bet the "very pleasant guy" who replaced the jerk also had exceptional speed and defense for a salesman.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 15, 2008 12:38 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
He did back his car into a parking lot wall, now that you mention it.

by Grant Brisbee on Feb 15, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
That guy's a total gamer. Er, I mean, ummm... sales-er...?
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 15, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I also have a story that relates to Bonds. I'll probably just leave you guys hanging on it, though.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 15, 2008 12:41 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
So you have a historically bad collection of hitting talent all gathering around talking about wonderful it is that one of the greatest hitters in history is no longer on the team.

Gamers: Players who don't mind losing as long as they are more comfortable in the clubhouse.

by mxmob33 on Feb 15, 2008 12:54 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I had started to drink to kool-aid and convince myself that maybe I could believe the "Bond's high OBP ans slow speed clogged the bases, now we'll be moving runners along nicely."

...Then I saw that Molina really was going to be our 4 spot hitter. This whole off season I thought that had just been a joke.

by Scottsdale on Feb 15, 2008 12:54 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I'm with Scottsdale, I don't think I am ready for reality yet.  On flip side considering that my expectations for this team aren't that high, I think I'll be fine with the losses, but I expect a lineup with at least two or three of our average-at-best prospects starting and stinking up the joint.  At least I can tell other fans that it's OK because we are rebuilding.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Feb 15, 2008 1:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
One ticket please!  What do you mean they aren't selling tickets to that show?

by daveinexile on Feb 16, 2008 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I've still got my fingers in my ears on that one. There's no way they can go through with batting Molina cleanup. Bochy will come to his senses by the end of spring training.

Or maybe it's just his way of saying to Sabean, "Get me some real hitters, dammit!"

by Evan on Feb 15, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
This post was a reality check.  This is the worst lineup ever in my lifetime, and I have seen some bad ones.  

Maybe your old boss is with the company that boasts of being "nice people, too"?  Gotta love the KNBR ads.  

by out machine on Feb 15, 2008 1:06 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I think the '85 team has the "worst lineup of our lifetime" crown well in hand. (If you're unfortunate enough to include 1985 within your lifetime, I mean.)

To be even worse (relative to league average) than the '85 team, the Giants would have to score 40 runs fewer than last year. Unless Winn and Rowand collide in the outfield and knock each other out for a couple of months, I don't think they can do it.

by Evan on Feb 15, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I was born in March 1985... I'm not sure how these qualifications work. Does it still count if I was just learning to hold my head up on my own for the first time by the time the season ended?
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 15, 2008 1:40 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Hell yeah! Anyway, the rest of us spent that summer walking around with our heads down.

by Evan on Feb 15, 2008 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
That's probably why I forgot about that team.  I think I blocked it from memory.  

by out machine on Feb 15, 2008 1:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
The '85 team actually had a halfway decent lineup; problem was, practically everyone had dreadful years. Brenly hit .220, Leonard hit .241, Gladden hit .243. Chili Davis was on that team; so was Chris Brown, who was actually OK. Same nucleus was there in '86, and that team was good.
No way that bunch sucked anywhere near as bad as this one will.

 

Twenty-seven years of waiting has come to an end.

by trapper9 on Feb 15, 2008 9:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I kinda liked Frank Williams.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I dunno - I think they can. Vizquel/Durham/Roberts are not likely to be much better, and Bonds had about 97 RC last year. I have faith in this team to be awful enough  to pull the feat of.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Feb 15, 2008 2:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
The '85 team had one of the largest aggregates of disappointments in Giants history (Mark Davis, David Greene, Chris Brown) and my all-time, most disliked player Johnny-how-the-hell-can-you-call-yourself-major- league?-LeMaster). I think this year's team will be less disappointing. Not better. We're just expecting less.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
640 runs sounds like a lot for this team. We lost the 170 OPS+ with Bonds, and we're giving Klesko's PA's to Ortmeier. We might even have trouble replacing Feliz's bat.
I wanted to mention how hard it'll be to keep the team as healthy as it was last year, but injuries to half of our players won't hurt our offense.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 15, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
We might even have trouble replacing Feliz's bat.

That is, without any doubt, the saddest thing I have heard in my life.

You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Feb 15, 2008 2:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
You don't think they can do it? They already did!

OPS+:
1985 - 89
2007 - 89

HR:
1985 - 115, 8th of 12
2007 - 131, 14th of 16

Runs:
1985 - 556, 12th of 12
2007 - 683, 15th of 16

BA/OBP/SLG:
1985 - 12th/12th/11th
2007 - 14th/14th/16th

Park Factor:
1985 - 92 (favors pitchers)
2007 - 100 (neutral)

The 2007 team ran a whole lot better, but really, there's no way you can convince me that the 2007 team was superior, given park and league context, to the 1985 team. We are about to witness the worst offense of our lifetimes.

What kills me, right now, is that there's blurb after blurb (on espn.com, etc.) about how historically bad the Giants' offense will be, and not one freaking mention (like in the last eight years) of how the 2000 Giants had perhaps the best offense of the past thirty years.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2000.shtml

I know it's not topical now, but man, that team went down the memory hole. .278/.362/.472 in an extreme pitchers' park! That team had better collective numbers, including pitchers, than our best freaking hitter has in his career!

I'm going to go cry now. Again.

Proud member of the Adopt-a-Giant program (Aaron Rowand)

by antinous on Feb 15, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
You have a point about the park factors. 92 is low, though -- per bbref, the Candlestick park factor in the mid-80s was around 95. Bump up the '85 team's runs by 5% and they almost catch up to the 2007 team. But not quite.

by Evan on Feb 15, 2008 2:56 PM PST up reply actions  

That '85 team was beyond wretched
They hit .233 as a team.  I distinctly remember that average being .217 at some point well into the season, like around June or so.

Look at these pitching lines:

Dave LaPoint:  7-17, 3.57
Atlee Hammaker:  5-12, 3.74
Mike Krukow:  8-11, 3.38
Bill Laskey:  5-11, 3.55
Jim Gott:  7-10, 3.88

Sure, ERAs were generally lower then, but still, geez Louise, it's like they had a whole rotation of Matt Cains.

Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Feb 15, 2008 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

More on '85
Roger Mason put up a 2.12 ERA in five starts - and lost three of them.

Mark Davis sported a 3.54 as a reliever - and went 5-12.

The team ERA was 3.61, good for 6th best in the league, and the staff was was 2nd in the league in strikeouts.

Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Feb 15, 2008 3:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
The good news about this the 85 team grew into the 86 thru 89 teams which had four winning seasons, 2 NL West Championships and one World Series appearance.  

by giantsrainman on Feb 15, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Right now, as things are, I'd rather have the talented young pitching and the terrible line-up with a few rooks who could help it.  A putrid franchise like Tampa and some of the gawd awful Phillies, Royals, Reds, Pirates, etc. teams have sucked because of no decent pitching.  We have some complements, but no superstar bats.  It's all about finding that team or two that has to slash and burn and make their GM the goat for Sharlon Schoop and some garlic fries.  
it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Feb 15, 2008 7:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Grant,
Your story brought back lots of memories.  By the way, I was only winking at you.

Love ya baby!

G

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 15, 2008 1:10 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Think of the lot of the lowly baseball beat writer:

"John, I need you to get me a 1500-word article about the Giants' prospects for the year. I need it by Sunday night. Make it positive."

"But, sir, they're going to suck."

"I know that, and you know that, but we have to try to at least appear supportive. Remember. Circulation. Job security. Got it?"

"Ohhh-kay. Well, my understanding is that Bengie Molina is going to be their fourth-place hit---"

"What?!?!? Molina? Cleanup? He runs like Stephen Hawking! All right. Just come up with a good angle."

Man. Tough job...

The Johnnie LeMaster fan club vice-president. E6 Forever!

by Van Smack on Feb 15, 2008 1:20 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
God, I KNOW RIGHT? Are we going to have to endure BS articles like this all March? I mean I think there's an article about how the Giants are happy they have ~Bengie Molina~ to be the clean up hitter. Who the hell is going to believe that? Spring training is supposed to be happy but every article I can find is all this warrior spirit, swagger, we're so happy Barry's gone!!! BS and it's kind of aggravating. I mean, I'm not expecting them to throw in the towel in February (no matter how realistic I might think that to be) but honestly, write about something else. There is plenty to talk about. Even if it's Cain and Lincecum puff pieces over and over again.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 15, 2008 1:21 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
We don't need home runs either, stupid home runs!

by xanthan on Feb 15, 2008 1:33 PM PST reply actions  

winning is the best medicine
From 1997-2004 Barry Bonds was still a total jerk, but the team won because it had good players. Those teams had great chemistry, right?

Baseball teams win because they have people who are good at playing baseball. As a fan, that's all I ask for. Bonds was the best, but got too old and too injured and team management thought that meant it needed to add more players who were too old and too injured to be good at playing baseball. that's why they lost. They didn't lose because all of a sudden Bonds became a jerk.

Of course, remove Bonds from the team and its a different team. Duh! The Giants are also different because Feliz is gone. Where are those articles? Hey, news flash: Different players, different team!

Baseball writers write this crap because they aren't intelligent enough to come up with anything interesting to say.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 15, 2008 1:46 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
And here I thought we'd be bitching about Zito getting the Opening Day Starter role.

I got my priorities all outta whack.

by lrs77 on Feb 15, 2008 1:55 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I've got another story...and this one's about the Giants.  The 2007 New York Giants.

They lose the NFC's best RB -- a Negative-Nancy, egomaniac coach-basher -- to retirement, and their hot-shot TE -- who happens to be a key offensive contributor and major locker room distraction -- goes down with an injury 3/4 through the season.  One might say that their team would struggle.  Not so.  They proceed to steam-roll their opponents all winter long, using determination and a new-found confidence, until they bully the New England Bullies to complete their champoinship run and polish off a season for the ages.

Couldn't that be us?

Just kidding, we're gonna suck.

Giants = Jack Crap.

by Woody Wins on Feb 15, 2008 2:00 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Yeah, that 2007 team actually replaced the production of the players they lost. Which is to say that their personnel was already in a position after 2006 to replace the production of those players if they weren't with the team in 2007. Which is to say, the planned ahead and were prepared. I mean, they didn't even sign like 8 centers for their offensive line.

These two stories are significantly different.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 15, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions  

There is just no news...
These guys are sent to spring training to write about something... right now there is nothing else to write about.  I've heard Cain loves Zito, Lowry is doing fine, and little else.  

We've heard all offseason about the lack of hitting, so we can't really just keep talking about THAT.  Just give it a few days.  

I miss Wendell Kim's sprinting to 3rd base.

by hummbaby on Feb 15, 2008 2:29 PM PST reply actions  

A Lineup of shortstops?
I thought we were going with a lineup of center fielders?
You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Feb 15, 2008 2:50 PM PST reply actions  

Re: A Lineup of shortstops?
A lineup of centerfielders who hit like shortstops, if those shortstops weren't very good hitters.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 15, 2008 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
What ever happened to the front office looking into a Brandon Inge trade? Or is his contract just too much to take on?
A SF Giant fan living inn Dodger country =(

by Pasadena Giant on Feb 15, 2008 4:26 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Inge lacks warrior spirit, and couldn't find the swagger with a map.

Also, he's not a good hitter.

2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Feb 15, 2008 4:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Hell with that. What ever happened to the front office looking into hari kari?

by E Ticket on Feb 15, 2008 7:31 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Hari Kari
Maybe she is film the next season of "Celebrity Rehab" right now?

by daveinexile on Feb 16, 2008 8:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Please do not mention Inge! (Sabes might be listening.) We have enough pathetic hitters already. He's not better than Kevin or Richie (for a year), and he's DEFINITELY not better than Bengie, Eliezer or Guillermo.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:21 PM PST up reply actions  

STOP THE PRESSES!
The starting rotation is now all wearing stirrups as a sign of unity.

OMG DRESSING CODES WILL MAKE ALL TEH DIFFERENCES!!1!

Ugh.

You know you suck when entire articles are being written about attire.

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by JT Jordan on Feb 15, 2008 5:04 PM PST reply actions  

Re: STOP THE PRESSES!
While this is as you say, I would like to just state that I heavily endorse any and all wearing of high socks.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 15, 2008 5:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: STOP THE PRESSES!
Agreed.

I'm a full fledged high sock supporter. I know that Sanchez and Zito wear them. Did Lincecum wear them last year occasionally? Or is that just my bad memory?

High socks = awesome.

by xanthan on Feb 15, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: STOP THE PRESSES!
Yeah, Timmy wore them sometimes (including the monster game against the Dbacks!) My current desktop picture is actually one of Tim from the Giants Spring Training blog last year and he's got the socks up.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 15, 2008 7:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: STOP THE PRESSES!
I got hooted out of my beer league for wearing high socks.

The pain still lingers. Lucky there was plenty of Budwieser.

by Moggeee on Feb 16, 2008 1:15 AM PST up reply actions  

I've always liked the high sock as well.
Whenever designing a player for a game I'd put him in high socks.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 15, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: STOP THE PRESSES!
I support the hi-socks as well.
Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Feb 16, 2008 4:38 PM PST up reply actions  

I wasn't going to comment on that story...
Until son of riles' diary.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 15, 2008 7:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I wasn't going to comment on that story...
Things aren't rosy down here for the Padres either.  Their flagship station is already shoveling the manure with the rehashed bit piece, "the Padres are counting on B.Giles to come back and spark the line-up this season (for the trillionth time)".  

We have a better OF that SD unless they put Antonelli in there.  And we need to rob them of Blanks or Huffman before Alderson tells that retard Towers how to do his job again.

it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Feb 15, 2008 9:25 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I wasn't going to comment on that story...
Clarification: Antonelli goes to 2B and Kouzmanoff is moved to the outfield, making it better.  The talking heads down here think putting Kouzmanoff in LF is akin to teaching him how to be a neurosurgeon.
it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Feb 15, 2008 9:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I wasn't going to comment on that story...
Headley's the one moving to LF, Kouzmanoff doesn't have the range, apparently, and Headley's got some good instincts out there.
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by JT Jordan on Feb 16, 2008 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: I wasn't going to comment on that story...
There are concerns about Kouzmanoff staying at 3B because his glove isn't up to snuff.  LF in Petco isn't a hazardous assignment and the quicker Headley and Antonelli develop, the better the Padres will be (makes me sick to say that).  Suffice to say, whenever both Giles and Edmonds land on the DL at the same time, the issue will force itself on them.
it's always noonan somewhere

by sectionop92 on Feb 16, 2008 8:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I wasn't going to comment on that story...
Okay, while that may be true, I'm just saying that the Padres are trying Headley in LF and not Kouzmanoff.
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by JT Jordan on Feb 17, 2008 9:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I just cannot imagine Molina starting the season in the cleanup spot. I'll just go out on a limb and say that isn't going to happen. The Giants will acquire someone to play third base - either Crede or Chavez, and that new guy will bat cleanup. If both are crap in spring, or both are hurt, the Giants will go after a firstbasemen. And yes, this offense will be better than the one in '85.

Molina WILL NOT be the cleanup hitter come opening day! It's not going to happen. Everyone say it! Manifest that reality!

by RUSirius on Feb 15, 2008 5:54 PM PST reply actions  

Of course Molina will be the cleanup hitter
RUSirius?
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 15, 2008 7:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Of course Molina will be the cleanup hitter
Sometimes.

Seriously, a Crede deal seems very possible, and then there's your cleanup man. Chavez seems like a player Sabean would go for, it would just depend on who was offered, but I doubt it will come to that.

by RUSirius on Feb 15, 2008 8:33 PM PST up reply actions  

I think a Crede deal...
Will only be done if both Durham and Aurilia really die during Spring Training.  I don't think both of them can do it.  Last year..

Durham 638 OPS, 781 STOPS (I like that abbrev.)

Aurilia 672 OPS, 850 STOPS

Unless they OPS like they did in the regular season I think it'll be Durham 2B/Frandsen 3B or Frandsen 2B/Aurilia 3B.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 15, 2008 8:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I think a Crede deal...
And I am still of the hope that Crede is part of a bigger Chisox deal, because:
(1) Molina can not bat fourth -- if only because he'll clog the basepaths;
(2) Crede is not a #4 hitter, he is a #6 or #7.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I think a Crede deal...
Molina will clog the basepaths no matter where you put him in the lineup.  It's not like our #5 and 6 hitters are going to drive in that many runs than our #7 and 8 hitters.

I hope we don't get a "bigger Chisox deal," because:
(1) It's not going to help us win anything next year unless..
(2) We trade away Cain/Lincecum.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 16, 2008 11:13 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I think a Crede deal...
I disagree. I think we CAN make progress this year without trading our blue chips, and I am not so down on Bengie. He hits in the clutch, he handles the pitchers well. Unfortunately he is a slug on the basepaths, so he has to bat 6th or lower to allow us to use our speed.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 17, 2008 7:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I think a Crede deal...
You can't really clog the bases if you're not getting on them.

by chefasaurus on Feb 17, 2008 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Of course Molina will be the cleanup hitter
I don't recall Crede being a clean up hitter. Konerko and Thome, among others, batted in front of him in Chicago.

by KCDrummer82 on Feb 18, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Batting Crede clean up...
  You are aware Crede has a   stunning grand  total  of 152 Plate Appearances  above the 6 hole? Out of 2637 career Plate Appearances  that means he has been a bottom of the order hitter 94% of career.   So either he has been proven to be only a bottom of the order hitter or the team is running a grand experiment by batting him in the Hart of the order.

  Molinia has 486 P.A's above the 6th hole  out of a career 3654 P.A.'s. That comes out to 87% of his P.A.'s  were bottom of the order.  So Molina has  a better track record and thus a better  ( though not good) bet to handle a hart of the order spot.

Given this is an organization that highly values experience what makes you think Crede, if obtained, automatically replaces Molina when they are on the field at the same time?

by daveinexile on Feb 16, 2008 9:11 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I request surreality.
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Feb 15, 2008 6:18 PM PST reply actions  

Quote of Year so far
"Bochy has expressed his desire for a grittier team, and Walker believes that something as simple as the stretching rule can help."

Totally LMAO.  More Grit?  Rooster Cogburn died almost thirty years ago, and Thighler evidently thinks the stretching rule is the distance between the KFC talking menu and the pick-up window.

You know why Thighler is a big fan of Rowand?

"... He was known as a unifier in Chicago and Philadelphia, a guy who would invite 15 teammates to dinner and pick up the tab."

Now he can just take out Thighler. He'll still have to pick up 15 tabs.

by E Ticket on Feb 15, 2008 7:24 PM PST reply actions  

Totally awesome Warrior Spirit
"Rowand showed up at Scottsdale Stadium on Monday, eight days before position players were required to report, and immediately set about recruiting teammates for his weekly bowling league."

by E Ticket on Feb 15, 2008 7:41 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Totally awesome Warrior Spirit
Wait, I'm a really good bowler. I think this means I can sneak in as a utility player...let's review my qualifications...

Age: 42 (a tad old, but still, it'll make Omar feel young and spry)
Warrior spirit: Yes. Had an impassioned shouting match during a pick-up basketball game on Wednessday.
Gamer: Yes. Played in a softball playoff game with a torn groin--against medical advice! See, aren't I gritty?
Defense: Excellent (for a 42-year-old with a bum shoulder)
Ability to do the little things: Excellent bunter
Hitting ability: Frightfully little

Call Sabean and Rowland...I'm in! And I'll remember the little people once I make it (:

I got one word for you: "youneverknow"

by senorvegas on Feb 15, 2008 8:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I've got a guy at work just like that. I won't share more, though, because he knows how to use the Internet.

by Dan from NM on Feb 15, 2008 10:33 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I really enjoy Kruk and Kuip, but I swear if Krukow pulls the everything is rosy and upbeat in the clubhouse I will indeed vomit.  Play the vets we suck, play the kids we suck.  Time people, time is the only answer.

by drysdalecousin on Feb 15, 2008 10:46 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Time has come today
Young prospects can come and play
Can't put it off another day
I don't care what others say
They say Sabean doesn't listen anyway
Time has come today

Oh
The rules have changed today (Hey)
I have no place to stay (Hey)
I'm thinking about the subway (Hey)
My love has flown away (Hey)
My tears have come and gone (Hey)
Oh my Lord, I have to roam (Hey)
I have no home (Hey)
I have no home (Hey)

(LOLing while envisioning BB)

Now the time has come (Time)
There's no place to run (Time)
I might get burned up by the sun (Time)
But I had my fun (2002)
I've been loved and put aside (Time)
I've been crushed by the tumbling tide (Time)
And my soul has been psychedelicized (Time)

Yeah , and pills alone ain't workin'.
Hope you've got a full fridge , Boozer...

NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Feb 18, 2008 9:15 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Big Country eh?
Good taste in my opinion. Which is badly a bad sign for you.

by daveinexile on Feb 18, 2008 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Does this make anyone else feel bad about wanting Bonds gone? I mean, if the season's probably going down the tubes by May anyway, why not have the Bonds  circus around for his 3000th hit and 3000th RBI?

by baetown415 on Feb 15, 2008 10:54 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
If he got his 3000th RBI this year, the Giants would probably be a pretty good team.
Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 15, 2008 11:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Some of us actually didn't ever want Bonds gone, so nope I don't feel bad at all.

With the trial it's actually better that he's not around, but all other things being equal he would have easily been the best offseason signing we could have made. Though with the Rowand signing it still would have been slight OF overkill.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 16, 2008 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I still have this daydream that Winn and Roberts get traded by the deadline and that Bonds' indictment is ended Mayish.  The Giants bring him back to fill out the outfield (and the "put butts in the seats") after Rowand tries to run through a wall in July.  Then we get to watch Schierholtz find his power stroke, Lewis hits his stride and Raj steal 30 bags in two months.

by kennv on Feb 16, 2008 2:24 PM PST up reply actions  

What? You want to root for last years team??!??!
I just have one note.  This team may suck, it might be a major story (like the D-Backs last year), but it will probably be pretty sucky to average, but you know what??  This team will be easy to root for and I will enjoy being a fan again.  I won't have to defend my team against defensless actions and I will have no problem rooting for Orty and Fransy and Rowly and Credy and the high socks crew and the Tommy John crew (how many of those guys are there?  like 6???) Anyway, I will enjoy rooting for the underdogs and maybe some magic will happen.  Hummmmmm BABY!

by Make me an Offer on Feb 15, 2008 10:58 PM PST reply actions  

Re: What?
Here's my best offer: 61-101.

by Moggeee on Feb 16, 2008 1:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: What?
Hey, we're close. I'm thinkin' 59-102 (with a rain out not -- mercifully -- rescheduled)
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:32 PM PST up reply actions  

I want to root for last years team.
Defend my team against defenseless actions? I find that to be a load of crap. The actions might have been defenseless, but if we have to defend our team against them then any fan playing that card has to make equal defenses for their shitty team.

I assume you're talking about Barry and steroids, by the way.

I'll enjoy rooting for Frandsen and Ortmeier and (ugh) Rowand (certainly NOT Crede, though), and Lewis and Davis when they get to play, and even Aurilia and Vizquel, and definitely definitely the pitchers. But I can't tell you with a straight face that I'll enjoy any of it anywhere near as much as I enjoyed watching even a crippled, nationally crucified Barry Bonds play.

Though I'm pretty close with Cain. Hot damn I like that guy.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 16, 2008 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: I want to root for last years team.
YM "Lewy" and "Davy"

HTH

There are not enough characters to say what happened here. I'm lucky to be here and looking forward to Giants baseball ... that's all I can say.

by tk on Feb 16, 2008 1:58 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: I want to root for last years team.
Lewy, Davy, Vizzy, Richy, Cainy, Lincy, Winny, Rowwy, Moliny, Frandsy (or, Kevvy), Orty, Bochy.

From now on I resolve that my fuzzy feelings will always be accompanied by the shameless cutification of somebody's name.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 17, 2008 12:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: I want to root for last years team.
Dammit, Howie, I saw him first. >:(
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 16, 2008 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

I'm a happy spectator!
As long as I can watch from a distance, you can have him. 90% of the pleasure I take out of this world is voyeuristic anyway, so I don't see why this needs to be an exception.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 17, 2008 12:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
oh yeah, and this doesn't make much sense either.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/15/SPC6V3GEN.DTL

Let's start Zito on Opening Day so Lowry, not Lincecum, can be slotted as the #3 pitcher. Meaning Zito-Cain-Lowry-Lincecum-Correia/Sanchez looks better than Cain-Zito-Lincecum-Lowry-Correia/Sanchez.
Actually, that might only be a few more wins this season where the Giants look like they'll end up 20  games out. so whatever

by baetown415 on Feb 15, 2008 11:00 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Actually, matching Timmy against the other team's #4 starter would appear to give the Giants an advantage in those games..........at least until the bottom of the 1st when the Giant hitters have to do their thing.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???

by oldrips on Feb 16, 2008 8:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Well, yes and no.  

If they don't write the "we are family" stories, the only other story is "07 Giants - Bonds - Feliz + Rowand = 76 Buccaneers x 92 Sharks.  And they can't do that.

I agree that if the team wins no one cares how many fights Bonds and Jeff Kent get into, etc.  OTOH, given that the Bonds era produced a total of 0 World Series rings (poor Greg Anderson, to whom Barry made the Giants promise to supply one) maybe a different left fielder would have been less of a "de-motivational plaque" in the clubhouse.  I'm sure no one here will ever agree with that, but the proof's on the flagpoles in the outfield.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Feb 16, 2008 5:59 AM PST reply actions  

They can focus on Matt Cain
Point out that at age 22, going on 23, about the same age as many other highly touted pitching prospects, he is already established as a very good MLB pitcher.

Write "off the field" stories about Cains' taste in music, movies, food, etc.

They can focus on the fact that the Giants will have a full season of Tim Lincecum. Point to his sensational numbers from the minors. Point at the fact that in his rookie year, he was already a good pitcher. Point at his K rate. Gush about his stuff.

Write "off the field" stories about Lincecum.

Or would that make Sabean look like an idiot, since he considered trading Lincecum for Alex Rios?

The Willie Mays era also produced 0 WS rings. Maybe this says something about the entire Bonds family? Or not.

by rfloh on Feb 16, 2008 6:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: They can focus on Matt Cain
Matt Cain's record was 7-16 last year, so it's a bit tough to sell that.  I saw the games and realize that the record lies, but sportswriters don't care and the average Chronicle reader won't remember.

Willie Mays played in three world series as a Giant including 1954, which they won.  I think he made a good catch in one game too. I don't believe he is related to the Bonds' by blood.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Feb 16, 2008 9:04 AM PST up reply actions  

Meant Mays as a SF Giant
Yeah, I know that Bonds is not related to Mays by blood. I was just trying to snark.

They could point to Cain's ERA. That's the record too. ERA is not some new fangled complex stat.

They could point to the fact that Cain is the SAME AGE, a few months younger actually, than the highly touted Clay Buchholz. They could point to the fact that Cain is only 1 year older than the highly touted Phil Hughes. They could point out that Cain is only 1 year older than the highly touted Joba Chamberlain.

They could point out that Cain's MLB record dwarfs the MLB record of all these highly touted prospects combined.

by rfloh on Feb 16, 2008 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
"OTOH, given that the Bonds era produced a total of 0 World Series rings (poor Greg Anderson, to whom Barry made the Giants promise to supply one) maybe a different left fielder would have been less of a "de-motivational plaque" in the clubhouse."

---------------------------------------------

How would that work?  Exactly?  

By that illogic, the Giants should never have had Willie Mays on the team.  MSM constantly carped at his "hot dogging" style.  Same with McCovey. His running style was alluded to as "lazy" by MSM.  

That the Giants never won a world series because the most dominant player of the modern era kicked other teams' ass, but was not nice to MSM in the locker room all of the time?

A lot of superstars are prima donnas. This society grants that status to entertainers, media celebrities and politicians all the time; with the collaboration of, if not the very creation by, the exact same assholes in MSM that bitch and moan about Bonds and other celebrities in the first place.

You think that little cunt Mark Wada would have an ESPN gig if not for the granting of prima donna status on Barry Bonds by the same MSM asses from which he has been excreted?  You think his own mincing quasi-celebrity fifteen-minutes-of-fame would have been conferred if he wrote an "expose" on Alex Sanchez?  

You think they would keep up their lying and misrepresentation and non-contextualizing if the typical thought-retarded sports fans who willingly allow their prejudices to be manipulated by the MSM would finally grow some spine and brain cells and actually question the motives of people who make a living scandalizing other humans? And buy the sophistry of "clubhouse chemistry" from a MSM mouthpiece?

No. They would be out the door and down the road. But its guys like you who never challenge the veracity of MSM opinions created by people who have agendas that are other than honorable.

The MSM has been leading you around by your pubes and your opinions show it.

by E Ticket on Feb 16, 2008 11:08 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Thank you, that was refreshing.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Yeahhhhh, Wes. Refreshing.

Like the way a hurricane blows your roof off is refreshing.

by Moggeee on Feb 16, 2008 10:30 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
DOWN GOES FRAZIAH!
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Feb 18, 2008 9:24 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Are you really suggesting the Giants would have been better off without the single most dominant force (by a huge margin) in major league baseball?  Because if you are, then I'd venture to guess that our perspectives are so far apart as to be irreconcilable.

And the flagpoles are proof of something, alright.  It just has nothing to do with Bonds.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Feb 16, 2008 12:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
No, just suggesting that they didn't win a WS with the single most dominant force in baseball. And yes, I realize he didn't give the ball to Ortiz or start in Game 7 (although he probably could have pitched a better 2 innings than Leave-on).  It takes many Giants to not win a WS.  I'm looking forward to seeing how many it takes to win one, hopefully within my lifetime.  I don't disagree with the math of everyone here that thinks the "good vibrations" in the clubhouse don't make up for 40+ HR from the leftfielder, but I do recognize there's going to be some better feng shui from moving the recliner, anyway. They can't finish worst than last, so if feng shui gets them to 3rd with this roster maybe that's all there is to get this season.
All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Feb 16, 2008 5:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Tyler looks like he's in the best shape of his life!

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 16, 2008 1:27 PM PST reply actions  

CAPTION!
"Come on Tyler..you know I remember 15 seconds ago when we were inside that shirt was light grey.  You should really get that sweating problem checked out."
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 16, 2008 11:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: CAPTION!
"You ate your way out of a bucket of chicken that came up to HERE?"
NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Feb 18, 2008 9:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Pulling out all the stops, and the jersey
Hey, Tyler -- During your windup, if you pull your shirt up to here, your big. gleaming white gut can temporarily blind the hitter.

by Moggeee on Feb 18, 2008 11:13 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
PUUUUUUUUHleeeeze tell me that photo is from 2005

by E Ticket on Feb 17, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
And Rags is practicing for his part on the New Beverly Hillbillies.
Don't believe everything you think.

by wcovington on Feb 16, 2008 3:39 PM PST reply actions  

Let's collect one-liners about salesmen
I'll start.

"He was voted most likely to sell his mother if marginal revenue exceeded marginal cost."

by achiappanza on Feb 17, 2008 1:03 AM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
"OMG: Giants' Clubhouse Is Way Different and Better Without Bonds"

Fantastic!  Maybe this year they won't bother playing baseball and just focus on a reality TV series.

by blank on Feb 17, 2008 9:12 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I think the biggest fluke of 2007 was Dan Ortmeier, who I believe will be this year's disappointment (along with Eugenio Velez, should Velez make the team).

I think this year's big increase will come from Ray Durham -- in great part because he has the most room to rebound.

Incidentally, my second choice for 2007 would have been Guillermo Rodriguez, who while he didn't hit all that well, probably hit at the top of reasonable exectations for his performance.

Rich Aurilia would be my second choice for 2008.  Most of the Giants' young players last season hit as well as would be expected or even better.

by sharksrog on Feb 19, 2008 1:00 PM PST reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
Oh, and Freddie Lewis would be a 2007 candidate, as well.

by sharksrog on Feb 19, 2008 1:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The S.S. Bad Lineup
I think you posted this in the wrong thread.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 19, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions  

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