B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
A little bit of bashing from some people who know stuff about baseball:
Winter grade: FThey took a 71-91 team and replaced its best position player with a guy coming off a career year who's had two above-average seasons in his life. For $60 million. Good luck with that.
NRI to watch: They signed Scott Williamson the other day. Williamson hasn't been able to keep his arm attached to his body for more than about 20 pitches, but when healthy, he's generally missed bats and been tough on righties. It's a fairly weak group of NRIs. Then again, it's a fairly weak crop of RIs, too.
Job battle to track: Fred Lewis versus a whole bunch of guys he's better than for playing time on the outfield corners. Lewis is more or less what Randy Winn was back when Winn was good, yet has struggled to impress the Giants, who seem to always find a Rajai Davis or a Dan Ortmeier or Nate Schierholtz to block him. Maybe this is the year.
One move to make: Release half the roster. And the general manager. Brian Sabean is just the wrong guy for the kind of things the Giants need to do right now. They need to start completely from scratch, lose badly for a few years, and come out on the other side in 2011 or so. Sabean is better at running a contender, something he did for years during the Bonds Era.
We're about to find out if all those people were coming to Pac Bell Park because it was so pretty there, or if it was the Giants as a team, or if maybe it was the left fielder. The Giants haven't started a year without Bonds since 1992. They went 72-90 that season, which seems a pretty good guess as to their record in 2008. Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum, two of the most exciting pitchers in baseball, are all that separates this team from much uglier embarrassment.
Thanks for rubbing our faces in it BP jerks. Interesting to note that they like Fred Lewis so much. I like him too.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by KCE on Feb 13, 2008 1:38 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by fwoty oz on Feb 13, 2008 1:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
I mean, I like Lewis as much as the next guy, and more than many (he has one damn winning smile) but I thought my "AAAA" assessment was giving him a lot of credit.
Wow.
He does have a great approach at the plate, though, and looks awesome when he's on a roll. If not for the gaping holes in his swing and the complete power deficit I'd be extremely high on him.
by howtheyscored on Feb 13, 2008 1:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
Winn is a good comp for what we hope Lewis could be, but look at their minor-league numbers and it's clear that Winn had accomplished a hell of a lot more by age 27 than Lewis has. And he's a better fielder as well.
by Evan on Feb 13, 2008 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
The BP guys are bitter, sarcastic Giants haters. Oh, and they are completely right most of the time.
I suspect that PECOTA has barfed up something on Lewis.. but I stopped subscribing a couple years back because I thought you could 80% of the value for the price of zero. Or it could just be that they like guys who can take a walk in the minors.
Oh, and Randy has had 2 good years, 2005 and 2002. Neither of which were in the last 2 years.
by zenbitz on Feb 13, 2008 2:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Fred Lewis...really?
Further proof of the increasing irrelevance of BP.
by kenshin1 on Feb 13, 2008 2:47 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Fred Lewis...really?
by Poe on Feb 13, 2008 11:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Fred Lewis...really?
- hardball times (I don't think its even that close)
- baseball musings
- the book blog
- ussmariners
by kenshin1 on Feb 14, 2008 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Fred Lewis...really?
(oh yeah, whoreage)
Just kidding, I also think Baseball Think Factory has some really cool stuff going for it. ZiPS projections, Chris Dial's defensive work, and other interesting articles.
THT is great though, I just picked up their 2008 Annual but haven't had time to go through it yet. Looking forward to when I can.
by xanthan on Feb 14, 2008 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
Aside from that? We took no risks this offseason and ended up worse. We came damn near to trading away our most promising player, and signed an over-rated centerfielder in an already over-crowded outfield. We allegedly turned down a Lowry-Milledge swap, failed to take a flier on anyone off of waivers or low-risk minor league deals, didn't trade away Roberts, and are going into spring training with giant question marks at first and third. Giving us an F is being kind.
by MidKnight on Feb 13, 2008 3:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
No, actually, the Giants always seem to find guys like Randy Winn, Dave Roberts or Aaron Rowand to block Lewis.
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 13, 2008 3:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by boonitez on Feb 13, 2008 4:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by Viliphied on Feb 13, 2008 9:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
I agree that Lewis needs to play now. It's too bad that we have to play our crappy players (Roberts, Durham, Aurilia) if we want to get rid of them, but you sleep in the bed that you sign to stupid deals.
And I like to believe that, when we don't break 3 million in attendance for the first time, it isn't because we don't have Bonds anymore. If people stay away from the park it should be known that it's because we have an uncompetitive team without any (good) exciting young (position) players.
by jasomack on Feb 13, 2008 4:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 13, 2008 5:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
Looking in my 2007 BP annual, Lewis is described to sound "like the profile of a fourth outfielder, doesn't it?" Schierholtz had a better description, though they noted "he looks bad in the outfield despite a good arm and decent speed," and noted his "ton of power".
His comparables included Aaron Rowand and three nobodies. Lewis's was worse: Termel Sledge and three nobodies (and really, Termel is a nobody too...).
Both of that would suggest that they think that Schierholtz is better than Lewis, but BP has never been good about one writer agreeing with what another writer wrote about the team or player.
In general, BP has always had it in for the Giants since my first BP annual. On one hand, they derided the Giants for drafting Matt Cain (Oh, you never draft high school pitchers in the first round said one analyst) then later another analyst crows about how can they give away picks when you can pick up Matt Cain with it. You can't have it both ways. I'm beginning to think that they are bitter A's fans, the way they go on and on about it while showing the A's the love.
I like reading their books but this bias against the Giants makes it hard for me to buy them, I mainly buy them for the continuity of my set now. But I might drop them next year, I'm really getting into all the books that Ron Shandler publishes every year.
Schierholtz is clearly better. He got up to AAA by age 23 and did well there, while Lewis was in A+ at age 23. Everyone raves about Lewis's athleticism, but as any 49er can attest, Renaldo Nehemiah may have been an excellent athlete, but horrible football player.
What makes it ever sorrier, most analysts (perhaps they took it from BA's description) stated the same story about how Lewis was a football player then started baseball full-time, giving Lewis the excuse for why he was so slow to develop with the Giants, then when Lewis comes up and says that baseball was his full-time passion growing up and that football was the sport he came late to. So the reason he doesn't play better defense seems to be, to me, that he's not really that good, he's been playing his whole life and still looks lost out there.
What Sheehan forgets is that Sabean took at team with the third worse number of losses (1996) in the history of the San Francisco Giants franchise and rebuilt it into a contending team that made the playoffs in 1997, 2000, 2002, and 2003, and was one final win away in 1998.
I like BP's other analysis but they have a clear blind spot regarding the Giants and Sabean in particular, so I wouldn't rely on anything they say about the team.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 13, 2008 5:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
They are what they are, another source of baseball information - and usually a pretty decent one - but that's it.
I'm not going to agree with analysts 100% of the time, but to chalk it up to some 'Anti-Giant' agenda is a little silly. The fact is, that for what BP values, making smart mostly informed decisions, the Giants haven't done so well in the last 3-4 years.
I think the fact that they've been tough on the Giants, I'm not even sure I agree with that, is more of an indictment about the trouble the franchise has been in the last few years than any hidden agenda.
But thats just me.
by xanthan on Feb 13, 2008 5:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by MidKnight on Feb 13, 2008 7:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
With the exception that he seems to overrate Freddie Lewis a bit, I think Sheehan's analysis isn't far off. I would just like it a lot better if it were WAY off base.
by sharksrog on Feb 13, 2008 11:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
I won't say that I've read everything they have written about the Giants because I don't subscribe but I read everything when it was free and I've read everythig they have written in their annual book, which I still purchase. I feel that there's a bias.
There are many ways to dissect what went wrong with our franchise over the years since the World Series. It is insulting to be told that because I view it as a bias, I'm "being silly". I know the difference between being tough and taking the extra dig because they felt like it.
Just because people don't share my opinion doesn't make them biased, otherwise I would say that the whole lot of you are biased, there have been plenty of people here and elsewhere over recent years who don't agree with what I say about the Giants. I have not once said that any of you are biased nor have I called any of your opposing opinions "silly".
But that's just me.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 15, 2008 7:13 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
What's silly is assuming I made a comment like this over superficial differences in opinions. I can accept being told that this is my opinion - that's all it has ever been - but being called silly is insulting.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 15, 2008 8:24 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
Sorry for the "silly" comment, I didn't mean to say that you are silly but that I think it's a little goofy to think that BP has it in for the Giants. Like a conspiracy theory or something.
I've been enjoying your take on the Giants since I found your blog, so don't take it the wrong way, I meant no offense even if it came off poorly.
I've honestly never encountered much Giants bashing on BP, they take shots at Sabean once in-awhile but most of the time I think the shots are deserved, if maybe a little crass. I think Sabean needs to change his style and reivent himself, I'm still unceratin if he's the right GM for a rebuild. Thats my opinion.
Point is, if Sabean had been doing a good job over the last 3-4 years, BP - and anyone else for that matter - would have little ammunition.
If you have specific examples of BP bashing the Giants unjustly, by all means share them, because I haven't seen much. I've never even read the so-called Cain bashing either. Doesn't mean it's not there, I just haven't seen it.
Again, sorry if I came off a little brash, no harm intended.
by xanthan on Feb 15, 2008 1:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Writers who don't like
Sheehan, btw, is a Yankee fanboy. Just read his gushing piece, when the Yanks signed Clemens at the start of the season.
Is BPro "biased"? Of course. The same way BA is "biased" It's biased towards a certain way of thinking about, and viewing baseball.
Yeah, there writers don't all agree with each other on specific players or details. Why is that a bad thing.
Fred Lewis walks, Nate Schierholtz, not so much. That is probably why Sheehan likes Lewis that much.
by rfloh on Feb 14, 2008 8:03 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Writers who don't like
It is one thing to not agree about a player, it is a whole different thing to have one writer espouse a certain way of thinking and decision making and then have another writer essentially refute that way of thinking and decision making. That's just sloppy writing on an organizational level.
Where I used to work, we espoused a certain way of thinking and decision making in all our reports, and we had peers who read our work to make sure that our clients are not confused by materially different advice. We were allowed differing opinions, it's pretty damn obvious that different writers will have different opinions on a player.
But if one of your writers say that it is very risky and highly ill-advised to select high school pitchers in the first round of the draft, you don't have another writer extol the wonders of selecting Matt Cain with your first round pick. You can't have it both ways, that's not differing opinions, that's materially different advice.
About Lewis vs. Schierholtz, as another poster here said to me in an e-mail, "I thought we stat geeks had moved beyond the "OBP = Teh Good" method of prospect analysis."
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Feb 15, 2008 8:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Writers who don't like
On the question of bias -- I think rfloh has nailed it: they're biased not against the Giants per se, or against Brian Sabean, but against the particular approach that Sabean takes in building his baseball teams. It's a weakness on their part (even though I basically agree with them), but it's a very different thing from being biased against a franchise.
Finally, you should consider that we as Giants fans are a hell of a lot more likely to be biased about the Giants than professional (or semipro) sportswriters are. Because of our emotional investment in the team, we are the least qualified judges when it comes to distinguishing "bias" from solid, strongly worded opinion.
by Evan on Feb 15, 2008 10:25 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
You prefer blind stubborn
by rfloh on Feb 15, 2008 9:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
But things have gotten better lately with Goldstein, Normandin, Dan Fox, etc.
by Evan on Feb 14, 2008 8:30 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
I have to admit, though, that I've never found Sheehan that impressive. I like many of the other authors much more.
by Dan from NM on Feb 16, 2008 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by rxmeister on Feb 14, 2008 8:07 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
The Detroit Tigers
For comparison, the Giants ERA+ in 2006 was 97.
They had 4 pitchers pitch more than 180 innings of better than 110 ERA+ each: Verlander, Rogers, Robertson, Bonderman.
Of the guys whom they used as their 5th starter: Mike Maroth had a 3.56 ERA as a starter in 48 IP, Wil Ledezma a 4.29 in 35 IP, Zach Miner a 5.31 ERA in 79IP. League average ERA in Detroit was 4.56.
Of their 5th starters, both Maroth and Ledezma were better than league average pitchers.
The typical #5 starter is well below league average.
So, of Detroit's starters in 2006, only 79 innings were below league average.
The pen was also very good.
Zumaya 83 innings of 235 ERA+. Jamie Walker, 162 ERA+ in 48 IP. Rodney, 130 ERA+ in 71 IP. Jones, 116 ERA+ in 64 IP.
The Tigers had phenomenal pitching and defense in 2006.
OBP is valuable. That "fancy statistical analysis" is based on actual real world results.
by rfloh on Feb 14, 2008 9:37 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
Anyways, the reason Sheehan is down on Nate is most likely due to every recent Giants hitting "prospect" putting up good numbers at Fresno and then doing nothing in the majors. He is just discounting what Fresno and the PCL does to hitters stats. Plus, how many successful hitters are there with that type of K:BB ratio? Personally, I think he is wrong about Nate, but he certainly has ground to stand on.
For those that are curious, here are the Pecota projections for Nate and Freddy:
Nate: .281/.321/.449
Freddy: .262/.342/.409
by marcello on Feb 14, 2008 10:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
Pedro Feliz is a free swinger-and leads the world in outs.
Bengie Molina is a free swinger-and leads the country in outs
Barry Bonds is not a free swinger-and is the best hitter of the modern era.
I kinda know what you're saying, but maybe a little too much generalization.
FWIW, I hate players who make lots of outs. Including sacrifice bunts, stupid baserunning, and swinging at balls out of the strike zone with less than two strikes or when ahead in the count.
Which goes to describe a lot of Giants; past, present and the near future.
by E Ticket on Feb 16, 2008 11:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Chopping at Slop and other Glop Nightly
by Moggeee on Feb 16, 2008 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
I looked back at the 2006 BP to see how they have projected the Tigers. I remember that I expected a lot more wins from them in 2006 than in 2005, and I suspected that was at least in part because of what I had read in BP.
Sure enough, BP mentioned that the Tigers didn't score as many runs in 2005 as their hitting indicated they should and that they didn't win as many games as their run differential indicated they should. Such teams are prime candidates for improvement (unless like this season's Giants, they rid themselves of their only really good hitter).
BP also indicated that in order to win, the Tigers would need to do so on the backs of their pitching. And as was pointed out in another post, the Tigers went on to fashion the AL's top ERA in 2006.
It seems to me that people just LOVE to criticize the so-called "experts." Heck, I criticize Brian Sabean a lot, and he's probably an average GM (or at least close to it). Brian actually used to be one of the best, but I fear the game has passed him by (much like Boly on our other board).
Brian made a series of generally REALLY good trades through the end of the 2002 season. Now his problem is that he doesn't have much to trade that he can AFFORD to trade. He also seems to be being hurt by other GM's being able to read the tea leaves better than he can.
As you know, I called for the Giants to trade Noah Lowry when he started off successfully last season. My sense is that Brian overvalued Noah at the trade deadline. Now he is finding that Noah's value may never be higher than it was through the trading deadline.
Brian is no dummy. That said, I suspect some of us right here at the McCovey Chronicles have been more right about the deals and free agent signings made by Brian since the 2002 World Series than he has been.
Brian probably was a bit lucky through the end of the 2002 season. He probably has been a bit unlucky since then. I would evaluate him as in the vast middle ground of GM's over his career with the Giants, but the past five years he seems to have suffered both from bad luck and an inability to grow as much as other GM's around him.
Ironically, had Brian hired someone from BP as a consultant and learned from said BP person, he probably would be a better GM today. BP's analysis isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Brian Sabean's, perhaps, is.
by sharksrog on Feb 16, 2008 12:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: B.P.'s Giants' Spring Training Preview
by Dan from NM on Feb 16, 2008 8:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"better at running a contender"?
I'm better at running a contender too, fercrissake.
by delorean on Feb 15, 2008 4:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: "better at running a contender"?
by sharksrog on Feb 16, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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